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Character Competitive Impressions

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thehard

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Vinnie, Nairo, Will, False, Raptor, Keitaro and even Malcolm were in attendance to this tourney. All Apex practice for them.

My heart broke when I saw Will lose to Diddy though. Died to at like 40ish to Diddy uairs on Delfino. Got caught on top platform.

Such garbage.
How far did Will get? Can't find him on Challonge

Edit: I just realized we were talking about different tournaments, oops. He tied for 5th at XSmash after losing to Keitaro
 
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TriTails

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I predict 35% of Apex will be Diddy Kongs, and then there's 20% of Sheiks.

The other 45% is the rest of the roster.

Or.... maybe there will even be more Diddy Kongs and Sheiks than I predicted?
 

TTTTTsd

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There will probably be more than you mentioned lol. I'm not incredibly optimistic about this whole "character variety" thing and when money/trophies are on the line it just makes it more clear in my mind.
 

TriTails

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Holy cow. Just looked through Smash 4 players rank. Boss remains at #3. However, ZeRo beats NAKAT, by quite a huge gap.

And.... below Boss there are players who are nearing his points.... How heated!
 

Emblem Lord

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If you guys saw how keitaro had played to beat will and vinnie you would not be optimistic about the future of the metagame. It was the most simple and effective diddy play style you saw in your life.

Roll or spot dodge when you think you are in danger.

Never EVER approach

Use bananas to limit ground approaches and for ledge traps

Use monkey flip to aid recovery and get you out of juggle situations

Grab, d-throw, u-air

Guys he beat Will and Vinnie doing this. It was the saddest **** ever. Granted Vinnie took him down in losers, but still. Vinnie actually played the character as someone that knew how to play Diddy. Spacing, correct use of tilts and pop gun, ect. It was just a little disheartening to see such a basic play-style succeed when you have False and Nairo taking their chars to the limit.

Meh, We shall see what the future holds.
 

thehard

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The future holds a Diddy nerf. I really don't think Nintendo is going to let him get away with his cheesier points. I'm not worried...they did a good job with 1.0.4. Until then, keep practicing that MU
 

TriTails

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Yeah, the broken down throw up air is getting old.

Hopefully, they will nerf Diddy in the next patch. Just can't really stand Diddy dominating tourneys by doing something like 'pull out a banana, MF and dodge when needed, grab opponent, down throw up air, rinse wash dry repeat frekken' nonsense'.

Though, in Luigi boards, some of Luigi players found out that crouching (Better yet, crawling) can dodge Diddy's F-air and MF. Low crouching, obviously. Something like Luigi's crouch. Maybe this can somehow limit Diddy's options?

Yeah... pretty painful when Diddys win the easy way while someone like Boss had to practice his button mashing so much (12 times a second, that's not easy) that I'm sure he has broke a button or two, YET still has to learn with Luigi a lot more. Sure, Diddy isn't OP, but those easy wins are simply just ridiculious.
 

Nidtendofreak

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A good way to nerf Diddy without waiting on Nintendo is to turn on Customs.

And make Kongo Jungle a counter pick option instead of just for doubles. Dat tall ceiling.
 

HeroMystic

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Dose this make mario top tier? no really? i mean is it not the gerenral concensus that having good MU's against top tiers and other character from other tiers the basis of being top tier in a form?
While I really want to say otherwise, we have to keep in mind of Player skill as well. Simply put, Ally is on a different plateau than his competition, only rivaled by NAKAT, whom I believe went on tilt after Set 1 of GF. So as it stands, we can't say "Mario has good MUs against the top tiers". We can only say "Ally can win against the top tiers using Mario", which simply means Mario is tournament-viable.

Ideally, this showcasing of Mario will be followed-up by other Marios (such as myself) taking notes and winning tournaments or at least making top 3. By that point we could definitely argue Mario for top tier. Until then we can only attribute it to Ally's skill.

On another note, the "stop walking into U-Smash" comment is something I'm starting to see invalid. In TCU I could agree with it, but the majority of the time, Ally was just making really good reads and utilizing Mario's moveset. I mean, for christ's sake, he even used D-tilt excellently and I've never seen any other Mario use it the way he does.

If people need to stop walking into U-Smash, I want people to stop walking into Ness' grabs, or Fox's U-Smash, or Sheik's Bouncing Fish, or Diddy's U-air, or Sonic's Spin Dashes, or ZSS' Up-B.

