Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

The nitpicking over numbers is as inadvisable as making super-serious tier lists - an early meta is an early meta. Matchup discussion is super useful, but when reduced to simple ratio number it becomes pretty useless to readers.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well for one I don't see what Palutena has to do that forces Doc to approach nor do I think she really can, even with customs. In fact I'd argue with customs he can deal with her fairly efficiently (not advantageous but it's probably not hard) thanks to a combination of Fast Pills and Nado (Which I am pretty sure would either beat or trade with Super Speed because Nado beats Sonic's spindash) and if all else fails just shoot a pill. 8-2 is incredibly excessive, what the hell dude lol. She can run around all she wants but I have a 10 frame move that beats most anything that isn't a disjoint sooooooo cool try I guess? What's she gonna camp me with, Autoreticle? And even if Nado doesn't seal the deal both variants of Pill are great in this MU because she's nice and tall.

I'm going to ask you to stop throwing around arbitrary high as **** numbers for MUs that don't really warrant them.

 

[Thinkaman]

In fact I'd argue with customs he can deal with her fairly efficiently (not advantageous but it's probably not hard) thanks to a combination of Fast Pills and Nado (Which I am pretty sure would either beat or trade with Super Speed because Nado beats Sonic's spindash) and if all else fails just shoot a pill.

Palutena can dash attack nado to always win. (This is true of virtually every melee attack)

But yeah, both normal and fast pills are gonna stuff her. Great projectiles for this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I had no idea about her Dash Attack but that's good info to keep!

I at least think Nado can beat Super Speed if she tries to do anything with it but I will conduct more tests! (I'm also testing Quick Attack vs. Nado as well if possible, just to check the Pika MU)

 

[Thinkaman]

I had no idea about her Dash Attack but that's good info to keep!

I at least think Nado can beat Super Speed if she tries to do anything with it but I will conduct more tests! (I'm also testing Quick Attack vs. Nado as well if possible, just to check the Pika MU)

Palutena dash attack always wins against other attacks--it even clashes full Oil Panic just fine. (Though G&W takes no damage or KB)

 

[mimgrim]

Palutena's Dash Attack and Bair have insane priority, I like to call it shield priority, in that they beat out like every non-transcendent attack. Her tilts also have rebounding properties which is nifty and explains why her tilts are the way they are. She has a lot of gimmicks on her.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That's pretty crazy. Thank god projectiles exist for most chars I play, and if all else fails I don't think it's safe on shield (can't imagine it being, anyways)

 

[FullMoon]

Custom Palutena is an interesting match-up because while she can outrun everybody in this game, she also has periods of time where she's very vulnerable due to Lightweight's drawback and she can't spam Superspeed like Sonic can with his Spin Dash.

Fighting her to me seems like you need to be very careful around her when she has all her tools available, but once she loses them it's time to go on the offensive. Fast characters like Sheik and Greninja are probalby going to have an easier time dealing with her and at least on the Greninja MU, Shifting Shuriken can beat Superspeed pretty badly since Greninja can combo it into Up-Smash which can spell death to Palutena at higher percentages or even not at relatively low percentages depending of whether Lightweight is up or not.

I never really fought a good Palutena with customs before and I'm quite interested in doing so.

 

[Terotrous]

But yeah, both normal and fast pills are gonna stuff her. Great projectiles for this.

Reflector?

Alternatively you could just go over or try to poke with that fireball.

Fighting her to me seems like you need to be very careful around her when she has all her tools available, but once she loses them it's time to go on the offensive.

To be honest this was my first thought, and it probably IS how you deal with her. But as we already know, if you're a super good character most of the time, but you have a short period where you're bad, that's still very dangerous, since the opponent HAS to approach during that limited window of badness. It's very akin to pre-nerf Rosalina. Yes, in theory you can approach when Luma's dead, but the fact that you HAVE to approach during that tiny window makes it predictable.

 

[Conda]

Speaking of Greninja, I'm not very convinced of his strength as a speedster compared to the others. Aerially he's not that dominant, and he has a hard time approaching. Things don't seem to flow well once he's in close range, and he doesn't get much reward from approaching as a result. His hitboxes on his non-smashes are tiny and easy to dodge, and easy for some quicker and more hard-hitting characters to take advantage of.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Reflector?

Alternatively you could just go over or try to poke with that fireball.

The endlag of Fast Capsule and even normal Pill is pretty negligible compared to the space they control. IDK how you actually punish Fast Capsule besides being able to reliably and actually close the gap.

And I am damn sure Palutena would not want to run Reflector over Super Speed vs. Doc and lose one of her strongest custom options in favor of trying to reflect a projectile that has barely enough endlag to make it matter.

