Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

The main weakness for Diddy people tried pointing out was "He can't recover when low"
So Diddy players just started recovering from high up charging their barrels and being able to write their names in the air before landing on the stage.

Seriously it's kinda ridiculous how easy it was to fix this "weakness" Even if they're below the stage they still can charge just enough to write at least one letter of their name in the air before grabbing the ledge, and unless you have recovery like pikachu you're definitely not going that low to try and hit him while he's charging.

It's not that easy all the opponent has to do is stand at the ledge and react to what he's doing. You can see up b coming from a mile away.

 

[Trifroze]

Yes.

Highest Knockback Spikes:
1. Ganon dair
2. Ganon Wizard's Foot/Assualt
3. DK fair
4. DK dair
5. Diddy dair

Is there a similar list for hitstun instead of knockback? That's arguably the most important thing in meteors.

Also Ganondorf's kill potential is getting vastly overrated here, on average he's probably gonna get a KO in 7-8 hits at 100-120%. His jab and dash attack knockback were decreased, and on-stage stomp is now fairly useless thanks to no more stomp SH AC and the bouncing mechanic on meteors.

On the other hand, his fair is a lot better now and one of his custom up specials kills at ridiculously low percents and can be used OoS in a lot of cases. Ganondorf is one of those characters that becomes a lot better with customs because of that and especially the fact his recovery becomes legitimately good. Makes me jealous as a Falcon main, who didn't get any customs to extend his horizontal recovery (Dash Falcon Punch has too much startup and endlag to work well).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Is there a similar list for hitstun instead of knockback? That's arguably the most important thing in meteors.

Also Ganondorf's kill potential is getting vastly overrated here, on average he's probably gonna get a KO in 7-8 hits at 100-120%. His jab and dash attack knockback were decreased, and on-stage stomp is now fairly useless thanks to no more stomp SH AC and the bouncing mechanic on meteors.

On the other hand, his fair is a lot better now and one of his custom up specials kills at ridiculously low percents and can be used OoS in a lot of cases. Ganondorf is one of those characters that becomes a lot better with customs because of that and especially the fact his recovery becomes legitimately good. Makes me jealous as a Falcon main, who didn't get any customs to extend his horizontal recovery (Dash Falcon Punch has too much startup and endlag to work well).

Damage building and actual KO confirms from Flame Choke and legitimate juggle and edgeguard options are a big reason Ganondorf's KO power really isn't a joke. Also in hard read situations, he does actually kill really retardedly early. Ganon F-smash and U-smash can never be slept on when landing them can often seal a stock anywhere from 60-80%. In fact just generally speaking, it's really hard to just emphasize the extent to which virtually nobody wants to get hit by Ganondorf offstage. It's just easier to say Ganondorf probably will kill you if he touches you offstage.

I don't think it's really a stretch to argue that Ganondorf is overall the most lethal character in the game when he gets rolling. He has massive damage, a number of moves with both great range and knockback, and he even has consistent juggles and edgeguards that kill early.

Also, while D-air is worse in this game, it's definitely nowhere near useless. It has to be respected, and even good players will miss the tech sometimes. Dash Attack while weaker as a KO move is MUCH better overall because the angle change on the knockback puts Ganondorf in a better position for followups, which is one of the most unnoticed reasons why Ganondorf is really scary when he gets in. Jab does suck and if Ganondorf gets one buff, I would want a more useful Jab.

 

[Neoleo21]

Anyone have any thoughts on Diddy's Uthrow -> Uair combo? Diddy's up throw has ridiculously low ending lag and can combo into Uair for the kill at even lower percentages than down throw. Leffen has pointed this out before. It didn't matter much before 1.0.4 because of upward vectoring being so much stronger but now, I think we'd see an influx of Up Throw -> Uair Diddies if Uair was nerfed. Uair would need a serious knockback nerf to prevent Up Throw -> Uair from killing.