 
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TriTails

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People actually don't run to Ness' grabs....... he just freakin' locks you in place with PK Fire and then start his shenanigans........

If the PK Fire doesn't whiff.
 

Pazzo.

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Let's all hope Diddy gets nerves... But what exactly needs to be removed so he's still balanced?
 

HeroMystic

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People actually don't run to Ness' grabs....... he just freakin' locks you in place with PK Fire and then start his shenanigans........

If the PK Fire doesn't whiff.
There has been more than enough times where NAKAT stays at the ledge, and his opponent bum-rushes him and NAKAT just grabs and uses B-throw of doom. There have even been players who shield on the ledge while Ness is recovering, and he just gets up from the ledge and grabs then throws.

Maybe it's because I play Mario, but PK Fire isn't much of an issue. If you have an attack that starts at frame 3 or less, you can attack out of the animation of PK Fire. Since Mario has invincibility of f3-6, he can actually Up-B out of PK Fire.
 

Antonykun

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Again with the Diddy talk. I could have sworn that diddy is dominating because he has such a high skill to power ratio and few got time to learn other characters who are as powerful for as little skill. Diddy might end up as the Wesker of Smash, low skill, high efficiency but ultimately beaten by a crippling weakness people started to exploit.
 
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Let's all hope Diddy gets nerves... But what exactly needs to be removed so he's still balanced?
Well, making uair have a KBG closer to, say, ZSS's and making it a little more sluggish would mean that you have to actually trap the opponents, rather than free combos, and it would mean that he can still kill off a grab (which, with his grab, is still wicked good), but can't do it for free at 110 on lightweights. Or maybe make his grab have slightly better KBG, so that you can jump out of dthrow->uair before it starts killing.

And yeah, the comparison to Wesker is pretty apt. Diddy isn't just good, he's easy. All his stuff is really trivial, to the point where I could switch from my main to Diddy and do almost as well. Obviously, this isn't a thing at top levels - diddy is good, but not broken. It's just that the skill->power ratio is so tweaked that it's hard to see past. I think the better comparison might be SF3 Chun - technically, Yun is a better character; realistically, you have to work so much harder that you might as well just abuse Sweep and cr.mk->super.
 
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Pazzo.

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Again with the Diddy talk. I could have sworn that diddy is dominating because he has such a high skill to power ratio and few got time to learn other characters who are as powerful for as little skill. Diddy might end up as the Wesker of Smash, low skill, high efficiency but ultimately beaten by a crippling weakness people started to exploit.
Wesker.. In MvC3?
 
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Yeah. The only problem with that comparison I see is that Diddy is still, well, amazing. Wesker fell off because we found stuff that made him obsolete, and moved towards more airborn play. I don't see that happening with Diddy. Wesker is weak in the air; Diddy doesn't have such an obvious weakness in the neutral game. His recovery, sure, but in the neutral, he's amazing and I don't really see how anyone is primed to unseat him in that regards.
 

David Viran

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Well, making uair have a KBG closer to, say, ZSS's and making it a little more sluggish would mean that you have to actually trap the opponents, rather than free combos, and it would mean that he can still kill off a grab (which, with his grab, is still wicked good), but can't do it for free at 110 on lightweights. Or maybe make his grab have slightly better KBG, so that you can jump out of dthrow->uair before it starts killing.
You can usually make diddy's dthrow uair not a true follow up at kill percents especially lighter characters. You can get out of it earlier than you think.
 

Asdioh

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While you're at it, make it a proper command grab so you can't shield it. (Although given how shields work I guess Kirby can just sit there Inhaling forever until it breaks?)

Although I was under the impression that Kirby's copy powers kind of sucked (heh) in Smash with a few exceptions, is that because he legit doesn't get much use out of them or because it wasn't worth the risk of Inhale? (Which a buff would hopefully fix.) I mean, I can't see him getting much use out of Bowser's flame breath.
Nope nope. I dunno where people get this impression, but Kirby gets basically exactly the same power he copies, although sometimes it's a little scaled down to Kirbysize. The sword he gets from Marth and the punch he gets from DK are smaller, for example. Although the DK punch is still deceptively large, and the shieldbreaker is still a useful disjoint! Also, Bowser/Charizard flame breaths are amazingly good, actually. It's literally free damage when spaced well, especially since you're using it on big heavy characters.

