Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

Obviously u haven't seen Oco Le Troof, because the man plays like Bowsers should play (spacing and boxing out chars). Comparatively, Bowser has average-above average air speed. BEST bair in the game? Who told you such? It does have good range and great edge guarding abilities, but so does Bowsers (obviously not as long lasting). His range is good but outclassed. Dk relies and needs spacing while Bowser is perfectly capable without it. It's true DK does have superior edge play. Hand Slap is, as aforementioned, is great on the edge, but mid stage and space control I disagree thanks to 14 extra frames of lag. It's true that DK relies on frame traps, but some of staple setups (bair-uair, jab dsmash , Sk dsmash) are gone. Those setups in conjunction with the power he once had was the prime reason Dk was even considered somewhat usable.

Statistcally this would make sence but ur failing to take into account smash 4 engine alows his preformace to be enhaned anyway. Almost everything on mario was nerfed but here he is being considered top 10 fir whatever reason.

regardless i feel dk just fruntionally has less commitment than bowser its even said in the tips.

and in terms of bowser player i Feel the best player iv seen currently playing him is exist.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi's recovery isn't 'easily gimpable' I wonder when people will stop saying that.

Let me get this straight. You knocked me far, and you are trying to egeguard me. But then I just Cyclone out of the hitstun and rise really high, then proceeding to return to the stage by air dodging and aerials everything, maybe even another Nado. Unless you are named ZSS or Yoshi, maybe Jiggly, I cannot see on how you can gimp me this way. Before you can reach Luigi, he is already out of the end lag, and is ready to counter everything you throw at him. The only exception would be when semi-spiked, but then again, he has a lot of mixups in his recovery (Especially jumpless Cyclone) and I don't get the bandwagon of 'Luigi is easily gimpable'. Gimping Ness was hard, Luigi is even harder. Especially with Ganon's poor aerial mobility.

He forces Ganon to approach with Fireballs. Fireballs stop WizFoot and FlaChoke, and when Ganon is clashing from WizFoot, a free grab. If he tries to Side-b his way in, then he is going to take lot of damage, and Luigi can just get out if the way quite easily. Something Mario cannot do as effectively because of his laggy Fireballs compared to Luigi's.

And a few solid capitalize on Ganon's mistake, it's checkmate for him.

I don't think you really understand how Ganon's edgeguarding works. He doesn't gimp you. He just straight up ****ing murders you offstage.

Ganondorf actually has very good physics and aerials for edgeguarding. His hitboxes are massive, and his aerials don't actually have that much ending lag in the air. Keep in mind, Luigi himself doesn't have great mobility when recovering. Most of the time against Ganondorf at some point, he's forced to guess his way around with airdodges to get back safely. Ganondorf has a lot of ways to punish this, either by just frame trapping the airdodge with U-air (because his U-air actually has good enough frame data for that), or if he feels confident, he might just D-air you at the end of your airdodge.

The point that's being made is that, Ganondorf in fact covers options offstage a lot better than most characters do, which is scary when you consider that getting hit by him offstage is likely to just mean you get outright KOed.

So no, I never said he was gimping Luigi. I said he would juggle and edgeguard him (and coming from Ganon, that's more than enough to theoretically get easy KOs).

But who cares, as I stated, the matchup is clearly lame for Ganondorf by design until they decide to nerf Luigi's Fireballs or something. It's winnable for Ganon just in terms of sheer juggle/offstage KO potential, but clearly uphill.

 

[NairWizard]

Luigi can be a complex character to place; we've seen people put him in top 5, and we've seen people put him in bottom 5. Understanding Mario and Dr. Mario might help us understand Luigi a little better though.

One of the reasons that Mario is so good in this game compared to previous iterations is that Mario's airspeed relative to the cast is excellent now (he is 6th, just below Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, and Greninja; by comparison, Brawl Mario was 19th). Despite some attacks with mediocre range, Mario isn't susceptible to getting walled out any more. This is why when Mario spaces his fireballs you might find yourself puzzled as to how you can get in against him. The fireballs are weak and Mario doesn't have a lot of range. What gives? The hidden stat is airspeed. The fact that he can pull back and move forward while throwing fireballs from the air and then throw out an aerial with his quick startups makes him pretty dangerous in neutral.

The reason that Dr. Mario isn't good compared to Mario is not because of the up-b or combos, but because Dr. Mario spacing pills just isn't as effective as Mario spacing fireballs: Dr. Mario is 35th/36th on the airspeed tier list (tied with Pikachu, who is saved from being walled out, by the way, by Tjolt, Quick Attack, and an abnormally large d-tilt/up-tilt). You have plenty of time to duck/dodge the pills and get in on the good doctor. His neutral is correspondingly much worse than Mario's.

Luigi's air speed is somehow even worse than that, though--he's 2nd from the bottom, at 47th rank. This bad air speed combined with his traction on the ground means that he has a hard time getting in when a character wants to keep him out, even characters who are not particularly well equipped to do so. An example: Pikachu is not great at walling characters out, but from experience I know that I can effectively wall Luigi out with Pikachu most of the time just by spacing d-tilts, f-airs, tjolts, and up-airs. Whenever Luigi gets close I can mix up an escape option with Skull Bash or QA (even on Battlefield, there's edgecanceling, so Luigi isn't safe anywhere). I won't speak for the entire cast, but at the least Sheik and Diddy can do similar things.

Luigi's recovery is not as big of a problem as his mobility; if you are consistently gimping Luigis then the Luigis aren't recovering correctly.

Overall, Luigi is not too bad in disadvantage, between a great n-air, b-reverse, and cyclone. In advantage, we all know how beastly Luigi can be. But I think it's an overstatement to say that he's great in neutral, especially if the claim is that his neutral is better than Mario's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm aware of Mario's supposed high air speed given I play the character. He also still suffers from having a terrible F-air and a below average DA, and his fireballs can be swatted easily. I don't understand how people deny how serious of a problem this is in neutral (these kinds of weaknesses are a big reason why DK has never been amazing). Characters still can legitimately keep him out, and keeping in mind Mario really only gets good damage on very specific moves or setups, once you learn to just simply not let him use certain moves, a lot of his threat hardly exists. Playing as and against Mario, I've run into several games that just revolve around the fact Mario loses so much power when his opponent resets towards the ledge constantly, and then he's forced to get KOs at around 150% with B-throw against most of the cast. No, N-air and Cape edgeguards don't address this generally speaking.

