Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

We do have a sorta Gabranth: Wii Fit Trainer, who is very limited in her moves with her low range and is a bit lacking in killpower... but has a move that puts her in a sorta supermode that can end stocks very fast(Deep Breathing).

The only issue with the Gabranth comparison is that Trainer is very respectable damage-wise even outside DB, while Gabranth really isn't outside EX Mode(Though I'd argue he is easier to hit with in return).

If you can't hit with a sword like that, then you have a problem... Oh wait, Meta Knight.

Hmm, how are Wii Fit Trainer's customs, anyway? I don't really remember them that much aside from Ninja Link saying they make her edgeguarding game even deadlier or something like that.

 

[Man Li Gi]

What do you mean DK doesn't have useful customs? Did Kong Cyclone stop existing and no one told me about it?

I should have said MORE useful.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DK, in my eyes, has lost his fear and distinction for being a mobile, strong heavyweight. While having similar weight, range, and some other attributes, DK is outclassed by Bowser. Bowser doesn't have gaps in hitboxes, has a strong and consistent boxing game, can actually kill way earlier than DK, has great shield damage outside of smashes, a forward aerial approach, a stronger footsie game in general, an extendable recovery, useful custom moves, better OoS options, an AC'able Command Grab,;etc...you get my point. Where ever DK is, Bowser is going to be leagues above him. The nerf DK's power/damage output is quite sickening/disheartening. All we got for it was a Headbutt that is too slow to use practically outside of that mixup (possibly), where it doesn't straight up break shields, it doesn't keep buried opponents in for long along with them taking less knockback than usual. Hand Slap was given an inexplicable extra 14 frames of end lag just because it breaks shields on the 3rd hit (which you usually don't go up to unless they'er on the ledge). People may say "look at Will". I did and bar GOML, where he got 2nd, there hasn't been a sound DK mentioning. Anyway, DK starts off strong in many games, but his simple gameplay is exploited and then he's left in the dust.

So here you come to guide us to the future out come of dk's meta? welp glad u were here now i can quit trying since that was predetermined and now some how proven inevetible.

You made me dodge a bullet there.

 

[RWB]

If you can't hit with a sword like that, then you have a problem... Oh wait, Meta Knight.

Hmm, how are Wii Fit Trainer's customs, anyway? I don't really remember them that much aside from Ninja Link saying they make her edgeguarding game even deadlier or something like that.

Her customs are overall excellent.

Neutral B:
Enriched Sun Salutation- shrinks the projectile, but hits quite a bit harder(I believe).
Sweeping Sun Salutation- the projectile, instead of killing you, grabs you and pulls you along.

Side B:
Weighted Header- Hits waaay harder in exchange for range.

Up B:
Jumbo Hoop- absolutely ridiculous. Hits multiple times, does very respectable shield damage, huge hitbox and the duration of the move lets you use it to carry players way off-stage and yet return to stage with it.

Down B:
Steady Breathing gives you more or less complete super armor for a while.

 

[outfoxd]

It's diddy or Falcon IMO. Their dairs are sweetspots for extremely long times and cover wide areas/range and come out fast (like similar amount of time as they did in Brawl), unlike every other character's meteors (practically) which are just single small hitboxes usually directly vertically below you only (with any side hits not spiking) with very short sweetspot periods (Marth and Lucina's is only 1 frame, similar for Ness/Falco) and have 50-100% longer start up times.

Marth/Lucina's tipper dair don't meteor, a single frame hitbox that appears below them at the same time the sword does is the only meteor.

Whose Dair meteor is the easiest to land? I want to say Marth/Lucina, Palutena, or Samus's since they cover a wide arc, but then there's DK's giant foot...

weighing in though it might not be my place, but Duck Hunt has a two hit dair where if the first, slightly forward one lands the second usually puts people down. That and the projectile sshenanigans really helps it connect.

