Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Luigi's lack of solid approach options seem to be that much of a problem.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You should read what some of the DMC, Zelda,

First of all im cutting in to say Twilight Princess sucks.

Adjusting to Dabuz's Rosalina "lets you combat him on an even playing field," but Dabuz can adjust back to tilt it back in his favor. A great defensive player is at the same level of adaptation as a great offensive player. It just depends on the roles and the options.

Oh man I might take heat but...I don't think Dabuz's play was as strong as Abadangos
Rosalina's toolkit inherently gave him an option that Abadango was going to have to figure out, and he *was* figuring it out.
Honestly that game might of been completely different with two grabs from Pac-man despite his lag, just because of in hindsight what Dabuz chose to use as a defensive option after a gravitational pull commonly being shield.
But that's probably why I enjoyed that match, the areas both of them had to improve, despite a great showing from both. They'll keep with it and get more monstrous. A lot of people can't deal with their games right now, so with all that area to go even further, next year should be really good.

 

[Asdioh]

It's silly for you guys to say Luma gets free hits when Rosalina gets hit. This isn't some hidden mechanic that activates at random. Do you guys even understand in what situations Luma can act and how her priority works? There are tons of ways to get around it. Dabuz outplayed everyone in this regard.

I don't understand it fully actually, can you explain?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't understand it fully actually, can you explain?

To be honest, if what he says is true about us being able to get around it and people not doing it. I wouldn't say it's more of dabuz outplaying but more of just abusing the fact people are bad/haven't figured out how to deal with whatever he's talking about.

Not saying abusing that is a "bad" thing, kinda like Diddy uair spam being used a bunch ovo

 

[Yonder]

So...what's the deal with Luigi's absence from top 8. I was expecting him to finally transition from anti-meta to meta and Pac-Man to the new anti-meta by the time APEX was over.

To be fair, top 16 is still very formidable. All the characters in the top 16 are ones I can say will be common tourney sights.

 

[Ffamran]

Seriously guys and girls, talk about the character and the player. Don't go around and say, "Oh, Dabuz should be doing this...", instead talk about how Rosalina could be an aggressive fighter or how her MU is against Diddy. Like I said before, if you want to talk about play styles and such, then go make another thread or look for a thread on play styles. If you want to argue with each other, then go PM each other.

This, I repeat once more, is the Character Competitive Impressions thread. You're here to discuss, argue, and give input on characters' competitive standings, improvements, weaknesses, advantages and such. Stop talking about other stuff unless you can connect it to the topic.

Don't cross the line. You all know what happens when you cross the line. He who dares won't be winning here.

 

[mimgrim]

Man, reading the last few pages has been very disappointing. I might not have been able to watch any of Smash 4 Apex yet but reading all the hate against campy/defensive/zoning play makes me groan internally. I personally prefer watching the more campy/defensive matches in Smash myself. But that's because I understand just how intense it actually is to try and play that way and keep on playing that and staying consistent with it. It is hard, especially against someone who knows how to handle it. There is a lot of little intricacies going on.

Le sigh.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Just popping in to say that I'll lend a helping hand to Ffamran, IsmaR, and any other mods itt in keeping it in check too

No but seriously guys, this thread is for discussing the impact on the metagame and competitive merit of characters. It is NOT a thread for Melee vs Smash 4 ****flinging. It is NOT a thread for rushdown v campy/zoning ****flinging. In short, it is NOT a thread for pointing fingers at each other and yelling "you're the cancer that's killing smash!"

Let's not be silly now

 

[Pyr]

I have a question for everyone here: Out of the high-performing characters we've seen at Apex and other tournaments, which ones benefit more from a defensive use of their options rather then an offensive use, and the reverse?

I think it's a useful conversation to have and it might shed some light on what we can expect overall.

 

[DanGR]

I don't understand it fully actually, can you explain?

I won't elaborate too much, but here are the basics of when Luma can act.

