Character Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

The metagame is driven, at the moment, by speed offense... isn't it nice to have some defense? I sure enjoy a healthy balance. If a defensive specialist wins in a game where offensive pressure is so strong, I'd be hyped. Of course, defense/walling shouldn't overwhelm offense like it did in Brawl, but having some defense is refreshing. It's like seeing a pitcher's duel in the steroid era of baseball.

To be on topic, I think the Rosa/Olimar/Pacman/DH/MM placings show us that, while projectiles in general may have been nerfed from brawl, defensive zoning/play is still strong. I'd say aMSa's greninja is defensive in a bait/punish type way and that strategy seems to work well too.

Variety in strategies is something I can get on board with. Especially when variety in strategies = variety in characters = more interesting (was very tempted to put fun instead of interesting)

(Says the mega man main)

 

[Minordeth]

I'm laughing at the people trying to smack talk rush down in defense of defensive play. Give me a break. You're acting like spectatorship doesn't matter at all? You're seriously fooling yourself if you subscribe to that belief. People want to watch what they find fun. What the majority wants to watch is what will live longest and what will make the most money. There's a reason Melee is still number 1 and Brawl has faded tremendously. People like rushdown because it's fun to play AND watch, it's thought provoking and requires quick and consistent technical precision. It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with people in denial about what the community wants to see.

And it's not just Smash either. This is true in any community. Play like Dabuz and the overall reaction to it emphasizes this point. So stop trying to deny it and act like it's a good thing to have ridiculously long defensive games. It's just not.

You're changing the goal-posts and erecting a strawman. No one is arguing that defensive play is more fun to watch. I'm addressing weird misnomers about what camping actually is, and posters going on about how Dabuz doesn't "deserve" to be in top 8. It's mind-boggling.

ETA: Camping doesn't really exist in fighting games in the same sense as zoning does. Zoning is on a spectrum of close and far pressuring with keep-away tactics with far pressuring on one side, and cqc shield pressure on the other.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Well its ironic because the people defending campy play don't even recognize that Melee did have a defensive game. Melee's defensive game is actually extremely cerebral. When you're defending in Melee you actually need to consider your options because you can't just mindless shield everything and drop shield whenever, or mindless roll or spot dodge. Melee's defensive/offensive game is the balanced one. Smash 4 is usually pretty close to balanced. It's only really a problem with heavy projectile characters or characters with exceptional roll frame data. Or Rosalina.

You make a great point. Melee does offer defensive options, it's just slightly different compared to Smash 4. Granted, I personally think Melee rewards offensive more, but it's defensive options isn't unviable by any means. Marth, Jiggs, Shiek, and Samus play the most effectively by playing defensively. I'm not a big fan of camping, but I don't mind it and it's a viable strategy, it's just not very fun to watch. I like Smash 4 a lot, but Melee is still the better game!

 

[Conda]

Defensive play was the main meta playstyle that was developed super quickly in Brawl. Same goes for Smash 3ds due to us all holding pack-of-gum-shaped controllers. The opposite is true in Smash Wii U.

Defensive zoning play is doing well, but a great player like ZeRo who goes balls-to-the-wall and can calculate options on the fly will always be able to pressure out a zoning-focused player/character. Rosalina can get so far on her own because she shuts down so much of what's effective in this meta due to her ridiculous hitboxes and killpower, as well as the everlasting hitboxes that Luma provides. No other character has these benefits. But on top of that, to provide matchup dependability, she can literally shut down a huge amount of the options other zoning-based characters have. She can stand tall almost always as a result.

People ignoring Rosalina as a legitimate threat after 1.04 is as much a flavour-of-the-month whim as anything else.

It's this kind of stuff that I love - how the variety of characters affects the variety of playstyles that can be developed. Smash 4 reaches LoL/Dota-esque heights in vastness. This is a pretty important aspect of my commentary style over at www.youtube.com/CobbsGames - there's so much going on in Smash 4, and I'm blown away by what each character can do. It's an honour to be able to share my passion with the world and be part of the ever-growing Smash competitive community.

Rosalina is a super effective zoning-based character who works very well in Smash 4, regardless of what the meta is. Her mechanics will allow her to remain strong because she has such effective exclusive perks going on at all times, whether it be her hitboxes, kill power, luma, or shield pressure - she's amazing at utilizing each, and gets a lot out of successful reads as well as successful option-reduction.