 

[TriTails]

[quote="Man Li Gi, post: 18438390, member: 225987" Where ever DK is, Bowser is going to be leagues above him.[/quote]
Edgeguarding? Can't exactly ignore FOUR ****ing different spikes coming from the King of The Jungle.

Though, yeah. Bowser is better than DK in a lot of ways IMO. Dat grounded Spinning Kong though. Easy to punish and dodge, but if you get caught in it, it really sucks.

 

[RWB]

I'll admit I haven't played fantastic players, but Jumbo Hoop is a fantastic tool for WFT to have. No longer can people just walk into her space yet stay to far for her to hit, and additionally you can chase OR retreat with it. And once they are conditioned into knowing that, the fight becomes much more manageable in general.

 

[Man Li Gi]

So here you come to guide us to the future out come of dk's meta? welp glad u were here now i can quit trying since that was predetermined and now some how proven inevetible.

You made me dodge a bullet there.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or nah. Anyway, I have yet to see groundbreaking meta for DK to date. Many have been cute mixups or little tricks. He plays largely the same from Brawl, but is simultaneously neutered due to the points I've highlighted earlier. Also, the fact that DK relies on space and yet most powerful hitboxes on his tilts (moves most thrown around) have the strongest close to DK, but with the aforementioned gaps (all close to DK), this is simply a nauseating aspect of his gameplay.

[quote="Man Li Gi, post: 18438390, member: 225987" Where ever DK is, Bowser is going to be leagues above him.

Edgeguarding? Can't exactly ignore FOUR ****ing different spikes coming from the King of The Jungle.

Though, yeah. Bowser is better than DK in a lot of ways IMO. Dat grounded Spinning Kong though. Easy to punish and dodge, but if you get caught in it, it really sucks.[/quote]
All 4 spikes are extremely situational and compounded with DK's awful vertical ascension, makes each spike a risk (especially his fair). SK isn't quite satisfying with the lower damage output.

 

[Luco]

What do you mean DK doesn't have useful customs? Did Kong Cyclone stop existing and no one told me about it?

This. Sooooooo much.

I'd argue that DK is one of those few characters MADE by a single custom move that rockets him up past a couple tiers. Kong cyclone is literally that good, it gives him usability in the air and prevents juggling and aerial battles overall. Who wants to fight a heavyweight that outclasses you in the air, on the ground and can't be juggled?

This character makes me so mad sometimes.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Realistically dk edge guarding is top notch. its widliy agreed in this thread that dk has the best bair in the game. and ledge trumps are extreamly usable in dk's favor. dk's range is still use full. And his down b is much more usefull than u let on since it eats ur shield alive and beats mixup rolls. Dk actually has better area control than bowser. when ur cornered on a stage against dk you have to respect every option dk has . while if it was bowser thats not quite the case.
Also dk is rewarded for spacing much more than bowser. since bowser does no gett to much out of it other than jab spacing. but regardless bowser and dk have VERY different play styles. since Dk most proment trait is frame trapping. Bowser is straight up agression. Also bowsers air mobility is garbage compared to Dk.

 

[Kofu]

Haven't read this whole discussion yet and I probably should check my facts but I'm pretty sure DK's attacks are faster in general than Bowser's. I generally feel a lot more afraid of attack strings from DK than the Koopa King because they're more consistent. Bowser hits harder in general and has more gimmicks (USmash armor, "Tough Guy" protection) but DK feels superior because he's more mobile, especially in the air.

Both gain some significant benefits from customs, too.

 

[Pazzo.]

DK and Bowser have their perks... Thankfully anyone can play a character well and do well in SSB4.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Haven't read this whole discussion yet and I probably should check my facts but I'm pretty sure DK's attacks are faster in general than Bowser's. I generally feel a lot more afraid of attack strings from DK than the Koopa King because they're more consistent. Bowser hits harder in general and has more gimmicks (USmash armor, "Tough Guy" protection) but DK feels superior because he's more mobile, especially in the air.