Luma will respond to inputs while Rosalina is grabbed or beforehand, but not while being thrown.
Following being thrown (or hit), Luma can act just before Rosalina can airdodge, after hitstun.

So attacks that don't send Rosalina very far are vulnerable to Luma retaliation. Depending on how long your throw animation takes to end, there's a gap between throwing an opponent and Luma acting that can be used to hit Luma away and make your life way easier for 13 seconds.
---
As far as priority goes, basically Luma's attacks will always clash cancel against other hitboxes unless they do 8% more damage than Luma's attack, in which case they'll knock Luma away if they hit his hurtbox.

 

[dragontamer]

While Abadango's PacMan is strictly superior to mine, I can't help but wonder what Fox-trot Stutter-step FSmash would do to his Bell hit-confirm game. (Do note how many times Abadango hit with the Bell today, and only got a SH Nair off of it. Imagine if it was a straight KO from stutter-step FSmash. IMAGINE!!)

Even the best players in Apex have a way to go before they stop improving, the skill ceiling is real folks.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No but seriously guys, this thread is for discussing the impact on the metagame and competitive merit of characters. It is NOT a thread for Melee vs Smash 4 ****flinging. It is NOT a thread for rushdown v campy/zoning ****flinging. In short, it is NOT a thread for pointing fingers at each other and yelling "you're the cancer that's killing smash!"

Let's not be silly now

I mean, this is a thread with almost 15k posts in less than 4 months. There's been a lot more off topic discussions in here where it wasn't told to be toned a little or very little warnings thrown out then right now.
If you guys want to moderate it better (which you are now because apex weekend = even more activity and **** flinging) then come here more often other than ffam conda Hero mystic san. etc.

Otherwise the only problems I actually see is the smash 4 vs melee debate as if it's the old brawl melee arguments again.
There's actually been some more praise for dabuz's playstyle/timing out of pac-man over calling it "cancer" which I don't see that word used anywhere and honestly I think talking about his playstyle and rosalina is part of the whole Competitive merit of characters.
Since we're talking about her defensive options and zoning n such

Trying to say watch the thread more and punish more often if higher ups rly care.

 

[Ffamran]

I have a question for everyone here: Out of the high-performing characters we've seen at Apex and other tournaments, which ones benefit more from a defensive use of their options rather then an offensive use, and the reverse?

I think it's a useful conversation to have and it might shed some light on what we can expect overall.

Ganondorf, Rosalina & Luma, and Duck Hunt come to mind. Maybe Greninja, Villager, Pac-Man, Zelda, Mega Man, Marth, Link, Toon Link, and Falco. I'd add Diddy too since Diddy can punish hard, but I'm not sure.

Edit: That's if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I have a lot of things to say about Rosalina & Luma and the character's place in the metagame.

Rosalina isn't nearly as campy of a character as people are now convinced she is. The thing is that she's extremely campy in a few specific match ups. And those are basically the projectile-centric characters like Pac Man, Duck Hunt, and Villager... and Sonic. Rosalina can't rush in against Sonic, at all. But what she can do is react to Sonic very effectively if she sets up camp. Frankly, I think this is true for a lot of characters against Sonic, but Rosalina just accentuates that.

So for people saying Rosa is just the most campy character in Smash 4..... she's really not. Some characters are campy by default, in every match up. Rosa is campy in like less than 15% of her match ups. No, she's not a rush-down hyper offensive character like most of the popular characters, but I wouldn't call her campy either. She's someone who has a mix of good offensive and defensive options, but often playing aggressively is indeed the best choice for her. But because Rosa had back-to-back match ups in which being defensive is the best decision for her, Rosa (and even more unfairly Dabuz) take so much crap from the Smash scene.

Oh yeah, Rosa has to camp when Luma dies... that's definitely true. But what else is a Rosa main to do when they're without their sword and their shield?

