Character Competitive Impressions

[Arcadenik]

Nintendo: Oh, look at these top 16 characters! Let's nerf them to even the battle field!
Greninja and Rosalina mains: ...

I literally can't wait for the amount of salt if Nintendo nerfs things based on this tournament lmao.

I hope not... DHD does not need to be nerfed. It is impressive that someone as underutilized as DHD even made it to top 8 at all. Nintendo needs to balance everyone, not buff and nerf everyone willy nilly.

 

[Minordeth]

I think what people mean is that he only goes in when Luma is attached and able to provide ridiculous hitbox coverage and clashing opportunities. Otherwise, he sits back. A valid strategy, and one that people have a right to find boring. But it still takes a lot of skill to go up against such good rushdown players while playing zoning. Rosalina definitely makes the job easier, as her forgiving hitboxes, disjoints, and luma allow for things no other character can do against rushdown characters.

Sure, which is the defensive bit I mentioned. But he will go for grabs or tilts without Luma. He may not go as hard without the coverage safety, but I can't blame him. I think people confuse zoning and defensive play with straight camping. I'm objecting to the latter.

I enjoy watching Dabuz, if only because he provides a very deliberate playstyle. It's as close as we are going to get to a top-level Ganon player at this point, so I'm content with it.

 

[Balgorxz]

Man if Nintendo nerfs Greninja again I can't see it being anything other than them hating the character.

he is not used that much in japan anymore so I doubt it, diddy will probably get damage nerfs and some tweaks on everyone here and there

 

[Dooms]

More commenting on the issues with Dabuzs style. It's inherently unspectator friendly.

Why does spectator friendly matter, though? He's playing to win, not to make the people that are watching/judging him happy. He's always played with this style, and it works REALLY well for him.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hope not... DHD does not need to be nerfed. It is impressive that someone as underutilized as DHD even made it to top 8 at all. Nintendo needs to balance everyone, not buff and nerf everyone willy nilly.

In the event that Nintendo takes the results into account for a future patch, I have faith that they won't blindly go by the rankings. The balance team seems to generally know what they're doing.

 

[Dooms]

I hope not... DHD does not need to be nerfed. It is impressive that someone as underutilized as DHD even made it to top 8 at all. Nintendo needs to balance everyone, not buff and nerf everyone willy nilly.

>one DHD in top 120-whatever
>"DHD TOP 8 LETS NERF HIM!"

I'd literally die.

 

[deepseadiva]

Cuz this is ComplainBoards.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Back then people believed Rosalina was the strongest character in the game until she was nerfed, and people did not believe Diddy was the strongest character in the game until v1.04 came out.

Diddy was already believed top tier, but preferred because his playstyle suits the whims of most more then Rosa. Rosa's unlikely to ever gain respect regardless of the decision making involved in Dabuz action just by the nature of the general community that plays this game.

Zoners in general don't get their dues in Smash. If you don't run a 3-6 hit combo/string, you aren't "hype".

 

[Minordeth]

I'd rather see other characters get buffed than Diddy get nerfed. But patching talk is essentially wishful thinking. Nintendo isn't Riot. The best we can do to deal with this game, balance-wise, is play with customs.

 

[outfoxd]

Why does spectator friendly matter, though? He's playing to win, not to make the people that are watching/judging him happy. He's always played with this style, and it works REALLY well for him.

Oh. I don't mind. I enjoyed watching it. He's just gonna have to deal with being a lightning rod for his style. I think a big issue is it represents a validation of a play style and tactics a lotta people hate, and a potential ugly shift in future play.

Also, I play some of the offending characters, so I may be biased.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Zoners in general don't get their dues in Smash.

Thank you based Brawl[/sarcasm]

 

[HeavyLobster]

The only characters that could use nerfs right now would be Diddy, Sheik, and maybe Sonic, and those nerfs don't need to be too severe. There are a good number of characters that could use buffs and/or customs being legalized to vault them to viability. Actually customs are probably the biggest thing that could increase character diversity, as well as archetype diversity. Heavies in particular are much more viable with customs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Diddy was already believed top tier, but preferred because his playstyle suits the whims of most more then Rosa. Rosa's unlikely to ever gain respect regardless of the decision making involved in Dabuz action just by the nature of the general community that plays this game.