Luigi has some extremely bad matchups I agree because of his highly specific strengths. Little Mac counters him hard, while both Mario and Doc win very slightly against Mac. I would argue as a whole, Luigi's neutral game however is more consistent, and safer than Mario's, and is thus better. He has a nearly perfect zoning plan, with a nearly unpunishable projectile, and fast pokes to compliment it and insane grab reward is icing on the cake.

 

[TriTails]

Fireballs has great priority, and will cancel out a lot of projectiles. Trust me, it has a lot more priority than it looks.

And people who wall him out? Cyclone and beat everything they throw out unless you are named Yoshi or Jiggly and their N-air. Cyclone breaks a lot of projectiles in the air as well.

And.... some people say LM counters Luigi, while some people say Luigi counters LM....

WTF? I think he can just Nado through his F-tilt (Or just plain dash attack to the lag because they come out at same frame), and shieldgrab or spotgrab his other approach options. Side-b and Neutral-b is easy to dodge, and his dash attack is countered by spotgrab hard, and his grab range is even shorter than Luigi (I think).

And those smashes also countered heavily by spotdodges, and two or three grabs and it's checkmate.

Not sure what makes LM threatening to Luigi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nado is like...10 frames? LM F-tilt is 4 frames. Nope, you don't get to Nado through it if he's playing footsies correctly, and worst case scenario he often clashes harmlessly and still remains at an advantage in neutral. LM will not DA in neutral if he has a brain. Yes he has terrible grab range, but who cares? Most of his stuff is safe on block.

Spotdodge his Smashes? Not gonna work against his D-smash before he Jabs 90% of the time. Furthermore sounds like a great idea to gamble if he's charging it. Let's not get into how impossible it is for Luigi to actually deal with D-smash when getting up from the ledge because his floaty ledgejump is completely unable to punish it.

LM counters Luigi pretty convincingly. Literally has all the tools necessary to basically never get hit in this matchup. Luigi due to his floaty physics also does a fairly poor job of gimping Mac and covering his options meaning Mac is actually a lot more likely to survive being put offstage in this matchup.

 

[TriTails]

LM F-tilts a lot -> Luigi completely wrecks it with proper Cyclone execution to the end lag. Using Cyclone when in his F-tilt range would be pretty braindead.

LM walks, and F-tilt if he sees danger -> Believe it or not, dash attack can be used as an unpredictable option. Running Cyclone is also fast. Spamming Fireballs slowly, but surely hits LM in his F-tilt end lag. F-tilt isn't safe on Fireballs, since Luigi can fire them faster than LM can F-tilt.

He jabs? Free surprise 'barely above the ground' Nado. Plus, if he is completely just hold the A button, Luigi's U-smash outranges it, believe it or not, a CPU literally did this to me.

To avoid his constant D-smashes, fall off then IMMEDIATELY jumped Cyclone, you should rise a bit, before you lands on the ground. Should work, given you get the timing right. And unless I"m missing something, a simple ledgeclimb should work with proper timing. I do recall LM's D-smash is F10 and again, there's tht little end lag.

Nope, being floaty =/= can't edgeguard. Then that would mean Kirby and Rosalina can't edgeguard. If you can't gimp a LM with Luigi then you are doing something wrong. Just let him come closer and smack him. Bait a Counter if needed.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Whose Dair meteor is the easiest to land? I want to say Marth/Lucina, Palutena, or Samus's since they cover a wide arc, but then there's DK's giant foot...

I'd have to say Falcon, DK's, or Charizard's imo. Falcon's has always been silky smooth once you get it down pat I don't really know how to explain it. DK as you mentioned as that giant foot. Charizard's dair sweetspot is quite liberal and you can an extra jump to space it out (for non spiking purposes, it kinda sucks though.) The easiest and most risk free meteor of all time though is Link's meteor bombs. I can't wait til we can play with customs, meteor bombs alllll day.

 

[HeroMystic]

Anyone who says Mario has a poor neutral game needs to start playing Mario correctly.

Edit:

Okay, so I'll explain this further.

@ NairWizard is correct in attributing Mario's airspeed as the reason why his neutral game is so good. Couple this with his fast aerials, and you have a character that has sub-par range but quick agility to stay out of a character's range while getting bits of damage in.

The best example I have is against a pretty good DK player at the weekly I go to. Second match of the set, first stocks, he lived at 220% until I grabbed him at used B-throw and he lost that stock.

220%, that's gotta be like a new record right?

Well how was my damage as Mario? 60%. DK, the character that can shield break you in three hits, some pretty good mobility, and can kill you at sub-100% couldn't take my first stock past 60% as Mario and he lived until 220%. Yeah, we can poke fun at DK's poor F-air as being the reason if you'd like (even though his b-air more than makes up for it), but I find this to be a running theme as Mario against other characters as well, including Sonic and Sheik, the latter having the best f-air in the game, period.

Mario's strengths doesn't nessecarily make him a good spacing character, but it does make him a good microspacing character. In a way, he's a lesser Brawl Marth. You attack with the tip of his attacks to get hit confirm, go in for your offensive reward, then back off when you feel that advantage is withering. I imagine anyone who is a good Mario player can actually be a good Marth player as well.

Oh, and DK's second stock only lasted at roughly 110% because I U-Smashed him from a T&C platform and then I got an Up-B to kill, then after that I got a U-Smash kill at 130% with rage. So lets just drop the "Mario can't kill" shenanigans, okay?

 

[TriTails]

Luigi can be a complex character to place; we've seen people put him in top 5, and we've seen people put him in bottom 5. Understanding Mario and Dr. Mario might help us understand Luigi a little better though.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait wait. (Doctor) Mario play the same like Luigi now?

I don't get on how understanding (Doctor) Mario can help understanding Luigi better, the Marios are almost completely different characters from Luigi, and they play very... differently. Their stats are also not similiar, either ('Cept for dashing and walking speed).

