Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Speaking of custom moves... are they being picked up yet? Are there any interesting weeklys or anything that have started using them that I could watch?

Right now it's pretty difficult to find any Custom-On Tournaments due to the fact that no one has them all unlocked. The developers made this endeavor more difficult than it should've been, and applying this to all set-ups will make this very tedious.

Smashboards is attempting to get this to work, but it's going to take some time.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Which characters considered high and top tier does luigi get smoked by. I feel he has the tools to handle almost anyone and once he gets in he wrecks shop. I thought luigi felt mid tier when the game first dropped but I'm even staring to think he could be a top 10 character. He kills great and has amazing combos and damage. Whats everyone's opinion we think he could be a top 10 character long term?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Just wanna say there's a huge difference in "development" from Rosalina actually having to play her well not counting luma and dumb fast disjoints to Dthrow into every aerial, the character.

Though still of course agree Diddy doesn't need a ban.

rosalina player here

prenerf rosalina was completely braindead, nair and dtilt beat literally every option in the game harder than dthrow > aerial the character imo

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Which characters considered high and top tier does luigi get smoked by. I feel he has the tools to handle almost anyone and once he gets in he wrecks shop. I thought luigi felt mid tier when the game first dropped but I'm even staring to think he could be a top 10 character. He kills great and has amazing combos and damage. Whats everyone's opinion we think he could be a top 10 character long term?

I've seen Boss do great stuff with Luigi. Nair and Fsmash are amazing.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why is luigi fsmash amazing?

 

[Nobie]

Which characters considered high and top tier does luigi get smoked by. I feel he has the tools to handle almost anyone and once he gets in he wrecks shop. I thought luigi felt mid tier when the game first dropped but I'm even staring to think he could be a top 10 character. He kills great and has amazing combos and damage. Whats everyone's opinion we think he could be a top 10 character long term?

People are still on the fence as to whether Mega Man is either high tier or mid tier, but I think he likely has a strong matchup against Luigi due to possessing such a strong zoning game.

Luigi's fireball is good, but not as good as everything Mega Man can throw at him to prevent him from getting in, and Luigi's combination of floatiness and below average horizontal mobility in the air means that he's susceptible to getting chased from underneath by Mega Man up-airs. The ability to attack out of Up B I could also see making a difference, as does Mega Man's small size and above-average weight and fall speed, which i believe makes him a bit easy to juggle but difficult to kill outright. Not to mention, Mega Man's vertical KO moves are a threat to someone as floaty as Luigi. Not to mention that Luigi's recovery, with its strictly horizontal and vertical components (and Cyclone as well which gums this up a bit), is exactly the kind of thing that Mega Man can exploit with his down-air.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Why is luigi fsmash amazing?

Angled Fsmash has a lot of kill power behind it. Easily punishes air attacks on shield or whiffed attacks. Just a great OoS option overall.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Angled Fsmash has a lot of kill power behind it. Easily punishes air attacks on shield or whiffed attacks. Just a great OoS option overall.

its more or less mario's if anything mario's has more kill power angled.
F smash is okay but its more along the lines of Boss making strong reads.

 

[Shaya]

@ ~ Gheb ~ "mostly" entailed most of these characters lose to sheik and diddy.

Sheik is still very good. People are obviously going to drop her and move onto another character that's "easier" early on reaction to things being nerfed.
And I think early Brawl comparisons is actually pretty good. Meta Knight and Snake were seen as the best by far, and MK was the easiest within 2-3 months after people got over initial f/u tilt snake, there were a few character destroyers in Dedede and Falco due to chain grabs and people were complaining about MK; even hinting at a ban within only a short few tournaments of M2K playing him (everyone in every region had picked up MK by the time jason had won a regional or two).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ ~ Gheb ~ "mostly" entailed most of these characters lose to sheik and diddy.

And I reckon that Yoshi and Greninja are probably the only characters you mentioned that *might* lose to both.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ ~ Gheb ~ "mostly" entailed most of these characters lose to sheik and diddy.

Shaya, I hate to be a tad bit disrespectful here, but every fighter under the sun has its share of good characters and losing matchups. There's nothing suggesting a massive disparity, mechanically or otherwise, in relation to character MUs right now. Unless planking and sharking re-emerge, unless ledge mechanics become borked as Brawl's, unless Diddy Kong gets transcendent priority on all his freaking normals and can fly with his rocketbarrel pack, everything is A-OK.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Morbi]

I certainly don't think Diddy should be banned, but I disagree with many people in this thread who don't think Diddy is the best. I think Diddy is clearly the best character right now.

