Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

In terms of custom moves, I haven't had a chance to play with them really, but I remember wanting so badly to be able to use Mega Man's Hyper Bombs because who cares about dumb weak Metal Blade huh???

Silly me, not realizing that Metal Blade is one of Mega Man's best moves.

its his best move in his games why would it not be in smash? Xd

 

[Nobie]

its his best move in his games why would it not be in smash? Xd

I think I was upset that you could only throw one at a time and not unleash a flurry of them like in the games.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Note to self: The surest way to get support for a new ruleset is to find a video where implementing such a ruleset creates hype.

 

[Tagxy]

This sort of covers what Ive discussed before, particularly all the crouching/shielding/small hitbox stuff. I was actually the first one to mention this to Larry but it was mostly in regards to pika.

@ Shaya when we had our discussion about Diddy's fair against ZSS this is sort of what I meant regarding crouching.

I think right now we have a meta that sort of revolves around short hop aerials as a carry over from Brawl, and greater usage of ground tools (as well as pivoting tools like perfect pivots, pivot tilts, etc.) will someday play a more important roll (reducing your hurtbox is particularly effective against a spacing diddy).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I swear everytime someone makes a video about footsies, neutral, zoning or any fundamental aspect of the game you can bet on your mothers grave the hero-king will make an appearance.

Is he now the poster boy for fighting game fundamentals of this series?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I swear everytime someone makes a video about footsies, neutral, zoning or any fundamental aspect of the game you can bet on your mothers grave the hero-king will make an appearance.

Is he now the poster boy for fighting game fundamentals of this series?

I mean, his tippers reward you for mastering one of the most fundamental aspects of a fighting game (spacing), so...yes? I always figured that was the reasoning.

 

[Ffamran]

Huh

I swear everytime someone makes a video about footsies, neutral, zoning or any fundamental aspect of the game you can bet on your mothers grave the hero-king will make an appearance.

Is he now the poster boy for fighting game fundamentals of this series?

It's funny how Mario is the poster boy for regular, basic gameplay and Bowser's the dummy from the developer's side of tutorials while Marth is the poster boy for basic competitive gameplay.

 

[NinjaLink]

I'm just happy to see a talented player who really knows how to use her best customs. Aerolink is strong but has idiosyncratic custom preferences, and Ninjalink is talented but less familiar with her abilities.

And yeah, her setups are pretty dumb. I still can't get over the fact that a few of her normal moves range from situational to bad, but I almost think that's necessary with how absurd her Jab/Grab, DA, aerials (minus DAir), and B moves are.

I'm quite familiar actually but I do have a question. I encountered a freefall glitch with palutena and dont know how to recreate it. Anyone know about it?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm quite familiar actually but I do have a question. I encountered a freefall glitch with palutena and dont know how to recreate it. Anyone know about it?

Do you have more details?

Oh, and while this is really late, but awesome videos on the Customs, NinjaLink.

 

[NinjaLink]

Do you have more details?

Oh, and while this is really late, but awesome videos on the Customs, NinjaLink.

I have video proof of it but ppl suck at uploading it to youtube. I believe the game thinks I did an attack from Jump Glide so it goes into freefall. I tried to recreate it and I got nothing. One instance was i grabbed the ledge, ledgehopped into fair, tried to pull back to up-b again and went into free fall. some other time i got grabbed, sent into the air, i did an aerial, went into freefall. It costed me a match cause theres absolutely no reason for it to happen.

Thanks. I plan to redo all of them cause the patch changed some things and also some moves has undiscovered properties about them.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have video proof of it but ppl suck at uploading it to youtube. I believe the game thinks I did an attack from Jump Glide so it goes into freefall. I tried to recreate it and I got nothing. One instance was i grabbed the ledge, ledgehopped into fair, tried to pull back to up-b again and went into free fall. some other time i got grabbed, sent into the air, i did an aerial, went into freefall. It costed me a match cause theres absolutely no reason for it to happen.

Thanks. I plan to redo all of them cause the patch changed some things and also some moves has undiscovered properties about them.

A redo sounds interesting, I look forward to it.

 

[thehard]

This sort of covers what Ive discussed before, particularly all the crouching/shielding/small hitbox stuff. I was actually the first one to mention this to Larry but it was mostly in regards to pika.

@ Shaya when we had our discussion about Diddy's fair against ZSS this is sort of what I meant regarding crouching.

I think right now we have a meta that sort of revolves around short hop aerials as a carry over from Brawl, and greater usage of ground tools (as well as pivoting tools like perfect pivots, pivot tilts, etc.) will someday play a more important roll (reducing your hurtbox is particularly effective against a spacing diddy).