Oh and also, Luigi seem to have nice neutral. His Fireballs float, thus covering both ground and air (Something that Mario cannot do) and he has fast aerials (Mario only has his B-air to attack reliably on the front, while Luigi has his F-air and B-air). This makes him almost unapproachable, while Mario is approachable in the air, though it'll require some good reads. The ending lag on Luigi's Fireballs are also very short. Can this make Luigi at least 'decent' in neutral?

Though.... I apologize if I understand your post wrong. I myself am in the middle of school, and still learning English, so excuse me if I get your post wrong.

 

[Smog Frog]

Anyone who says Mario has a poor neutral game needs to start playing Mario correctly.

Edit:

Okay, so I'll explain this further.

@ NairWizard is correct in attributing Mario's airspeed as the reason why his neutral game is so good. Couple this with his fast aerials, and you have a character that has sub-par range but quick agility to stay out of a character's range while getting bits of damage in.

The best example I have is against a pretty good DK player at the weekly I go to. Second match of the set, first stocks, he lived at 220% until I grabbed him at used B-throw and he lost that stock.

220%, that's gotta be like a new record right?

Well how was my damage as Mario? 60%. DK, the character that can shield break you in three hits, some pretty good mobility, and can kill you at sub-100% couldn't take my first stock past 60% as Mario and he lived until 220%. Yeah, we can poke fun at DK's poor F-air as being the reason if you'd like (even though his b-air more than makes up for it), but I find this to be a running theme as Mario against other characters as well, including Sonic and Sheik, the latter having the best f-air in the game, period.

Mario's strengths doesn't nessecarily make him a good spacing character, but it does make him a good microspacing character. In a way, he's a lesser Brawl Marth. You attack with the tip of his attacks to get hit confirm, go in for your offensive reward, then back off when you feel that advantage is withering. I imagine anyone who is a good Mario player can actually be a good Marth player as well.

Oh, and DK's second stock only lasted at roughly 110% because I U-Smashed him from a T&C platform and then I got an Up-B to kill, then after that I got a U-Smash kill at 130% with rage. So lets just drop the "Mario can't kill" shenanigans, okay?

marthio anyone?

 

[Emblem Lord]

The moment a Mario player starts jumping around with aerials all willy nilly with Marth, is the moment they realize they made a GRIEVOUS error.

 

[warionumbah2]

Saying Mario can't kill despite how fast he racks up damage with little to no difficulty(input wise)is almost as bad as saying MK lost kill power from brawl or has less kill options. Never change Smash community never change.

 

[TriTails]

Ha. And there I thought Mario and Luigi are going to be a mere mid tier since 3DS days. Meta sure evolve. Not neccesarily fast, but noticeable.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Saying Mario can't kill despite how fast he racks up damage with little to no difficulty(input wise)is almost as bad as saying MK lost kill power from brawl or has less kill options. Never change Smash community never change.

In general, a lack of killpower can be compensated for with the speed at which a character can rack up damage. While this isn't always the case, just take a cold, hard look at Sheik for a minute.

 

[Nobie]

I've noticed that a lot of characters who generally lack kill power have at least one high-risk move that can net them fairly early KOs. Sheik to some extent falls into this category, Meta Knight's Forward Smash is actually crazy powerful, Mega Man's Up Tilt is probably the poster child for this.

As for Luigi, is his Neutral game really that amazing? This probably comes from a biased perspective as a Mega Man player, but I always see Luigi as a threat only if he manages to get close (and at that point he's legitimately scary). Otherwise, his low air speed is an issue and his fireball doesn't seem to be too big a deal, though that might have to do with the fact that projectile into run-in shenanigans don't work quite as well against Mega Man, unless you're Zero Suit Samus and you have high air speed.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Statistcally this would make sence but ur failing to take into account smash 4 engine alows his preformace to be enhaned anyway. Almost everything on mario was nerfed but here he is being considered top 10 fir whatever reason.

regardless i feel dk just fruntionally has less commitment than bowser its even said in the tips.

and in terms of bowser player i Feel the best player iv seen currently playing him is exist.

How does the engine benefit DK more than Bowser? Bowser has massive damage on just couple reads, rage is most beneficial for him as he can tank hits along with armor on some moves. Mario was made faster and more combo oriented or the cost of power (Dr. Mario takes that role now).
The tips are quite useless in my opinion, so I don't really care for what they say. DK doesn't take commitment for racking damage, but for kills he does (where my point originated from). Bowser doesn't take ridiculous amount of commitment for racking damage and certainly not for kills.
Exist relies more on reads. Oco spaces and can force you into his situation.

 

[meleebrawler]

DK I feel isn't as read-heavy as some other heavies (still important, though), not just because
he doesn't get the same kind of reward as they do, but because he has more moves that
are safe to use and is fairly mobile (Bowser's dash may be comparable now and his dash
attack is probably better, but his air speed and ESPECIALLY his walking are mollasses compared
to DK).

He does better at actually pressuring his opponents aggressively with his reach
thanks to his mobility, whereas Bowser mostly just tries to edge his way in slowly
while punishing attempts to attack him hard. Without Dash Slash, his only real way
of moving is by dashing.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

How does the engine benefit DK more than Bowser? Bowser has massive damage on just couple reads, rage is most beneficial for him as he can tank hits along with armor on some moves. Mario was made faster and more combo oriented or the cost of power (Dr. Mario takes that role now).
The tips are quite useless in my opinion, so I don't really care for what they say. DK doesn't take commitment for racking damage, but for kills he does (where my point originated from). Bowser doesn't take ridiculous amount of commitment for racking damage and certainly not for kills.
Exist relies more on reads. Oco spaces and can force you into his situation.

using a bair off stage is the least commitment iv seen. but what ever its obvious we both have very different opinions on the matter. i just fail 2 believe bowser does everything better than dk.
dont get me wrong i think bowser freaking awsome. i just dont feel his air game is anythimg more than sub par. where as dk can at least do 2 air attacks in a full hop.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK actually has SAFE offense with d-tilt, jab and his bair.

Bowser commits to EVERYTHING. He has NO safe buttons other then retreating Bair.