Another observation... I was at Apex, and I watched Dabuz play several games. One thing I noticed is how much more slowly and deliberately he moves his fingers around his controller. I would describe it as a very quiet controller. I'm not sure how much of this is Dabuz and how much of this is Rosalina, but it was noticeable. The reason I find this interesting is because I also main Rosa, and I also have a quiet controller.

I truly believe RosaLuma has a huge advantage against a huge portion of the cast in this game, but she's being underutilized by top players because people simply aren't interested in learning her. There are a lot of people who could do serious damage if they added Rosa to their arsenal of characters... but very very few competitive Smashers have bothered with Rosa to this point.

But I do think Rosalina has a tough time with Diddy, which is obviously tough in a Diddy-centric meta, so it might be a good idea to have a Diddy counter as a Rosalina main (as Dabuz uses Olimar). Dabuz's experience at Apex, perhaps not so coincidentally, matches my own experience: Rosalina can handle Sheik just fine, but has a tough time with Diddy because Diddy punishes Rosa too hard when she's put on the defensive, and Diddy can get very early KOs against Rosa. It might even be fair to compare Rosa to Ice Climbers, not because they have similar playstyles, but because she's a top tier character who will destroy much of the metagame, but gets taken down by the #1 character.

I finished 4th in my pool at Apex (out of 13), so my tournament didn't last all that long, but I had a lot of friendlies against a lot of good players, and I won the good majority of my games. And I'm someone who has only been playing Smash competitively for 3 months. I really don't think I would be able to do this if Rosalina & Luma were not in the game.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Abadango seriously needed to go in more. Pac's close combat game isn't terrible at all. Separate RosaLuma with the hydrant and just try to go to town on her.

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, Rosalina does struggle with Diddy. This wasn't the case pre-patch; Rosalina had better tools for dealing with Diddy, most notably a better n-air. Now, though, even without using banana it's just too easy for Diddy to get in and pressure Rosalina, and the reward that he gets for going in is disproportionate to the effort Rosalina has to make to keep him out.

I think that one takeaway from this tournament is that Diddys haven't been using up-throw properly (or at all), and the more they use this move the better Diddy will get. It can trick your opponent into eating a KO from up-air, and does 3% more than d-throw, which matters since throws are the source of much of Diddy's damage (and his best response to a whiffed move is grab).

I finished 4th in my pool at Apex (out of 13), so my tournament didn't last all that long, but I had a lot of friendlies against a lot of good players, and I won the good majority of my games. And I'm someone who has only been playing Smash competitively for 3 months. I really don't think I would be able to do this if Rosalina & Luma were not in the game.

This is unrelated, but I also just want to say good for you, going to tournaments and playing people to get better, despite being new to the scene. That's the way to get better and enjoy this game. A lot of new players get nervous or discouraged. Attitudes like yours are what I like to see.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Let's just stray away from Sm4sh vs Melee vs Brawl debates. They never do much good, people get angry, and everything just goes to ****.

 

[Nocally]

I think that one takeaway from this tournament is that Diddys haven't been using up-throw properly (or at all), and the more they use this move the better Diddy will get. It can trick your opponent into eating a KO from up-air, and does 3% more than d-throw, which matters since throws are the source of much of Diddy's damage (and his best response to a whiffed move is grab).

.

I see the same thing with people who plays Pikachu, they often go for the up-throw (only 4%) without getting follow-ups, instead of going for a more rewarding throw. Mixing up is good.

 

[|RK|]

What was the top 16, character-wise?