Just because Diddy doesn't place in the top 3 at every single tournament and that Diddy can be beat doesn't mean that Diddy isn't a step above the rest of the cast. No, Diddy is not broken. Yes, Diddy can be beat. But Diddy is the best character by a decent margin, in my opinion. No other character has the combination of Diddy's movement and kill power, and the downthrow to up-air is what puts him over the top.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest though because there is a 99.999% chance that Sakurai will nerf Diddy anyway. The question is when, not if. Sakurai stated in an interview recently that they just recently started working on Mewtwo. Realistically, Mewtwo will make Nintendo a lot of money, and even more SSB4 characters will be developed down the road. The point being, SSB4 is a game that will continue to be tinkered with for some time to come.

Sakurai is NOT ignorant of which characters are the most competitively viable. There was a very clear correlation between Japan's first tier list and which characters received nerfs.

So, with Diddy now as the only S tier character in Japan, nerfs are absolutely inevitable. And probably not just to only his downthrow like some people are thinking (although that's the most obvious nerf). There's a solid chance he will be nerfed across the board, similar to how Rosalina received literally about 20 different nerfs in the first balance patch. (Which people seem to forget, judging by all the people who want to use Rosalina as an example of how the meta can change. No, people didn't simply "figure Rosalina out." Rosalina was seriously nerfed. If she hadn't been touched she probably would have dominated Smash 4, so she needed nerfs, and she received them.)

So let's just appreciate this moment in time for what it is; It's the era of Diddy, which will soon come to its inevitable end. The only question is whether Diddy will be nerfed before or after Apex. My money is on after Apex, but the next patch is liable to hit us at any time. At the absolute latest, Diddy will be nerfed by the time Mewtwo arrives.

I agree with this sentiment, Rosalina was certainly nerfed across the board and I expect the same for Diddy Kong in the next patch; however, I would hope that Sakurai gives the meta-game a little more time to develop. Diddy is not being perceived as dominant as he once was as people are actually figuring out how to deal with him, unlike Rosalina. I just feel like it is a bit premature, he is the best, currently, two or three weeks in. But will he be in another month or so?

There is not a fine line between "best character" and "broken." I feel like we are not necessarily analyzing this objectively. Sure, Diddy could use come changes, but if and when he is nerfed, someone else will take over and people will surely demand that they are usurped as well. So on and so forth in an endless cycle until Nintendo decides to discontinue post-launch support.

I have not been following this thread for very long. But there is always talk of certain characters being "slept" on. We have not even begun experimenting with a lot of those characters. We are not an authority on what is or is not a character that needs re-balanced. At least not yet. That being said, most everything I asserted is blatant common sense and it will not alter the inevitable. The game is going to be changed based on the meta-game we create and everyone whining about Diddy Kong or whatever will get what they wish one way or the other. I just felt like ranting.

 

[NairWizard]

The talk of Diddy this, Diddy that is driving me nuts. I think that Pikachu is objectively and statistically a better version of Diddy Kong (an argument that I don't make with numbers because people are likely to discard it and remain skeptical without seeing a vast set of tournament results, so it'd be a waste of what would amount to a lot of effort), and I don't even think that Pikachu is the best character in the game (certainly not with customs on, probably not with customs off). People are tunnel-visioning pretty hard.

 

[Morbi]

The talk of Diddy this, Diddy that is driving me nuts. I think that Pikachu is objectively and statistically a better version of Diddy Kong (an argument that I don't make with numbers because people are likely to discard it and remain skeptical without seeing a vast set of tournament results, so it'd be a waste of what would amount to a lot of effort), and I don't even think that Pikachu is the best character in the game (certainly not with customs on, probably not with customs off). People are tunnel-visioning pretty hard.

If it makes you feel any better, I do agree. Pikachu is pure, raw, and unadulterated lust. However, without tournament results (or a d-throw, up-air KO option) he will forever (until the patch) be known as the objectively and statistically worse version of Diddy Kong. But hey, at least he can recover from virtually everywhere, that has to account for something! As for the best character in the game, I am of the opinion that there is none. I adamantly believe that the "best" character depends on the circumstances.

