Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

We'll see. I'm not calling for a ban yet, but what I see there looks REALLY strong. I might be wrong about it, but I have a pretty good track record with this stuff (I nailed Dr. Doom in MvsC3 as being top tier from day 1, also Markman and Stream in Divekick and Fat Princess in PSAS, among others).

Tero...

You also said Mac was OP and centralizing and that he needed banned.

And yet!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Palutena doesn't have 9-1 matchups, that's asinine.

I honestly feel like she could get a lead and just run from most of the slower characters. As we saw, she can go under the stage on any stage that doesn't have a wall, and with Lightweight + warp she can likely just jump over the whole stage, grab ledge, then do it again, effectively circle camping FD and similar stages.

Her aerials and grabs are also a bit on the slow side. Meanwhile, her tilts and smashes are all extremely unsafe.

Her damages are trash on tilts and decidedly mediocre on everything else.

Her aerials and smash attacks have decent power. Uair and USmash are both very solid kill moves. Nair is great move in combos.

Diddy or Sheik, she ain't.

She makes up for any frame data advantage they might have by literally being twice as mobile as they are.

All of these tricks are neat, but have to always be viewed in the lens that they are layered on top of fundamentally mediocre moves.

Mediocre moves with useful tricks are way better than purely mediocre or bad moves, which a lot of the cast are stuck with.

Spamming Super Speed is not an instant win, as good as it is. You can still block the dash attack or spot-dodge the grab

It's a purely better spindash (since you can still access all of your moves during it). There's no point trying to downplay that, we already know how good Spindash is. Many people have already argued that if Sonic could grab during Spindash, he'd be completely broken. Palutena can.

Projectiles are still a problem for its approach angle, and force Palutena to abort.

If you're facing a character with a projectile, just jump first and come in on an angle. They won't have time to throw another one before you're in. This actually makes throwing projectiles against Palutena super unsafe as she can punish from almost anywhere, anyway.

The infinite Lightweight glitch is SUPER overrated, very situational in practice. Since when is it plausible to say, in the middle of a match: "Yo man, it cool if I jump up on this platform, land, and do this ~30-frame animation?"

Fairly often? How often does WFT use Deep Breathing? How often does Robin throw out an Arcfire? All sorts of characters have 30 frame moves that are very unsafe at close range that nevertheless form a crucial part of their neutral game. Especially when you're as mobile as Palutena, you can easily find moments to get away and set it up.

Tero...

You also said Mac was OP and centralizing and that he needed banned.

And yet!

That was on 3DS, pre-nerf, when we were only allowing 3 stages, 2 of which were really good for him. I think it's quite arguable that he was OP under those circumstances.

 

[TTTTTsd]

9-1....HALF THE CAST?! Okay I didn't even read that but I already know that's absurd. Does she do WELL against the cast with them? Probably much better than without, definitely, but 9-1?

Do you know what entails a 9-1 matchup? The character in question who is losing has to have virtually ZERO options, ZERO. Maybe some godlike reads but that's it. Take it from experience coming from an ST player, I know what a 9-1 MU is. (I believe ST (NOT Old Sagat) vs. Dhalsim is close to this) and Palutena certainly does NOT force that. Oh my god.

You can claim she beats them, that's okay, but 9-1 is an incredible stretch by every margin and entails a virtually unwinnable matchup and it frankly looks like supreme hyperbole.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Tero...

You also said Mac was OP and centralizing and that he needed banned.

And yet!

Smooth Criminal

come on man don't just call people out like day man.

let that terrible/hilarious past alone......*giggle*

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay, whatever you say.

...I think you should admit that your instincts aren't all what they're cracked up to be.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

come on man don't just call people out like day man.

lets that terrible/hilarious past alone......*giggle*

Nah, I stand by it. 1.00 Mac is really strong on 3DS, quite possibly top 5 and I do indeed think that a lot of characters have very few tools in that matchup. 1.04 Mac is pretty mediocre on Wii U, but a lot has changed.

You can claim she beats them, that's okay, but 9-1 is an incredible stretch by every margin and entails a virtually unwinnable matchup and it frankly looks like supreme hyperbole.

9-1 basically just means circle camp. You must hold the lead the entire time or you lose since she'll just run away forever. Like I said, she's so mobile that she may be able to circle camp characters on almost any stage.