 

[thehard]

1. ZeRo (Diddy Kong)
2. XFIRE Dabuz (Olimar, Rosalina & Luma),
3. LLL Mr. R (Sheik, Captain Falcon),
4. 6WX (Sonic)
5. DtN | Nietono (Sheik)
5. MVG | Mew2King (Diddy Kong)
7. Abadango (Pac-Man)
7. CT | MVD (Duck Hunt, Little Mac),
9. AeroLink (Diddy Kong, Palutena),
9. LoF NAKAT (Fox)
9. Nairo (Pit, Robin),
9. VGBC | aMSa (Greninja)
13. Boreal_Ally (Mario)
13. DA Jtails (Diddy Kong)
13. FALSE (Luigi, Sheik),
13. NinjaLink (Mega Man)

 

[|RK|]

1. ZeRo (Diddy Kong)
2. XFIRE Dabuz (Olimar, Rosalina & Luma),
3. LLL Mr. R (Sheik, Captain Falcon),
4. 6WX (Sonic)
5. DtN | Nietono (Sheik)
5. MVG | Mew2King (Diddy Kong)
7. Abadango (Pac-Man)
7. CT | MVD (Duck Hunt, Little Mac),
9. AeroLink (Diddy Kong, Palutena),
9. LoF NAKAT (Fox)
9. Nairo (Pit, Robin),
9. VGBC | aMSa (Greninja)
13. Boreal_Ally (Mario)
13. DA Jtails (Diddy Kong)
13. FALSE (Luigi, Sheik),
13. NinjaLink (Mega Man)

That's pretty good diversity? Anyone wanna talk about DHD/Little Mac?

 

[Luigisama]

So...what's the deal with Luigi's absence from top 8. I was expecting him to finally transition from anti-meta to meta and Pac-Man to the new anti-meta by the time APEX was over.

Let me explain since I was at apex.

Thunderstorm got 1st seed beating meekspeedy, Boss got 1st seed beating Greward (Megaman), Mr.concon got 2nd seed, Jmiller got 1st seed, and Belac got 1st seed.

Okay round 2 and so there was this genius(sarcasm) idea to put Boss, Thunderstorm, and Jmiller in the same pool. Jmiller and thunderstorme played and Boss lost to Amsa using greninja(sheik with shuriken). Then Jmiller at some point played Amsa and lost. As you can see the luigis got screwed over.

As for concon and Belac they lost in their r2 pools.

Also just to add luigi is an amazing character with a great weakness his recovery. Even jump up b at the bottom of a stage is bad. You can trump luigi or just stage spike him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yikes what the hell did i miss that mod's are in *hard core* mode.

on topic i really enjoyed apex this year. the diverstiy was great. and definitly so new tech being showed off. and alot less supposed top teirs dominating (not to say that they were not there i was just pleasently surpised by a non shiek/diddy only top 8)

now im really happy 2 see said diversity and some people really pulling through with character like DHD little mac pacman and olimar. Its is just proof of how little this meta is developed and how little we actually know. hell there was a bowser in top 30! thats Amazing! And he showed just how dangerous it can be 2 approach bowser in the first placewith impressive powershielding punishes. (woops dragging off) All this apex has done was get me Pumped Iv been labbing all today while watching the stream. (T.T im sad i could not make it. my flight was ..well. u know) Also by the way. i absolutly loved dabuz's play today with olimar it was so great seeing him and was fantastic showing off a very firm defensive play. (the twitch chat was disgusting though, but ill let it slide since they were upset about melee running late. i would have been upset too if smash 4 was.) ZeRo's pulled a firm win as expected but wow was he great. i mean i was really engorsed by his play it was some fantasic stuff. ZeRo showed us he really understands this game. And it gets me pumped 2 start theory crafting counter strategies im already building a few with samus and pit.

also 6wx sonic? brilliant and well coordinated. somthing that was really shown by higher level players. it was great 2 see so much pressure being placed in combat. dabuz and ZeRo really defined this in my opinion. it was such an awsome show. and all it did was give me hope. and thrill too of course. God i love this game.