 

[NairWizard]

I agree with the spirit of your post, Zero is on another level right now and he completely deserved the win and Diddy isn't broken or anything...but saying that players rarely get held back by characters isn't accurate, Brawl and Melee were really unbalanced games and some very skilled players were most definitely held back by playing bad characters. Even top players you can observe this with, there's a reason M2K didn't stick with KD3. Time will tell with this game but I don't think character choice will be 100% irrelevant this time around either

You're right, but there's a difference between playing bad characters and playing characters who are good but not the best. I don't expect Zelda to win a national no matter how good the Zelda player is. Megaman, though? I can see it. I'm down.

Melee and Brawl had smaller pools of competitively viable characters than this game does, but the core principle has never changed: the best player will take #1.

 

[Minordeth]

This is why I think Dabuz should have stuck with Rosa for the finale. His zoning game with Olimar was effective against M2K, but I don't think he had the depth of character knowledge to deal with an opponent who could close the gap. He can zone and pressure with Rosalina effectively, partly because he can use her effectively when an opponent gets in. Zoning is only effective when you can transition in and out of it given opponent abilities.

I think Dabuz ran on a gimmick with Olimar, hoping that Zero wouldn't figure it out, but Zero has apparently mentioned before that he hates the Olimar MU, so it makes sense that he knows it.

 

[Locke 06]

Defensive zoning play is doing well, but a great player like ZeRo who goes balls-to-the-wall and can calculate options on the fly will always be able to pressure out a zoning-focused player/character.

You don't think a great defensive player who can calculate options on the fly can keep out a balls to the wall player like Zero?

 

[Empty Number]

I'm laughing at the people trying to smack talk rush down in defense of defensive play. Give me a break. You're acting like spectatorship doesn't matter at all? You're seriously fooling yourself if you subscribe to that belief. People want to watch what they find fun. What the majority wants to watch is what will live longest and what will make the most money. There's a reason Melee is still number 1 and Brawl has faded tremendously. People like rushdown because it's fun to play AND watch, it's thought provoking and requires quick and consistent technical precision. It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with people in denial about what the community wants to see.

And it's not just Smash either. This is true in any community. Play like Dabuz and the overall reaction to it emphasizes this point. So stop trying to deny it and act like it's a good thing to have ridiculously long defensive games. It's just not.

The only game DaBuz timed out was versus PacMan, and that set was incredibly fun to watch IMO. Very cerebral. Both players trying to create the perfect set-up while simultaneously reacting to what the other was doing.

I'm not down-playing rushdown. I merely think that defensive play that's centered on zoning, careful spacing, and calculated pressure can be just as enjoyable to watch.

 

[Conda]

You don't think a great defensive player who can calculate options on the fly can keep out a balls to the wall player like Zero?

I think the kind of pressure that defensive players can put out doesn't 'pressure' as well as the kind of pressure an amazing aggressive player can put out.

Defensive play, done perfectly, forces you to be patient. Aggressive play, done perfectly, forces you to never make mistakes. Which is harder to do. But more importantly - the flavour of pressure that can be applied by amazing aggressive players - like ZeRo - can overwhelm the senses and make you make mistakes far more than a defensive player can, imo.

You have to be a lot quicker when trying to counter an aggressive player. To counter a defensive player, you have to play smarter and more patiently. But you often have more time. Some players and characters will have an easier time with one than the other.

Abadango had a lot of time to deal with Dabuz's Rosalina - Dabuz is a very slow-paced player, so adjusting to him will let you combat him on an even playing field. But Abadango still didn't make the right choices that would've gotten him the win. He's a fast player with great reflexes and dexterity, which lets him utilize PacMan's items in great ways. But he couldn't change things up enough or play 'smart' enough to deal with Dabuz, who deleted most of what PacMan could do with grav pull. He could've played a different kind of PacMan, but didn't. He'll learn how to play a more versatile PacMan, and hopefully he shows us at a future tournament.

 

[Ffamran]

You don't think a great defensive player who can calculate options on the fly can keep out a balls to the wall player like Zero?