This strategy might get banned, which would reduce it to more like 7-3 or so/

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nah, I stand by it. 1.00 Mac is really strong on 3DS, quite possibly top 5 and I do indeed think that a lot of characters have very few tools in that matchup. 1.04 Mac is pretty mediocre on Wii U, but a lot has changed.

so your willing to beilive that pre patch macs playstyle was more cancerous than. lets say sonic? or more overwelming than shieks.

 

[Thinkaman]

I honestly feel like she could get a lead and just run from most of the slower characters. As we saw, she can go under the stage on any stage that doesn't have a wall, and with Lightweight + warp she can likely just jump over the whole stage, grab ledge, then do it again, effectively circle camping FD and similar stages.

You plan on circle-camping stages with Lightweight? I don't think you've thought this cunning plan all the way through.

It's a purely better spindash (since you can still access all of your moves during it). There's no point trying to downplay that, we already know how good Spindash is. Many people have already argued that if Sonic could grab during Spindash, he'd be completely broken. Palutena can.

Spindash is much stronger shield pressure and raw damage reward. Sure, who needs shield pressure when you can grab--except Sonic doesn't have to option select, he can just do it. If Palutena Super Speeds into a shield and doesn't grab, she avoids punish but does almost zero shield damage.

And Spindash doesn't have a 5-second cooldown, as much as I wish it did.

If you're facing a character with a projectile, just jump first and come in on an angle. They won't have time to throw another one before you're in. This actually makes throwing projectiles against Palutena super unsafe as she can punish from almost anywhere, anyway.

Trust me, this is easier said that done. Palutena games become heavily about angling for that prime location/angle for a given matchup.

Fairly often? How often does WFT use Deep Breathing? How often does Robin throw out an Arcfire? All sorts of characters have 30 frame moves that are very unsafe at close range that nevertheless form a crucial part of their neutral game. Especially when you're as mobile as Palutena, you can easily find moments to get away and set it up.

If these moves required them to jump on a platform, they wouldn't do them.

Jumping on a platform is just about the worst thing you can do in neutral against anyone not named Little Mac. (And it's way worse against Little Mac than people imply--what's your plan from here?)

 

[Terotrous]

so your willing to beilive that pre patch macs playstyle was more cancerous than. lets say sonic? or more overwelming than shieks.

Probably about the same.

The thing with Mac is that he's easily the worst-designed character in the entire series. No character should be so absurdly polarizing as to be top tier on one stage and bottom tier on another. This creates an absurdly wonky matchup chart where he will have some matchups where the opponent has almost no chance, and some matchups where he has almost no chance. At least with Sheik, even if she's better than you, she doesn't completely shut you down the way LM can.

Brawler is the character Little Mac would be if he was a proper character. I'm happy that 1.04 nerfed Mac to the point where he's no longer just this unwinnably terrible matchup for some characters, but I'd much rather he be "fixed" so that his aerials and recovery are not complete garbage and his ground game is not so braindead.

You plan on circle-camping stages with Lightweight? I don't think you've thought this cunning plan all the way through.

It will eventually run out, but if timed properly that can probably be while you're super speeding under the stage. LW isn't really the main camping tool, super speed is.

Of course, this would be impossible on stages like Skyloft, but most TOs have been banning that stage.

Spindash is much stronger shield pressure and raw damage reward.

I actually don't think it's more raw damage, unless you mean on the actual contact hitbox. Palutena's Super Speed followups are at least as damaging as Sonic's, as she can get upsmash or aerials out of it if she opts not to grab.

Trust me, this is easier said that done. Palutena games become heavily about angling for that prime location/angle for a given matchup.

Even if this is the case, it's still extremely high reward when she gets it. If you have to eat a couple projectiles on your way in, so be it, you're still coming out ahead.

Jumping on a platform is just about the worst thing you can do in neutral against anyone not named Little Mac.

It's fine as long as someone isn't right beside or under you, and she's mobile enough for them not to be.


Anyway, we'll see, but I think you have to squint really hard to look at that toolset and not see unbelievable potential. Most characters would instantly become top tier if they had even one of those moves, let alone both.

 

[Terotrous]

Accidental double post.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think an absurd claim such as 9-1 vs. half the cast is damn well debatable. Damn. Well. Debatable.