Bowser has to rely on trades and being amazing at footsies so he can counter poke. But he is very unsafe and very punishable.

 

[Man Li Gi]

using a bair off stage is the least commitment iv seen. but what ever its obvious we both have very different opinions on the matter. i just fail 2 believe bowser does everything better than dk.
dont get me wrong i think bowser freaking awsome. i just dont feel his air game is anythimg more than sub par. where as dk can at least do 2 air attacks in a full hop.

Bair offstage does have small commitment, but in the grand scheme of things, Bowser has more fair balance of risk and reward in his attacks.

DK I feel isn't as read-heavy as some other heavies (still important, though), not just because
he doesn't get the same kind of reward as they do, but because he has more moves that
are safe to use and is fairly mobile (Bowser's dash may be comparable now and his dash
attack is probably better, but his air speed and ESPECIALLY his walking are mollasses compared
to DK).

He does better at actually pressuring his opponents aggressively with his reach
thanks to his mobility, whereas Bowser mostly just tries to edge his way in slowly
while punishing attempts to attack him hard. Without Dash Slash, his only real way
of moving is by dashing.

Uh, no. DK is read dependent like any heavy, but yez he has the 3rd easiest time racking damage as a heavy (Charizard and KD3 are superior in my opinion). The only heavy that has EVERY attack being read heavy is Ganon, while every other heavy has an array of "safe" attacks. Unlike the others though, they don't have to reach high levels (in terms of heavies) to get a kill off. Dk's attacks (bar Headbutt, Hand Slap) do horrible shield damage and have very little push back, so his moves aren't safe. Along with the gaps in his hitboxes, makes it quite bothersome. Going aggro with a character that doesn't have a fair approach is just spelling for a disaster. His reach allows him not to get COMPLETELY walled out (same with his air speed), but doesn't= pressure/approach. Though many things point to DK being a big offensive monster, in the end he plays into being a defensive turtle. It's true Bowser has an awful walk speed (compared to DK, dunno his true air speed though), but he has great offensive approaching and has a true OoS.

DK actually has SAFE offense with d-tilt, jab and his bair.

Bowser commits to EVERYTHING. He has NO safe buttons other then retreating Bair.

Bowser has to rely on trades and being amazing at footsies so he can counter poke. But he is very unsafe and very punishable.

Dtilt is horrible on block, has worse range than what appears, can't hit in front of himself either. Dk's jab can't link into itself sometimes and can hit in front of him either. His bair is good, I'll give you that much. Bowser has AC Koopa Klaw, a great jab and boxing game, OoS whirling fortress, Tough Guy, and a fair approach. Bowser is already a great character in trading (due to his survivability). Playing footsies against Bowser is most of the time a losing battle.

 

[thehard]

I've been thinking Bowser/Charizard's fire breath/flamethrower is underrated, as a spacing tool, which is nice for a heavy to have- and you can almost always tack on damage when someone gets up from a ledge. I even find a jump-B works as an approach tool, usually amounts to ~4% damage and a flinch, but it matters!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anyone who says Mario has a poor neutral game needs to start playing Mario correctly.

Edit:

Okay, so I'll explain this further.

@ NairWizard is correct in attributing Mario's airspeed as the reason why his neutral game is so good. Couple this with his fast aerials, and you have a character that has sub-par range but quick agility to stay out of a character's range while getting bits of damage in.

The best example I have is against a pretty good DK player at the weekly I go to. Second match of the set, first stocks, he lived at 220% until I grabbed him at used B-throw and he lost that stock.

220%, that's gotta be like a new record right?

Well how was my damage as Mario? 60%. DK, the character that can shield break you in three hits, some pretty good mobility, and can kill you at sub-100% couldn't take my first stock past 60% as Mario and he lived until 220%. Yeah, we can poke fun at DK's poor F-air as being the reason if you'd like (even though his b-air more than makes up for it), but I find this to be a running theme as Mario against other characters as well, including Sonic and Sheik, the latter having the best f-air in the game, period.

Mario's strengths doesn't nessecarily make him a good spacing character, but it does make him a good microspacing character. In a way, he's a lesser Brawl Marth. You attack with the tip of his attacks to get hit confirm, go in for your offensive reward, then back off when you feel that advantage is withering. I imagine anyone who is a good Mario player can actually be a good Marth player as well.

Oh, and DK's second stock only lasted at roughly 110% because I U-Smashed him from a T&C platform and then I got an Up-B to kill, then after that I got a U-Smash kill at 130% with rage. So lets just drop the "Mario can't kill" shenanigans, okay?

DK is a pretty terrible matchup for Mario realistically, as you might have noticed from how Will basically bodied Ally. Not sure if your experience against DK really means anything to be frank when DK actually has very good matchup specific tools for breaking Mario's juggles and high aerial mobility to reset to the ledge in several situations.

I don't know what you're talking about, but attacking with the tip of Mario's attacks isn't how you confirm anything with him. Also Mario does have serious problems KOing. U-smash is cool and all until you realize that all your opponent has to do 90% of the time is aim for the ledge and recover low and suddenly Mario can't kill you easily especially because his low edgeguards are not that scary and because he lacks aerial KO moves.

I'm not really seeing where you believe Mario's neutral game is good, and you have to keep in mind I play the character pretty extensively.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bair offstage does have small commitment, but in the grand scheme of things, Bowser has more fair balance of risk and reward in his attacks.

Uh, no. DK is read dependent like any heavy, but yez he has the 3rd easiest time racking damage as a heavy (Charizard and KD3 are superior in my opinion). The only heavy that has EVERY attack being read heavy is Ganon, while every other heavy has an array of "safe" attacks. Unlike the others though, they don't have to reach high levels (in terms of heavies) to get a kill off. Dk's attacks (bar Headbutt, Hand Slap) do horrible shield damage and have very little push back, so his moves aren't safe. Along with the gaps in his hitboxes, makes it quite bothersome. Going aggro with a character that doesn't have a fair approach is just spelling for a disaster. His reach allows him not to get COMPLETELY walled out (same with his air speed), but doesn't= pressure/approach. Though many things point to DK being a big offensive monster, in the end he plays into being a defensive turtle. It's true Bowser has an awful walk speed (compared to DK, dunno his true air speed though), but he has great offensive approaching and has a true OoS.


