Character Competitive Impressions

[Gre ninja'd]

I get that people think diddy is the best, in melee I thought donkey kong was the best until I was 11 (I swear one of my friends was actually green ranger).And diddy is definitely high tier, but I don't see top tier. I've seen, and even used the d-throw combos, and up air has great kill potential, but diddy just seems lacking in a lot of places compared to shiek. Diddy has more kill potential, but shiek has more combos. Shiek has better recovery, and arguably better projectiles. Diddy has bananas to get grabs, or down tilt, while shiek can f-tilt into grab if they don't jump out of it. I think that diddy has AMAZING combos and is very powerful, and is high to top tier, but I can't see any real reason to use him over shiek besides killing power and liking the dk rap.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't Doc FSmash and DSmash have considerably more kill power than Mario's versions?

Hard to land, of course, since Doc's neutral isn't exactly strong, but I don't think anyone accuses him of not hitting hard enough when he does get that chance.

D-Smash, yes. F-Smash, no.

Tested with Mario as the Dummy in the middle of FD:


D-Smash(Front): 136%
D-Smash(Back): 104%
F-Smash(Normal): 88%
F-Smash(Up-Angled): 82%

Doc's F-Smash Sweetspot is at the palm of his hand.


D-Smash(Front): 153%
D-Smash(Back): 125%
F-Smash(Normal): 98%
F-Smash(Up-Angled): 92%

Mario's F-Smash Sweetspot is at the Fire.

I'd say if you get the back-hit, D-Smash is significant but the difference in F-Smash is very minimal, especially when you take sweetspot mechanics into account.

Doc's KO power advantage is much stronger with Up-B, F-air.

 

[Terotrous]

I get that people think diddy is the best, in melee I thought donkey kong was the best until I was 11 (I swear one of my friends was actually green ranger).And diddy is definitely high tier, but I don't see top tier. I've seen, and even used the d-throw combos, and up air has great kill potential, but diddy just seems lacking in a lot of places compared to shiek. Diddy has more kill potential, but shiek has more combos. Shiek has better recovery, and arguably better projectiles. Diddy has bananas to get grabs, or down tilt, while shiek can f-tilt into grab if they don't jump out of it. I think that diddy has AMAZING combos and is very powerful, and is high to top tier, but I can't see any real reason to use him over shiek besides killing power and liking the dk rap.

You realize that kill power is pretty important, right?

Lack of killing ability is definitely Sheik's biggest weakness, and keeps her from being too absurd. The fact that Diddy is almost as strong at neutral (I do agree that I think Sheik has the edge) but has significantly higher kill power is pretty big.

D-Smash, yes. F-Smash, no.

Interesting, thanks for the data. However, I actually think 88 vs 98 is still somewhat significant. That gives Doc a chance to get a really low percent kill if boosted by rage. The difference in sweetspot positioning may compensate for it, though.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

You realize that kill power is pretty important, right?

Lack of killing ability is definitely Sheik's biggest weakness, and keeps her from being too absurd. The fact that Diddy is almost as strong at neutral (I do agree that I think Sheik has the edge) but has significantly higher kill power is pretty big.



Interesting, thanks for the data. However, I actually think 88 vs 98 is still somewhat significant. That gives Doc a chance to get a really low percent kill if boosted by rage. The difference in sweetspot positioning may compensate for it, though.

That's why shiek isn't running rampant everywhere, she only kills with up air, f smash, sweet spotted up smash, and bouncing fish. But she can rack up damage so fast that it won't take her too long to get the kill, especially using d-throw up air, or f-throw bouncing fish.

 

[Terotrous]

That's why shiek isn't running rampant everywhere, she only kills with up air, f smash, sweet spotted up smash, and bouncing fish. But she can rack up damage so fast that it won't take her too long to get the kill, especially using d-throw up air, or f-throw bouncing fish.

Sheik's combos actually do surprisingly little damage. Sure, she hits you a million times, but each hit does like 4%. Diddy's damage output actually isn't that much lower despite dealing far fewer hits.

Her biggest tool for racking up damage is neutral B. Those needles are just a fantabulous projectile, probably the best overall projectile in the game (though Yoshi's Eggs could give her some competition). They don't do much damage at a time or lead to anything big, but they just add up over time and are great and frustrating the opponent.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Sheik's combos actually do surprisingly little damage. Sure, she hits you a million times, but each hit does like 4%. Diddy's damage output actually isn't that much lower despite dealing far fewer hits.

Her biggest tool for racking up damage is neutral B. Those needles are just a fantabulous projectile, probably the best overall projectile in the game (though Yoshi's Eggs could give her some competition). They don't do much damage at a time or lead to anything big, but they just add up over time and are great and frustrating the opponent.

I think we all know the best projectile is the green missile.