Also Patch 1.04 barely changed Little Mac besides jab damage reduction (it's still good tho! LOL) and Air Side-B is even worse than it already was. Like, really? (oh and I GUESS Ftilt?)

All of his exact same problems are still present and even then I only see him in the upper center of the cast if you pick him on FD because of the immense amount of work it takes to make him work given that one mistake in neutral can push you to the edge of the stage or even worse, right off, and you know what happens next.

I blame 3DS controls for Little Mac being minutely annoying.

Also platform camping isn't exactly going to work given that most of the cast can clear the distance fast enough to just thunk you from under the platform unless you're on the top one (which as a tall floaty character is a fairly bad place to be)

 

[Terotrous]

I think an absurd claim such as 9-1 vs. half the cast is damn well debatable. Damn. Well. Debatable.

It's probably slightly hyperbolic, but that level of extreme mobility is clearly a big problem for some people. There simply hasn't ever been a Smash character who was even half that mobile before, and already there are characters who have problems dealing with characters like Fox and Sonic who can just run away from them.

Also Patch 1.04 barely changed Little Mac besides jab damage reduction (it's still good tho! LOL) and Air Side-B is even worse than it already was. Like, really? (oh and I GUESS Ftilt?)

The air side B change is actually way more significant than it looks. It seems like it should barely matter, but losing that extra distance forces him to try to recover higher a lot of the time, exposing himself to far more gimps where he would have been able to recover for free in 1.00.

 

[Thinkaman]

It will eventually run out, but if timed properly that can probably be while you're super speeding under the stage. LW isn't really the main camping tool, super speed is.

You can't seriously expect us to accept that a camping strategy in which you scrooge--in smash 4 with no ledge invincibility, mind you--in 5 second increments is a legitimately degenerate camping strategy.

Like, seriously. Go try it, right now. It's not in the ballpark of reasonable.

I actually don't think it's more raw damage, unless you mean on the actual contact hitbox. Palutena's Super Speed followups are at least as damaging as Sonic's, as she can get upsmash or aerials out of it if she opts not to grab.

Sonic Spindash to nair does 22%. Palutena Super Speed damage varies, but at normal approach distance Super Speed to nair or bair does 14%.

Edit: Note that Sonic gets the full damage on shield. Palutena doesn't, except with bair against tall people.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The air side B change is actually way more significant than it looks. It seems like it should barely matter, but that extra little bit of distance seems to be the exact difference between making it back and getting gimped vs a lot of characters.

He got gimped for free already because all you had to do was tap him off to begin with. It was probably the least necessary nerf in existence given that about 90% of the cast has an answer to air Side-B in their aerials (except for another Little Mac kek). He was meh in 3DS and he's even more MEH here because of the stagelist. He was already pretty EZ in 3DS and now he's even easier.

I'm sticking with Thinkaman, camping strat seems off and is not in the realm of functionality both thanks to mechanics and the movement speed of most other characters in the cast.

 

[Thinkaman]

The only matchups where scrooging is legitimately vaguely viable is super slow runners against people who can go halfway under a long stage and still freely select which half they want to go to: Lucario, Villager, Olimar, and ROB, though the latter two aren't sustainable. Diddy can do it too, but it's hard.

Palutena has to commit to moving to the other side relatively early in the process.

 

[thehard]

I'll just say what I keep saying about 3/4 of the cast: who's actually playing Little Mac now?

 

[Terotrous]

You can't seriously expect us to accept that a camping strategy in which you scrooge--in smash 4 with no ledge invincibility, mind you--in 5 second increments is a legitimately degenerate camping strategy.

Like, seriously. Go try it, right now. It's not in the ballpark of reasonable.

Doesn't really seem that complicated.

- Wait for the opponent to come close to you.
- Zip to the other side and grab ledge.
- Do regular ledge getup. A slow character will not be able to reach you in time
- Jump back off ledge
- Warp back to ledge, regaining invincibility since you touched the stage*
- Drop from ledge and zip to the other side again as soon as they come close. Repeat from point 3.

You could potentially get trumped at the spot with the asterisk, but you can just super speed over to the other side if that happens. Trump is never a guaranteed punish.