Dtilt is horrible on block, has worse range than what appears, can't hit in front of himself either. Dk's jab can't link into itself sometimes and can hit in front of him either. His bair is good, I'll give you that much. Bowser has AC Koopa Klaw, a great jab and boxing game, OoS whirling fortress, Tough Guy, and a fair approach. Bowser is already a great character in trading (due to his survivability). Playing footsies against Bowser is most of the time a losing battle.

I suppose advancing Fairs work for him until the opponent learns about it's deceptive
range and then start punishing it's whiffs and blocks unless Bowser retreats doing it, putting him back at square one.

Face it, from the moment Bowser was introduced in Melee, DK has always been intended
as the faster but weaker super heavy. Of course, they did dial back his strength way too much
in that game. In Brawl his smashes were definitely at their most powerful, but that alone
didn't push him ahead from the other heavies (except Dedede), it was the fact that he could
actually do some things at higher level play, as well as being uniquely resistant to ground releases.

Dtilt may not have mind-blowing reach, but who can punish it easily on shield if it's spaced
correctly? And even if his jab doesn't link properly, it still serves it's purpose as a "get out of my face"
move.

Bowser certainly does better than DK at playing defensively and punishing, but he just
can't mount any sort of real offensive that isn't punishable in some way unless the opponent
messes up first, so patient players who stay out of his reach and punish HIM can wear him down easily.
This isn't as easy to with DK who can keep up more easily. He trades raw power for mobility
and attack speed where it counts. Don't bash him for not conforming fully to the heavyweight model
of super power. It's how the designers meant him to be.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I suppose advancing Fairs work for him until the opponent learns about it's deceptive
range and then start punishing it's whiffs and blocks unless Bowser retreats doing it, putting him back at square one.

Face it, from the moment Bowser was introduced in Melee, DK has always been intended
as the faster but weaker super heavy. Of course, they did dial back his strength way too much
in that game. In Brawl his smashes were definitely at their most powerful, but that alone
didn't push him ahead from the other heavies (except Dedede), it was the fact that he could
actually do some things at higher level play, as well as being uniquely resistant to ground releases.

Dtilt may not have mind-blowing reach, but who can punish it easily on shield if it's spaced
correctly? And even if his jab doesn't link properly, it still serves it's purpose as a "get out of my face"
move.

Bowser certainly does better than DK at playing defensively and punishing, but he just
can't mount any sort of real offensive that isn't punishable in some way unless the opponent
messes up first, so patient players who stay out of his reach and punish HIM can wear him down easily.
This isn't as easy to with DK who can keep up more easily. He trades raw power for mobility
and attack speed where it counts. Don't bash him for not conforming fully to the heavyweight model
of super power. It's how the designers meant him to be.

DK's surivivability, reach, power, and mobility were what made him stand out in Brawl. GR's weren't imperative in many chars gameplay. The removal of momentum cancelling and worsening of DI supremely affect DK's gameplay he could live to crazy high percentages before, but now can die to NESS'S bat at 120%. With this game, pretty much every character known for their range has had a range nerf (KD3's hammer is shorter, Marth, Ike, DK's arms, Link, TL), so unnecessary. Then he power.....really are we going to go there? So as I said in my DK thread, the only thing that's reminiscent of Brawl DK is mobility, other wise Sakurai is testing DK main's patience.

I'm not asking for "Mind-blowing" reach, but as a poke, it's a very poor one. Sheik, LM, Greninja, Pika, Fireballs, Pills, Sanic, and quite a few others can punish it. If jab doesn't link properly, you can 1) attack out of it, 2) shield out of it, 3) jump from it. If those 3 actions can occur in what people want to consider a "safe" option for DK, then DK is in trouble.

Since both are turtle heavy characters and Bowser is equipped with skills to remain turtling, Bowser has an edge. DK only can take advantage of people with LESS REACH AND MOBILITY. Everything you said about Bowser can be applied to DK. Of course I'm going to bash him and his design in this game as he did play like a true heavyweight despite being much lighter than he is now.

Imagine if Zangief or Hugo from the Street Fighter series suddenly had less reach and power on their attacks, but had a universal 2 frame buff on their attacks (every attack starts and ends 2 frames earlier). That, for one would attack the integrity of their designs while simultaneously people claiming they're "better". That's how DK is in this game, a shell of his once powerful self. It's quite disappointing for me to see.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DK's surivivability, reach, power, and mobility were what made him stand out in Brawl. GR's weren't imperative in many chars gameplay. The removal of momentum cancelling and worsening of DI supremely affect DK's gameplay he could live to crazy high percentages before, but now can die to NESS'S bat at 120%. With this game, pretty much every character known for their range has had a range nerf (KD3's hammer is shorter, Marth, Ike, DK's arms, Link, TL), so unnecessary. Then he power.....really are we going to go there? So as I said in my DK thread, the only thing that's reminiscent of Brawl DK is mobility, other wise Sakurai is testing DK main's patience.

I'm not asking for "Mind-blowing" reach, but as a poke, it's a very poor one. Sheik, LM, Greninja, Pika, Fireballs, Pills, Sanic, and quite a few others can punish it. If jab doesn't link properly, you can 1) attack out of it, 2) shield out of it, 3) jump from it. If those 3 actions can occur in what people want to consider a "safe" option for DK, then DK is in trouble.

Since both are turtle heavy characters and Bowser is equipped with skills to remain turtling, Bowser has an edge. DK only can take advantage of people with LESS REACH AND MOBILITY. Everything you said about Bowser can be applied to DK. Of course I'm going to bash him and his design in this game as he did play like a true heavyweight despite being much lighter than he is now.

Imagine if Zangief or Hugo from the Street Fighter series suddenly had less reach and power on their attacks, but had a universal 2 frame buff on their attacks (every attack starts and ends 2 frames earlier). That, for one would attack the integrity of their designs while simultaneously people claiming they're "better". That's how DK is in this game, a shell of his once powerful self. It's quite disappointing for me to see.

