Character Competitive Impressions

[Delta_BP26]

I don't know why they don't just make Kirby have something like Jiggly's air mobility instead of it being so bad. I think that'd go a long way towards making him a decent character.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Also, DK's NAir is pretty good, the hitbox seems to cover most of his body and it's great for gimping.

...none of that is true. His Nair LOOKS good, but the hitbox is weird. Doesn't get above or below DK. It's not really a good gimping tool either. Bair is usually better, and Dair + Fair are awesome gimps if you can land em. But Nair is the kind of move that sets up dtilt locks or retreating.

 

[Kofu]

...none of that is true. His Nair LOOKS good, but the hitbox is weird. Doesn't get above or below DK. It's not really a good gimping tool either. Bair is usually better, and Dair + Fair are awesome gimps if you can land em. But Nair is the kind of move that sets up dtilt locks or retreating.

I never said it was his ONLY gimping tool. NAir is useful for gimping because it hangs around for a while (then again, BAir does too) and is a big hitbox. Weak hits like that offstage can be surprisingly destructive. The others are certainly more powerful, though, and are better to land. Really, DK has a great gimping game that is only held back by his bad vertical recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Will and I spoke quite a bit about DK today and although he is displeased with DK's sour spots and how certain moves lack hitboxes, he is overall pleased wtih DK.

Next time we talk I will ask him about d-tilt because im pretty sure its unpunishable on block.

BTW he gimped me with Nair in tourney today.....soooo yeah

Maybe some of you...don't know wtf you are talking about?

Possibly?

meh, don't mind me.

 

[Psyant]

Yeah, I don't really get what they're going for with Kirby's design at all. Like, yo, let's make a character that has really short range AND lacks the mobility needed to get in close easily. Perhaps it's necessary to balance the overwhelmingly powerful ability of being able to turn into a rock at will?

I mean he kinda has some decent combos going for him once he actually does manage to get in but it's not really an amazing reward worth suffering through his drawbacks for. I hope I'm just ignorant and Kirby's actually better than I think he is right now. I really like the little guy but he just feels underwhelming.

 

[irokex13]

Yeah, I don't really get what they're going for with Kirby's design at all. Like, yo, let's make a character that has really short range AND lacks the mobility needed to get in close easily. Perhaps it's necessary to balance the overwhelmingly powerful ability of being able to turn into a rock at will?

I mean he kinda has some decent combos going for him once he actually does manage to get in but it's not really an amazing reward worth suffering through his drawbacks for. I hope I'm just ignorant and Kirby's actually better than I think he is right now. I really like the little guy but he just feels underwhelming.

While he isn't that powerful, he has the super annoying quality of avoiding grabs when he lands. Combine that with his low lag aerials and everyone's obnoxious rolls and he can make matches last quite a while.

 

[HeavyLobster]

While he isn't that powerful, he has the super annoying quality of avoiding grabs when he lands. Combine that with his low lag aerials and everyone's obnoxious rolls and he can make matches last quite a while.

True, but Pika has those same advantages in addition to actual advantages that are more than just a nuisance. The least they could've done was let him keep the killer E3 Uthrow.

 

[Nobie]

Yeah, I don't really get what they're going for with Kirby's design at all. Like, yo, let's make a character that has really short range AND lacks the mobility needed to get in close easily. Perhaps it's necessary to balance the overwhelmingly powerful ability of being able to turn into a rock at will?

I mean he kinda has some decent combos going for him once he actually does manage to get in but it's not really an amazing reward worth suffering through his drawbacks for. I hope I'm just ignorant and Kirby's actually better than I think he is right now. I really like the little guy but he just feels underwhelming.

The big advantage Kirby has over other characters is that he has on average the lowest landing lag on aerials in the game. I can't think of many other characters who can combo out of their down air spike so easily.