Punishing Fast Capsule is essentially REALLY hard because it's basically a Falco laser with much less damage, a bit more lag, and slightly less range.

 

[Thinkaman]

Reflector?

Same slot as Super Speed.

Alternatively you could just go over or try to poke with that fireball.

You have to be timid with your jumping (which is the correct solution), since Palutena hates being over people as much as they hate being over her.

Explosive Flame is poor in neutral, only good for punishing the most conservative camping.

To be honest this was my first thought, and it probably IS how you deal with her. But as we already know, if you're a super good character most of the time, but you have a short period where you're bad, that's still very dangerous, since the opponent HAS to approach during that limited window of badness. It's very akin to pre-nerf Rosalina. Yes, in theory you can approach when Luma's dead, but the fact that you HAVE to approach during that tiny window makes it predictable.

The main difference is that Rosalina has d-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash as terrific approach-punishing melee tools. Palutena has to make do with just jab and grab, which have lower reward in LW penalty time. F-tilt is okay, but VERY unsafe. Pivot f-smash is also a go-big-or-go-home option, but LW penalty nixes it.

 

[FullMoon]

Speaking of Greninja, I'm not very convinced of his strength as a speedster compared to the others. Aerially he's not that dominant, and he has a hard time approaching. Things don't seem to flow well once he's in close range, and he doesn't get much reward from approaching as a result. His hitboxes on his non-smashes are tiny and easy to dodge, and easy for some quicker and more hard-hitting characters to take advantage of.

It's kinda weird to talk about Greninja to be honest. Usually he's the one that forces approaches because shurikens are fast projectile with good range and a lot of times the characters who have the easiest time against him are the ones who can outcamp and keep up with his speed (like Fox and Sheik) but even then Greninja can still keep up with them and isn't completely helpless when dealing with them.

I can't really say much about this. Greninja has a more defensive playstyle compared to other speedster characters and he relies a lot on outmaneuvering his opponents in order to get the advantage and bring the pain. He has a pretty high skill ceiling to go over but I dunno, he just... Works.

I mean he's obviously not as good as Sheik or ZSS but I feel like he has enough going for him to be at the Top 20. He has one of the best overall mobilities in the game and his moves combo into each other pretty well allowing to deal a good amount of damage. His recovery is among the best and while Shadow Sneak is a very gimmicky move, it does have it's moments and has good power behind it to justify it's use.

I'm not the best person to talk about this but... I just feel like that while Greninja has plenty of flaws, he still has a lot going for him. He actually feels pretty balanced overall but that may be just me.

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, brace yourself for a bold claim:

Custom Palutena Ditto is the best matchup in the game.

Interesting properties:

• Super Speed vs. Super Speed is intense.
  • When you empty clash and bounce backwards off each other, it's just hilarious.
  • When you both Dash Attack, you just complete the animations and skid through each other, ending up back-to-back.
• Lightweight is good, but you'd prefer to be the one to Lightweight second so you have yours up during their penalty time.
• Explosive Flame, for all its faults in neutral, is good at walling long-range Super Speed.
  • Simultaneous Explosive Flame is hilarious.

We DBZ now.

 

[FullMoon]

Also, brace yourself for a bold claim:

Custom Palutena Ditto is the best matchup in the game.

Interesting properties:

• Super Speed vs. Super Speed is intense.
  • When you empty clash and bounce backwards off each other, it's just hilarious.
  • When you both Dash Attack, you just complete the animations and skid through each other, ending up back-to-back.
• Lightweight is good, but you'd prefer to be the one to Lightweight second so you have yours up during their penalty time.
• Explosive Flame, for all its faults in neutral, is good at walling long-range Super Speed.
  • Simultaneous Explosive Flame is hilarious.

We DBZ now.

I need vids.

 

[Kofu]

Hey, one note I had about custom Palutena after a brief training stint with her yesterday: Rocket Jump is a really good OoS option. It's got KO power and comes out fast (according to Mastercore2, frame 2). It's the worst of her up-Bs for recovery but that's not quite as big a deal with Super Speed and Lightweight. You also lose Warp mixups unfortunately.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i think bowser is top 10 with customs. and explosive fire breath seems to be a better option to me as well in terms of damage.

Hey, one note I had about custom Palutena after a brief training stint with her yesterday: Rocket Jump is a really good OoS option. It's got KO power and comes out fast (according to Mastercore2, frame 2). It's the worst of her up-Bs for recovery but that's not quite as big a deal with Super Speed and Lightweight. You also lose Warp mixups unfortunately.

it also has a neat spike box at the bottom of it so its edge guarding abilities are pretty strong. basically it like the biggest risk 2 recover low.