Both gain some significant benefits from customs, too.

lol significant does not describe the new found beast bowser becomes with customs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, yeah, making a Ganon MU chart is a kinda futile endeavor. He loses the neutral game to everyone and has all kinds of other problems that can make him lose. The thing is that he's built to pay off very quickly and heavily if you get good reads; I see him as the best character in the game if you know what your opponent is going to do and the worst if you don't. This was kinda true in Brawl too but there were various ways to just lame Ganon out of the game so it didn't matter, and those don't really work in this game nearly so well. Maybe in a more mature metagame we'll be able to see who is relatively more or less resistant to Ganon's nonsense (if anyone can abuse his sloth in a more algorithmic way that doesn't give him opportunities for reads or if anyone gets some really heavy forced stuff against him that makes the reward on hit slanted the other way against Ganon), but for now, I really wouldn't try to guess his match-ups.

Ganondorf doesn't really lose neutral to everyone in this game...honestly. Also in Brawl, his reward compared to the rest of the cast was waaaaay worse when almost everyone in that game did good damage anyway.

Yeah technically he's not that safe in neutral. Everyone knows that. But he does legitimately beat the following characters in neutral:

Mario, Doc, Kirby, WFT.

Even factoring that these characters are able to duck under some of Ganon's moves, his range on N-air and D-tilt is actually really hard for them to deal with. Though just saying Ganondorf is unsafe in neutral doesn't explicitly mean he's terrible in neutral. Most of his attacks require completely different responses to wall out, and virtually everything does massive damage, even his regular grab game is strong in this game.

Anyhow, I believe Ganondorf wins 55/45 against the following characters. Some of these characters may or may not technically "beat" him in neutral, but they might only be able to momentarily keep Ganondorf out with extremely low threat moves. All of these characters generally speaking have to work a lot harder to KO Ganondorf than the other way around.



Characters that Ganon is at a disadvantage against include:



Predictably, Ganondorf has a harder time winning against some of the top tier characters who are obviously OP compared to him. Usually though, something that many of Ganon's bad matchups have is BOTH a low commitment projectile and threatening SH aerial pressure. Characters like Link, Toon Link, Lucario, Pit, and Dark Pit for instance even though they can slow his approach with projectiles, they can't really pressure Ganon from the air quite that reliably, so I don't really think he loses to them.

 

[Chuva]

DK, in my eyes, has lost his fear and distinction for being a mobile, strong heavyweight. While having similar weight, range, and some other attributes, DK is outclassed by Bowser. Bowser doesn't have gaps in hitboxes, has a strong and consistent boxing game, can actually kill way earlier than DK, has great shield damage outside of smashes, a forward aerial approach, a stronger footsie game in general, an extendable recovery, useful custom moves, better OoS options, an AC'able Command Grab,;etc...you get my point. Where ever DK is, Bowser is going to be leagues above him. The nerf DK's power/damage output is quite sickening/disheartening. All we got for it was a Headbutt that is too slow to use practically outside of that mixup (possibly), where it doesn't straight up break shields, it doesn't keep buried opponents in for long along with them taking less knockback than usual. Hand Slap was given an inexplicable extra 14 frames of end lag just because it breaks shields on the 3rd hit (which you usually don't go up to unless they'er on the ledge). People may say "look at Will". I did and bar GOML, where he got 2nd, there hasn't been a sound DK mentioning. Anyway, DK starts off strong in many games, but his simple gameplay is exploited and then he's left in the dust.

At least DK has SOME representation, even if it's only one person. Is there anyone notoriously representing Bowser nowdays?

DK's aerial game is way better than Bowser's. Better air speed, better frame data on most aerials, more functional/less gimmick UAir, DAir and NAir (doesn't commit nearly as much as Bowser), BAir is arguably better than Bowser's FAir for spacing and he has a proper offstage presence. Also worth mentioning DK has an actual grab game too.

Bowser being better than DK is questionable and definitely MU dependent, but I don't believe he is "leagues above" DK.