 

[Asdioh]

It's just that literally every strength I can think of for Kirby, a better character also has a similar strength. (HeavyLobster basically ninja'd me with this)

Since you mentioned his landing avoiding grabs, yes his landing animations are pretty good, and his crouch is amazing for avoiding moves... but Pikachu also has similar awkward hurtboxes that let him avoid plenty of moves. Jigglypuff has essentially the same crouch height as Kirby, but has the option of Rest to punish moves she dodges with crouch.

What else is unique to Kirby? Well, the ability to Copy is pretty sweet, but it's connected to a move that has roughly 17-18 frames of startup, and if you whiff it, it's more punishable than most Smash attacks. That wouldn't be too much of a problem, but oops, this move is on the third lightest character in the game. He can't afford that punishment, which is why you so rarely see Inhale used in competitive play.
He also has 5 jumps! Which is actually quite good, mainly because of how airdodge landing lag works in Smash4. But then you see Jigglypuff's 5 jumps, combined with the highest air speed in the game... while Kirby is 4th from last. Oops.

The big advantage Kirby has over other characters is that he has on average the lowest landing lag on aerials in the game. I can't think of many other characters who can combo out of their down air spike so easily.

True, but they're really not safe on shield, aside from maybe a perfectly spaced fadeaway Bair, and even then that might be character dependent. If he had more air mobility, he might be able to space aerials well like Mario does, but alas...
Dair is nice, but again, 18 frame startup, extremely punishable on shield. I used to think it would at least be a good crossup, but it's hard to crossup (airspeed!) and even if you do, good players simply turn around and grab me during Dair's tiny endlag. MikeKirby practically never ever uses Dair, and he's the most successful Kirby I've seen in this game. He might go for it offstage, but that's about it. It's a shame, because Dair->Dsmash (or other smash) seemed to be Kirby's most reliable KO setup in this game.

Yeah, I don't really get what they're going for with Kirby's design at all. Like, yo, let's make a character that has really short range AND lacks the mobility needed to get in close easily. Perhaps it's necessary to balance the overwhelmingly powerful ability of being able to turn into a rock at will?

I mean he kinda has some decent combos going for him once he actually does manage to get in but it's not really an amazing reward worth suffering through his drawbacks for. I hope I'm just ignorant and Kirby's actually better than I think he is right now. I really like the little guy but he just feels underwhelming.

I don't really get the design either. I don't get what I'm supposed to do when I get in to my opponent. It's like they thought he was gamebreakingly OP in Brawl (he was pretty poor in that game too, if you didn't know) so they nerfed just about everything. They took Dthrow's combo/techchase potential from the past two games, and gave it to Diddy, and Luigi, and Mario, and literally over half the characters in the game. This Kirby's Dthrow is useless because it sends opponents too far for a followup.. unless they're at low percent and you can follow up with Upper Cutter, maybe. Yay 16 damage, followed by a freefall! I did discover that it can kinda be used to KO Luma in the Rosalina matchup, by doing Dthrow into fsmash or jab->fsmash, so that's useful I guess.

His combos are honestly good, but only in certain scenarios. Land an Uptilt on a 0% Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon (these are the high tiers this works on I can think of right now) and you can get a probably inescapable 30-40+ damage. That's great! Note that Rage completely screws over his low % combo ability, really badly. That 30-40+ damage easily gets cut in half because uptilt and upair easily send people too far away with Rage.

It's true though, Stone is stupidly strong in FFAs. ;_;
Anyway I no longer disagree when people call him Low Tier, especially since I don't know who is legitimately worse. He's still usable though, he has some good matchups against commonly used "high tier" characters, usually because abuse of his Uptilt being a ridiculously good combo move, his crouch making life hell for taller characters, and his edgeguarding being pretty good. But against many characters it's just... very, very uphill.