P.S im not really aware of what was happening before this page and not that i really care. but if im deducing what was on this page correctly people seemed upset that a campy playstlye got someone some where? and some how turned into melee v brawl v smash 4? And if thats the case im really disapointed. Here i was singing praise of our community working together and saving apex and making it wonderfull. all to turn there back against each other over somthing like this? People need to reread the front page of this site. ill quote it for those to lazy. "Smashboards Home of The Smash Community" ......"THE SMASH" not the melee, not the brawl, not the smash 4, and not the 64 we are the smash community and we welcome ALL smashers. Offensive or defensive, Casual or Competitve, we are a united community. If for some reason someone out there is tourtured by the idea of someone liking one game over another? This is not the place for you to blow your torment. And frankly if this is the case im just dissapointed that a fellow smasher would want to do that. And if this is not the case i wasted my time typing because you guys lived up to the expectation's of being a fellow smasher and beloved member of SmashBoards. This is you home.

 

[Thinkaman]

I will say that 6WX's Sonic was exciting to watch for a change. I have never thought this previously about a Sonic, including his, but it's true.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I didn't watch all the matches but I do not believe MVD won any matches with little mac, similar to having no idea if Mr. R won anything with c.falcon and alsm with palutena (since he's a diddy kong main and only way he'd use her is to make it seem like he seconds her still against people he knows he can win with her)

 

[webbedspace]

I didn't watch all the matches but I do not believe MVD won any matches with little mac, similar to having no idea if Mr. R won anything with c.falcon and alsm with palutena (since he's a diddy kong main and only way he'd use her is to make it seem like he seconds her still against people he knows he can win with her)

You will believe a man can fly punch a frog.

 

[Morbi]

I will say that 6WX's Sonic was exciting to watch for a change. I have never thought this previously about a Sonic, including his, but it's true.

I agree, I thought that Sonic would struggle in the Duck Hunt Dog match-up. Traditionally pure-zoning characters give rush-down characters a little bit of trouble (until they are able to get in, that is) as they make the approach... difficult. However, 6WX's Sonic was able to approach seemingly fine. I am not sure if Sonic does well in the match-up or if 6WX was just the better player. If I recall correctly, he was pacing his game quite well. He would calm down and just wait a couple of seconds to regain his composure, and he did not needless rush into walls of projectiles. Basically, he was waiting for optimal openings.

No idea, I do not know a lot about Duck Hunt and MVD did not give me much to work with.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic is always fun to watch! I honestly have no idea why people find him boring. Different mindsets I suppose? I love baits and punishes and reads. That stuff is gold.

Also sorry to bring the sm4sh/melee thing back up but I do want to apologize to the portion of the melee community that is supportive of non-melee games and the smash community in general. Probably shouldn't have just said melee community but I'm at work and it was considerably faster. I thought context would cover it for me. Stay classy.

 

[Thinkaman]

Not to digress, but I make it a very deliberate point to never identify anyone as "melee players" unless I am literally referring to "people who have played melee competitively at any point in time, including myself."

Melee was and is a great game. The improvements in Brawl and Smash 4 do not negate that.



Anyway, we've certainly gained a lot of character data today. Personally? I'm still unconvinced that Duck Hunt without zigzag can is truly viable. MVD was working twice as hard to make kills happen, in every sense, and it wasn't ultimately paying off.

Meanwhile, where the hell are Luigi, Pikachu, and Yoshi?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Luigisama said that cause of poor apex seeding (as per usual for most national tournaments these days) they all took each other out or just deathpools.
Pikachu only rep is ESAM (cudn't go because gf sick) and NAKAT (who mains fox/ness mostly yet oddly didn't use any pika after testing it against ally in a recent tournament)
While Yoshi mains simply don't have the $300+ to toss away to enter a tournament and hopefully get out of round 1 pools. From what we saw there was only 3 and all of em are meh, robotnik seel(?) and Sky.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meh. I'm just happy Sheik had strong representation. I will pick False's brain sometime next week.

 

[outfoxd]

Not to digress, but I make it a very deliberate point to never identify anyone as "melee players" unless I am literally referring to "people who have played melee competitively at any point in time, including myself."