 

[HeroMystic]

Interesting, thanks for the data. However, I actually think 88 vs 98 is still somewhat significant. That gives Doc a chance to get a really low percent kill if boosted by rage. The difference in sweetspot positioning may compensate for it, though.

I would agree if F-Smash didn't take a hard read to land in practice for either character. There's no real setup for it at all, which is why everyone goes "Ooooh!" whenever Mario/Doc lands it.

The go-to kill move for either character is U-Smash, and surprisingly Mario's is just as strong as Doc's.

 

[Terotrous]

I would agree if F-Smash didn't take a hard read to land in practice for either character. There's no real setup for it at all, which is why everyone goes "Ooooh!" whenever Mario/Doc lands it.

I agree, but at least if you get that hard read, the opponent is probably dead. I guess even if it's not vastly more powerful, it still does its job.

Also, make no mistake, I think Mario is definitely the stronger... Mario... overall.

 

[Gunla]

Pretty much the large majority of my Doc KOs come from Fair, Uair, USmash, DSmash and USpecial.

I would agree if F-Smash didn't take a hard read to land in practice for either character. There's no real setup for it at all, which is why everyone goes "Ooooh!" whenever Mario/Doc lands it.

Yeah, it's actually difficult to land it, but it feels so satisfying once you do with either Mario.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pretty much the large majority of my Doc KOs come from Fair, Uair, USmash, DSmash and USpecial.

Yeah, it's actually difficult to land it, but it feels so satisfying once you do with either Mario.

im pretty sure if any of them had a garenteed setup into f smash there would be no qualms with mario being top 7 and doc high tier.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I actually get a lot of kills with Doc Tornado myself.

That move has surprising kill power.

 

[OddCrow]

DISCLAIMER: A rigorous method was not used to achieve these results.

2nd DISCLAIMER: I advise against interpreting these results as a measure of true character potential. Instead, see them as a a reflection of the early meta, or at the very least as a picture of the semi-competitive communities' thoughts on the early meta.

The List -

S-Tier - 1.0-5.0 (5)

Upper

1~ Sheik 2.1

2~ Yoshi 3.1

3~ Diddy Kong 3.3**

Lower

4~ Zero Suit Samus 4.5

5~ Rosalina & Luma 4.9

A-Tier - 5.1-14.0 (6)

Upper

6~ Lucario 5.6

7~ Sonic 7.6*

Middle

8~ Captain Falcon 10.5

9~ Fox 11.7*

10~ Greninja 11.8

Lower

11~ Ness 13.4*

B-Tier - 14.1-21.0 (8)

Upper

12~ Duck Hunt 16.7

13.5~ Wario 18.1**

13.5~ Pit 18.1*

Middle

15~ R.O.B. 19

16~ Villager 19.2

17~ Mario 19.5

Lower

18~ Pac-Man 20.2*

19~ Peach 21

C-Tier - 21.1-29.0 (12)

Upper

20.5~ Pikachu 21.7

20.5~ Little Mac 21.7

22~ Dark Pit 21.8

23~ Bowser 22.3

Middle

24~ King Dedede 24.4*

25~ Robin 25.7

26~ Toon Link 26.2*

27~ Jigglypuff 27*

Lower

28~ Shulk 27.8*

29~ Mega Man 28.1

30~ Bowser Jr 28.5

31~ Marth 28.8*

D-Tier - 29.1-37.0 - (10)

Upper

32~ Luigi 29.6

33~ Link 30.6*

34~ Metaknight 31.6*

35~ Donkey Kong 32.3*

Middle

36~ Lucina 33.8*

37~ Falco 35.2*

Lower

38.5~ Palutena 36.3

38.5~ Mr. Game & Watch 36.3

40~ Dr. Mario 36.4

41~ Samus 37*

F-Tier - 37.1+ - (7)

Upper

42~ Ike 38.8*

43~ Kirby 39.1

44~ Wii Fit Trainer 41

Middle

45~ Pikmin & Olimar 42.1

46~ Charizard 42.4*

47~ Zelda 42.5

Lower

48~ Ganondorf 44.4*

The Method

The method I used to gather/aggregate the data was as follows.

I listed all characters in a column, and tracked down their placement from four different tier lists. (ignoring miis as only 1/2 the lists had them)

These are those lists.

1. Japanese List #1 from 2 Weeks after 3DS release[1] Weight: 2
2. Reddit Community List from 1 Month after 3DS release[2] Weight 2
3. Event Hubs Community list as on Dec. 10th[3] Weight: 3
4. Most Recent Japanese List[4] Weight: 4

The "weight" of each list means how many times that list was counted in the average. For example, Mario received scores of 21, 12, 19 and 23. With no adjustments, this would give us (21x2)+(12x2)+(19x3)+(23x4) / 11 = X where X is his weighted score. (11 is because 2+2+3+4 = 11). X in this case equaling 19.5

Some characters, like Link, recieved scores that were pretty different. When I encountered this, I adjusted the weight of a particular list based on the following "rule".