I'm worried it's gonna turn into a situation where it won't matter if Diddy can do Dthrow -> Uair because of the Uthrow variant. The Uthrow variant is a lot less versatile (and doesn't really work online, for whatever that's worth (which I realise is not much)) but it's still there, and I'm pretty sure Diddy can follow the opponent's DI to confirm kills no matter where they go.

So, Nintendo has to nerf diddy to the ground to save the competitive scene? Great, its like MK if MK were accessible to just pressing 6 buttons. He beats everything, has multiple ways to get what he wants and can recover just fine, no need for variance either so he's boring to watch and play against even with customs, I suppose it would help if Uair knockback staled much quicker but it doesn't. There isn't going to be a drop in his appearance until Nintendo makes it so, which a patch might happen with Mewtwo since it'll be past APEX and Rain and Diddy's rising usage in Japan will make them consider it. But if there isn't I don't foresee this game lasting even with customs.

 

[David Viran]

Why are so many people already asking for balance patches mostly to nerf Diddy? Shouldn't we like let the meta develop for longer before calling for patches. There will always be that one character who is better than the rest and everybody complains about. A lot of people argue that sheik is better anyway.

 

[Neoleo21]

Why are so many people already asking for balance patches mostly to nerf Diddy? Shouldn't we like let the meta develop for longer before calling for patches. There will always be that one character who is better than the rest and everybody complains about. A lot of people argue that sheik is better anyway.

The frame data says this one move is ridiculously powerful and has it all even making other moves on the character not needed most of the time, if that's not grounds for a patch in any case I don't know what is.

 

[dragontamer]

The frame data says this one move is ridiculously powerful and has it all even making other moves on the character not needed most of the time, if that's not grounds for a patch in any case I don't know what is.

Frame data is telling me that Jigglypuff's Bair is stronger than all of Diddy's options, including Diddy's FSmash.

I'm not sure if I'm reading the same frame data as you. I'm sure Diddy is a strong character, but lets not hype characters where they're not actually strong. Diddy is strong because his bananna forces grabs, his grabs are strong punishes with easy combos, and his aerials have good speed and priority.

But when it comes to straight upf rame data, the monsters are Samus, Mario, Luigi, Little Mac and Dr. Mario. Samus with a 10-frame FSmash with huge KO potential, Mario the speed demon and so forth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Diddy's frame data isn't that crazy. It's his hitboxes, good damage, and ability to cover options that's scary.

I mean it's still numbers at the end of the day.

Just DIFFERENT numbers.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think the 'lists' right now give range indications, if they had (I can see them myself), you'd be cringing a bit more at diddy's numbers.
Jigglypuff bair has awkward start up and hitboxes. Look at the auto cancels and landing lag combinations of Diddy's aerials too. I don't think people realise how nearly all of diddy's aerials act with the benefits of neutral airs (massive hitbox sizes centred towards the body, low landing lag + great auto cancels, long durations, low start up) while having the positive inclinations of bizarre range with them horizontally and vertically and none of the shortcomings other characters have with similar aerials, just going by the move data.

Diddy's down tilt is possibly the single greatest tilt of all Smash-time (can't think of a better dtilt at least). 4 frame start up, combos into itself, safe on shield, outranges Marth* and will be comboing guaranteed into kill moves even close to 200%, and anywhere from where a near ground fair or uair will (so around 110-120%). There's a few dtilts that are kinda similar (Ike and Olis) which are a lot more start up, higher growths and on MUCH less mobile characters, heh.

Diddy's down tilt (Size=4.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=2.250000, X=16.000000)
That's stretching to 20.2 units, for comparison Marth's shieldbreaker (his most ranged move and fortunately centred on his body for easy comparison) has a 1 frame burst at 29.5 units but the rest of the time is 27.5 units. Shieldbreaker is about 40%+ longer in range than the rest of Marth's moveset.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why are so many people already asking for balance patches mostly to nerf Diddy? Shouldn't we like let the meta develop for longer before calling for patches. There will always be that one character who is better than the rest and everybody complains about. A lot of people argue that sheik is better anyway.