Sonic Spindash to nair does 22%. Palutena Super Speed damage varies, but at normal approach distance Super Speed to nair or bair does 14%.

She can often get a second follow-up, though.

He got gimped for free already because all you had to do was tap him off to begin with.

Nah, here's a 1.00 vs 1.04 situation that I'm quite familiar with.

Yoshi Bthrows LM off-stage.
In 1.00, he can immediately do side B, which will grab ledge. Yoshi cannot attack that position before he gets there.

In 1.04, if he immediately does side B, it will miss and he will die. He has to jump first, which does give Yoshi a chance to soft Nair him.

So what was once a fairly free escape is now a life or death situation. There are many other instances like this for him.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll just say what I keep saying about 3/4 of the cast: who's actually playing Little Mac now?

*raises hand*

I think Little Mac is legit and have been enjoying punching naysayers.

I don't think most non-FD-stages are as bad for him as popular theorycraft suggests. Just Duck Hunt and maybe Smashville. Battlefield has been the most surprising "not-that-bad-for-LM" stage for me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why are you B-Throwing him and not just waiting for him to overcommit and then juggling him to free ridiculous percents and swatting him? (this is really easy to do with projectiles or even a good neutral!)

Because that's what happens. Little Mac overcommits once and he's popped into the air where he can't do **** besides throw out garbage aerials that lag on landing which probably makes it worse, or he can try and orient himself and airdodge into the ground at a good spot. Both of these "fantastic options" are punishable. Don't B-Throw him, just gore him by sticking him in the air. You don't even need true combos, what's he going to answer with? Even the laggiest launching throw in the game can probably squeeze a followup out vs. Little Mac.

He's not awful but he was nowhere near "toxic" and that Side-B nerf was like the dumbest thing ever for a numerous number of reasons.

 

[Terotrous]

Why are you B-Throwing him and not just waiting for him to overcommit and then juggling him to free ridiculous percents and swatting him?

Uhh, he can still airdodge, so it's not like something that's not a true combo on anyone else is any more guaranteed against him. If you wait for him to land and try to punish the landing, he has a counter that he can use to make you guess. It's not like the juggles are THAT free. Getting the gimp is generally much simpler.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Uhh, he can still airdodge, so it's not like something that's not a true combo on anyone else is any more guaranteed against him. If you wait for him to land and try to punish the landing, he has a counter that he can use to make you guess. It's not like the juggles are THAT free. Getting the gimp is generally much simpler.

The juggles ARE that free. Airdodge isn't exactly a great option for a lot of reasons (mainly because you can still punish it pretty easily!) They COULD try their counter but you could make him counter himself off the stage if he's near the edge because of how slip counter works! (if you poke them from below with disjoint or long hitbox and they rocket off the side)

Juggles ARE that free vs. Little Mac. I'd argue that he's the easiest character to do it to maybe not counting the heavies. Like, really, he's not this amazing toxic monster. It's more than just the Side-B nerf and stagelist that stopped people from using this character.

KEEP IN MIND I AM IN NO WAY SAYING HE'S AWFUL. But the idea that he was toxic pre-patch is silly. Really silly.

 

[thehard]

*raises hand*

I think Little Mac is legit and have been enjoying punching naysayers.

I don't think most non-FD-stages are as bad for him as popular theorycraft suggests. Just Duck Hunt and maybe Smashville. Battlefield has been the most surprising "not-that-bad-for-LM" stage for me.

Nice to hear. I think a lot of people are still stuck in "I'm no For Glory scrub!" mode and are underrating him

Is Tornado Uppercut good? Don't have a lot of experience with his customs

 

[Nobie]

Probably about the same.

The thing with Mac is that he's easily the worst-designed character in the entire series. No character should be so absurdly polarizing as to be top tier on one stage and bottom tier on another. This creates an absurdly wonky matchup chart where he will have some matchups where the opponent has almost no chance, and some matchups where he has almost no chance. At least with Sheik, even if she's better than you, she doesn't completely shut you down the way LM can.

I know that it's easy to forget this when discussing the competitive environment, but we have to assume that Little Mac was designed to be usable at least to some degree on not just the stages that are "viable" according to community standards but also every stage in Smash. This means walk-offs (where I assume Little Mac is a tiny god) and moving stages with hazards (where Little Mac is super boned). In a way, this reinforces your argument, but if we're talking about a character designed to be polarizing, I think he was actually designed to be polarizing with those more extreme stages in mind, and not so much the ones that are just used in tournaments. In those stages, he'll be pretty advantaged/disadvantaged overall but I wonder if this isn't exaggerating.