Isn't that Zero, though? He seems like a defensive-offensive player who figures out options upon options to destroy you and keep himself away from harm, but I only seen like 2 matches with him.

 

[Pyr]

You don't think a great defensive player who can calculate options on the fly can keep out a balls to the wall player like Zero?

In what context. It's why matchups change between 2 individual characters can differ vastly. Character Strengths and Weaknesses will determine the winner with 2 equal players with 2 different playstyles.

Aka standard matchup analysis. It can go either way in Smash 4.

 

[Gawain]

The only game DaBuz timed out was versus PacMan, and that set was incredibly fun to watch IMO. Very cerebral. Both players trying to create the perfect set-up while simultaneously reacting to what the other was doing.

I'm not down-playing rushdown. I merely think that defensive play that's centered on zoning, careful spacing, and calculated pressure can be just as enjoyable to watch.

If it were as enjoyable then there wouldn't be major backlash against it. Words are just that: words. People have already spoken in the FGC, sitting in one side and forcing the other guy to do all the legwork just because there's no downside to it is not fun at all except to a very select few. And a very select few isn't what keep a community game alive.

 

[Pyr]

If it were as enjoyable then there wouldn't be major backlash against it. Words are just that: words. People have already spoken in the FGC, sitting in one side and forcing the other guy to do all the legwork just because there's no downside to it is not fun at all except to a very select few. And a very select few isn't what keep a community game alive.

Ya, but the few players that do take up a style like that aren't going to kill the game either.

 

[Conda]

ZeRo is very aggressive. Being aggressive doesn't mean you don't use defensive options like sheilding - you always have to use shielding. What ZeRo does, though, is overwhelm his opponents and not let them breathe. Sometimes he does this by playing smart and using defensive options, but he's always doing so as part of a grand offensive strategy - he's looking for an opportunity when you do something fruitless so he can pounce and kill you in a grab.

Diddy works great for this playstyle, as he can do this gameplan from range when holding a banana (trip -> grab) or aerially (monkey flip), making him a demon in many situations. You need reflexes like ZeRo to use him optimally in all of these different situations, but Diddy can do it better than almost anyone else.

ZeRo is not a 'defensive' player, though. He's a smart player, but much more aggressive than he is defensive. M2K plays a much more defensive Diddy, and it is very blatantly clear. He has completely different approaches to situations. M2K utilizes patient play very often - he often decides to stand still, hold shield, or run away to reposition. He's amazing at this sort of thing, but still plays aggressively once he's in and will not hold back until he decides to. ZeRo does this sometimes too, but M2K does it much more often and its more of a 'core' to his playstyle currently.

ZeRo, on the other hand, will very frequently run in with a fair wall and react to how his opponent reacts. Again - M2K will do this sometimes as well, but ZeRo uses this kind of style far more often. Especially in neutral state, which sets him apart as he actually does it successfully, which gives him super quick wins.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well its ironic because the people defending campy play don't even recognize that Melee did have a defensive game. Melee's defensive game is actually extremely cerebral. When you're defending in Melee you actually need to consider your options because you can't just mindless shield everything and drop shield whenever, or mindless roll or spot dodge. Melee's defensive/offensive game is the balanced one. Smash 4 is usually pretty close to balanced. It's only really a problem with heavy projectile characters or characters with exceptional roll frame data. Or Rosalina.

Of course Melee has a defensive game, and my favorite part of competitive Melee is the offense vs. defense MUs, moreso than the Fox dittos. A clash of different styles is more interesting to me than seeing nothing more than a bunch of different flavors of rushdown. I get the issues with Rosalina specifically, as she's actively rewarded for stalling, but plenty of other characters are fun, Pac-Man's shenanigans specifically being very interesting. If we were only getting campy MUs I'd see where you're coming from, but Diddy vs. Sheik among others is very much an offensive matchup, and we're getting a variety of different viable playstyles, just like in Melee, and I don't understand complaints about variety, which is after all the spice of life.

 

[Gawain]

Of course Melee has a defensive game, and my favorite part of competitive Melee is the offense vs. defense MUs, moreso than the Fox dittos. A clash of different styles is more interesting to me than seeing nothing more than a bunch of different flavors of rushdown. I get the issues with Rosalina specifically, as she's actively rewarded for stalling, but plenty of other characters are fun, Pac-Man's shenanigans specifically being very interesting. If we were only getting campy MUs I'd see where you're coming from, but Diddy vs. Sheik among others is very much an offensive matchup, and we're getting a variety of different viable playstyles, just like in Melee, and I don't understand complaints about variety, which is after all the spice of life.