Characters that Ganon is at a disadvantage against include:

Shouldn't Ness go in there? While PK Fire is not exactly low-commitment his aerial pressure is not only good but also very rewarding (lol NAir)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shouldn't Ness go in there? While PK Fire is not exactly low-commitment his aerial pressure is not only good but also very rewarding (lol NAir)

idk, I wish I had more Ness players to play against irl because the matchup is really stupid on wifi. Some things to note:

Wizkick > PK Fire
Ness doesn't have a lot of mobility, which helps when spacing against him in neutral, and juggling him a lot.

Atm I feel like vs Ness, a good Ganondorf can keep up with spacing his own N-air correctly and using either Wizkick or good powershield reads to discourage Ness from getting careless with PK Fire.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Realistically dk edge guarding is top notch. its widliy agreed in this thread that dk has the best bair in the game. and ledge trumps are extreamly usable in dk's favor. dk's range is still use full. And his down b is much more usefull than u let on since it eats ur shield alive and beats mixup rolls. Dk actually has better area control than bowser. when ur cornered on a stage against dk you have to respect every option dk has . while if it was bowser thats not quite the case.
Also dk is rewarded for spacing much more than bowser. since bowser does no gett to much out of it other than jab spacing. but regardless bowser and dk have VERY different play styles. since Dk most proment trait is frame trapping. Bowser is straight up agression. Also bowsers air mobility is garbage compared to Dk.

Obviously u haven't seen Oco Le Troof, because the man plays like Bowsers should play (spacing and boxing out chars). Comparatively, Bowser has average-above average air speed. BEST bair in the game? Who told you such? It does have good range and great edge guarding abilities, but so does Bowsers (obviously not as long lasting). His range is good but outclassed. Dk relies and needs spacing while Bowser is perfectly capable without it. It's true DK does have superior edge play. Hand Slap is, as aforementioned, is great on the edge, but mid stage and space control I disagree thanks to 14 extra frames of lag. It's true that DK relies on frame traps, but some of staple setups (bair-uair, jab dsmash , Sk dsmash) are gone. Those setups in conjunction with the power he once had was the prime reason Dk was even considered somewhat usable.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Chuva , I think Oco Le Troof and Exist represents Bowser, WFT and Dr. Mario are represented by TKBreezy, I believe Guy represents Duck Hunt and maybe Greninja, NAKAT's Ness, Boss is Luigi, GimR's Mr. Game & Watch, 6wX representing Sonic, Pink Fresh's Peach, and Logic represents the Villager, right?

 

[TriTails]

ZeRo is Diddy, J. Miller is also represents Luigi as well as Boss, Junebug is Lucario. And that's all I know. Do Neo and Cyve represent Sheik?

 

[David Viran]

ZeRo is Diddy, J. Miller is also represents Luigi as well as Boss, Junebug is Lucario. And that's all I know. Do Neo and Cyve represent Sheik?

I thought cyve was Diddy.

 

[Luco]

idk, I wish I had more Ness players to play against irl because the matchup is really stupid on wifi. Some things to note:

Wizkick > PK Fire
Ness doesn't have a lot of mobility, which helps when spacing against him in neutral, and juggling him a lot.

Atm I feel like vs Ness, a good Ganondorf can keep up with spacing his own N-air correctly and using either Wizkick or good powershield reads to discourage Ness from getting careless with PK Fire.

Ganondorf has some really stupid tricks against Ness which punish us for our mistakes heavily. PK Fire is certainly useful as the ganny has to predict it for wizkick to work (because a whiffed wizkick means lol get Dthrow ---> 3 Fairs ganny) but in a surprisingly large amount of circumstances yeah ganny will sail right over it. Spacing Fair and Nair works pretty well against ganon, and ganon dies at 102%, 140% and 168% from Bthrow (no rage) at near side, centre and far-side of FD respectively. With rage these percents get reduced significantly (taken from this thread which we just made recently and you shoul all check it outtttt - http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/#post-18434854)

I believe we win the MU but not as hard as we did in Brawl. Good reads will kill us before we can do too much lawl. It's probably a +1/-1, mayyybeeeee +2/-2 but I doubt it.