 

[NairWizard]

Also, brace yourself for a bold claim:

OBJECTION

Custom Palutena Ditto is the best matchup in the game.

This isn't actually in bold font.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So here are my thoughts on the Customs Palutena vs. Customs Doc matchup.

Definitely not a ****ing 8-2 LOL

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey, one note I had about custom Palutena after a brief training stint with her yesterday: Rocket Jump is a really good OoS option. It's got KO power and comes out fast (according to Mastercore2, frame 2). It's the worst of her up-Bs for recovery but that's not quite as big a deal with Super Speed and Lightweight. You also lose Warp mixups unfortunately.

It comes out like frame 10 or so.

Specials often have multiple animations that make such inferences difficult.

Rocket Jump is... okay, but not good, and certainly no Warp. It doesn't fix Palutena's OoS problem.

Edit: Looks like it's frame 11.

 

[Kofu]

It comes out like frame 10 or so.

Specials often have multiple animations that make such inferences difficult.

Rocket Jump is... okay, but not good, and certainly no Warp. It doesn't fix Palutena's OoS problem.

Well that sucks. And here I thought I was onto something.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

whatdo u guys think about d3's customs?
in particular the down b and side b? i think d3 can get some awsome set ups if mixed and match correctly. also both custom down b's seem like better options even if one hurts more.

i have a video this guy actually has some usefull information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfIVMuH1hWg

 

[Shaya]

It has a lot of kill power though and can be combo'd into more reliably than people think and has IMO pretty daunting kill power. it has a similar niche in off stage usability as say ZSS's flip jump back kick.

It's height and free fall speed get heavily advanced by light weight too.

 

[meleebrawler]

One thing that bugs me is how "bad" characters like Dr. Mario or Zelda
tend to be given unfavourable matchup ratios against other characters without serious thought,
just because they're "bad" characters going up against "good" characters. It may be
true in a lot of cases, one shouldn't dismiss matchups based on reputations.

Concerning Greninja... his mobility is pretty understated now that I think about it.
Almost every aspect of it is at least above average, with only his walking speed being
unremarkable. Above average dash with a decent DA and favourable dash grab, super high
jump rivalled only by Falco, along with falling very fast only with a fast fall, thus giving it's benefits
while avoiding it's drawbacks of easy comboability. Air speed is alright, and he can wall cling and
crawl, though he's so low by default anyway he practically doesn't need it. The only thing he can't
do is jump multiple times. All this lets him potentially catch his enemy almost no matter where he sends them.

But it also comes at the cost of attack speed and safety. His moveset is just not designed for
straight up aggression, instead having moves that must be precisely aimed for maximum benefit.
He also has poor out of shield options, so he must use his mobility to maximum benefit to stay
out of trouble until he finds an opening.

 

[Antonykun]

The nitpicking over numbers is as inadvisable as making super-serious tier lists - an early meta is an early meta. Matchup discussion is super useful, but when reduced to simple ratio number it becomes pretty useless to readers.

Ty I hate it when people fret over the numbers like for example:
Swordfighter has a 70:30 against Diddy
What does this mean? you don't know other than some guy thinks that Swordfighter is 70:30 over Diddy

 

[Lavani]

whatdo u guys think about d3's customs?
in particular the down b and side b?

Topspin Gordo takes years to start up and is still reflected for free. Bouncing Gordo lingers on the field for a good while, but is much less rewarding on hit and, again, can turn into being your opponent's lingering projectile pretty easily. On the other hand, Dedede can also throw it much higher/farther than the other Gordos, so it can actually be used to combat projectile camping or to punish opponents recovering high. Bouncing can do some fun stuff, but default's generally the best for both reward and versatility.

All downB variants are booty. Default has the most kill power by a substantial margin, Armored isn't actually a usable anti-juggle tool because its super armor only functions grounded iirc, Dash is weak and air versions of all Jet Hammers are weaker, so even its niche as a sort of air dash attack is dubious at best.

I don't have much of an opinion on his other customs, Rising Dedede is cool but I like it less after 1.0.4 ruined its combo potential with dthrow (used to be a kill combo, dthrow's new trajectory either results in the weak hit or nothing at all). Dedede doesn't really get "better" moves from customs, just more options.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Topspin Gordo takes years to start up and is still reflected for free. Bouncing Gordo lingers on the field for a good while, but is much less rewarding on hit and, again, can turn into being your opponent's lingering projectile pretty easily. On the other hand, Dedede can also throw it much higher/farther than the other Gordos, so it can actually be used to combat projectile camping or to punish opponents recovering high. Bouncing can do some fun stuff, but default's generally the best for both reward and versatility.

