Character Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

well im not terribly experienced in that mu i will take your word for it.

When a character is all about super armoring through things
wut do

Command Grab.

 

[Antonykun]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Villager offers Lloyds Slingshots and Balloon Trip.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Smooth Criminal

 

[thehard]

Only asking because and seem to have the same gameplan and some shared moves

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is heavier than Sheik so he has more durability. He also has more power behind his attacks so he can get kills easier and Sheik is also not as mobile as Greninja is, if only by a bit (she's actually right behind him in a lot of the charts about speed). Hydro Pump is a good tool for gimping too and Substitute can kill very early if used well.

Really I think the only similarities between Greninja and Sheik is that they're both ninjas with a multi-hit up-air and good projectiles. The rest is completely different.

 

[Luco]

@Terotrous I have some issues with your statements here buddy. First of all, I'd like to say I don't think Little Mac would have been anywhere near OP even pre-patch, many of his MUs were still particularly frustrating (I'd like to know how this character intends to beat Pac-man's trampoline camping any day - Pac-man sits there - possibly in shield if he's too close to the trampoline to avoid sideB - and waits for jumps or sits back and camps with hydrant + fruit in the meantime) where a character could contest his ground game and many characters still had a very significant edge over him in the air. That character was flawed, even then, in a way our top tiers aren't.

As for Palutena, I've gone against a lightweight + superspeed build before in tournament (one of our top players uses Palutena with this build) and I can assure you the 50/50 chance Palutena is taking on super speed is just not good enough to pull her MUs into a 9-1, 8-2 or even 7-3 range. Super Speed is a commitment that certain projectiles will win out on whether she's in the air or on the ground, and I'm not sure as to how normals interact with her so I won't comment, but most of the cast can deal with this move. And lightweight too. Circle camping just isn't going to be a big issue for the reasons Thinkaman described and the reason lightweight is more of a commitment than Deep breathing or thunder is because it has to be used in a particular setting and in the tenseness of a match can often fail.

Customs Palutena is nowhere near godlike from my experience of her.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Smooth Criminal

Ugh...i forgot D3 was always perfection

 

[Spinosaurus]

According to Aerodrome's chart, yeah.

Overall I think Greninja has the best mobility in the game. Having the 6th fastest running speed, 4th fastest walking speed, 2nd highest jump, 3rd fastest falling speed, 4th fastest fast fall speed and 5th highest air speed.

Fox technically is better for the most part, but his air speed is quite low compared to Greninja and he doesn't jump as high. So who is the best is up to debate.

Isn't Greninja's aerial declaration terribly slow? He has to commit to his jumps, unlike Wario and Jigglypuff who can weave in and out midjump.

The air speed chart dosn't take into account the accleration and declaration of a character's air speed, only the maximum horizontal speed. These are important to note.

 

[FullMoon]

Isn't Greninja's aerial declaration terribly slow? He has to commit to his jumps, unlike Wario and Jigglypuff who can weave in and out midjump.

The air speed chart dosn't take into account the accleration and declaration of a character's air speed, only the maximum horizontal speed. These are important to note.

That I'm not too sure of.

 

[Kofu]

Isn't Greninja's aerial declaration terribly slow? He has to commit to his jumps, unlike Wario and Jigglypuff who can weave in and out midjump.

The air speed chart dosn't take into account the accleration and declaration of a character's air speed, only the maximum horizontal speed. These are important to note.

This is my understanding as well. I think this is a problem Shulk has as well, and I don't think his Monado Arts really fix it.

 

[David Viran]

zss has the 5th fastest sprint speed, 5th fastest walk speed, and overall 4th best air mobility. Along with wave bounces and edge cancels.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Swag?

 

[HeavyLobster]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Ganondorf has something to offer that no one else has.

 

[Antonykun]

Ganondorf has something to offer that no one else has.

 

[David Viran]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

zss has something over sheik if you know what I mean. Jet heels.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Lucario Zard both kill better, Zard in cases has more range and more reach, not range reach in terms of what he can hit.

Peach can float, offer better shield pressure, can 0-near death off a MUs tech. And maybe even kill abd edgeguard better.

Heck Lucario can recover better and force bad landing decisions better while killing incredibly better.

 

[Luco]

Ness can-

Well fine then!

I dunno, Bowser Jr can probably kill with his upB easier than her because he can do it one of two ways.

DHD can um... umm..... ummmmmm.... maybe disjoint in the air better (have you seen that Fair? @.@) ?