 

[oldkingcroz]

I mean- is Luigi that much better than Mario (in neutral)? You've got Mario listed as a poor matchup against Ganon, but Luigi is "OP"? I get that the two have some major differences, but they pretty much function the same, and have similar moves on the ground. Quick grabs that go into combo strings, fireballs for defense, slow falling/ decent back air, long lasting sprint attacks, etc. Besides Luigi's down B (to chase rolls/ rush in to punish) what makes the two that different against Ganon in neutral? I'm a tad confused on how Ganon beats Mario, but Luigi stomps Ganon.

And, at least from personal experience, ROB doesn't really have a tough time killing Ganon. Sure his weight is high, so up thrown doen't kill as easily (not till- I dunno- 145 damage maybe?), but ROB's Gyro is amazing at gimping him. ROB plays differently than the other projectile users, but he probably (along with Mega Man) has the stronger/ less situational smash attacks. Along with his lasers, down smash, quick fair, and gyro, ROBs got some pretty decent moves to hurt/ harass heavies. That's just two cents.

That Ganon video a few pages back (vs. Pikachu) was great, by the way. Good video.

 

[TriTails]

I thought cyve was Diddy.

I only knew him from the last match of BEAST V lawl. Dunno much about him. He was using Sheik at that time, and J. Miller just barely win from that.

WAIT IT'S NOT OVER YET!
Best quote ever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf has some really stupid tricks against Ness which punish us for our mistakes heavily. PK Fire is certainly useful as the ganny has to predict it for wizkick to work (because a whiffed wizkick means lol get Dthrow ---> 3 Fairs ganny) but in a surprisingly large amount of circumstances yeah ganny will sail right over it. Spacing Fair and Nair works pretty well against ganon, and ganon dies at 102%, 140% and 168% from Bthrow (no rage) at near side, centre and far-side of FD respectively. With rage these percents get reduced significantly (taken from this thread which we just made recently and you shoul all check it outtttt - http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/#post-18434854)

I believe we win the MU but not as hard as we did in Brawl. Good reads will kill us before we can do too much lawl. It's probably a +1/-1, mayyybeeeee +2/-2 but I doubt it.

I don't think you normally get 3 F-airs out of D-throw unless like, your opponent holds Up and jumps into it.

Yeah Ness F-air is tricky to space against, but Ganon N-air also has good range, and if he trades with it, he deals like 7-12% while he takes like what...2%? It does require a level of reads, but it is something Ness has to respect.

I think if there's any reason Ness might win this matchup, it's actually because his PKT juggles are hard for Ganon to get around. I never feel like neutral is a huge problem, and juggling Ness isn't too hard (though he's heavier than I'd prefer and isn't always easy for Ganon to reach offstage if he wants to recover from really far away). But Ness does juggle Ganondorf very well with PKT.

I mean- is Luigi that much better than Mario (in neutral)? You've got Mario listed as a poor matchup against Ganon, but Luigi is "OP"? I get that the two have some major differences, but they pretty much function the same, and have similar moves on the ground. Quick grabs that go into combo strings, fireballs for defense, slow falling/ decent back air, long lasting sprint attacks, etc. Besides Luigi's down B (to chase rolls/ rush in to punish) what makes the two that different against Ganon in neutral? I'm a tad confused on how Ganon beats Mario, but Luigi stomps Ganon.

And, at least from personal experience, ROB doesn't really have a tough time killing Ganon. Sure his weight is high, so up thrown doen't kill as easily (not till- I dunno- 145 damage maybe?), but ROB's Gyro is amazing at gimping him. ROB plays differently than the other projectile users, but he probably (along with Mega Man) has the stronger/ less situational smash attacks. Along with his lasers, down smash, quick fair, and gyro, ROBs got some pretty decent moves to hurt/ harass heavies. That's just two cents.