We live in a world where results speak louder than facts.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The talk of Diddy this, Diddy that is driving me nuts. I think that Pikachu is objectively and statistically a better version of Diddy Kong (an argument that I don't make with numbers because people are likely to discard it and remain skeptical without seeing a vast set of tournament results, so it'd be a waste of what would amount to a lot of effort), and I don't even think that Pikachu is the best character in the game (certainly not with customs on, probably not with customs off). People are tunnel-visioning pretty hard.

perhaps it because this argument can be very vauge though. statistically dk and ganon should be considered else were on tier list but people will once again tunnel vision. If a picture is not thrown right in there face they wont notice. even though iv seen a steady rise in the dk bandwagon.

@ Morbi
if results spoke louder than words there are deffinitly some things people are choosing to ignore then.

 

[Morbi]

perhaps it because this argument can be very vauge though. statistically dk and ganon should be considered else were on tier list but people will once again tunnel vision. If a picture is not thrown right in there face they wont notice. even though iv seen a steady rise in the dk bandwagon.

@ Morbi
if results spoke louder than words there are deffinitly some things people are choosing to ignore then.

That is true, I just feel like the immediate results are more overt to us. I doubt anyone looks up every single tournament placing and whatnot to determine which characters are winning the most frequently. There is a Diddy saturation, plain and simple. People see that and draw conclusions regarding his viability, or at least that is my theory on the matter. But, again, I am no authority on that matter.

 

[Jaxas]

The talk of Diddy this, Diddy that is driving me nuts. I think that Pikachu is objectively and statistically a better version of Diddy Kong (an argument that I don't make with numbers because people are likely to discard it and remain skeptical without seeing a vast set of tournament results, so it'd be a waste of what would amount to a lot of effort), and I don't even think that Pikachu is the best character in the game (certainly not with customs on, probably not with customs off). People are tunnel-visioning pretty hard.

It really seems to me like the reason for this is that Diddy is much easier to pick up, whereas Pika requires more practice and character knowledge.
Anyone with a solid understanding of Smash can look at Diddy and go "Okay, so I need to get grabs, since that does all my work for me." Combined with "I can approach easily with a 50-50 mixup from Monkey Flip".

Most other characters need more characters knowledge to hit acceptable levels of performance, which is probably why Diddy's considered the 'absolute best' right now.
I know that we had a few people around here pick up Diddy (one the day of the tournament) and do quite well with him, just because he's that easy to pick up.
I don't see any reason to believe that other characters won't surpass him eventually though, it just might take more time

 

[Shaya]

Shaya, I hate to be a tad bit disrespectful here, but every fighter under the sun has its share of good characters and losing matchups. There's nothing suggesting a massive disparity, mechanically or otherwise, in relation to character MUs right now. Unless planking and sharking re-emerge, unless ledge mechanics become borked as Brawl's, unless Diddy Kong gets transcendent priority on all his freaking normals and can fly with his rocketbarrel pack, everything is A-OK.

Smooth Criminal

I'm just deriving opinion directly from people I'm currently around, I'm confident in most of my statements for the time I am making them.
I'm obviously taking in bias as well, but I don't stipulate I'm being objective or all encompassing with my rhetoric.

We will adjust, but for this moment there is indeed truth in the fact metagames for two characters are advancing crazy fast and that disparity is already showing.
Top players are not willing to be completely transparent and revealing at this stage of their discoveries. In real match up number terms I'd feel 60:40ing or better a lot of the cast in the real sense, not the MK sense which was plastered over actual 80:20s or worse.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Top players are not willing to be completely transparent and revealing at this stage of their discoveries.

If you ask me that's somewhat disappointing, although I can understand wanting to have an ace for tournament play.

There's also the question of whether people will listen even when told about counter-tech. /shrug

 

[Locke 06]

We will adjust, but for this moment there is indeed truth in the fact metagames for two characters are advancing crazy fast and that disparity is already showing.

This. Someone. Please. Help develop. He has too interesting a moveset/character profile to just wallow and be disjointed aerials & a lesser Sonic spin dash.

 

[Shaya]

If you ask me that's somewhat disappointing, although I can understand wanting to have an ace for tournament play.

There's also the question of whether people will listen even when told about counter-tech. /shrug

Apex is too big/real.
For people in which the title of Apex Champion means at least a year of prestige and recognition, people aren't willing to make things any easier for electrical sam or any number of other Diddy or Sheik mains who's meta/training is completely hidden to the rest of the top level players.