You know what's underrated in SmUsh? Down tilts. A lot of characters have really fast ones that combo into themselves and/or trip. The fact that you crouch to perform them and your hitbox is shrunk is only a boon. I don't think they're being used to their full potential.

I've been playing a lot of DK and Kirby and they have really helpful ones. Great for racking up damage and throwing your opponent off. Not only do they never expect it, they never expect the endlag to be so short.

SH nair --> d-tilt --> d-tilt --> dash attack is a good string for both those chars

 

[Ffamran]

You know what's underrated in SmUsh? Down tilts. A lot of characters have really fast ones that combo into themselves and/or trip. The fact that you crouch to perform them and your hitbox is shrunk is only a boon. I don't think they're being used to their full potential.

I've been playing a lot of DK and Kirby and they have really helpful ones. Great for racking up damage and throwing your opponent off. Not only do they never expect it, they never expect the endlag to be so short.

SH nair --> d-tilt --> d-tilt --> dash attack is a good string for both those chars

Ike's and Shulk's Dtilts are fast and have good range, Falco's Dtilt has a slightly deceptive range, kills, and basically acts as a launcher for follow-ups, Zelda basically relies on Dtilt for combos and setups, we all know about the awesomeness that is Mega Man's Dtilt, the Slide, Marth's/Lucina's Dtilt is good for poking, well, Marth's is, and Bowser's Dtilt is great as well.

I don't know, maybe it's people slowly figuring out stuff like Dr. Mario's Doctor Tornado being used for edgeguarding.

 

[Nobie]

Ike's and Shulk's Dtilts are fast and have good range, Falco's Dtilt has a slightly deceptive range, kills, and basically acts as a launcher for follow-ups, Zelda basically relies on Dtilt for combos and setups, we all know about the awesomeness that is Mega Man's Dtilt, the Slide, Marth's/Lucina's Dtilt is good for poking, well, Marth's is, and Bowser's Dtilt is great as well.

I don't know, maybe it's people slowly figuring out stuff like Dr. Mario's Doctor Tornado being used for edgeguarding.

Ness's down tilt is absurd with its rapid fire and tripping properties that lead into throw setups for days.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

ganon's been d tilting bedore it was cool.

 

[Ffamran]

ganon's been d tilting bedore it was cool.

Technically Mega Man's been Dtilting way before Ganondorf has. Slide debuted in Mega Man 3 if I looked up the info correctly. So, that's from 1990.

But yeah, not a lot of Dtilts being used sometimes.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Technically Mega Man's been Dtilting way before Ganondorf has. Slide debuted in Mega Man 3 if I looked up the info correctly. So, that's from 1990.

But yeah, not a lot of Dtilts being used sometimes.

cant argue there
pits is also amazing btw

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Rosalina's dtilt is her fastest normal when Luma's not around so that's handy, but it has a lot of functional overlap with the longer ranged ftilt that also has a generally better associated Luma attack (Luma dtilt isn't so much bad as it is... unusual and more limited in application). I use dtilt some but it's not one of my top moves. As an old Brawl G&W main I'm all about loving the dtilts, but I just kinda feel like for a lot of characters in this game ftilt is such a good button that dtilt ends up kinda overshadowed even if the dtilt itself is pretty good.

 

[Luco]

Ness's down tilt is absurd with its rapid fire and tripping properties that lead into throw setups for days.

Kinda of yeah, but really only as a mix-up. It can't be used as a B&B move at this point in time, there's I think 7/8 frames between Dtilts at best and most people can jab through them after you do a couple. Getting the trip is really handy, though I think from memory you can't grab them when they're tripped? There's a position I know you can't grab people in... it's probably 'slam' position actually, now that I think about it. Dunno, I might have to test it out. :3

 

[Lavani]

Kinda of yeah, but really only as a mix-up. It can't be used as a B&B move at this point in time, there's I think 7/8 frames between Dtilts at best and most people can jab through them after you do a couple. Getting the trip is really handy, though I think from memory you can't grab them when they're tripped? There's a position I know you can't grab people in... it's probably 'slam' position actually, now that I think about it. Dunno, I might have to test it out. :3

Dtilt trip>grab is a pretty standard thing for Meta Knight, it's the knocked down state that prevents grabs.

Though Rosalina can still boost grab knocked down opponents, since Luma will continue its dash attack and pop them up into Rosa's grab.

 

[Ffamran]

What is Fox's Dtilt used for? Same with Captain Falcon's Dtilt.

Also, Triple D's Dtilt is ludicrous. The range it covers and its hitbox is both funny and pretty good.

 

[Luco]

Dtilt trip>grab is a pretty standard thing for Meta Knight, it's the knocked down state that prevents grabs.

Though Rosalina can still boost grab knocked down opponents, since Luma will continue its dash attack and pop them up into Rosa's grab.