I've said it before, but Kirby is undisputed top tier with certain powers. Generally projectiles. Samus, WFT, Robin... literally any good projectile, he can use very well. It's just that actually getting those powers requires enormous risk. If you were to ever play Kirby vs. someone that stayed mobile, and you desperately wanted to grab their power, so you keep trying... you'd be amazed how much damage you take over the course of the game from just that.

Also, if Kirby could somehow have Pikmin Throw every game, people would be up in arms to ban him. It's horribly overpowered.

Woah woah woah back up, I know I've tried rolling away from an Inhaling Kirby before and he caught me before the roll fully kicked in. Is rolling behind him the trick, or is it just Little Mac having insane frame data on his roll?
It depends on distance. Close to Kirby is the "grab" part, and far away is the windbox part. If the windbox is pulling you in, you can shield it, or roll away for free. The only time the windbox is useful is if your opponent doesn't know how to space their moves against Inhale, and they try to Fsmash you or whatever from too far away, whiff, and then get pulled in by the windbox during their move's ending lag. In other words, it's useless against competent players.

Ally's Mario just destroyed every top tier in this game on stream.

I'm so hyped right now, excuse me while I do backflips.
I was laying in bed not-sleeping last night, so I decided to look at Twitch on my phone. I loaded in just in time to see the very last game, in which he bodied Mr. Pikachu. It was quite amazing.

Watching those matches, Ally proves they're winnable matchups if you basically have Mango level reaction time, at which point you're just playing a completely different game from everyone else.

Seriously, I'm just honestly baffled by how ridiculous he is at this game. He makes reads that honestly shouldn't exist, but again, once you reach a certain level of reaction time, it's not even the same game anymore.
I'm going to have to watch the rest of his matches before I can really judge, but I think he's winning because he's good and because his character has options. The match I saw, he looked simply dominant. I can guarantee you if he had dedicated his time to a character with fewer options, and lower quality options, like Kirby, he would still be capable of winning, but the struggle would have been more obvious, and it would be hard to say he "looked dominant."
 

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Wesker.. In MvC3?
UMvC3 specifically. He was so easy to use and powerful that he dominated the early meta, but his weaknesses started getting exploited eventually that he dropped in usage significantly.

Whether this is gonna happen to Diddy or not remains to be seen.
 
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UMvC3 specifically. He was so easy to use and powerful that he dominated the early meta, but his weaknesses started getting exploited eventually that he dropped in usage significantly.

Whether this is gonna happen to Diddy or not remains to be seen.
I really doubt it. As said, Wesker's biggest weaknesses came in three places: he didn't do very much damage compared to later, more optimized combos (Diddy does phenomenal damage and kills very early; it's hard to see this happening unless someone finds some ZSS tech), his style became obsolete*, and the most important thing of all: his neutral game fell apart. Wesker had a real problem in the neutral game - he dominated the ground, but he had no way to confirm from the top of the screen, where characters like Doom and Magneto liked to live. Once they started to become more popular, and once Vergil took his place as the go-to XFactor Anchor, Wesker just lost his place in the meta. I don't see this happening in Smash 4 for a variety of reasons. Diddy doesn't lack in the neutral. At all. He's got amazing tools for neutral against the whole cast, and unless the game shifts to a neutral setup somewhere else (which I could kinda see happening with things like Villager and WFT on the ledge), he's gonna be great.


*The advent of TAC infinites basically made wesker's reset-heavy playstyle completely pointless. Sure, you could go for that 50/50 reset after doing half damage... Or you could go for the 25% mixup of either air reset or TAC into infinite for the guaranteed safe kill. This applied to any character who relied on reset mixups for damage, but Wesker was really the big name in that business.
 

David Viran

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Diddy can kill early in uair and fsmash but outside of that he can't kill too early. Fsmash is good but requires setups and uair kills a lot later when people are on the ground. He has to commit in the air to with aerial approaches because of is bad aerial mobility.
 
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Neoleo21

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If I were to patch diddy, I'd make his uair have more start up, reduce the distance of monkey flip can take you and improve neutral air's knockback and damage and reduce fair priority. Diddy's weakness should be recovery imo, but it really isn't because monkey flip is way too good for horizontal recovery. Uair would still be good, but he'd have to incorporate more tilts to really optimize him.
 

A2ZOMG

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I was laying in bed not-sleeping last night, so I decided to look at Twitch on my phone. I loaded in just in time to see the very last game, in which he bodied Mr. Pikachu. It was quite amazing.