A balance patch would benefit this game and character variety substantially. Diddy nerfs are obviously warranted, and Sheik, Pika, and Sonic probably warrant a few nerfs as well. There are also some clearly underpowered characters like Kirby, Doc, and Zelda that need buffs, but there's a lot of gray areas in the middle where things are unclear as to what changes need to be made. You're probably right that it would make sense to wait and let things develop because of how much we don't know, but no one wants to wait when all the top players are jumping on the Diddy bandwagon.

 

[HeroMystic]

To me, The concept of balance patches doesn't matter until it actually happens.

 

[warionumbah2]

Kirby and Doc benefit from customs so they don't need buffs, Zelda is just...... Zelda. I prefer not to have anymore patches since we may get unnecessary nerfs on other characters(Little Mac and Greninja), if Diddy got nerfed and everyone remains the same I'll be cool with that also.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think the 'lists' right now give range indications, if they had (I can see them myself), you'd be cringing a bit more at diddy's numbers.
Jigglypuff bair has awkward start up and hitboxes. Look at the auto cancels and landing lag combinations of Diddy's aerials too. I don't think people realise how nearly all of diddy's aerials act with the benefits of neutral airs (massive hitbox sizes centred towards the body, low landing lag + great auto cancels, long durations, low start up) while having the positive inclinations of bizarre range with them horizontally and vertically and none of the shortcomings other characters have with similar aerials, just going by the move data.

Diddy's down tilt is possibly the single greatest tilt of all Smash-time (can't think of a better dtilt at least). 4 frame start up, combos into itself, safe on shield and will be comboing guaranteed into kill moves even close to 200%, and anywhere from where a near ground fair or uair will (so around 110-120%). There's a few dtilts that are kinda similar (Ike and Olis) which are a lot more start up, higher growths and on MUCH less mobile characters, heh.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but evidently you haven't seen this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4tktxmnHf0

If you're gonna talk of all Smash-time, I would have to then seriously point at Snake F-tilt.

 

[Asdioh]

I don't think the 'lists' right now give range indications, if they had (I can see them myself), you'd be cringing a bit more at diddy's numbers.
Jigglypuff bair has awkward start up and hitboxes. Look at the auto cancels and landing lag combinations of Diddy's aerials too. I don't think people realise how nearly all of diddy's aerials act with the benefits of neutral airs (massive hitbox sizes centred towards the body, low landing lag + great auto cancels, long durations, low start up) while having the positive inclinations of bizarre range with them horizontally and vertically and none of the shortcomings other characters have with similar aerials, just going by the move data.

Diddy's down tilt is possibly the single greatest tilt of all Smash-time (can't think of a better dtilt at least). 4 frame start up, combos into itself, safe on shield, outranges Marth* and will be comboing guaranteed into kill moves even close to 200%, and anywhere from where a near ground fair or uair will (so around 110-120%). There's a few dtilts that are kinda similar (Ike and Olis) which are a lot more start up, higher growths and on MUCH less mobile characters, heh.

Diddy's down tilt (Size=4.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=2.250000, X=16.000000)
That's stretching to 20.2 units, for comparison Marth's shieldbreaker (his most ranged move and fortunately centred on his body for easy comparison) has a 1 frame burst at 29.5 units but the rest of the time is 27.5 units. Shieldbreaker is about 40%+ longer in range than the rest of his moveset.

The data you're looking at tells you the range and hitbox data? That's interesting. (oh you edited your post as I quoted you)
I know that this pastebin mentions partial invincibility, but I don't believe it tells us about disjoints yet. I'm interested in someday seeing the disjoints of moves like Ness' Nair.

I know I was testing Kirby Bair vs Diddy Fair, since they both have the same 6 frame startup. I was wondering why the characters would trade hits while up close, but Kirby would get hit from a farther distance, while Diddy was untouched. Tested Diddy's F-air out on a Bobomb, turns out it's disjointed at the end, because if you blow up the bomb with the very tip of F-air, Diddy goes untouched. That's probably common knowledge to Diddy mains, but it's like... why. Either the move was given disjointed hitboxes intentionally, or the hitbox is simply bigger than intended, and goes past his visible hurtbox. At least, that's the way I understand it?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Snake ftilt or Utilt. But I think shaya meant to say the best Down tilt of all time. Being the best tilt he'd be wrong by a long shot.