Zoners in general don't get their dues in Smash.

And we shall grow ever stronger from their salty tears.

Relevant.

Although I'm honestly surprised he managed to clutch a win from M2K with Olimar. Didn't see that coming.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't think your average fighting game player is going to gravitate towards defensive characters. Rosalina is not very accessible, and probably harder to get to a competitive level than a Sheik or Diddy. Same goes for Robin and other power-zoners.

 

[FullMoon]

I honestly don't take much issue with Dabuz and his Rosalina. Then again I'm fairly laid-back and don't really care about zoning so...

Anyway, I'll be signing off now. I'm expecting to be met by like, ten news pages in this thread when I return in the morning considering how quickly the posts are popping up.

 

[HeroMystic]

Thank you based Brawl[/sarcasm]

This may just be sarcasm, but I would say in Brawl that people were humbly more accepting of zoners. It's actually Melee that causes such huge uproar against zoners. The amount of destruction spectators makes is uncanny.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Just to ask, isn't there a rumor that we were supposed to get a announcement from Nintendo? Like a Mewtwo trailer or something?

 

[NairWizard]

Zero is the best.

But part of being the best is recognizing the best chars.

You think he could have won Apex with Game & Watch?

Be serious.

He sure as heck could have won with another strong character, like Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Pikachu, or Ness, given the same amount of dedication and effort as he put into Diddy.

 

[FlareHabanero]

This may just be sarcasm, but I would say in Brawl that people were humbly more accepting of zoners. It's actually Melee that causes such huge uproar against zoners. The amount of destruction spectators makes is uncanny.

I mainly pointed out at Brawl because I think Brawl game a bad image with defensive play. Being forced to play defensively with no sense of reward for doing so gave people the wrong impression that defense is not healthy and unnatural, when in reality it is just as important as offense.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This may just be sarcasm, but I would say in Brawl that people were humbly more accepting of zoners. It's actually Melee that causes such huge uproar against zoners. The amount of destruction spectators makes is uncanny.

In my amateur armchair opinion I think this may be partially due to Melee players and/or fans becoming rather entrenched in their comfort zone and unwilling to branch out.

(Not intended to call anyone out, just my impression.)

 

[thehard]

Esam and Prog are pretty mad on Twitter right now at Melee > Smash 4 disrespect. I don't blame them at all, every Smash website I've gone on has a war going on. Sad.

 

[Nysyr]

I mean if you wanna' watch a zoning war with just Walls of hitboxes and little approaching lest the player become bored or afraid of their image, more power to you.

It makes for awful spectating, and doesn't bring in views. Might as well go spectate a chess game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

He sure as heck could have won with another strong character, like Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Pikachu, or Ness, given the same amount of dedication and effort as he put into Diddy.

Yeah, but that kind of domination only happens when you've got the best player mastering the best character. No need to make things harder than they need to be.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean if you wanna' watch a zoning war with just Walls of hitboxes and little approaching lest the player become bored or afraid of their image, more power to you.

It makes for awful spectating, and doesn't bring in views. Might as well go spectate a chess game.

So play to win, unless doing so is boring to watch, in which case don't?

 

[HeroMystic]

I mainly pointed out at Brawl because I think Brawl game a bad image with defensive play. Being forced to play defensively with no sense of reward for doing so gave people the wrong impression that defense is not healthy and unnatural, when in reality it is just as important as offense.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. Brawl certainly did give a bad image of defensive play due to it's mechanics, and modding the game into Project M (which is waaaay more offensive than Melee) only made that image worse. I can only hope we as a community can mature.

 

[NairWizard]

Did the Mewtwo trailer actually happen by the way? Was there an announcement?

 

[Nysyr]

So play to win, unless doing so is boring to watch, in which case don't?

By that logic, you'd enjoy spectating Blood DK 2's in WoW just because they are playing to win lol.