Because some of those varieties are a massive chokehold on the spectatorship of the game and absolutely ruin a ton of characters. Rosalina single handedly invalidates a lot of characters who just don't have the frame advantage to deal with reactive players. There is nothing good about having characters that benefit so much from just reacting to the other player. Literally nothing.

Ya, but the few players that do take up a style like that aren't going to kill the game either.

I wouldn't put my money on that statement. Especially when it's a hell of a lot more than "a few".

 

[Makorel]

One thing that Apex has shown me - Smash 4 deserves to be taken as seriously as Melee. The skill ceiling is so high, and players like ZeRo show what you get with pure dedication. I wouldn't write off great players who simply aren't at ZeRo's level yet. But as players continue training and taking the game and their choices in each fight super seriously, we will see that Smash 4 is a force to be reckoned with. It's just as ridiculously skill-based, difficult to master, and intricate as any top fighting game.

Things are looking amazing for Smash 4. There's so much going on in each fight, and so much to master and improve at.

I agree that Zero seems to be a step above anyone else playing the game but I'm afraid that people might see Diddy winning Apex and write off Smash 4 competitively because they think there's only one character worth playing, and it will lead to an early, undeserved death for this game.

 

[Pyr]

I wouldn't put my money on that statement. Especially when it's a hell of a lot more than "a few".

Well, I watched the same thing you did (I hope), so when do we cross the more then "a few" threshold? How defensive do we have to get to count it?

I didn't see Brawl defense today. Or Melee Defense. I saw something different and not even in between. If this was the best representation of top-level play for the game we currently have, which I believe it was, then I do think we only have a few players that "ruin the viewing experience."

I do, humbly, believe you're over-reacting.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Jeez. When did the melee scene turn into a bunch of babies?

 

[thehard]

Jeez. When did the melee scene turn into a bunch of babies?

They didn't turn into babies, they just never grew up.



kidding obviously

 

[Conda]

I agree that Zero seems to be a step above anyone else playing the game but I'm afraid that people might see Diddy winning Apex and write off Smash 4 competitively because they think there's only one character worth playing, and it will lead to an early, undeserved death for this game.

I think that's a silly conclusion for anyone to come up with. If Ally played at ZeRo's level, he would've placed much higher. Same goes for everyone else at the tournament. These players aren't playing Smash 4 at the same level as ZeRo and a few other top players. Once everyone gets better and the skill levels get closer, things will get a lot more interesting. Which is saying a lot, because things are already super interesting.

Players still need to improve and study their valuation of what's safe/unsafe, what offers desirable reward, what defensive options are unpredictable, and what bait tactics are most effective at each moment. A lot of great players still do a ton of unsafe things that cause them matches, and even sets. Not many players are at their top game. You can tell when some players go for empty grabs while their opponent couldn't possible have been grabbed. Or when some players go for dthrow-fair combos that don't have a chance at connecting, just because it's muscle memory.

ZeRo rarely ever does an aerial after a throw that doesn't land, but not every Diddy does. Not every player does. Some players use attacks that make them unsafe, and players like ZeRo and M2K (etc etc) know how to gain a lead whenever you do that. Once the whole field of competition tightens up, we'll see even MORE hype/exciting matches.

 

[Kofu]

I think the kind of pressure that defensive players can put out doesn't 'pressure' as well as the kind of pressure an amazing aggressive player can put out.

Defensive play, done perfectly, forces you to be patient. Aggressive play, done perfectly, forces you to never make mistakes. Which is harder to do. But more importantly - the flavour of pressure that can be applied by amazing aggressive players - like ZeRo - can overwhelm the senses and make you make mistakes far more than a defensive player can, imo.

You have to be a lot quicker when trying to counter an aggressive player. To counter a defensive player, you have to play smarter and more patiently. But you often have more time. Some players and characters will have an easier time with one than the other.