That Ganon video a few pages back (vs. Pikachu) was great, by the way. Good video.

Luigi's Fireball and F-air put him in a completely different league than Mario in neutral. Luigi's Fireball is basically like ZSS Paralyzer insane. And he's also got Sheik's F-air but with more damage. Mario's fireballs are easily swatted or powershielded and neutralized that way. Luigi is still a threat even if you powershield/swat his fireballs because he can move a lot sooner than Mario out of his fireball.

ROB's ability to gimp with Gyro is really, really situational. Setting up a Gyro drop on demand is not trivial, and actually hitting someone with a projectile offstage rarely ever happens outside of poor DI. Beyond that, he doesn't have very reliable setups into any of his KO moves except U-throw. His U-throw is a decent KO move, but ROB's damage is really low overall and ROB relying on U-throw to KO overall means he was probably having trouble confirming anything else.

 

[David Viran]

I only knew him from the last match of BEAST V lawl. Dunno much about him. He was using Sheik at that time, and J. Miller just barely win from that.

WAIT IT'S NOT OVER YET!
Best quote ever.

I've heard more than once that he is the best Diddy in his region.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Whose Dair meteor is the easiest to land? I want to say... Palutena

Palutena's dair falls within the "one frame only, mediocre hitbox" category.

 

[Kofu]

Singling this part of the post out because it just seems so blatantly incorrect/biased. If I'm taking this out of context let me know, but I don't think I am.

actually hitting someone with a projectile offstage rarely ever happens outside of poor DI.

I don't know what game you're playing but it must not be Smash 4. Using projectiles to gimp or aid in gimping is a common and effective tool, especially if said projectiles are affected by gravity. In most cases the purpose of throwing out projectiles at an offstage opponent isn't to flat-out gimp but to interrupt recoveries, rack up damage and put them in unfavorable positions. If it ends up doing the job, great! But typically they won't. Projectiles are especially effective against characters with poor recoveries like Ganon, since they're unable to significantly alter the angles they recover from.

Let's take Villager as an example. He's a bit extreme, since he has a lot of different projectiles, but I'm mainly going to focus on Lloid Rocket and his dash attack. Lloid Rocket flies straight and is good at snuffing direct attempts at recovering. His dash attack, on the other hand, flies downward, pulled by gravity. Together they can cover most angles opponents from below the stage will try to recover from. Dash attack is limited it its execution but similar in how it flies to ROB's Gyro. (His FSmash is a special case and is really dumb if it hits characters like Ganon with it because it hits so hard).

Dedede and his Gordos are another example of a gravity-drawn projectile. They're pretty nice because you can alter how they fly to a decent degree. Now, Dedede's already good at gimping but his Gordos just give him aime added control. They're massive, deal good damage, and since they hang around, can give Dedede ample time to capitalize on their presence. Any recovery without and active hitbox can he severely interrupted by them, and even some with active hitboxes may be in jeopardy since Gordos can trade with attacks.

Now, back to ROB and his projectiles. Robo Beam is kind of bad for this since it usually lacks knockback but can be used to snipe second jumps. I personally love using the gyro to hit people offstage since it can fly varying distances depending on its charge (to say nothing of when ROB's holding it). I've become pretty good at hitting people at a distance with the gyro, and it can create some nasty situations where the opponent can either choose to be hit by it or to risk falling too far to recover.

I appreciate a lot of your insights, especially on characters I don't use. You do a lot of research and observation and probably have a greater grasp of game design/balance than I do. But a lot of the time it feels like you see and experience only selective attributes from each character.. You look at Ganon and see how he has improved (and he is definitely better relative to the cast, you were right there). He is likely the best character at turning stocks around in the game. You give him a percent, he takes a stock. His range is solid and his damage is excellent. But he still has poor mobility (mitigated somewhat by his movement specials), a large frame, slow attack speed, bad grab range, and what is among the worst recoveries in the game. On the other hand, you look at ROB, and see how he lost his best poking tool, how the new ledge mechanics and loss of Up-B time hurt him, how he has poor damage output and poor kill setups, and call him a bad character. Yet you neglect his potent throws, generally quick attack speed, ability to attack out of his Up-B, and access to what you openly declare to be the best attack in the game. Basically it feels like you're open to Ganon (and a few others) being good and improving but not ROB (and a few others).