 

[Thinkaman]

- Do regular ledge getup. A slow character will not be able to reach you in time

I just tried it as Ganon on FD. He can make it across the stage just slow enough to not punish the ledge grab, but easily enough to punish the getup.

Except Ganon and Robin, every character in the game should be able to punish the ledge grab.

- Jump back off ledge

There is so many things they could do to you here. Ganon would just chase with an immediate uair--his abnormally high horizontal jumping speed enables it.

Warp back to ledge, regaining invincibility since you touched the stage

Forget trumping, this has a frame of vulnerability. An unoccupied Ganon can and will spike a Palutena, Zelda, or Sheik out of a forced teleport.

And if you want to talk trumping, sure. Ganon and Robin have like the best two trumps.

You could potentially get trumped at the spot with the asterisk, but you can just super speed over to the other side if that happens. Trump is never a guaranteed punish.

I don't think you understand how trumping works. A controlled, optimal trump is a 28 frame advantage that many characters have guaranteed punishes on.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nice to hear. I think a lot of people are still stuck in "I'm no For Glory scrub!" mode and are underrating him

Is Tornado Uppercut good? Don't have a lot of experience with his customs

If u seen chozod's samus just replace screw attack with uppercut. well maybe a bit worse but yeah same deal really.

*edit* i some how missed u saying it was a custom in that case i only know the one thats like ganon's dark fist.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

In regards to who plays him, Alphicans took 4th with a solid Mac in Smash 4 Worldwide.

 

[Nobie]

And if you want to talk trumping, sure. Ganon and Robin have like the best two trumps.

I feel like I don't see enough people talking about Robin's Levin Down Air. That move seems too quick on startup and too powerful (with spiking properties!) for it just be seen as any other move.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nice to hear. I think a lot of people are still stuck in "I'm no For Glory scrub!" mode and are underrating him

Is Tornado Uppercut good? Don't have a lot of experience with his customs

LM customs:

Flaming Straight Lunge - Faster charging, multi-hit, less damage, dubious recovery utility. No armor though IIRC.
Stunning Straight Lunge - Slower, hits people behind you, pointless stun element. Seems pointless.
Note that both neutral B customs give earlier super armor on KO Punch.

Grounding Blow - High, short arc to jump. Spikes aerial opponents, buries grounded opponents. Links to Rising Uppercut. Laggy.
Guard Breaker - Super slow, super laggy, short jump. Covered in super armor starting on like frame 9. Does 18%, unblockable.

Tornado Uppercut - Trivial height gain, pitiful damage/threat, terrible.
Rising Smash - Absurdly slow, but absurdly strong. Worse recovery height unless combined with double jump. Cannot combo out of bury.

Compact Counter - Faster ending, low (fixed) knockback counter.
Dash Counter - Weaker counter that sends Mac forward. A bit too slow to be a practical projectile counter, but good for recovery.

Little Mac has no slam dunk customs, but his radically different (and all useful) side-b options are very important on a matchup-by-matchup basis.

I know that it's easy to forget this when discussing the competitive environment, but we have to assume that Little Mac was designed to be usable at least to some degree on not just the stages that are "viable" according to community standards but also every stage in Smash. This means walk-offs (where I assume Little Mac is a tiny god) and moving stages with hazards (where Little Mac is super boned). In a way, this reinforces your argument, but if we're talking about a character designed to be polarizing, I think he was actually designed to be polarizing with those more extreme stages in mind, and not so much the ones that are just used in tournaments. In those stages, he'll be pretty advantaged/disadvantaged overall but I wonder if this isn't exaggerating.

Also keep in mind FFA-Stock, FFA-Time, 2v2, and 4v4 environments--all of which LM does significantly better in than 1v1. (It's harder for EVERYONE to avoid him, and their are higher costs for doing so.)

For an even more extreme case, look at Zelda.