That what you consider a shell is what i consider an improvement dk overall feel much better to me. in brawl i felt he just did not do the best. in this game im rewarded with strong air pressure and ledge game. no more planking is the biggest buff to dk in this game.

 

[Pazzo.]

The power of Luigi in the hands of a good player:

[media]www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2EFIzijDfg[/media]

 

[HeroMystic]

DK is a pretty terrible matchup for Mario realistically, as you might have noticed from how Will basically bodied Ally. Not sure if your experience against DK really means anything to be frank when DK actually has very good matchup specific tools for breaking Mario's juggles and high aerial mobility to reset to the ledge in several situations.

I don't know what you're talking about, but attacking with the tip of Mario's attacks isn't how you confirm anything with him. Also Mario does have serious problems KOing. U-smash is cool and all until you realize that all your opponent has to do 90% of the time is aim for the ledge and recover low and suddenly Mario can't kill you easily especially because his low edgeguards are not that scary and because he lacks aerial KO moves.

I'm not really seeing where you believe Mario's neutral game is good, and you have to keep in mind I play the character pretty extensively.

Ignoring your arrogance, I notice you constantly wave Ally vs Will around as if it is gospel. It is not.

I'm not really going to play this game with you because honestly, it is tiring to debate with you. I've stated this before, but no one cares if you play Mario extensively. Everyone cares about accurate information, and I feel in nearly every iteration concerning Mario you've either been wrong or biased towards your own playstyle and theories.

I suggest you rethink you playstyle with Mario if you believe he has a terrible match-up with DK (he doesn't), or for even believing he's bad in the first place, or perhaps you just need to improve in general. As it stands, you'll fail to understand what I would explain to you if we go down this route.

 

[meleebrawler]

DK's surivivability, reach, power, and mobility were what made him stand out in Brawl. GR's weren't imperative in many chars gameplay. The removal of momentum cancelling and worsening of DI supremely affect DK's gameplay he could live to crazy high percentages before, but now can die to NESS'S bat at 120%. With this game, pretty much every character known for their range has had a range nerf (KD3's hammer is shorter, Marth, Ike, DK's arms, Link, TL), so unnecessary. Then he power.....really are we going to go there? So as I said in my DK thread, the only thing that's reminiscent of Brawl DK is mobility, other wise Sakurai is testing DK main's patience.

I'm not asking for "Mind-blowing" reach, but as a poke, it's a very poor one. Sheik, LM, Greninja, Pika, Fireballs, Pills, Sanic, and quite a few others can punish it. If jab doesn't link properly, you can 1) attack out of it, 2) shield out of it, 3) jump from it. If those 3 actions can occur in what people want to consider a "safe" option for DK, then DK is in trouble.

Since both are turtle heavy characters and Bowser is equipped with skills to remain turtling, Bowser has an edge. DK only can take advantage of people with LESS REACH AND MOBILITY. Everything you said about Bowser can be applied to DK. Of course I'm going to bash him and his design in this game as he did play like a true heavyweight despite being much lighter than he is now.

Imagine if Zangief or Hugo from the Street Fighter series suddenly had less reach and power on their attacks, but had a universal 2 frame buff on their attacks (every attack starts and ends 2 frames earlier). That, for one would attack the integrity of their designs while simultaneously people claiming they're "better". That's how DK is in this game, a shell of his once powerful self. It's quite disappointing for me to see.

Was it fair that he lived longer than Bowser, who is supposed to be heavier, in Brawl
due to some mechanic that he could arbitrarily abuse with one of his moves? It was a dumb thing
that made certain characters live way longer than they should have, like Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket Braking
and... oh yeah, mr. SS-tier Meta Knight.

Lemme put it this way: do you honestly think the developers intended for Oil Panic to be used the
way it was in high-level Brawl play?

The thing is that in this game I feel the developers have realized their design goal
of making DK the slightly faster heavyweight they always wanted him to be without skewing him
too far in one direction like in Melee. With that line of thinking, sometimes I feel that
DK was never really meant for you (except 64 DK), since you clearly prefer making
people quake in their boots with every move you make, and other characters are EXPLICITLY
made to do this better, only maining DK in Brawl because he was the best non-cheesy heavy (Dedede chaingrabs
and Snake mortarslides anyone?). If you don't like how DK was made, fine. But if I was a developer
for DK in this game, I'd stand behind me and my team's decisions regarding him in the face of your criticism.

 

[Asdioh]

The power of Luigi in the hands of a good player:

[media]www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2EFIzijDfg[/media]

I already watched this D: I'm just patiently waiting for Clashtournaments to upload that tournament that ZeRo 2 stocked almost everybody, that people kept talking about last week. So I can watch it on my phone, since twitch VoDs don't work on phone.
But yeah, epic Luigi. I'm just wondering if the Luigis will continue to be able to win tournaments, or if people will learn the matchup and suddenly he won't be so threatening anymore. That's what it seemed like in Brawl: Luigi felt super scary, until you play them some more and learn how to beat them, but he seems better as a long-standing threat in this game.

I suggest you rethink you playstyle with Mario if you believe he has a terrible match-up with DK (he doesn't), or for even believing he's bad in the first place, or perhaps you just need to improve in general.

It's ok if I say Kirby is bad though, right?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's matchup against DK is pretty blatantly terrible, and you're actually delusional if you ignore the following things:

*DK can easily escape a lot of Mario's low% juggles with Up-B, and Mario risks eating a lot of damage if he gets hit by the Up-B. This makes it a lot harder for Mario to get reliable capitalization options on DK. Keep in mind, DK in fact is able to Up-B out of Mario's D-air, so it's not a safe juggle move in this matchup.
*DK outpokes Mario for pretty significant damage, and doesn't really have trouble juggling him or otherwise generally killing earlier for doing basic reads.
*DK also actually edgeguards Mario pretty easily with Up-B and gimps him

Most of these things can be easily observed in the grand finals set. I also find it quite funny you're now discounting high level play as part of the argument. Sure, I've already made my case that Ally actually is pretty non-representative of how the game works in many situations because he kinda blatantly outskills a lot of his competition, but what I can explain from his matches are observations of what things he was and was not actually allowed to do overall. Ally had to deal with playing a character that is outstandingly bad at trading, and relies on people making the mistake of landing next to him or eating random F-smashes in order to win games. He wasn't really winning neutral in many of his games against other strong players. He just outplayed people really hard when he needed KOs, and then against Will who knew the matchup with a character that actually has a significant advantage, Ally got bodied and switched to Shulk. Those are the observable facts.