 

[Kofu]

Best tilt may not be too far off because of its speed and ability to combo into other attacks. As far as range, though? Snake's have probably got them beat easily.

 

[ZHMT]

Kirbys ssb64 up tilt gets my vote. Was worse than Snakes imo.

Also, if they kept Diddys overly large fair hitbox but didn't make it autocancel frame 25 for some reason I wouldn't mind it.. make it autocancel on 35 or something.

 

[Ffamran]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but evidently you haven't seen this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4tktxmnHf0

If you're gonna talk of all Smash-time, I would have to then seriously point at Snake F-tilt.

Snake ftilt or Utilt. But I think shaya meant to say the best Down tilt of all time. Being the best tilt he'd be wrong by a long shot.

Or of this game rather than all the SSBs. Also, what about 64 Kirby's Utilt?

Edit: 'd.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake ftilt or Utilt. But I think shaya meant to say the best Down tilt of all time. Being the best tilt he'd be wrong by a long shot.

If we're talking D-tilts, I'd look at Melee personally. That game has a lot of really good D-tilts. Like say, Mewtwo's for instance if I recall is especially crazy. Then the spacies, Marth, Roy, G&W, Samus all have amazing D-tilts.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Or of this game rather of all the SSBs. Also, what about 64 Kirby's Utilt?

Edit: 'd.

I was aware of Kirby's gigantic hitbox but I'm not sure on how fast, but from the looks of the gif, doubt it is compared to other characters or the two snake ones.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

One of the things that invalidated Wesker in umvc3 was Vergil. He was basically Wesker but better in every way. So if diddy is Wesker whose vergil? I believe we need buffs to characters like marth shulk and MK. Give them more range less landing lag and cut shulks start up on everything in half. Another cause of Weskers downfall was the rise of Morrigan and Zero. So I say buff Rosalina bring back IC give falco his laser back. Buff link Tlink and Samus also. So that we get characters that can flood the screen buff MM also. Since Zero da bess in umvc3 it only makes sense for mm to be the best and give MM hidden missiles while we're at it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I believe we need buffs to characters like marth shulk and MK. Give them more range less landing lag and cut shulks start up on everything in half.

Didn't Shulk already get a damage buff on literally every move in his kit in 1.0.4? I agree his startup and endlag on basically everything is booty but I'm not convinced he needs another global buff of any sort.

 

[Djent]

I'm actually leery of balance patches because I think they'd result in Pikachu literally becoming Satan. From 1.0.4, it appears Nintendo just doesn't realize how good the rat already was/is. If everyone else in the top tier gets nerfed and he remains the same...hoo boy.

Anyway, I think Diddy will remain in the top 5, but I also think Sheik, Pikachu, and maybe Sonic are all better characters that can make the game miserable in ways that are equally or more effective as Diddy's. Diddy will always have his janky UAir and godlike neutral game, so if he is to be displaced it will be by (a) character(s) that make us even more miserable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm actually leery of balance patches because I think they'd result in Pikachu literally becoming Satan. From 1.0.4, it appears Nintendo just doesn't realize how good the rat already was/is. If everyone else in the top tier gets nerfed and he remains the same...hoo boy.

Anyway, I think Diddy will remain in the top 5, but I also think Sheik, Pikach, and maybe Sonic are all better characters that can make the game miserable in ways that are equally or more effective as Diddy's. Diddy will always have his janky UAir and godlike neutral game, so if he is to be displaced it will be by (a) character(s) that make us even more miserable.

Well IIRC Sakurai said in an interview after 1.0.4 that there was an (unnamed) character that the devs thought was sort of meh but was doing surprisingly well in practice. It's unclear if they meant For Glory or offline results, but the point stands that they're at least somewhat aware of how the tiers are shaping up.

Whether they care enough to do another patch is a separate matter, of course.