 

[Terotrous]

They COULD try their counter but you could make him counter himself off the stage if he's near the edge because of how slip counter works! (if you poke them from below with disjoint or long hitbox and they rocket off the side)

So DI towards the stage? You said I wasn't supposed to throw him off, so presumably I'm using a vertical throw for follow-ups, so he can just try to move towards center stage to avoid that little trick.

Also, Side B allows for a kind of semi-escape from juggles as well. If I jump after him after I do the throw, he can Side-B away from me and he usually will escape from my follow-ups. Dash attack would punish this if I stayed grounded, but then of course counter is an option.

Juggles ARE that free vs. Little Mac. I'd argue that he's the easiest character to do it to maybe not counting the heavies

Sure, he's more vulnerable to them than most, but it's still a mixup of sorts.

I just tried it as Ganon on FD. He can make it across the stage just slow enough to not punish the ledge grab, but easily enough to punish the getup.

Except Ganon and Robin, every character in the game should be able to punish the ledge grab.

That's encouraging I guess, but I'm quite certain that in order to get some of these punishes they have to commit to options hoping that Palutena exactly follows the script above, which she obviously doesn't have to. If Ganon is running over to do Dash attack to punish Palutena's getup, and she instead does getup roll, he'll get punished. Being forced to chase the opponent constantly is still a really bad situation be in, even if hitting them is technically possible, since it usually forces you to act in a fairly predictable way.

 

[TTTTTsd]

LM customs:
Also keep in mind FFA-Stock, FFA-Time, 2v2, and 4v4 environments--all of which LM does significantly better in than 1v1. (It's harder for EVERYONE to avoid him, and their are higher costs for doing so.)

For an even more extreme case, look at Zelda.

Free for all environments are a basis for a LOT of design decisions IMO, there actually is one in Dr. Mario!

Dr. Tornado's absurd priority and KB (with it being an edgeguard, a good on-stage option, etc.) likely stems from the base design of a "get off me" move to use in Free For Alls in large crowds of people (with the KB being so high to scatter them away). Its priority is likely a result of them wanting to make sure it reliably worked as a crowd clearing move.

It allowed for so much more outside of that.

For the record Little Mac is a beast in anything that has 4 or more fighters in it, especially doubles.

@ Terotrous Also to respond to your inquiry about Mac's counter shooting him off-stage, slip counter functions interestingly and even if they DI towards the stage you can force them to face you by hitting them on the other side via the counter. Meaning they're going off. You are NOT convincing me that he is a toxic character because he's not, and never was. His options to escape juggles are horribly pitiful and he dies to a sneeze or anything with remote semi-spiking angles at percent ranges of, probably 70-80. Was he better? Yes. The stagelist was a lot better for him in 3DS. But he is not toxic at all and I feel like that is ALSO a giant hyperbole.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's encouraging I guess, but I'm quite certain that in order to get some of these punishes they have to commit to options hoping that Palutena exactly follows the script above, which she obviously doesn't have to. If Ganon is running over to do Dash attack to punish Palutena's getup, and she instead does getup roll, he'll get punished. Being forced to chase the opponent constantly is still a really bad situation be in, even if hitting them is technically possible.

Actually Ganon doesn't have to dash attack to reach her. I was just shielding and grabbing the getup, which would work for ledge attacks too.

 

[_Magus_]

Actually Ganon doesn't have to dash attack to reach her. I was just shielding and grabbing the getup, which would work for ledge attacks too.

Great stuff man. You're the only person I see on here actually research and test stuff themselves before they discuss it. Sure people research for guides and stuff, but for discussions? That's awesome. Keep it up bro.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Great stuff man. You're the only person I see on here actually research and test stuff themselves before they discuss it. Sure people research for guides and stuff, but for discussions? That's awesome. Keep it up bro.

He's a man. That thinks.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

@ Terotrous Also to respond to your inquiry about Mac's counter shooting him off-stage, slip counter functions interestingly and even if they DI towards the stage you can force them to face you by hitting them on the other side via the counter. Meaning they're going off.

I know how it works. The reason you DI towards center stage is to pull yourself far away enough from the ledge that you don't go flying off.

Actually Ganon doesn't have to dash attack to reach her. I was just shielding and grabbing the getup, which would work for ledge attacks too.

I'm very surprised he has time for that. I'd want to know exactly how close he was to Palutena when she went to the other side, and how quickly you reacted to her doing it.