I LOVE THEM BOTH ANYWAY. <3

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Lucario Zard both kill better, Zard in cases has more range and more reach, not range reach in terms of what he can hit.

Peach can float, offer better shield pressure, can 0-near death off a MUs tech. And maybe even kill abd edgeguard better.

Heck Lucario can recover better and force bad landing decisions better while killing incredibly better.

Ooh boo u killed the stream of fun replies.

but is that *over* shieks options?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ooh boo u killed the stream of fun replies.

but is that *over* shieks options?

Better overall, only Lucario might rival that, which is partly why I think he beats Sheik.

The rest? No, but if offers good design and balance for giving them traits that Sheik does not have herself. Peach imo, is high tier. Charizard is mid.

But neither are better than sheik.

Lucario only might be, but even then I do not think he beats the cast like Sheik does, just his traits are good against Sheik like he was in Brawl.

 

[David Viran]

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Looking back at that last reply I made I should not have said that. What zss really has over sheik is mobility, power, and range.

 

[Saturn_]

Better overall, only Lucario might rival that, which is partly why I think he beats Sheik.

The rest? No, but if offers good design and balance for giving them traits that Sheik does not have herself. Peach imo, is high tier. Charizard is mid.

But neither are better than sheik.

Lucario only might be, but even then I do not think he beats the cast like Sheik does, just his traits are good against Sheik like he was in Brawl.

I think Sheik, and any character that lacks kill moves, like Sonic, are good matchups for Lucario, who obviously benefits from being chipped up to 100%.

 

[Shaya]

Looking back at that last reply I made I should not have said that. What zss really has over sheik is mobility, power, and range.

What ZSS has over Sheik is kill set ups, vertical juggling and some disjoints.
Their range and mobility differences are meager.

 

[David Viran]

What ZSS has over Sheik is kill set ups, vertical juggling and some distances.
Their range and mobility differences are meager.

Yeah true but zss's nair and I think even Bair out range sheiks aerials and on the ground zss's ftilt and dtilt outrange most of sheiks attacks also dsmash as well not including projectiles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A conversation I've had in my head while playing Little Mac a dozen times:

"Crap, that was a good dodge, now he's gonna--yup, I'm getting juggled. ...urg, CHRIST I wish I had some platforms... ...wait, did I just say that?"


The other easily overlooked thing about Little Mac is that d-smash makes many characters even more doomed off-stage than he is.


Also, the public notion that Mac somehow benefits from lag is insanity. Lag is worse for LM than anyone else.

For contrast, if you could play this game with half the usual human reaction speed, LM would be broken as hell.

Yeah like, Little Mac is a ridiculously precise character. Discounting whatever weaknesses he actually has, just actually playing him well and using his kit correctly requires you to have really really good mechanics and reactions.

As for the point on platforms, I mean sure. Everyone universally benefits from platforms as a source of mobility/landing options. I am fairly skeptical Little Mac benefits from this more than he dislikes people platform camping correctly given unless he manages to reach the platform before his opponent, he basically only can really Up-B to threaten people (or U-smash BF's low platforms).

 

[Shaya]

By distances I meant disjoints.

ZSS has like nair, zair and a few other tools that are designed to be that way.

 

[Ffamran]

Isn't Greninja's aerial declaration terribly slow? He has to commit to his jumps, unlike Wario and Jigglypuff who can weave in and out midjump.

The air speed chart dosn't take into account the accleration and declaration of a character's air speed, only the maximum horizontal speed. These are important to note.

What's aerial declaration?

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?

Ike has better range, coverage, and raw power in return for being slower. So, his kill options are more varied. I don't know his edgeguarding game well, but like Ganondorf's Volcano Kick, Ike's default Eruption and his 3rd Custom are powerful if they land before the opponent grabs the ledge. Otherwise, Tempest, the wind elemental Eruption, has windbox shenanigans.

Luigi's combo game is, as everyone has seen, amazing. That's pretty much the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Oh, and Luigi Cyclone can semi-meteor from what @ Lavani found. Anyway, Luigi suffers from having a predictable and gimpable recovery.

Falco has the best hops in the game. Personally, I prefer the air I call him Air Falco, but that's just me. Falco has various kill options from the ground and air: Dtilt, Down Smash, Uair, Bair, Fair, Up Smash, Side Smash, B-throw near the ledge, and U-throw. Reflector is a fantastic tool since it can reflect projectiles, has range, spaces, and it has a chance to trip. Falco can do Ftilt, another spacing and footsie tool, to Reflector for 14% as a double space. The downsides to Falco are his mobility which makes his range sometimes all that much shorter and he feels a bit too powerful, but too weak at the same time. It's common to send people near the blast zone, but not past it unlike Ganondorf who just boots people to the blast zone.