I'm going to have to watch the rest of his matches before I can really judge, but I think he's winning because he's good and because his character has options. The match I saw, he looked simply dominant. I can guarantee you if he had dedicated his time to a character with fewer options, and lower quality options, like Kirby, he would still be capable of winning, but the struggle would have been more obvious, and it would be hard to say he "looked dominant."
NAKAT doesn't play Pikachu seriously from what I know.

Ally wasn't really dominant vs NAKAT. Just nobody has his unrealistically good game sense for punishing spacing mistakes that hardly even exist in the first place.
 

Antonykun

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I really doubt it. As said, Wesker's biggest weaknesses came in three places: he didn't do very much damage compared to later, more optimized combos (Diddy does phenomenal damage and kills very early; it's hard to see this happening unless someone finds some ZSS tech), his style became obsolete*, and the most important thing of all: his neutral game fell apart. Wesker had a real problem in the neutral game - he dominated the ground, but he had no way to confirm from the top of the screen, where characters like Doom and Magneto liked to live. Once they started to become more popular, and once Vergil took his place as the go-to XFactor Anchor, Wesker just lost his place in the meta. I don't see this happening in Smash 4 for a variety of reasons. Diddy doesn't lack in the neutral. At all. He's got amazing tools for neutral against the whole cast, and unless the game shifts to a neutral setup somewhere else (which I could kinda see happening with things like Villager and WFT on the ledge), he's gonna be great.


*The advent of TAC infinites basically made wesker's reset-heavy playstyle completely pointless. Sure, you could go for that 50/50 reset after doing half damage... Or you could go for the 25% mixup of either air reset or TAC into infinite for the guaranteed safe kill. This applied to any character who relied on reset mixups for damage, but Wesker was really the big name in that business.
I'm really just saying that down the line the meta might shift into something that makes Diddy so much weaker. It took a while for air based mobility and TAC combos to happen and make Wesker not the best character in UMVC3. By th same token the meta might not shift and Diddy could always be dominating
 

meleebrawler

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Same **** about Diddy that has been said millions of times already... Next!!!
(OK I'm no moderator but unless we discover something new about or against Diddy I
feel it's in our best interest to just quickly voice your discontent and move on. Or take it
to the Diddy whine/defense thread)

Has anyone seen Zelda use uncharged Phantom as a footsie tool?
 

A2ZOMG

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Same **** about Diddy that has been said millions of times already... Next!!!
(OK I'm no moderator but unless we discover something new about or against Diddy I
feel it's in our best interest to just quickly voice your discontent and move on. Or take it
to the Diddy whine/defense thread)

Has anyone seen Zelda use uncharged Phantom as a footsie tool?
A few times back on the 3ds. Charged Phantom is usually better for shield pressure or as a b reverse punish.
 

dragontamer

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Maybe it's because I play Mario, but PK Fire isn't much of an issue. If you have an attack that starts at frame 3 or less, you can attack out of the animation of PK Fire. Since Mario has invincibility of f3-6, he can actually Up-B out of PK Fire.
It is now my goal to counter-punch Ness with Little Mac's 2-frame Nair while "trapped" in PK Fire.
 
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Man Li Gi

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I'm not a fool. I know he is lacking. The question is do those nerfs disallow him to do what he always done. Slow the game and force opponents to deal with his buttons. Time will tell.

Also I was playing Sheik not Marth. Dunno if that matters in terms of match-up relevance.
Never said that you were, but you did imply I was with that off hand remark of DK people don't know WTF they're talking about. I cannot tell you with 100% probability that DK has been nerfed beyond repair, but like I said, let the meta grow. He still can pressure, albeit in a weaker, laggier, and somewhat more nauseating way.

I personally use Nairs for Sheiks mainly because it's not as expected.
 

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I'm really just saying that down the line the meta might shift into something that makes Diddy so much weaker. It took a while for air based mobility and TAC combos to happen and make Wesker not the best character in UMVC3. By th same token the meta might not shift and Diddy could always be dominating
Diddy isn't going to get much weaker. His neutral game is top 5 at worst, his recovery is far from terrible and isn't really a big liability, and he's just good at everything. I could see optimal Sheik or something become a comparable force as the meta develops, maybe even a bit better, but Diddy is here to stay as a top tourney threat barring patches.
 