Ahh yep, that makes sense. Still, the Dtilt is a little unreliable to be used like other characters' Dtilts in a close-range situation.

What is Fox's Dtilt used for? Same with Captain Falcon's Dtilt.

Also, Triple D's Dtilt is ludicrous. The range it covers and its hitbox is both funny and pretty good.

Fox's Dtilt seems to cover the edge for a while to take advantage of that ledge sweetspot vulnerability. This is where I try to use Ness' Dtilt as well, though it only catches peeps about 50% of the time and we're working on a better way to take advantage of it.

I assume Falcon's Dtilt is used for the same thing?

 

[Ffamran]

Fox's Dtilt seems to cover the edge for a while to take advantage of that ledge sweetspot vulnerability. This is where I try to use Ness' Dtilt as well, though it only catches peeps about 50% of the time and we're working on a better way to take advantage of it.

I assume Falcon's Dtilt is used for the same thing?

Captain Falcon's Dtilt might be able to punish spot-dodges and its range might be good as well, but I don't know how well it covers the ground. It could work more against a person overshooting the ledge or someone trying to "fall" onto the ledge, but it might not work on someone recovering low. Now I'm wondering about his Ftilt as well. I might want to look this up at the Captain Falcon boards.

This also leads to Fox's Ftilt... Fox could just Jab, short hop a Nair or Bair, or Dash Attack.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

[Fox's] dtilt could have decent start-up and active frames?

@NAKAT

Smooth Criminal

 

[Chuva]

Falcon's DTilt is great for edgeguarding, very effective at sniping people trying to reach the ledge thanks to it's good horizontal hitbox and horizontal KB.

 

[Luco]

Captain Falcon's Dtilt might be able to punish spot-dodges and its range might be good as well, but I don't know how well it covers the ground. It could work more against a person overshooting the ledge or someone trying to "fall" onto the ledge, but it might not work on someone recovering low. Now I'm wondering about his Ftilt as well. I might want to look this up at the Captain Falcon boards.

This also leads to Fox's Ftilt... Fox could just Jab, short hop a Nair or Bair, or Dash Attack.

Well the good thing about Fox's Dtilt is it covers people coming up from below whereas I somewhat doubt the other options would. :3

Knowing its active frames would be nice though. ^^

 

[Ffamran]

[Fox's] dtilt could have decent start-up and active frames?

@NAKAT

Smooth Criminal

Fox's Dtilt comes out at frame 7 - same as Falco's - and lasts until frame 9. So, 3 frames of activity? Frames 7, 8, and 9. From the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread. Link from that thread: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

Here's the rest of its info:

D-tilt
Frame 7- 9: 8% 25b/100g (KO@ 221%) 45° 0.4-Trip
Frame 7- 9: 8% 25b/100g (KO@ 248%) 65° 0.4-Trip
Frame 7- 9: 7% 25b/100g (KO@ 260%) 80° 0.4-Trip
Frame 7- 9: 6% 25b/100g (KO@ 291%) 90° 0.4-Trip
Max Damage: 8%

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Gracias, Daffy.

not as beefy/lingering as I thought, but it offers some coverage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Gracias, Daffy.

not as beefy/lingering as I thought, but it offers some coverage.

Smooth Criminal

I had a Fox setup up a combo with Dtilt before, but otherwise, I don't really know what it should be used for aside from what people have told me like edgeguarding.

The setup was Dtilt into Fair or Dtilt to Dash Attack and then Fair or maybe Nair or some variation of it. It was surprising since I don't see a lot of Dtilts from Fox's. Instead it's usually Dash Attacks, F-throws, Utilts, and Jab combos on the ground. In the air, it's mostly Nairs, Fairs, Dairs, and Uairs. In most cases, Fox's want that Uair, Up Smash, and sometimes Side Smash kills. I don't see a lot of Ftilts or Dtilts from them. Sometimes there are Bairs and Down Smashes, but that's it.

I guess it's because of playing Falco so much, I'm used to using Dtilts and Ftilts a lot that it sometimes makes me wonder why a character isn't using them. All moves have a purpose no matter how niche they are and sometimes, those niche ones will catch you off guard like me getting combo'd out of Fox's Dtilt - I didn't know that was possible.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

All moves have a purpose no matter how niche they are and sometimes, those niche ones will catch you off guard like me getting combo'd out of Fox's Dtilt - I didn't know that was possible.

Vanilla Jet Hammer would like a word with you. :v

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trifroze]

Neither Falcon's ftilt or dtilt are particularly good because most of the time you'll rather go for a dash grab that you can execute in a similar time frame but cover a ton more distance and put the opponent into a much worse position. The tilts have their uses though. For instance, I use Falcon's ftilt for safe frametraps and footsies after whiffed aerials (similarly to falling uair into jab).