He can't even toy around with Ganondorf anymore I still can't get over it.
(oh i also discovered that if you add up the startup lag for all of Kirby's aerials, you get 54 frames, and if you add the startup for Ganondorf's, you get 53. I know that's just startup, and doesn't include endlag or other properties of the moves, but still, what!)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah, I don't really get what they're going for with Kirby's design at all. Like, yo, let's make a character that has really short range AND lacks the mobility needed to get in close easily. Perhaps it's necessary to balance the overwhelmingly powerful ability of being able to turn into a rock at will?

I mean he kinda has some decent combos going for him once he actually does manage to get in but it's not really an amazing reward worth suffering through his drawbacks for. I hope I'm just ignorant and Kirby's actually better than I think he is right now. I really like the little guy but he just feels underwhelming.

iv seem kirby get 70% combos once he gets in...

no reward *cough*

 

[TriTails]

Kirby also is as slow as hell in Triple Delux. Wouldn't surprise me if he is really slow in this game, but hey, Triple Deluxe had infinity jumps, and thankfully no timers.

I can't think of many other characters who can combo out of their down air spike so easily.

Luigi can.

Speaking of Kirby, I can see him doing Kirbycide on Diddy for easy KOs. I mean, Diddy's recovery is rather lackuster, and his vertical recovery isn't that amazing. Though, I myself am not sure, but I think it'll work.... if you manage to inhale him somehow.

 

[HeavyLobster]

iv seem kirby get 70% combos once he gets in...

no reward *cough*

Unfortunately Mario does that better. At least Kirby is still the cutest character in the game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Unfortunately Mario does that better. At least Kirby is still the cutest character in the game.

i was not arguing who does it better iv just said what iv seen. in one combo.

and is the most cute, handsome, perfect thing in smash

 

[Kofu]

The issue with Kirby's design is that if you buff his airspeed, he steps on Jigglypuff's toes as an aerial poking character. I mean, a little buff wouldn't hurt (he's only above Ganon, Luigi, and Dedede, right?) but there's only so far you can take it. For the most part, they tried to make all characters have unique playstyles and I'm not sure what you'd do with Kirby to have him good but still make him unique.

 

[Conda]

Since Melee, Bowser was only 2 "units" heavier than DK. Bowser had quite the survivability in both games, but simply because of his notably worse recovery option, he couldn't compete there. MK didn't live forever so don't even mention him, but GW sure.

What the developers put intentionally or unintentionally isn't a problem unless it's game breaking (which besides infinite cape, wasn't a problem).

Ur right. DK has been a struggle for me to play and enjoy as the power has been stripped away from him, but then every DK main from Brawl shares the same sentiment as I do. Since most of the Smash 4 competitive group hails from Brawl, of course we're going to have a problem with this incarnation of our ape. DK is my favorite character hailing from 64 days and switching to a new character on a simple whim is a slap in the face. Character loyalty is important to me so switching to and fro isn't a reality. Now, since ur saying DK is fast, let's take a look and see his air speed is comparatively worse, ledge roll is worse, his pivot grab range is slower and worse, his hitboxes on his tilts comes out 1 frame later (with gaps), smashes have weaker/gaps/worse hitbox placement/come out slower.

DK isn't any faster from Brawl to now, so the nerf in power is beyond inexplicable. Your imaginary developers must explain why they didn't raise his mobility(in a noticeable way) at the extreme expense of his power. Brawly Kong would've translated well into this game (even without MC and the worsened DI).


Not trying to sound bogus or anything, but since you didn't play Brawly Kong, you don't necessarily have the same sentiment as others who did. Planking was something DK mains used a lot. In fact, Will was even accused of doing such an act in WHOBO 4 where he beat Rich Brown (Olimar) with such a tactic. DK's air "pressure" is throwing out bairs and frame trapping with Uair. Otherwise Nair is a subpar approach option (and gimping one), Fair is......and dair.......His ledge game is worse with the removal of ledge invincibility and ledge options for him do suck (his ledge roll is among the worst distance and lag wise). Only real ledge option is to jump or neutral. Trump is something that DK's can take advantage of, but it's so obvious that I don't see the value, unless ur playing a scrub.