Abadango had a lot of time to deal with Dabuz's Rosalina - Dabuz is a very slow-paced player, so adjusting to him will let you combat him on an even playing field. But Abadango still didn't make the right choices that would've gotten him the win. He's a fast player with great reflexes and dexterity, which lets him utilize PacMan's items in great ways. But he couldn't change things up enough or play 'smart' enough to deal with Dabuz, who deleted most of what PacMan could do with grav pull. He could've played a different kind of PacMan, but didn't. He'll learn how to play a more versatile PacMan, and hopefully he shows us at a future tournament.

It's this sort of logic and theory that I feel will hold Villager players back until they learn that he's meant to apply pressure, not camp. He holds no threat from a long distance since slingshots are limited range and Lloid is really easy to avoid on its own. Compare that to Pac-Man or Samus who can build up to a dangerous projectile and who you don't want to have that option, so you rush them down. Planting a tree kind of counts, but he can't pull it out just anywhere and he can't hold the charge indefinitely either. He can play defensively, sure, but he can't really camp, not as a sole playstyle. Not helping his position is his dismal grab, which is somewhere in between a normal and a tether grab with basically none of the perks from either (it comes out late, only lasts two frames, barely has better range than a normal grab, and has terrible lag). His pivot grab has pretty good range, though.

 

[Makorel]

I think that's a silly conclusion for anyone to come up with.

So do I, and yet it's a conclusion I've seen some people come to after tonight's grand finals. They probably weren't tournament players but it won't help Smash 4 if it's perceived by the general public that it's only worth trying to win with Diddy.

 

[RanserSSF4]

So do I, and yet it's a conclusion I've seen some people come to after tonight's grand finals. They probably weren't tournament players but it won't help Smash 4 if it's perceived by the general public that it's only worth trying to win with Diddy.

Most of the players who come up with that conclusion either hate Diddy so much or are just salty against Diddy. I do get your point, but some just need to learn the MU instead of complaining, but some just refuse to do so. Diddy IMO isn't the best character in Smash 4. That title goes to Shiek.

 

[Gawain]

Well, I watched the same thing you did (I hope), so when do we cross the more then "a few" threshold? How defensive do we have to get to count it?

I didn't see Brawl defense today. Or Melee Defense. I saw something different and not even in between. If this was the best representation of top-level play for the game we currently have, which I believe it was, then I do think we only have a few players that "ruin the viewing experience."

I do, humbly, believe you're over-reacting.

Take a look at the entry statistics and characters chosen. It reflects an attitude. And when more people see that certain tactics are working, which they are, more people will subscribe to those tactics. When almost half of the top 8 matches involved campy play, it damages the perception of the game. You can't reasonable deny that. The way the public perceives something is important, no matter how much in denial some people get about it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You don't think a great defensive player who can calculate options on the fly can keep out a balls to the wall player like Zero?

Maybe if it was Abadango.

I don't have a qualm with time outs if the fight warrants them, but I do wonder if Dabuz would have beaten Abadango otherwise, he definitely left a positive impression of Pac.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

They didn't turn into babies, they just never grew up.


kidding obviously

Well you'd think after all the **** the smash community has taken and continues to get from the fgc they'd understand what it's like to be considered a lesser game in others eyes and at least not bash. But no. They have to ***** and complain that other people like a game they don't. They have literally become what they hated years ago. Congrats Melee scene. You are now the toxin. Enjoy it I guess.

 

[Pyr]

Take a look at the entry statistics and characters chosen. It reflects an attitude. And when more people see that certain tactics are working, which they are, more people will subscribe to those tactics. When almost half of the top 8 matches involved campy play, it damages the perception of the game. You can't reasonable deny that. The way the public perceives something is important, no matter how much in denial some people get about it.

I don't deny it in the least. Our views of what is unenjoyable to play as/against/watch must be vastly different, though. Going through several forums, only Rosa is being commented on as being too defensive/boring/etc. As Conda said earlier, the Metagame for 4 is still maturing and, naturally, things like what Rosa did earlier make it through because people can't just deal with it on the fly. That will take time.