You want to blame me for arrogance? Honestly, I expect better arguments from you.

 

[Pazzo.]

I respect Zero... But two stocking with an exploitable character does not impress.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's ok if I say Kirby is bad though, right?

I haven't studied Kirby enough to say otherwise, so you're safe.

@ A2ZOMG PM me if you want to really debate this. As it stands I'm not willing to put this thread through another long-winded Mario debate.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Was it fair that he lived longer than Bowser, who is supposed to be heavier, in Brawl
due to some mechanic that he could arbitrarily abuse with one of his moves? It was a dumb thing
that made certain characters live way longer than they should have, like Mr. Game & Watch's Bucket Braking
and... oh yeah, mr. SS-tier Meta Knight.

Lemme put it this way: do you honestly think the developers intended for Oil Panic to be used the
way it was in high-level Brawl play?

The thing is that in this game I feel the developers have realized their design goal
of making DK the slightly faster heavyweight they always wanted him to be without skewing him
too far in one direction like in Melee. With that line of thinking, sometimes I feel that
DK was never really meant for you (except 64 DK), since you clearly prefer making
people quake in their boots with every move you make, and other characters are EXPLICITLY
made to do this better, only maining DK in Brawl because he was the best non-cheesy heavy (Dedede chaingrabs
and Snake mortarslides anyone?). If you don't like how DK was made, fine. But if I was a developer
for DK in this game, I'd stand behind me and my team's decisions regarding him in the face of your criticism.

Since Melee, Bowser was only 2 "units" heavier than DK. Bowser had quite the survivability in both games, but simply because of his notably worse recovery option, he couldn't compete there. MK didn't live forever so don't even mention him, but GW sure.

What the developers put intentionally or unintentionally isn't a problem unless it's game breaking (which besides infinite cape, wasn't a problem).

Ur right. DK has been a struggle for me to play and enjoy as the power has been stripped away from him, but then every DK main from Brawl shares the same sentiment as I do. Since most of the Smash 4 competitive group hails from Brawl, of course we're going to have a problem with this incarnation of our ape. DK is my favorite character hailing from 64 days and switching to a new character on a simple whim is a slap in the face. Character loyalty is important to me so switching to and fro isn't a reality. Now, since ur saying DK is fast, let's take a look and see his air speed is comparatively worse, ledge roll is worse, his pivot grab range is slower and worse, his hitboxes on his tilts comes out 1 frame later (with gaps), smashes have weaker/gaps/worse hitbox placement/come out slower.

DK isn't any faster from Brawl to now, so the nerf in power is beyond inexplicable. Your imaginary developers must explain why they didn't raise his mobility(in a noticeable way) at the extreme expense of his power. Brawly Kong would've translated well into this game (even without MC and the worsened DI).

That what you consider a shell is what i consider an improvement dk overall feel much better to me. in brawl i felt he just did not do the best. in this game im rewarded with strong air pressure and ledge game. no more planking is the biggest buff to dk in this game.

Not trying to sound bogus or anything, but since you didn't play Brawly Kong, you don't necessarily have the same sentiment as others who did. Planking was something DK mains used a lot. In fact, Will was even accused of doing such an act in WHOBO 4 where he beat Rich Brown (Olimar) with such a tactic. DK's air "pressure" is throwing out bairs and frame trapping with Uair. Otherwise Nair is a subpar approach option (and gimping one), Fair is......and dair.......His ledge game is worse with the removal of ledge invincibility and ledge options for him do suck (his ledge roll is among the worst distance and lag wise). Only real ledge option is to jump or neutral. Trump is something that DK's can take advantage of, but it's so obvious that I don't see the value, unless ur playing a scrub.

 

[Luco]

DK's surivivability, reach, power, and mobility were what made him stand out in Brawl. GR's weren't imperative in many chars gameplay. The removal of momentum cancelling and worsening of DI supremely affect DK's gameplay he could live to crazy high percentages before, but now can die to NESS'S bat at 120%. With this game, pretty much every character known for their range has had a range nerf (KD3's hammer is shorter, Marth, Ike, DK's arms, Link, TL), so unnecessary. Then he power.....really are we going to go there? So as I said in my DK thread, the only thing that's reminiscent of Brawl DK is mobility, other wise Sakurai is testing DK main's patience.

Why is dying to Ness' bat at 120% such a ridiculous thing? It's like in the top 10 most powerful Fsmashes in the game lawl. :3

The main thing DK has over Bowser, especially with customs, is a usable air game that actually keeps out characters. Bair alone will still work wonders against the vast majority of the cast, and Uair is low commitment and high kill power, his other 3 are at least semi-usable, as opposed to Bowser who atm really only can use Bair and Fair decently (I'm not sure which of these AC, if either).

DK's ground game can be punished but it's difficult, you're assuming the person knows what DK is doing most of the time which realistically will not be the case... it's why his downB is still quite viable (especially when the opponent doesn't want to take things into the air). His Dtilt and Ftilt both have considerable reach and will be hard to punish, especially if not PS-ed and Dsmash is quick and kills earlier than bowser's Dsmash I believe (which is important because Bowser's other smashes either have awkward range or have slow start-up).

Like, sure, DK received some rather large nerfs going into smash 4... but so did like 3/4 of the cast and when you stack him up to most of the characters I don't see him doing too badly in most cases. Especially that custom upB which I honestly believe sends you up like 2 full tiers by itself lawl.

It's certainly up to you how to perceive your changes and your MUs as you're the DK main, I'm merely offering my input as an observer (I have versed DK in tournament and it was scaaaaaaary haha )

 

[Kofu]

Why is dying to Ness' bat at 120% such a ridiculous thing? It's like in the top 10 most powerful Fsmashes in the game lawl. :3

The main thing DK has over Bowser, especially with customs, is a usable air game that actually keeps out characters. Bair alone will still work wonders against the vast majority of the cast, and Uair is low commitment and high kill power, his other 3 are at least semi-usable, as opposed to Bowser who atm really only can use Bair and Fair decently (I'm not sure which of these AC, if either).