If just one Apex threat is keeping secretive, they're all forced to do so.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm just deriving opinion directly from people I'm currently around, I'm confident in most of my statements for the time I am making them.
I'm obviously taking in bias as well, but I don't stipulate I'm being objective or all encompassing with my rhetoric.

We will adjust, but for this moment there is indeed truth in the fact metagames for two characters are advancing crazy fast and that disparity is already showing.
Top players are not willing to be completely transparent and revealing at this stage of their discoveries. In real match up number terms I'd feel 60:40ing or better a lot of the cast in the real sense, not the MK sense which was plastered over actual 80:20s or worse.

The game is only three months old. This rapid advancement is likely due to a high number of players playing. Characters with fewer players are not going to develop as fast.

Personally, I don't think Diddy and Rosalina are that hard to deal with (in theory). Diddy just needs a nerf on his UAir.

 

[Yonder]

Which characters considered high and top tier does luigi get smoked by. I feel he has the tools to handle almost anyone and once he gets in he wrecks shop. I thought luigi felt mid tier when the game first dropped but I'm even staring to think he could be a top 10 character. He kills great and has amazing combos and damage. Whats everyone's opinion we think he could be a top 10 character long term?

I main Luigi and I say he's about upper mid. I don't think he's top 10 though, he's still horrifyingly slow moving [A bit faster ground wise though than previous games, a bit buff...and leagues faster than Doc] and swords keep him out. He also has little answer to projectiles and his recovery is not amazing [just ok. With customs though, amazing]. He can also sometimes struggle for a kill, but he can still get it early with down throw to up b, up b, any smash attack, or sweetspotted bair, or dair. Actually, it's not too bad for a mid weight. Fireball feels ok, but not great in this game.

Main problems that can't be fixed though are weak approach options [sides tornado], slow movement, little way to counter projectiles, and easy to juggle. A high mid tier, but top 10 is too far. Japan has him 13th though so idk. This is Luigi's best showing though after the patch fixing his up B hitbox more and increasing F smash by a ton.

And he does possibly have the best combo/close up game out of everyone. Sides Little Mac I think.

 

[Kofu]

This. Someone. Please. Help develop. He has too interesting a moveset/character profile to just wallow and be disjointed aerials & a lesser Sonic spin dash.

His tilts are all very solid (most people are aware of this I think) and his FSmash is hilariously disjointed. His specials are all quite interesting as well (except maybe neutral B) and customs for the most part make them more interesting, especially the Mechakoopa variants.

The fact that the Junior Clown Car is basically Lagann is just the icing on the cake.

 

[NairWizard]

Development of a character's metagame doesn't require more than one devoted top-level player. ESAM has been the sole driving force for the Pikachu metagame in Brawl and Smash 4 for years now. Salem was the primary driving force (no one else played like he did when he did) for the ZSS metagame in Brawl, and he still won an Apex. You shouldn't really care about how underrepresented and "underdeveloped" your character is; be innovative and do something with your character that no one expects.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The fact that the Junior Clown Car is basically Lagann is just the icing on the cake.

Junior is clearly a Stand user. That Clown Car is his Stand.

Also, @ NairWizard is riiiiight. Play your character!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tagxy]

I'm just deriving opinion directly from people I'm currently around, I'm confident in most of my statements for the time I am making them.
I'm obviously taking in bias as well, but I don't stipulate I'm being objective or all encompassing with my rhetoric.

We will adjust, but for this moment there is indeed truth in the fact metagames for two characters are advancing crazy fast and that disparity is already showing.
Top players are not willing to be completely transparent and revealing at this stage of their discoveries. In real match up number terms I'd feel 60:40ing or better a lot of the cast in the real sense, not the MK sense which was plastered over actual 80:20s or worse.

I was afraid it had to do with the house. Who are the good ZSS, Greninja, Lucario, Pika, Yoshi, and Rosalina players that are being played to determine this? Certainly no one in SoCal, Fox being the exception who actually has been wrecking.

Ive already heard the spiel and between that and whats seen on facebook its apparent some players are trying to create a cover for bandwaggoning characters to achieve quick early success instead of developing harder ones, although Im sure theyve convinced themselves they have no other choice as well. The primary goal of many top level players is to succeed, not to develop a metagame, which makes it easy to see why theyve convinced themselves their options are limited and try to sell that spiel to everyone else and avoid being seen as a villain. It wasnt too long ago that Zero was complaining about how broken Rosalina was and how hed have no choice but to switch to her. I have no personal resentment for them but it should be noted how their views surround their goal.