All of those 'nerfs' are because he's been patched up in important ways. Up B is so much better than ever before, especially grounded. Down B is amazing now, breaks shields, and is much faster to use in bursts - you can actually fit it into your game now. It does stuff in the air now too!
His spikes are fantastic, especially since nearly everyone else's spikes that used to be dominant in brawl got reduced in effectiveness.

His bair is still a beast, his up air is one of the best, he gets follow-up rewards from throws (more than most of the other fatties), he has great ways to break shields, with still the best poke range -to- speed ratio of all of the heavies.

Also the thing that makes him definably better than the other heavies when it comes to footsies and having multiple effective options - low landing lag and end lag on aerials. No other fatty can air-to-ground the way DK does, which gives him great speedster-esque options.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Will and I spoke quite a bit about DK today and although he is displeased with DK's sour spots and how certain moves lack hitboxes, he is overall pleased wtih DK.

Next time we talk I will ask him about d-tilt because im pretty sure its unpunishable on block.

BTW he gimped me with Nair in tourney today.....soooo yeah

Maybe some of you...don't know wtf you are talking about?

Possibly?

meh, don't mind me.

If you watch will play he using nair really well off stage. But whatever guess that doesn't matter.

 

[Antonykun]

The issue with Kirby's design is that if you buff his airspeed, he steps on Jigglypuff's toes as an aerial poking character. I mean, a little buff wouldn't hurt (he's only above Ganon, Luigi, and Dedede, right?) but there's only so far you can take it. For the most part, they tried to make all characters have unique playstyles and I'm not sure what you'd do with Kirby to have him good but still make him unique.

I think an easy fix is to make Kirby's Inhale frame 5 ish and revolve him around the fact he can copy anyone.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think an easy fix is to make Kirby's Inhale frame 5 ish and revolve him around the fact he can copy anyone.

While you're at it, make it a proper command grab so you can't shield it. (Although given how shields work I guess Kirby can just sit there Inhaling forever until it breaks?)

Although I was under the impression that Kirby's copy powers kind of sucked (heh) in Smash with a few exceptions, is that because he legit doesn't get much use out of them or because it wasn't worth the risk of Inhale? (Which a buff would hopefully fix.) I mean, I can't see him getting much use out of Bowser's flame breath.

 

[bc1910]

Poor Kirby

If I was gonna try to fix Kirby with just one buff I'd give him a comboable throw. I think he'd be great if he just had his old forward throw back, because the rest of his moveset isn't bad and a threatening grab would make it more important to keep him out. His old down throw might work too if the old Fthrow were to make his grab game too good (since it allowed for some great combos in Brawl and Smash 4 has higher hitstun) but I don't think it would, really.

I don't know why Kirby of all characters doesn't have a comboable throw. He really needs to go in to get anything done. Once he does get in, you can generally shield without fear because even if you get thrown it's not gonna be very rewarding for him. Then you have characters like Mega Man and Greninja who can camp really well but still get at least one throw followup. Pikachu in particular has both an excellent grab game and a very effective zoning game. I just don't see the logic behind not allowing a character like Kirby, who has practically no zoning game, to have at least one good throw.

 

[Lavani]

While you're at it, make it a proper command grab so you can't shield it. (Although given how shields work I guess Kirby can just sit there Inhaling forever until it breaks?)

One of my fondest memories as Dedede involved trying to inhale a Mac while he stood there shielding it, then he rolled through me and hit me from behind before I could stop inhaling to put my shield up.

I'd imagine Kirby's is equally flawed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One of my fondest memories as Dedede involved trying to inhale a Mac while he stood there shielding it, then he rolled through me and hit me from behind before I could stop inhaling to put my shield up.

I'd imagine Kirby's is equally flawed.

Woah woah woah back up, I know I've tried rolling away from an Inhaling Kirby before and he caught me before the roll fully kicked in. Is rolling behind him the trick, or is it just Little Mac having insane frame data on his roll?