Want to know what I AM seeing on many forums? Hype. Lots, and lots, of hype. Apex was not a display of the doom to come to smash 4. The majority talked about the hype. Ya, Rosa did her thing. But, compared to how people viewed smash 4 on release? We're going a direction of offense and defense blended into something that can have hype rivaling Melee. If you are truly worried about the perception of Smash 4 from Apex, then you can sleep easy tonight. Crowds will be cheering for years to come, and this will not be another Brawl.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Well you'd think after all the **** the smash community has taken and continues to get from the fgc they'd understand what it's like to be considered a lesser game in others eyes and at least not bash. But no. They have to ***** and complain that other people like a game they don't. They have literally become what they hated years ago. Congrats Melee scene. You are now the toxin. Enjoy it I guess.

Its just a few select people in the scene. We can't blame the entire scene for negativity.

 

[thehard]

Well you'd think after all the **** the smash community has taken and continues to get from the fgc they'd understand what it's like to be considered a lesser game in others eyes and at least not bash. But no. They have to ***** and complain that other people like a game they don't. They have literally become what they hated years ago. Congrats Melee scene. You are now the toxin. Enjoy it I guess.

Smash 4 is new and thus an easy target. They didn't get the Melee 2 they wanted. It sucks but people like that don't change.

I really enjoyed the Top 8 despite "majority" opinion and I'm excited to see what in direction this game goes.

And TBQH, the chat in Team Sp00ky was sooo much better than VGBC. They're very supportive of Smash 4 (started to run weeklies as well) despite being a traditional fighting game stream. Melee fans could learn a lot from them.

 

[Muro]

Lots of denial in this thread. Oh well, good luck.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I don't really understand the need to have a melee 2. I'm sure people would complain that it would be too similar. I just want this game to grow and not be attacked for no reason.

 

[Neoleo21]

Characters are nerfed before they even play, this is what playing without custom moves is like, no hype Palutenas, lucarios, Falcos, Ganons, Ikes etc. This is just wrong, we could be looking up so much yet the competitive scene sees so little.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm tired of you guys blaming the ENTIRE Melee community for a select few semi-competitive, non playing, spectate only, people. We need to stop trying to create faction within the Smash Community. At this rate we will have a fissure larger than the larger than the Grand Canyon.

Anyway, the fact people are mad that Dabuz timed out yadda, yadda, yadda. Dabuz plays zoning characters, hence why it's considered a CP to a rushdown like Diddy.

 

[IsmaR]

This isn't the thread for debating this.

Both (and all) games have vocal detractors and critics. They don't and will never speak for everyone. Blahblahblah respect differences.

 

[Locke 06]

I think the kind of pressure that defensive players can put out doesn't 'pressure' as well as the kind of pressure an amazing aggressive player can put out.

Defensive play, done perfectly, forces you to be patient. Aggressive play, done perfectly, forces you to never make mistakes. Which is harder to do. But more importantly - the flavour of pressure that can be applied by amazing aggressive players - like ZeRo - can overwhelm the senses and make you make mistakes far more than a defensive player can, imo.

You have to be a lot quicker when trying to counter an aggressive player. To counter a defensive player, you have to play smarter and more patiently. But you often have more time. Some players and characters will have an easier time with one than the other.

Abadango had a lot of time to deal with Dabuz's Rosalina - Dabuz is a very slow-paced player, so adjusting to him will let you combat him on an even playing field. But Abadango still didn't make the right choices that would've gotten him the win. He's a fast player with great reflexes and dexterity, which lets him utilize PacMan's items in great ways. But he couldn't change things up enough or play 'smart' enough to deal with Dabuz, who deleted most of what PacMan could do with grav pull. He could've played a different kind of PacMan, but didn't. He'll learn how to play a more versatile PacMan, and hopefully he shows us at a future tournament.

Bolded the important part (imo).

I don't think defensive play forces you to be patient any more than aggressive play does. With aggressive play, you have to be patient knowing your opponent is applying safe pressure and you need to choose the safe option. When an aggressive Sheik FAir's your shield safely, you need to know that you can't shield grab and be patient. Great defensive play, done perfectly, forces you to never make mistakes with your offense just like great offensive play, done perfectly, forces you to never make mistakes with your defense. Both require you to be patient.

Adjusting to Dabuz's Rosalina "lets you combat him on an even playing field," but Dabuz can adjust back to tilt it back in his favor. A great defensive player is at the same level of adaptation as a great offensive player. It just depends on the roles and the options.