All downB variants are booty. Default has the most kill power by a substantial margin, Armored isn't actually a usable anti-juggle tool because its super armor only functions grounded iirc, Dash is weak and air versions of all Jet Hammers are weaker, so even its niche as a sort of air dash attack is dubious at best.

I don't have much of an opinion on his other customs, Rising Dedede is cool but I like it less after 1.0.4 ruined its combo potential with dthrow (used to be a kill combo, dthrow's new trajectory either results in the weak hit or nothing at all). Dedede doesn't really get "better" moves from customs, just more options.

dashing hammer still seems more use full. a hit is a hit and if it can keep him on opponents why not?
cuz it really seems eons easyer to hit with dashing hammer.

 

[Thinkaman]

Armored isn't actually a usable anti-juggle tool because its super armor only functions grounded iirc

I can confirm this.

 

[meleebrawler]

dashing hammer still seems more use full. a hit is a hit and if it can keep him on opponents why not?
cuz it really seems eons easyer to hit with dashing hammer.

You know charging it forces him to back up, right? And the swing is as laggy as ever.

And he needs to charge it quite a bit to get any respectable distance.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You know charging it forces him to back up, right? And the swing is as laggy as ever.

And he needs to charge it quite a bit to get any respectable distance.

you can still move? with it. an respectably i dont imagine ever charaging it that long any way.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh goodness Tero saying Little Mac was OP back then and was Yoshi's hardest counter.

Edit: Oh, I missed a page.
Whoops.

Carry on lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh goodness Tero saying Little Mac was OP back then and was Yoshi's hardest counter.

Edit: Oh, I missed a page.
Whoops.

Carry on lol

still dont think yoshi has a great mu against mac though.

 

[FullMoon]

Concerning Greninja... his mobility is pretty understated now that I think about it. Almost every aspect of it is at least above average, with only his walking speed being unremarkable.

... Greninja has the 4th fastest walking speed what are you talking about?

 

[Thinkaman]

still dont think yoshi has a great mu against mac though.

I played a ton of Mac vs. Yoshi the other day. Yoshi's command grab, aerial mobility (for purpose of resetting), and ability to safeguard his ledge-grabs with eggs make the matchup pretty firmly in his favor--definitely in the bottom half of Mac's preferred matchups.

 

[meleebrawler]

you can still move? with it. an respectably i dont imagine ever charaging it that long any way.

Once it's fully charged, walking pretty much does nothing. Finally, the
move is so weak compared to the others it's quite likely he'll get punished even if he lands it.

@ FullMoon is that right? Well, that just seals the deal on Greninja's great mobility.
I guess it's just hard to be impressed by the speed of walking in general. My bad.

 

[thehard]

Ty I hate it when people fret over the numbers like for example:
Swordfighter has a 70:30 against Diddy
What does this mean? you don't know other than some guy thinks that Swordfighter is 70:30 over Diddy

Nah, it's definitely 65:35

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I played a ton of Mac vs. Yoshi the other day. Yoshi's command grab, aerial mobility (for purpose of resetting), and ability to safeguard his ledge-grabs with eggs make the matchup pretty firmly in his favor--definitely in the bottom half of Mac's preferred matchups.

well im not terribly experienced in that mu i will take your word for it.

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon is that right? Well, that just seals the deal on Greninja's great mobility.
I guess it's just hard to be impressed by the speed of walking in general. My bad.

According to Aerodrome's chart, yeah.

Overall I think Greninja has the best mobility in the game. Having the 6th fastest running speed, 4th fastest walking speed, 2nd highest jump, 3rd fastest falling speed, 4th fastest fast fall speed and 5th highest air speed.

Fox technically is better for the most part, but his air speed is quite low compared to Greninja and he doesn't jump as high. So who is the best is up to debate.

 

[thehard]

According to Aerodrome's chart, yeah.

Overall I think Greninja has the best mobility in the game. Having the 6th fastest running speed, 4th fastest walking speed, 2nd highest jump, 3rd fastest falling speed, 4th fastest fast fall speed and 5th highest air speed.

Fox technically is better for the most part, but his air speed is quite low compared to Greninja and he doesn't jump as high. So who is the best is up to debate.

Without meaning to be ignint, what does Greninja offer over Sheik?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Without meaning to be ignint, what does Greninja offer over Sheik?

what does anyone thats not fox,diddy,ness,pika,rosa,captain,olimar,and shulk offer over shiek?