Palutena shouldn't be starting the zip until the opponent is in a position to actually hit her, and in a situation where you don't know if the opponent is going to go for that or do something else you likely wouldn't react immediately. I feel a reasonable reaction time is when you hear the "zip" sound from super speed being activated. Before that, she could just be planning to jump back up and regrab the ledge, so if you had already started running to the other side when you saw her drop from the ledge you would miss that punish.


At any rate, you may be right in that using this to infinitely stall is not practical. However, I'm quite confident it would work at least occasionally since the opponent wouldn't know exactly what you're going for until it was too late to react to it. You could use something like this to, say, stall out LW's penalty time if you get stuck in it.

 

[thehard]

Tornado Uppercut - Trivial height gain, pitiful damage/threat, terrible.

Mm, I figured everyone would clamor for any sort of extra recovery in Mac's case, but I guess the bad damage/KB makes it easily gimpable? Looks like it only hits at the beginning of the move, too. And no Uppercut KOs off the top.

 

[NairWizard]

Edited this post out. Never mind, I really really dislike giving such strong negative opinions about characters (this one was about Little Mac)

 

[Thinkaman]

I also don't buy that he's bad on stages with platforms. I'd rather fight him on stages without platforms because it's easier to juggle him on those stages (I always take LM to FD if I have the choice. Easiest way to beat him (make sure there's no wall if you pick an Omega Stage) is to remove his landing options. Force that airdodge/counter option).

A conversation I've had in my head while playing Little Mac a dozen times:

"Crap, that was a good dodge, now he's gonna--yup, I'm getting juggled. ...urg, CHRIST I wish I had some platforms... ...wait, did I just say that?"


The other easily overlooked thing about Little Mac is that d-smash makes many characters even more doomed off-stage than he is.


Also, the public notion that Mac somehow benefits from lag is insanity. Lag is worse for LM than anyone else.

For contrast, if you could play this game with half the usual human reaction speed, LM would be broken as hell.

 

[mimgrim]

I felt this was more appropriate in this thread rater then clogging up the rule-set thread.

I value having nair as a viable move, and other normals are easier for me to use. It's probably not bad considering I haven't tried using that spec in a while.

Nair is still pretty viable even on the shortest height. It's still a relatively quick move with very low lag that covers the whole body in an arc (like Zard's Nair) and you can still do combos with it as well. So its still viable. I guess I just prefer the maximum mobility while also being the hardest for my opponent to hit over having more range and kill power.

 

[Yonder]

9-1....HALF THE CAST?! Okay I didn't even read that but I already know that's absurd. Does she do WELL against the cast with them? Probably much better than without, definitely, but 9-1?

Do you know what entails a 9-1 matchup? The character in question who is losing has to have virtually ZERO options, ZERO. Maybe some godlike reads but that's it. Take it from experience coming from an ST player, I know what a 9-1 MU is. (I believe ST (NOT Old Sagat) vs. Dhalsim is close to this) and Palutena certainly does NOT force that. Oh my god.

You can claim she beats them, that's okay, but 9-1 is an incredible stretch by every margin and entails a virtually unwinnable matchup and it frankly looks like supreme hyperbole.

Can I like this more than once? Seriously, There are no matchups in this game that are as bad as 9-1. And on half the cast then? Looks like Palutena has ascended to MK in Brawl...cept like...9.0 times better.

This is an interesting subject though on matchups, what are the absolute worst ones in the game? I don't see 9-1s here though, I think everyone has at least some options unlike Brawl.

 

[Terotrous]

Can I like this more than once? Seriously, There are no matchups in this game that are as bad as 9-1. And on half the cast then? Looks like Palutena has ascended to MK in Brawl...cept like...9.0 times better.

9-1 is probably a bit excessive but I do think a lot of the cast is going to have really bad matchups against her since she can run circles around a lot of people.

This is an interesting subject though on matchups, what are the absolute worst ones in the game? I don't see 9-1s here though, I think everyone has at least some options unlike Brawl.

In customs-on, Ganondorf / Dr Mario vs Palutena looks super bad, if not 9-1 then maybe 8-2.

Customs off? I'm not sure anything is worse than 7-3. I feel like there would be a lot of those though, generally most very bad characters vs very good characters are probably like that.