 

[Lavani]

Oh, and Luigi Cyclone can semi-meteor from what @ Lavani found.

I didn't find it, and I was actually under the impression it was a known thing that the bottom portion of the cyclone can spike.

 

[Ffamran]

I didn't find it, and I was actually under the impression it was a known thing that the bottom portion of the cyclone can spike.

Well, you posted it.

Did Boss find out about it? I don't remember and I'm basically crashing from today's arduous journey with a wonderful (read: taxing) day at uni.

 

[Lavani]

Well, you posted it.

Did Boss find out about it? I don't remember and I'm basically crashing from today's arduous journey with a wonderful (read: taxing) day at uni.

I wouldn't know which vids would have him using it but I'm positive he knows about it.

 

[Ffamran]

I wouldn't know which vids would have him using it but I'm positive he knows about it.

I think one of the highlights of Boss being super serious against Pink Fresh might have had him using it since I clearly remember him using Cyclone off-stage and then going back to Dair Pink Fresh even though I think Pink Fresh might not have been able to get back on stage.

I'll check on my laptop later...

 

[thehard]

It's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMuYDCiXEb0

 

[ATH_]

Easily the greatest balanced Smash game of the 4. It may not be as quick and intense as Melee, but it just makes mindgames more relevant. Every character feels like they have really good potential, save the Mii Swordfighter, which makes me excited to see all of the different mains rise up!

If a Tier List is ever made for this game, the gaps between tiers will be VERY small. I predict there will likely only be an S-B tiers, but that's just my speculation.

Anyway, I don't want to get flagged for just talking about tiers and whatnot, so let me give my updated impressions.

Diddy is NOT unbeatable with characters other than Diddy. It's possible, just have to get better.
Zero Suit has risen to be extremely competent and is scary to go against. While on the other side of the spectrum, Marth/Lucina players have also been getting stronger and more menacing.
Wario and Olimar are unexplored for the most part other than by a very small amount of people. I think they have good potential and need more time to be put into them.
Sheik still feels like a very good character, but with the low Kill potential, it seems almost too easy to dance around her and get chip damage.
I now main Ness and really enjoy his combo potential amount of options for every aspect in the game.

I'm really enjoying this game, but I'm also still considering picking up Melee competitively and I'm not sure if I would hold up both games.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is my understanding as well. I think this is a problem Shulk has as well, and I don't think his Monado Arts really fix it.

Something people rarely seem to take into account when discussing shulk. Throw in the fact that his aerials are some of the slowest in the game it's not looking good for thr Monado kid. It's sad too because I like shulk but he's just terrible.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Why am I not feeling that Sheik vs Yoshi is -2...
Maybe we were just overreacting like the Fox mains thinking fox vs yoshi is -3 for them.

 

[ATH_]

Why am I not feeling that Sheik vs Yoshi is -2...
Maybe we were just overreacting like the Fox mains thinking fox vs yoshi is -3 for them.

Yoshi's killpower, overall strength, and eggs can easily overwhelm Sheik. But I feel Sheik can still put up a strong game by capitalizing on Yoshi's landing lag. -1 to me.

 

[Luco]

I think Slush means -2 in Sheik's favour. Yoshi's recovery gets eaten by needles so fast, it's really sad.

 

[ATH_]

I think Slush means -2 in Sheik's favour. Yoshi's recovery gets eaten by needles so fast, it's really sad.

Oh snap, didn't even think about the needles on Yoshi's recovery... Hm. I could see it being more of a -1 then in favor of Sheik, with this new info. Does the Grenade's weak hit do the same thing?

 

[Luco]

Oh snap, didn't even think about the needles on Yoshi's recovery... Hm. I could see it being more of a -1 then in favor of Sheik, with this new info. Does the Grenade's weak hit do the same thing?

I could be wrong as I don't know too much on it, but from my knowledge the grenade has to be more timed whereas the needles can more or less just be chucked out at will?

 

[ATH_]

I could be wrong as I don't know too much on it, but from my knowledge the grenade has to be more timed whereas the needles can more or less just be chucked out at will?

Ah okay. I can still see Yoshi winning this MU, but definitely doesn't have an advantage.

 

[Smog Frog]

do people still think the dorf is mid tier?