 

[Luco]

I don't think you normally get 3 F-airs out of D-throw unless like, your opponent holds Up and jumps into it.

Yeah Ness F-air is tricky to space against, but Ganon N-air also has good range, and if he trades with it, he deals like 7-12% while he takes like what...2%? It does require a level of reads, but it is something Ness has to respect.

I think if there's any reason Ness might win this matchup, it's actually because his PKT juggles are hard for Ganon to get around. I never feel like neutral is a huge problem, and juggling Ness isn't too hard (though he's heavier than I'd prefer and isn't always easy for Ganon to reach offstage if he wants to recover from really far away). But Ness does juggle Ganondorf very well with PKT.

We don't always get 3 Fairs but against some characters in certain situations, we do the first one, FF DJ and do the second and third Fair and it works.

PKT juggling is something else I forgot to mention and yes it is something we can kind of abuse, except ganon has a good FF and can AD through it under the correct circumstances.

 

[PKBeam]

Ness can get ridiculous amounts of damage at low% on Dthrow reads.

 

[TriTails]

Is Luigi's neutral THAT good? I have no idea.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ganon most certainly does not beat Mario.

He absolutely no way of getting out of Mario's vortex, and he's free to Mario's edgeguarding. How does he get around Mario's low-lag kit?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon most certainly does not beat Mario.

He absolutely no way of getting out of Mario's vortex, and he's free to Mario's edgeguarding.

Except that Ganon does the same to Mario, and his massive advantage in range and power makes getting in very dicey for Mario. Ganon will take plenty of damage from Mario's combos, but he actually does have the ability to shrug it off and take the stock faster even after getting hit up for a free 40-60%. I'm not going to say for sure that it's in Ganon's favor, but it's definitely no worse than even.

 

[Teshie U]

Mario will slap Ganon around for bit from 0, but from neutral at low percent they both can punish for 40+ damage. Its just up to the dorf to not get carried off stage as he tank 5-8 hits.

If ganon has his double jump, he can just recover low and clear the way with uair. Uair beats most thing from above and if he gets caped, the backhit will likely kill Mario by sending him under the stage. He isn't that free to gimp in this game.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Because SoCal is the whole world, right? Right?

Smooth Criminal

I mean, he did win Smash 4 Worldwide. It was an online tournament and with I'm sure plenty of dropouts, yes, but with supposedly 1600+ entrants across multiple regions he did beat people from a lot of places.

Not saying how significant this may or may not be, but I figured I'd mention it.

 

[TriTails]

And what about Luigi VS Ganon? I would say this MU is in Luigi's favor, since he hits HARD and QUICK. Though, he is not fast, but Ganon can't really chase him around anyway because of mobility (Felt good on finally saying 'Luigi has the better mobility!') and Cyclone.

Though, I'd like to hear some things from Ganon mains. Have you all having problems with the King of Second Bananas (Just had to throw it in)?

 

[HeavyLobster]

And what about Luigi VS Ganon? I would say this MU is in Luigi's favor, since he hits HARD and QUICK. Though, he is not fast, but Ganon can't really chase him around anyway because of mobility (Felt good on finally saying 'Luigi has the better mobility!') and Cyclone.

Though, I'd like to hear some things from Ganon mains. Have you all having problems with the King of Second Bananas (Just had to throw it in)?

I personally almost never actually see any Luigi players so I have no real MU experience, but from what I understand the matchup is in Luigi's favor precisely for the reason you mentioned. Unlike Mario, Ganon can't simply shrug off Luigi's hits once he gets in, and Luigi's Fireballs are much tougher to deal with than Mario's as well. Those are the two big differences that swing things in Luigi's favor that Mario doesn't have.