Dtilt on the other hand is good for edgeguarding and gimping characters with bad horizontal recovery like mentioned already, mainly because it's a low risk high reward option if they're recovering high, and you have dair if they recover low. Furthermore, you can condition and switch between the two, and with Falcon being one of the best if not the best character at forcing opponents offstage with dashgrab into fthrow at high% or dthrow into nair or two at low %, that makes him one of the most lethal characters in the game. As if dtilt and dair aren't enough, you also have utilt spike, drop down knee and the weak knee for gimps.

I don't think dtilt catches the 1 frame ledge vulnerability though, but it's really easy with bair.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i dont know about other people but at high percents CF d tilt is a decent kill option.

 

[FimPhym]

What is Fox's Dtilt used for? Same with Captain Falcon's Dtilt.

Also, Triple D's Dtilt is ludicrous. The range it covers and its hitbox is both funny and pretty good.

Dedede's down tilt is also his fastest grounded attack. From his perspective it is a mighty dragon punch to get people off you for pushing buttons.

In reality it comes out on frame 6. It does its job, though, sometimes!

For comparison jab is frame 10 but outranges marth f smash or something close.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

While D3's tuck-and-roll dtilt isn't the cleanest reversal in the book, it is his best grounded option, yes. It's hella good out of shield, too.

The biggest assets of D3's jabs lie not just in their range but how straight up beefy they are. The hitboxes are huge (jab 2 holy ****), disjointed, and they linger for a bit. They create a good chunk of workable space for D3 to counterpoke in.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Vanilla Jet Hammer would like a word with you. :v

Smooth Criminal

What's wrong with it?

While D3's tuck-and-roll dtilt isn't the cleanest reversal in the book, it is his best grounded option, yes. It's hella good out of shield, too.

The biggest assets of D3's jabs lie not just in their range but how straight up beefy they are. The hitboxes are huge (jab 2 holy ****), disjointed, and they linger for a bit. They create a good chunk of workable space for D3 to counterpoke in.

Smooth Criminal

He's using a hammer. Whaddya expect the hitboxes to be like?

Anyway, his hammer's hitboxes are really good. The freaking twirl for his Jab and Ftilt are annoying if you're playing a character whose range isn't all that great.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What's wrong with it?

Oh you know just USELESS THINGS. Like, sure, at minimum charge it comes out about as fast as one of his jabs MOLASSES, but it does piddily damage (averaging 11% or so?) within 10 frames with little in the way of substantial KB. You can't follow up, you have horrible recovery frames after the fact. You have to charge the move to get any use out of it, and even then it's kinda buttcheeks. I'd rather off somebody with a guesstimated, halfway to fully charged f-smash than a hammer; it's more reliable.

(Armored Jet Hammer...now that has some niche use.)

He's using a hammer. Whaddya expect the hitboxes to be like?

Anyway, his hammer's hitboxes are really good. The freaking twirl for his Jab and Ftilt are annoying if you're playing a character whose range isn't all that great.

Wink, wink.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavani]

Oh you know just USELESS THINGS. Like, sure, at minimum charge it comes out about as fast as a jab

Hah, you wish it were that good, but you can't just look at the data dump for that move because the startup/charging animations are their own subactions. It actually hits frame 27 uncharged.

Buttcheeks indeed.

And while Dedede's dtilt is a topic, why is the hitbox in front of him? Why does he whiff pointblank against most characters?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hah, you wish it were that good, but you can't just look at the data dump for that move because the startup/charging animations are their own subactions. It actually hits frame 27 uncharged.

YO I MISREAD THANK YOU LAVANI FOR BEING THE ROYAL FACT-CHECKER

SEE EVEN WORSE

Just...why on Earth would you use this move?

Back to a more relevant move:

I always envisioned d-tilt's hitbox kinda scything in a half-circle motion, with the meat of it starting somewhere after the apex of the roll and tapering off to the tip of his feet. So, maybe some characters have wonky hurtboxes that narrowly avoid it, starting around where the hitbox for the move tapers off?

What have you seen, Lavani, and against what characters?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nocally]

Pikachu´s down tilt is a great combo starter at low percents (d-tilt trip to grab or double d-tilt) a good combo starter if the opponent doesn't tech the ground. A quick spacing tool, and Pikachu´s hurtbox is low, which enables him to go under a lot of the opponents moves.

A personal favorite use of mine is to Down-tilt to retreating/approaching thunder jolt.

 

[Ffamran]

YO I MISREAD THANK YOU LAVANI FOR BEING THE ROYAL FACT-CHECKER

SEE EVEN WORSE

Just...why on Earth would you use this move?

Smooth Criminal

To land a good read?