Also, "fondest." Right.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ally's Mario just destroyed every top tier in this game on stream.

I'm so hyped right now, excuse me while I do backflips.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Ally's Mario just destroyed every top tier in this game on stream.

I'm so hyped right now, excuse me while I do backflips.

Mario isn't particularly bad, why is this surprising?! His attacks come out quick and have little ending lag, particularly aerials

That being said I despise playing against Mario

 

[Makorel]

Ally's Mario just destroyed every top tier in this game on stream.

I'm so hyped right now, excuse me while I do backflips.

What stream was that?

 

[|RK|]

You know, I've gotta say... Two random thoughts:

1) For as much as Smash pros like making money from Smash, why don't they give paid private lessons to people? With Smash Wii U it's even easier - you have a microphone to give commentary between bouts and coach people. I'm sure there are people that would pay for that.

2) Why isn't there a single, centralizing site for tournament announcements and organization? Just a clean place that lets you know which tournaments are and are not streamed, let's you sort by location, results, etc. Too often I see that people have no idea a tournament is going on or being streamed.

Just quick thoughts.

 

[HeroMystic]

What stream was that?

EvenMatchupGaming - Neo Canada 5. Stream is done but here's the past broadcast: http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3720893?t=5h7m39s

 

[Man Li Gi]

Will and I spoke quite a bit about DK today and although he is displeased with DK's sour spots and how certain moves lack hitboxes, he is overall pleased wtih DK.

Next time we talk I will ask him about d-tilt because im pretty sure its unpunishable on block.

BTW he gimped me with Nair in tourney today.....soooo yeah

Maybe some of you...don't know wtf you are talking about?

Possibly?

meh, don't mind me.

I said Nair was buffed, and if you going with Marth, of course it's going to gimp. Will is literally the only kong main I've seen that hasn't complain (openly) yet. I guess he just rolls with the punches. I know what I'm talking about.

Simply just disappointed to how DK turned out. I will not be surprised in the years coming, DK will be relegated to the extreme niche character or unviable. In this time, where the meta is fresh, where extreme assertions can be made by non mains (and can be taken true) or people with previous knowledge on a character they specialized with, weigh in and say whatever they want and people will listen without trying it themselves. It's when the meta has staled, where people learn MUs and can truly say what's safe and what isn't. I don't claim to see the future, just notice a trend (DK was considered high tier for a while, then enlightening took place). People claim, dtilt, improper linking jab, and bair are "safe". I say "sure" to make the entire argument subside. Just know, I will be waiting for the day people come to their senses and realize DK isn't as good Brawly Kong.

All of those 'nerfs' are because he's been patched up in important ways. Up B is so much better than ever before, especially grounded. Down B is amazing now, breaks shields, and is much faster to use in bursts - you can actually fit it into your game now. It does stuff in the air now too!
His spikes are fantastic, especially since nearly everyone else's spikes that used to be dominant in brawl got reduced in effectiveness.

His bair is still a beast, his up air is one of the best, he gets follow-up rewards from throws (more than most of the other fatties), he has great ways to break shields, with still the best poke range -to- speed ratio of all of the heavies.

Also the thing that makes him definably better than the other heavies when it comes to footsies and having multiple effective options - low landing lag and end lag on aerials. No other fatty can air-to-ground the way DK does, which gives him great speedster-esque options.

KD3 has better grab rewards than DK...his Up B is notably weaker in terms of damage output and is worse on block. 14 extra frames of end lag on DownB don't make it anything more than a mixup. His dair and fair have awful endlag and landing lag.

You know, I've gotta say... Two random thoughts:

1) For as much as Smash pros like making money from Smash, why don't they give paid private lessons to people? With Smash Wii U it's even easier - you have a microphone to give commentary between bouts and coach people. I'm sure there are people that would pay for that.