Melee was and is a great game. The improvements in Brawl and Smash 4 do not negate that.



Anyway, we've certainly gained a lot of character data today. Personally? I'm still unconvinced that Duck Hunt without zigzag can is truly viable. MVD was working twice as hard to make kills happen, in every sense, and it wasn't ultimately paying off.

Meanwhile, where the hell are Luigi, Pikachu, and Yoshi?

Dog may well take more time. I didn't get to watch MVB and I'm still newusht myself, but it feels like there should be some hybrid zoning/offensive pressure game he needs to develop. He's awful at camping, for one thing.

 

[Luigisama]

Luigisama said that cause of poor apex seeding (as per usual for most national tournaments these days) they all took each other out or just deathpools.
Pikachu only rep is ESAM (cudn't go because gf sick) and NAKAT (who mains fox/ness mostly yet oddly didn't use any pika after testing it against ally in a recent tournament)
While Yoshi mains simply don't have the $300+ to toss away to enter a tournament and hopefully get out of round 1 pools. From what we saw there was only 3 and all of em are meh, robotnik seel(?) and Sky.

That and lol as annoying as yoshi is. The only real good one was Raptor and I am not being biased. The other pools were really free and the other yoshis weren't extradionary and have no wins to back up their peformance. Raptor came close to beating Greward's megaman, but lost. Interesting though since just from playing both characters I would assume yoshi has frame advatage over megaman.

On a side note and I don't mean to make apex look like a bad event, but in r2 pools meekspeedy and static manny were in the same pool so a sonic ditto took place. Less sonic rep in top 16.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh raptor actually went? It'd be nice if he like
told us yoshi mains lol

People have just been ragging on apex since the no PM thing anyways, and with the most recent news with staff taking seats from people during top 8 melee I believe, the APEX/staff itself just looking more and more trash by the week.

 

[Tristan_win]

Meh. I'm just happy Sheik had strong representation. I will pick False's brain sometime next week.

Not a bad idea False is not only a outstanding player but I think he's currently 1-2+ months ahead of the curve of Sheik current meta. If you watch his matches and Mr. R it's pretty obvious they know the percents when fair into BF will work as out of the entire stream tournament out of the two of them they only missed once. Although I didn't watch doubles. You can also tell they would purposely place themselves for the option of aerial needles into BF. Mr. R also used weak nair into BF on multiple occasions and even got some kills with it. These were just some of the things I noticed, there's possibly a ton of goodies hidden within their playstyles just waiting to be mimic.

: 3 They still got nothing on @RyokoYaksa though who at one point in Brawl meta was a year ahead of everyone. ~sighs~ Such a great mind.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You know guys I just remembered.
ZSS wasn't in top 16 either.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

You know guys I just remembered.
ZSS wasn't in top 16 either.

Hmm... Most suspicious indeed! It could have gone differently if top 32 was included

 

[RESET Vao]

You know guys I just remembered.
ZSS wasn't in top 16 either.

Yun never yielded results in early builds of USF4. Just saiyan. Sometimes a character IS good but nobody good is playing it. That really messes with some people's perspective of a "tier list". Same when someone does well with a character who isn't so good. I still think ZSS is among the best in the game on paper and that no players are the absolute top are playing her, sheer coincidence.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yun never yielded results in early builds of USF4. Just saiyan. Sometimes a character IS good but nobody good is playing it. That really messes with some people's perspective of a "tier list". Same when someone does well with a character who isn't so good. I still think ZSS is among the best in the game on paper and that no players are the absolute top are playing her, sheer coincidence.

I'm not saying she isn't good.

The fact ESAM didn't go most likely means Nick riddle didn't.
Choco got pool ***** by apex so we didn't get to see him represent.

 

[webbedspace]

You know guys I just remembered.
ZSS wasn't in top 16 either.

Nairo declined to unleash his. That's all.