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If I were to patch diddy, I'd make his uair have more start up, reduce the distance of monkey flip can take you and improve neutral air's knockback and damage and reduce fair priority. Diddy's weakness should be recovery imo, but it really isn't because monkey flip is way too good for horizontal recovery. Uair would still be good, but he'd have to incorporate more tilts to really optimize him.
Alternatively, change the angle of DThrow to 20 degrees so that it can't be comboed into Uair. That alone would make him considerably less irritating.
 

Asdioh

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I really don't have a problem with Diddy's Downthrow. Upair legitimately is the problem, it's a frame 3 kill move with low ending lag and insane hitboxes. His Dthrow combos really don't do that much damage, especially if you DI it so you only get hit by one Upair. 7+7=14, nothing too impressive. Fair and Bair do a little more damage, but whatever, it's a Dthrow combo, almost every character (except Kirby) has some good ones. Diddy just gets grabs more easily/more often than other characters because of banana pressure, but Upair being a broken move is still the bigger issue imo.
 

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UMvC3 specifically. He was so easy to use and powerful that he dominated the early meta, but his weaknesses started getting exploited eventually that he dropped in usage significantly.

Whether this is gonna happen to Diddy or not remains to be seen.
The main weakness for Diddy people tried pointing out was "He can't recover when low"
So Diddy players just started recovering from high up charging their barrels and being able to write their names in the air before landing on the stage.

Seriously it's kinda ridiculous how easy it was to fix this "weakness" Even if they're below the stage they still can charge just enough to write at least one letter of their name in the air before grabbing the ledge, and unless you have recovery like pikachu you're definitely not going that low to try and hit him while he's charging.
 

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Playing fortuneteller here, but I think Diddy will drop in the meta as time goes by due to his recovery, which is extremely gimp-able. Of all the characters that people believe are top tier (Diddy, Luigi, Sheik, ZSS, etc.), Diddy's is clearly the one that can be gimped the easiest. I've seen characters gimp Diddy when they weren't even trying to (saw a Luigi using Down-B tornado to recover vertically just brush Diddy with one of the many hitboxes, and Diddy fell out of his Up-B and died at 50%). I think as time goes by and the strategy (not the meta) of the game evolves, players will master going off stage to knock Diddy out of his recovery.

So much of the game depends on the neutral, because it's impossible to put together 10-hit combos like in Melee, so players get a hit in, start a four hit combo that tacks on 30%, then reset. The fact that Diddy has such an obvious weakness that can be cleanly converted into a kill will, I think, drop him down as time goes by and the top players consistently attack his biggest weakness. Again, just playing fortuneteller here, who knows if I'm right.
 

bc1910

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Anyone have any thoughts on Diddy's Uthrow -> Uair combo? Diddy's up throw has ridiculously low ending lag and can combo into Uair for the kill at even lower percentages than down throw. Leffen has pointed this out before. It didn't matter much before 1.0.4 because of upward vectoring being so much stronger but now, I think we'd see an influx of Up Throw -> Uair Diddies if Uair was nerfed. Uair would need a serious knockback nerf to prevent Up Throw -> Uair from killing.

I'm worried it's gonna turn into a situation where it won't matter if Diddy can do Dthrow -> Uair because of the Uthrow variant. The Uthrow variant is a lot less versatile (and doesn't really work online, for whatever that's worth (which I realise is not much)) but it's still there, and I'm pretty sure Diddy can follow the opponent's DI to confirm kills no matter where they go.
 

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I'm going to have to watch the rest of his matches before I can really judge, but I think he's winning because he's good and because his character has options. The match I saw, he looked simply dominant. I can guarantee you if he had dedicated his time to a character with fewer options, and lower quality options, like Kirby, he would still be capable of winning, but the struggle would have been more obvious, and it would be hard to say he "looked dominant."
NAKAT's Pikachu is still in training and not quite up to the level of his Ness or Fox. That said, Set 2 of Grand Finals was Ally kicking on NAKAT's corspe after the extremely close Set 1 between them. He dominated him regardless of what character he used.

NAKAT was the only one who could give Ally a run for his money (he even managed to send him to Loser's). Everyone else pretty much got wrecked by him, Diddy Kong players included. Ideally, if Ally trained with Diddy instead of Mario, he'd be another ZeRo. But there's gotta be a reason why he chooses to stick with Mario despite this reason.
 
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