The Dabuz hate is basically because his playstyle gives fuel to melee players to trash on Sm4sh. Like, everything boring with the game in his character selection lol.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Esam and Prog are pretty mad on Twitter right now at Melee > Smash 4 disrespect. I don't blame them at all, every Smash website I've gone on has a war going on. Sad.

This is really stupid. I'm having fun watching both Smash 4 and Melee, and even a bit of Smash 64. Why does this need to be a flame war? The Smash community is big enough for multiple games to thrive, and it doesn't need to be an either/or thing.

 

[Conda]

I'd like to stress -


The intricacies of how brackets progress down to the final grand finals match is very intricate, and those who got 8th place should be very proud. It doesn't mean they 'couldn't' win. It means they didn't win, and they gotta try harder next time to make their victory more assured. That is how tournaments work. It's an inherently flawed structure, but one that accepts the fact that each tournaments isn't the "Be All End All."

Tournament results, at least within the top 100, aren't in order of character 'viability' or 'effectiveness'. Which we all know, but sometimes our brains fool us into thinking we've got some sort of new 'scientific research' to pick apart and apply too much value to. Players can lose a set for a number of different reasons, many independent of their character choice. Just because a players using X character didn't break top 50, doesn't mean that character CANNOT break top 50.

Diddy won, but that doesn't mean Olimar or Greninja or DK can't win the next big tournament. It's all up to the players and how far they can push their characters. But what I want to stress is that it's not always ALL about the characters these players choose, but how they personally play against their opponents.

Always catch yourself if you find your mind attaching too much value to placements, and stop yourself from drawing hasty conclusions on anything just from one data source. We've got insight into new characters that are tournament viable. It's the same as a few weeks ago when Luigi started placing. It's exciting! But nothing is defined yet.

Look at melee - Yoshi in top 8. Embrace the chaos.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Did the Mewtwo trailer actually happen by the way? Was there an announcement?

I asked this too. I heard massive hype when D1 was on stage! Not sure!

 

[Ffamran]

I think you guys and gals should stop talking about people's play styles unless they directly apply to a character, like, Duck Hunt camping gives them damage, but can't really do much to get a kill without Can or something. Otherwise, if you want to argue, take it to a PM or hell, make a thread about play styles and which is boring, dirty, honorable, fun, or whatnot. This is a thread about Character Competitive Impressions if the title slips your mind.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

By that logic, you'd enjoy spectating Blood DK 2's in WoW just because they are playing to win lol.

The Dabuz hate is basically because his playstyle gives fuel to melee players to trash on Sm4sh. Like, everything boring with the game in his character selection lol.

The thing is that "boring" is subjective. I love watching Dabuz because I use Rosalina too and I learn stuff from it. You're free to dislike the character and/or their playstyle, but some of the venom I've seen aimed at him after these matches makes me question where everyone's priorities really are.

EDIT: @ Ffamran (that was hard to spell out, I thought that second "f" was an "l" for the longest time) Noted.

 

[Gawain]

I'm laughing at the people trying to smack talk rush down in defense of defensive play. Give me a break. You're acting like spectatorship doesn't matter at all? You're seriously fooling yourself if you subscribe to that belief. People want to watch what they find fun. What the majority wants to watch is what will live longest and what will make the most money. There's a reason Melee is still number 1 and Brawl has faded tremendously. People like rushdown because it's fun to play AND watch, it's thought provoking and requires quick and consistent technical precision. It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with people in denial about what the community wants to see.

And it's not just Smash either. This is true in any community. Play like Dabuz and the overall reaction to it emphasizes this point. So stop trying to deny it and act like it's a good thing to have ridiculously long defensive games. It's just not.

 

[Conda]

I think people dislike watching Rosalina, likely has nothing to do with Dabuz. Even if he double jumps + airdodge spams to buy time pretty often, that's not unviable.

The issue is when Luma gets a hit to punish perfectly fine skilled plays/decisions by skilled opponents. And it happens 'just because', and no other character has that sort of stuff working in their favour and offering a constant 'positive state' that can't be shaken for more than 13 seconds. It's free results for Rosa during a match, which often leads to kills.

Chat/audiences consistently don't enjoy seeing it. Rosalina players will have to accept this.