2) Why isn't there a single, centralizing site for tournament announcements and organization? Just a clean place that lets you know which tournaments are and are not streamed, let's you sort by location, results, etc. Too often I see that people have no idea a tournament is going on or being streamed.

Just quick thoughts.

1) is a great idea
2)........you're on SB where that info is all available.

 

[|RK|]

1) is a great idea
2)........you're on SB where that info is all available.

I suppose my issue is the format its in, then. It's just not as clean as I'd expect? Not like I could do better, but.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm honestly not surprised with Mario winning. Mario is pretty good outside of low damage and only main KO move being Usmash.

 

[TriTails]

I'm honestly not surprised with Mario winning. Mario is pretty good outside of low damage and only main KO move being Usmash.

And bad recovery.

Then.... can we all agree on Luigi's biggest problem (And probably the only one, aside from range) is his mobility? Same goes with Kirby?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Ally's Mario just destroyed every top tier in this game on stream.

I'm so hyped right now, excuse me while I do backflips.

Dose this make mario top tier? no really? i mean is it not the gerenral concensus that having good MU's against top tiers and other character from other tiers the basis of being top tier in a form?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dose this make mario top tier? no really? i mean is it not the gerenral concensus that having good MU's against top tiers and other character from other tiers the basis of being top tier in a form?

Watching those matches, Ally proves they're winnable matchups if you basically have Mango level reaction time, at which point you're just playing a completely different game from everyone else.

Seriously, I'm just honestly baffled by how ridiculous he is at this game. He makes reads that honestly shouldn't exist, but again, once you reach a certain level of reaction time, it's not even the same game anymore.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Watching those matches, Ally proves they're winnable matchups if you basically have Mango level reaction time, at which point you're just playing a completely different game from everyone else.

Seriously, I'm just honestly baffled by how ridiculous he is at this game. He makes reads that honestly shouldn't exist, but again, once you reach a certain level of reaction time, it's not even the same game anymore.

yea it was like crazy the things he did out of hit comfirms that i generally thought were going no where.

also, when will people stop walking into mario's u smash man. its god tier don't challenge it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean, Ally right now literally is the best Smash 4 player at just waiting, because nobody outreacts him. That was like at least half of where he got KOs. He didn't have any safe setups, just nobody can really deal with how precise he is.

NAKAT actually played extremely well and probably could have won, just his opponent in grand finals was Ally...

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Man Li Gi

I'm not a fool. I know he is lacking. The question is do those nerfs disallow him to do what he always done. Slow the game and force opponents to deal with his buttons. Time will tell.

Also I was playing Sheik not Marth. Dunno if that matters in terms of match-up relevance.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Man Li Gi

I'm not a fool. I know he is lacking. The question is do those nerfs disallow him to do what he always done. Slow the game and force opponents to deal with his buttons. Time will tell.

Also I was playing Sheik not Marth. Dunno if that matters in terms of match-up relevance.

This wasn't like...a ledge snap punish was it? Because punishing Sheik for sweetspotting the ledge imo is probably going to be her biggest problem as the metagame develops. I mean, universal ledge snap vulnerability affects everyone, but I'd say Sheik probably out of everyone is most noticeably affected by this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah it was teams. My partner was gone. He had 2 stocks to my one. He literally just went deep as all hell and pressed the A button. I didn't imagine he would go THAT far down.

 

[thehard]

Apex is gonna be a bloodbath

 

[Pazx]

I think Ally also has the mental side of the game down better than anybody, I didn't watch singles but in doubles of both Brawl and Sm4sh he went through the losers bracket and come grand finals he was a better player.

I don't expect him to place top 8 at Apex without using Diddy Kong (although his pocket Diddy isn't great), his Mario will likely hold him back.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Vinnie, Nairo, Will, False, Raptor, Keitaro and even Malcolm were in attendance to this tourney. All Apex practice for them.

My heart broke when I saw Will lose to Diddy though. Died to at like 40ish to Diddy uairs on Delfino. Got caught on top platform.

Such garbage.