DK's ground game can be punished but it's difficult, you're assuming the person knows what DK is doing most of the time which realistically will not be the case... it's why his downB is still quite viable (especially when the opponent doesn't want to take things into the air). His Dtilt and Ftilt both have considerable reach and will be hard to punish, especially if not PS-ed and Dsmash is quick and kills earlier than bowser's Dsmash I believe (which is important because Bowser's other smashes either have awkward range or have slow start-up).

Like, sure, DK received some rather large nerfs going into smash 4... but so did like 3/4 of the cast and when you stack him up to most of the characters I don't see him doing too badly in most cases. Especially that custom upB which I honestly believe sends you up like 2 full tiers by itself lawl.

It's certainly up to you how to perceive your changes and your MUs as you're the DK main, I'm merely offering my input as an observer (I have versed DK in tournament and it was scaaaaaaary haha )

FAir and BAir both autocancel for Bowser. His NAir would be pretty good if it had a hit that knocked people away (it still does great damage, 5% per limb hit lol). His UAir is similar to DK's but I think it's slower. Also, DK's NAir is pretty good, the hitbox seems to cover most of his body and it's great for gimping.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Especially that custom upB which I honestly believe sends you up like 2 full tiers by itself lawl.

Yeah it only took me like 3 minutes to figure out that Kong Cyclone is actually ridiculous and when customs are on Battlefield is going to be Custom DK's jungle.

 

[Man Li Gi]

FAir and BAir both autocancel for Bowser. His NAir would be pretty good if it had a hit that knocked people away (it still does great damage, 5% per limb hit lol). His UAir is similar to DK's but I think it's slower. Also, DK's NAir is pretty good, the hitbox seems to cover most of his body and it's great for gimping.

Yea, Nair has gotten buffed.

Why is dying to Ness' bat at 120% such a ridiculous thing? It's like in the top 10 most powerful Fsmashes in the game lawl. :3

The main thing DK has over Bowser, especially with customs, is a usable air game that actually keeps out characters. Bair alone will still work wonders against the vast majority of the cast, and Uair is low commitment and high kill power, his other 3 are at least semi-usable, as opposed to Bowser who atm really only can use Bair and Fair decently (I'm not sure which of these AC, if either).

DK's ground game can be punished but it's difficult, you're assuming the person knows what DK is doing most of the time which realistically will not be the case... it's why his downB is still quite viable (especially when the opponent doesn't want to take things into the air). His Dtilt and Ftilt both have considerable reach and will be hard to punish, especially if not PS-ed and Dsmash is quick and kills earlier than bowser's Dsmash I believe (which is important because Bowser's other smashes either have awkward range or have slow start-up).

Like, sure, DK received some rather large nerfs going into smash 4... but so did like 3/4 of the cast and when you stack him up to most of the characters I don't see him doing too badly in most cases. Especially that custom upB which I honestly believe sends you up like 2 full tiers by itself lawl.

It's certainly up to you how to perceive your changes and your MUs as you're the DK main, I'm merely offering my input as an observer (I have versed DK in tournament and it was scaaaaaaary haha )

Dsmash was nerfed into an oblivion with the hitboxes coming out later, less coverage and significantly weaker. Dying at 120% is major due to DK's, Bowser's, KD3's hurtboxes are ridiculously large and Ness's easy way to rack up damage and setup to fsmash does not = fair risk/reward. Kofu has highlighted Bowser's AC attacks, in conjunction with the mix up of Koopa Klaw, makes Bowser just as scary (let alone the AC factor in Koopa Klaw). Bair better be good as DK has no aerial approach otherwise as he's meant to be a grounded turtling character. DK is 2nd in nerfs (only losing to MK in that division). His titls have less range and, despite common belief are easy to punish. The only time they're hard is when ur experiencing "The Fear".

I have yet been anywhere where customs are allowed, so until they are, DK is considered worse than his previous iteration.

 

[Nobie]

Yea, Nair has gotten buffed.

Dsmash was nerfed into an oblivion with the hitboxes coming out later, less coverage and significantly weaker. Dying at 120% is major due to DK's, Bowser's, KD3's hurtboxes are ridiculously large and Ness's easy way to rack up damage and setup to fsmash does not = fair risk/reward. Kofu has highlighted Bowser's AC attacks, in conjunction with the mix up of Koopa Klaw, makes Bowser just as scary (let alone the AC factor in Koopa Klaw). Bair better be good as DK has no aerial approach otherwise as he's meant to be a grounded turtling character. DK is 2nd in nerfs (only losing to MK in that division). His titls have less range and, despite common belief are easy to punish. The only time they're hard is when ur experiencing "The Fear".

I have yet been anywhere where customs are allowed, so until they are, DK is considered worse than his previous iteration.

I'm not a Donkey Kong player by any means, so take this with a grain of salt, but there are a couple of things I'm not sure about.

First, your complaint that DK, Bowser, and Dedede are vulnerable to Ness and his ridiculous combo/kill power means that all are negatively affected by this. I don't see how DK is especially unfavored in this aside from being a bit lighter than Bowser.

Second, even if Bowser has all of these factors, is there any proof that DK is worse against Ness? I would imagine that DK is better against Ness, due to having better air speed, and superior edge guarding due to his infamous bairs.

 

[Asdioh]

Dsmash was nerfed into an oblivion with the hitboxes coming out later, less coverage and significantly weaker.

Isn't this true of almost everything in this game though? Or at least like, half the cast or so? Or at least as Smashes are concerned?
I mean I know that Kirby's Fsmash no longer kills at 60%. Instead it's more like.. almost double that, unless Rage is involved. I know G&W smashes are weaker, I believe Luigi's smashes are weaker? etc.

Side note I used to think Kirby's Bair was a pretty awesome KO aerial for this game, until I realized Ness upair/bair, Diddy Upair, etc. etc.
It's easy to get depressed about how bad he is, I was blind for a whole month or so when other people were calling him low tier and I had no idea what they were talking about.