 

[Gawain]

I think people dislike watching Rosalina, likely has nothing to do with Dabuz. Even if he double jumps + airdodge spams to buy time pretty often, that's not unviable.

The issue is when Luma gets a hit to punish perfectly fine skilled plays/decisions by skilled opponents. And it happens 'just because', and no other character has that sort of stuff happening for free to them during matches. It's free payback for Rosa, and chat/audiences consistently don't enjoy seeing it. Rosalina players will have to accept this.

Or just play a character that doesn't have easy "get out of jail free" cards. Or Nintendo could fix it. Honestly Luma shouldn't be able to do anything when Rosalina is in hitstun/tumble. It's a pretty mindless mechanic if you ask me.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I'm laughing at the people trying to smack talk rush down in defense of defensive play. Give me a break. You're acting like spectatorship doesn't matter at all? You're seriously fooling yourself if you subscribe to that belief. People want to watch what they find fun. What the majority wants to watch is what will live longest and what will make the most money. There's a reason Melee is still number 1 and Brawl has faded tremendously. People like rushdown because it's fun to play AND watch, it's thought provoking and requires quick and consistent technical precision. It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with people in denial about what the community wants to see.

And it's not just Smash either. This is true in any community. Play like Dabuz and the overall reaction to it emphasizes this point. So stop trying to deny it and act like it's a good thing to have ridiculously long defensive games. It's just not.

I do agree with your point, but having defensive options is necessary for a fighting game. It's agreeable with Melee, since Melee can be campy at times, but it just rewards aggressive play a little more IMO!

 

[Conda]

One thing that Apex has shown me - Smash 4 deserves to be taken as seriously as Melee. The skill ceiling is so high, and players like ZeRo show what you get with pure dedication. I wouldn't write off great players who simply aren't at ZeRo's level yet. But as players continue training and taking the game and their choices in each fight super seriously, we will see that Smash 4 is a force to be reckoned with. It's just as ridiculously skill-based, difficult to master, and intricate as any top fighting game.

Things are looking amazing for Smash 4. There's so much going on in each fight, and so much to master and improve at.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Or just play a character that doesn't have easy "get out of jail free" cards. Or Nintendo could fix it. Honestly Luma shouldn't be able to do anything when Rosalina is in hitstun/tumble. It's a pretty mindless mechanic if you ask me.

Outside of some rare cases where someone grabs Rosalina at the same moment she attacks (so Rosalina is interrupted but Luma's move still comes out), I can't actually remember seeing Luma attack while Rosalina is caught in hitstun. It's always been tied to her using her own aerial "legitimately," as it were.

 

[Gawain]

I do agree with your point, but having defensive options is necessary for a fighting game. It's agreeable with Melee, since Melee can be campy at times, but it just rewards aggressive play a little more IMO!

Well its ironic because the people defending campy play don't even recognize that Melee did have a defensive game. Melee's defensive game is actually extremely cerebral. When you're defending in Melee you actually need to consider your options because you can't just mindless shield everything and drop shield whenever, or mindless roll or spot dodge. Melee's defensive/offensive game is the balanced one. Smash 4 is usually pretty close to balanced. It's only really a problem with heavy projectile characters or characters with exceptional roll frame data. Or Rosalina.

 

[etecoon]

Congrats to Zero.

My thoughts relevant to this topic: your choice of character does not determine your record, not to any significant extent. Why do we not see Zinoto or other true Diddy mains since Brawl winning tournaments? Why is it Zero, the same guy who won tons of Brawl tournaments with Meta Knight? I'll tell you why. Because he's Zero, and he's clearly the best player in this game right now. Very rarely is a player ever truly held back by his character. Maybe aMSa in Melee. Almost everyone else saying that they can't win because of Diddy is johning, straight up.

I agree with the spirit of your post, Zero is on another level right now and he completely deserved the win and Diddy isn't broken or anything...but saying that players rarely get held back by characters isn't accurate, Brawl and Melee were really unbalanced games and some very skilled players were most definitely held back by playing bad characters. Even top players you can observe this with, there's a reason M2K didn't stick with KD3. Time will tell with this game but I don't think character choice will be 100% irrelevant this time around either