@ ~ Gheb ~ And I think early Brawl comparisons is actually pretty good. Meta Knight and Snake were seen as the best by far, and MK was the easiest within 2-3 months after people got over initial f/u tilt snake, there were a few character destroyers in Dedede and Falco due to chain grabs and people were complaining about MK; even hinting at a ban within only a short few tournaments of M2K playing him (everyone in every region had picked up MK by the time jason had won a regional or two).

I mentioned circumstances which are relevant which I think is more important not necessarily the metagame. However on that note we never saw the same degree of bandwagons that existed in Brawl this early, various characters had multiple players actually develop them from months to years before switching. Additionally these characters were achieving strong results whereas all the shiek talk is theorycraft based around a single player (good theory but how is anyone going to compare this character to early metagame MK and Snake?)

It's such a shame that the oversight of removing vertical vectoring was derping up Diddy's game significantly (although appreciate down throw uair/bair with Marth).

I feel upair was even worse with vectoring because it was one of the only actually good vertical kill moves. Anything that hit from the ground had so much distance to travel that vectoring made them nerf bats. Agree with the overall sentiment of its oversight though and that adjustments must be made now that its removed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I was afraid it had to do with the house. Who are the good ZSS, Greninja, Lucario, Pika, Yoshi, and Rosalina players that are being played to determine this? Certainly no one in SoCal, Fox being the exception who actually has been wrecking.

Ive already heard the spiel and between that and whats seen on facebook its apparent some players are trying to create a cover for bandwaggoning characters to achieve quick early success instead of developing harder ones, although Im sure theyve convinced themselves they have no other choice as well. The primary goal of many top level players is to succeed, not to develop a metagame, which makes it easy to see why theyve convinced themselves their options are limited and try to sell that spiel to everyone else and avoid being seen as a villain. It wasnt too long ago that Zero was complaining about how broken Rosalina was and how hed have no choice but to switch to her. I have no personal resentment for them but it should be noted how their views surround their goal.

I mentioned circumstances which are very relevant not the metagame. However on that note we never saw the same degree of bandwagons that existed in Brawl this early, various characters had multiple players actually develop them from months to years before switching. Additionally these characters were achieving strong results whereas all the shiek talk is theorycraft based around a single player (good theory but how is anyone going to say this character to early metagame MK and Snake?)

Upair was even worse with vectoring because it was one of the only actually good vertical kill moves. Anything that hit from the ground had so much distance to travel that vectoring made them nerf bats.

i agree so much! people can be so sheepish.

 

[thehard]

Not to retread, but one thing I like about watching Diddy MUs is how players decide to recover from the floor after getting Banana'd. Seeing Diddys approach overzealously and miss a follow-up due to a bad read is funny.

 

[chipndip]

The talk of Diddy this, Diddy that is driving me nuts. I think that Pikachu is objectively and statistically a better version of Diddy Kong (an argument that I don't make with numbers because people are likely to discard it and remain skeptical without seeing a vast set of tournament results, so it'd be a waste of what would amount to a lot of effort), and I don't even think that Pikachu is the best character in the game (certainly not with customs on, probably not with customs off). People are tunnel-visioning pretty hard.

Problems:

1) He can't confirm into KOs as easily.

1.5) He can't auto-trip people into those confirms.

2) He has less KO power overall.

3) I'm pretty sure he's lighter.

4) In general meta when fighting Pikachu isn't nearly as bonkers as it is with Diddy.

Main thing Pikachu has going for him is his recovery, but since there's no banana to deal with, people can play the game much more intelligently without fearing that thing forcing them into eating a fist to the face...or a skyward kick to the butt. The problem with Diddy isn't him, per say. It's the sheer number of possible dead ends he creates every time he's in Monkey Flip range of you.

Yes, Pikachu's strong, but comparing ANYONE to the sheer number of possible "GOTCHA!" variables as Diddy right now is moderately naive.

 

[deepseadiva]

I was afraid it had to do with the house. Who are the good ZSS, Greninja, Lucario, Pika, Yoshi, and Rosalina players that are being played to determine this? Certainly no one in SoCal, Fox being the exception who actually has been wrecking.