 

[HeroMystic]

Anyway, I think Diddy will remain in the top 5, but I also think Sheik, Pikach, and maybe Sonic are all better characters that can make the game miserable in ways that are equally or more effective as Diddy's. Diddy will always have his janky UAir and godlike neutral game, so if he is to be displaced it will be by (a) character(s) that make us even more miserable.

So Diddy is our lord and savior?

 

[Shaya]

Eh, Snake's up tilt sure.
But I rated MK's ftilt as better than Snake's ftilt.
I wouldn't be surprised if Diddy's dtilt leaded into kills at similar practicalities to Snake's up tilt though. And his up tilt was laggy enough on shield to punish.

 

[mimgrim]

Everyone talking about balance patches.

And here I am hoping we won't be getting anymore.

 

[Djent]

So Diddy is our lord and savior?

To continue the Wesker analogy: people hated him at the time he dominated everything, but eventually they'd cheer for him whenever Chris G picked him. When they saw what the "endgame" looked like, they desperately wished for the "terrors" of the early game to return.

 

[Pazx]

Didn't Sakurai confirm no more balance patches? I'm sure I read that here somewhere and it's like nobody else did.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Didn't Sakurai confirm no more balance patches? I'm sure I read that here somewhere and it's like nobody else did.

He said there were "no current plans" at the time (which IIRC was shortly after the Wii U release), not that there would be no more patches ever.

Given that Mewtwo will require a patch just to get him in the game, I don't think it's unreasonable that they may squeeze in a few other things. Maybe not likely, but not unreasonable.

 

[Antonykun]

Didn't Sakurai confirm no more balance patches? I'm sure I read that here somewhere and it's like nobody else did.

Sakurai says things and does other things soooooo....

 

[Pazx]

I'm hesitant using the word "confirm" in regards to Sakurai but I really think we need to stop talking about balance patches that may not happen. It's not like our suggestions are going to be considered for them either way, we have a game as it is and whether Diddy warrants a nerf or not we need to focus on what we have in front of us.

I would laugh if Diddy was nerfed just before Evo, that'd be brilliant.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm figuring the Mewtwo patch will be it for any balance changes to happen. Since they'll be testing him to make sure he's reasonably balanced, I wouldn't be surprised if they took one last opportunity to fine tune a couple of other things. Whether it happens or not, we'll move on and continue developing the metagame.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Didn't Sakurai confirm no more balance patches? I'm sure I read that here somewhere and it's like nobody else did.

Sakurai said there were no plans at the time to implement balance patches. He also said there were no plans for DLC while he was working on the game, so I think it really means he's preoccupied with the task at hand and not thinking about it. Since everyone's asking for balance patches just like they were asking for Mewtwo we'll probably get one sooner or later.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Didn't Shulk already get a damage buff on literally every move in his kit in 1.0.4? I agree his startup and endlag on basically everything is booty but I'm not convinced he needs another global buff of any sort.

Yeah but damage was like to 1-2 percent .

 

[Nu~]

Which adds up. It's a lot in the long run

 

[Nobie]

I sometimes see people saying now that Diddy over-centralizes Smash 4 in a way that none of the Melee characters do individually. Is this actually the case, or is it just people claiming the sky is falling?

 

[HeroMystic]

Sky is falling.

 

[Nu~]

People will jump off the diddy train once they realize the horrible things other characters can do to him to interrupt his usual game plan
pac-man

Then diddy users won't be able to win with 4 moves and eventually the meta will grow to learn how to combat him. Just look at Ally's Mario, crushing diddy's left and right. He's not an unstoppable force. (Although ally is unnaturally good)

 

[Kofu]

People will jump off the diddy train once they realize the horrible things other characters can do to him to interrupt his usual game plan
pac-man

Then diddy users won't be able to win with 4 moves and eventually the meta will grow to learn how to combat him. Just look at Ally's Mario, crushing diddy's left and right. He's not an unstoppable force. (Although ally is unnaturally good)

You just have to pick a bigger monkey against Ally, don't worry.