That said, after thinking about it a lot, I'm leaning towards the idea that great defensive play should never win in this game, because the conversions off of defensive play and stage control is just not strong enough to combat offensive juggernauts. On the other hand, it is very character MU based in that X's defense might beat Y's offense. So I don't know.

Also, the game isn't black and white "offense vs defense." So this is a pretty pointless exercise I guess.

Edit: I always seem to think of something after I hit the post button. I think default Palutena is supposed to be a defensive character based on her moveset. Her specials scream defense + force approach while her normals straight up beat other options (DA/BAir, tilts don't rebound) and then her grab game is very good in combination with FAir and UAir. I think she'd actually be very good if Ftilt was safe on shield.

 

[thehard]

No one blames the entire Melee community but when the APEX venue, twitch and reddit are filled with "Smash 4 iz ded" gun-jumping you sort of want to defend the game you love. I know some of it is straight up trolling but it's stuff like that that potentially turns into the kind of **** Brawl got (I still can't believe some people dedicated themselves so much to hating that game)

If it gets worse, I'd rather Smash 4's scene not be associated with Melee. If people keep playing Smash 4 it will keep living. Simple as that. I wouldn't mind a smaller but equally dedicated scene at all.

Done with OT talk, sorry

 

[Ffamran]

I don't really understand the need to have a melee 2. I'm sure people would complain that it would be too similar. I just want this game to grow and not be attacked for no reason.

You should read what some of the DMC, Zelda, Mario, Sonic, or any fanbase says. There's always one game that want as another, like another Final Fantasy VII, another Devil May Cry 3, another Ocarina of Time, or another Sonic 2, but if and when they get it, they complain. Remember A Link Between Worlds? Yeah, called a copy-paste job despite it being basically a love letter to A Link to the Past fans. You can and never will be able to please anyone.

Anyway, on-topic:

Characters are nerfed before they even play, this is what playing without custom moves is like, no hype Palutenas, lucarios, Falcos, Ganons, Ikes etc. This is just wrong, we could be looking up so much yet the competitive scene sees so little.

There was like 2 Falcos and none of them mained him. It was Keitaro and someone who switched to DK or someone. Still, I would have liked to see more Ikes since it was proven that he can handle his own since Ryuga on the 3DS or Ganondorf who just needs to be played carefully and punish everything. Oh well, people are people and they will usually flock over to the "best" thing even if it doesn't fit them. Seriously, if you suck at using Diddy, but you're good at Mega Man, then I believe it would be better to master your Mega Man before you learn Diddy. Leaving at pretty much halfway isn't good since there's already something there and that something could be new and unfamiliar to people. Imagine a master Mega Man - basically if Zero played Mega Man. It would be insane, but whatever.

Hey, look what at IsmaR said. I warned you all a page ago.

I think you guys and gals should stop talking about people's play styles unless they directly apply to a character, like, Duck Hunt camping gives them damage, but can't really do much to get a kill without Can or something. Otherwise, if you want to argue, take it to a PM or hell, make a thread about play styles and which is boring, dirty, honorable, fun, or whatnot. This is a thread about Character Competitive Impressions if the title slips your mind.

 

[DanGR]

It's silly for you guys to say Luma gets free hits when Rosalina gets hit. This isn't some hidden mechanic that activates at random. Do you guys even understand in what situations Luma can act and how her priority works? There are tons of ways to get around it. Dabuz outplayed everyone in this regard.

This is why I think Dabuz should have stuck with Rosa for the finale. His zoning game with Olimar was effective against M2K, but I don't think he had the depth of character knowledge to deal with an opponent who could close the gap. He can zone and pressure with Rosalina effectively, partly because he can use her effectively when an opponent gets in. Zoning is only effective when you can transition in and out of it given opponent abilities.

I think Dabuz ran on a gimmick with Olimar, hoping that Zero wouldn't figure it out, but Zero has apparently mentioned before that he hates the Olimar MU, so it makes sense that he knows it.

He stuck with Olimar in GF (and other Diddy matchups) because Rosa's matchup against Diddy is horrendous.

 

[thehard]

So...what's the deal with Luigi's absence from top 8. I was expecting him to finally transition from anti-meta to meta and Pac-Man to the new anti-meta by the time APEX was over.