Ive already heard the spiel and between that and whats seen on facebook its apparent some players are trying to create a cover for bandwaggoning characters to achieve quick early success instead of developing harder ones, although Im sure theyve convinced themselves they have no other choice as well. The primary goal of many top level players is to succeed, not to develop a metagame, which makes it easy to see why theyve convinced themselves their options are limited and try to sell that spiel to everyone else and avoid being seen as a villain. It wasnt too long ago that Zero was complaining about how broken Rosalina was and how hed have no choice but to switch to her. I have no personal resentment for them but it should be noted how their views surround their goal.

I mentioned circumstances which are very relevant not the metagame. However on that note we never saw the same degree of bandwagons that existed in Brawl this early, various characters had multiple players actually develop them from months to years before switching. Additionally these characters were achieving strong results whereas all the shiek talk is theorycraft based around a single player (good theory but how is anyone going to compare this character to early metagame MK and Snake?)

Upair was even worse with vectoring because it was one of the only actually good vertical kill moves. Anything that hit from the ground had so much distance to travel that vectoring made them nerf bats.

The first part of this post was very excellent.

 

[Thinkaman]

The first part of this post was very excellent.

Yeah, totally.

Social media has done really weird things to the way meta works. Literally every smashfest I've went to, everyone above the age of 18 just "knew" that Diddy was the best character. Even less than a week after release.

And essentially no one in St. Louis plays Diddy, largely as a direct result of that. This is unique, because this is the first time awareness of "tiers" outpaced selection of mains. So no one wants to pick up Diddy. No one wants to be That Guy.

I'm really apathetic on Diddy. Ok, he's overpowered. Ok, he's going to get nerfed. The world turns. Zzzzz.

I just wish someone around here played Diddy now, so I could actually learn the matchup.

 

[Nobie]

The "Diddy is the best" mentality has even bled into For Glory. Where previously players would switch to something like Little Mac upon losing, now more and more players are going straight for the monkey. There's a lot to be said (and of course has been said in this thread) about the internet and social media creating bandwagons, especially because for "some" reason, after Sakurai said Little Mac actually does the worse in For Glory he became less of a presence there overall.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I think Diddy is likely the best but he's not SO good you're going to be able to use him as a skill crutch like Metaknight.

Also if no one wants to play Diddy in your scene because he's the best that's silly. If you mesh with him and can help your scene grow you shouldn't worry about the stigma. Next time someone says, "I want to play Diddy but I don't want to be a tier *****." or whatever tell them it's a disservice to the group to NOT play him.

 

[Sinister Slush]

rosalina player here

prenerf rosalina was completely braindead, nair and dtilt beat literally every option in the game harder than dthrow > aerial the character imo

Ironic since many rosalina players before the nerf kept saying how she required half a brain to use + proper positioning with Luma and how she was anything but braindead whenever I or any others brought it up.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ironic since many rosalina players before the nerf kept saying how she required half a brain to use + proper positioning with Luma and how she was anything but braindead whenever I or any others brought it up.

To be fair, this is the sort of thing that evolves over time. Old Rosalina was only "braindead" with practice. I sure as hell would still have no idea what I'm doing and fail to play effectively, old or new.

I just appreciate that, when playing against a good Rosalina, I now no longer feel like in most matchups I am having to work significantly harder than her for similar results at a fundamental level. Really satisfied with the nerfs, very appropriate in magnitude. It's possible that more nerfs (or buffs) will prove to be needed later (she's a complicated character who is difficult to meta-predict), but for now I am quite content.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

who is better currently Wario or Luigi?

 

[meleebrawler]

who is better currently Wario or Luigi?

Nobody plays Wario so we don't know .

Joke aside what made you ask this question?
Curiosity? Trying to choose a main?

Wario is heavier and more maneuverable, as well as having
a great recovery with the bike. Waft takes time to build but
is a great surprise KO move when it is.

Luigi isn't as mobile, but he can jump higher on-stage and
has strong combos up close.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Just because I mained wario in brawl and he feels so bad in this game. I main sonic now but I want a fun secondary. Luigi looks strong but people still think he sucks. Wario just feels bottom tier to me still. And there's nothinf untapped about him. I was just curious who people think is better between wario or luigi.

 

[Rockaphin]

I've seen a lot of previous conversations about Counter Timber(still wish there were some good videos out there), but what about Super Timber? Slower yes, but I would think that the reward would be relatively high. Does it take more hits than the standard Timber?