 

[Teshie U]

Luigi definitely has a potent offensive games. One of the things I can applaud the developers on is that everyone feels dangerous when they are hitting you and making those reads, even if some characters have a tougher time landing hits.

However Luigi is much easier to gimp than Mario and has a harder time getting in on Ganondorf. Shielding a smash pushing him across half the stage and Ganon truly excel when the only place you can roll is into him.

Ganon is technically slow, but he has some serious reach, so he gets withing an effective range to threaten you fairly easily.

 

[thehard]

I can see Mario doing well against the top tiers (Sonic, Rosa, Diddy) with FLUDD/Cape to gimp their poor recoveries. Should be looked into more.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon most certainly does not beat Mario.

He absolutely no way of getting out of Mario's vortex, and he's free to Mario's edgeguarding. How does he get around Mario's low-lag kit?

Ganon can very easily get out of Mario's vortex the way many characters fundamentally do. Go to the ledge. Mario is terrible at edgeguarding low, and Ganondorf does just fine abusing this and resetting to neutral over and over until he just outtrades Mario for the win. And the real question is, how the **** does Mario get past Ganon's range? Especially Ganon's massive N-air and D-tilt which outrange a lot of SWORDS for crying out loud, both of which Ganondorf can space with relative impunity against Fireballs .

Mario also has to play very respectfully against aerial Wizkick. It's one of few moves that he cannot consistently beat with U-smash, and it will kill him at like 80% if he doesn't respect it.

Combine Ganon's superior low edgeguards, Flame Choke followups (one of which happens to be F-tilt), better juggle game, yeah. This matchup is nowhere near Mario's favor. Mario has to hard read his way around Ganon's range, and Ganondorf literally does like three hits worth of damage on several of his attacks, and kills and gimps better because his low edgeguard options actually are good. Even factoring that Mario can usually juggle Ganondorf to about 60% fairly easily, Ganondorf just seals the stocks way better and forces Mario to work hard to even get in and he has his own ways of dealing massive damage.

And what about Luigi VS Ganon? I would say this MU is in Luigi's favor, since he hits HARD and QUICK. Though, he is not fast, but Ganon can't really chase him around anyway because of mobility (Felt good on finally saying 'Luigi has the better mobility!') and Cyclone.

Though, I'd like to hear some things from Ganon mains. Have you all having problems with the King of Second Bananas (Just had to throw it in)?

Luigi just spams fireballs, and suddenly nothing Ganon can do is safe in that matchup. It's bad enough that Luigi even actually is able to keep up with Ganon's damage output and KO power on top of that.

Ganondorf does juggle and edgeguard him, but he loses neutral very, very noticeably in this matchup, while against Mario he actually wins neutral.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's recovery isn't 'easily gimpable' I wonder when people will stop saying that.

Let me get this straight. You knocked me far, and you are trying to egeguard me. But then I just Cyclone out of the hitstun and rise really high, then proceeding to return to the stage by air dodging and aerials everything, maybe even another Nado. Unless you are named ZSS or Yoshi, maybe Jiggly, I cannot see on how you can gimp me this way. Before you can reach Luigi, he is already out of the end lag, and is ready to counter everything you throw at him. The only exception would be when semi-spiked, but then again, he has a lot of mixups in his recovery (Especially jumpless Cyclone) and I don't get the bandwagon of 'Luigi is easily gimpable'. Gimping Ness was hard, Luigi is even harder. Especially with Ganon's poor aerial mobility.

He forces Ganon to approach with Fireballs. Fireballs stop WizFoot and FlaChoke, and when Ganon is clashing from WizFoot, a free grab. If he tries to Side-b his way in, then he is going to take lot of damage, and Luigi can just get out if the way quite easily. Something Mario cannot do as effectively because of his laggy Fireballs compared to Luigi's.

And a few solid capitalize on Ganon's mistake, it's checkmate for him.