When most of a characters scores are within a 10 pt range, and they have an outlying score more than 10 in either direction of the highest/lowest, that score loses 1 weight. The exception to this was the most recent japanese list, which I never weighted less than 4 even if it was quite different from the others. Most characters needed no adjustment, about 1/3 needed one list changed, and Wario and Diddy each required 2 weight adjustments.

Link, for example got 37,25,11,40. I adjusted the outlying 11 by "1" leaving us with (37x2)+(25x2)+(11x2)+(40x4) / 10 (10 instead of 11, since the weight was reduced on list 3) which gives us 30.6

The number of * after each characters name means how many lists' weight were changed. No single list was weighted anything other than -1. So if there is "**" it means 2 lists were adjusted. This means that a * indicates a volatile placement.

(this was taken from my reddit post, sorry it's large, but I've been told before not to post things regarding tiers outside of this here thread)

 

[Antonykun]

After more experience with Mii Swordsman and seeing what works with him, I no longer think he is fundamentally flawed using a short+thin or short+wide Mii. Damage on moves are lopsided, but he can surprisingly combo and trap fairly efficiently and kill from a throw combo. There are also a few tricks that help with approaching using sliding dtilts.

Sliding D-Tilts whats that?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DISCLAIMER: A rigorous method was not used to achieve these results.

2nd DISCLAIMER: I advise against interpreting these results as a measure of true character potential. Instead, see them as a a reflection of the early meta, or at the very least as a picture of the semi-competitive communities' thoughts on the early meta.

The List -

S-Tier - 1.0-5.0 (5)

Upper

1~ Sheik 2.1

2~ Yoshi 3.1

3~ Diddy Kong 3.3**

Lower

4~ Zero Suit Samus 4.5

5~ Rosalina & Luma 4.9

A-Tier - 5.1-14.0 (6)

Upper

6~ Lucario 5.6

7~ Sonic 7.6*

Middle

8~ Captain Falcon 10.5

9~ Fox 11.7*

10~ Greninja 11.8

Lower

11~ Ness 13.4*

B-Tier - 14.1-21.0 (8)

Upper

12~ Duck Hunt 16.7

13.5~ Wario 18.1**

13.5~ Pit 18.1*

Middle

15~ R.O.B. 19

16~ Villager 19.2

17~ Mario 19.5

Lower

18~ Pac-Man 20.2*

19~ Peach 21

C-Tier - 21.1-29.0 (12)

Upper

20.5~ Pikachu 21.7

20.5~ Little Mac 21.7

22~ Dark Pit 21.8

23~ Bowser 22.3

Middle

24~ King Dedede 24.4*

25~ Robin 25.7

26~ Toon Link 26.2*

27~ Jigglypuff 27*

Lower

28~ Shulk 27.8*

29~ Mega Man 28.1

30~ Bowser Jr 28.5

31~ Marth 28.8*

D-Tier - 29.1-37.0 - (10)

Upper

32~ Luigi 29.6

33~ Link 30.6*

34~ Metaknight 31.6*

35~ Donkey Kong 32.3*

Middle

36~ Lucina 33.8*

37~ Falco 35.2*

Lower

38.5~ Palutena 36.3

38.5~ Mr. Game & Watch 36.3

40~ Dr. Mario 36.4

41~ Samus 37*

F-Tier - 37.1+ - (7)

Upper

42~ Ike 38.8*

43~ Kirby 39.1

44~ Wii Fit Trainer 41

Middle

45~ Pikmin & Olimar 42.1

46~ Charizard 42.4*

47~ Zelda 42.5

Lower

48~ Ganondorf 44.4*

The Method

The method I used to gather/aggregate the data was as follows.

I listed all characters in a column, and tracked down their placement from four different tier lists. (ignoring miis as only 1/2 the lists had them)

These are those lists.

1. Japanese List #1 from 2 Weeks after 3DS release[1] Weight: 2
2. Reddit Community List from 1 Month after 3DS release[2] Weight 2
3. Event Hubs Community list as on Dec. 10th[3] Weight: 3
4. Most Recent Japanese List[4] Weight: 4

The "weight" of each list means how many times that list was counted in the average. For example, Mario received scores of 21, 12, 19 and 23. With no adjustments, this would give us (21x2)+(12x2)+(19x3)+(23x4) / 11 = X where X is his weighted score. (11 is because 2+2+3+4 = 11). X in this case equaling 19.5

Some characters, like Link, recieved scores that were pretty different. When I encountered this, I adjusted the weight of a particular list based on the following "rule".

When most of a characters scores are within a 10 pt range, and they have an outlying score more than 10 in either direction of the highest/lowest, that score loses 1 weight. The exception to this was the most recent japanese list, which I never weighted less than 4 even if it was quite different from the others. Most characters needed no adjustment, about 1/3 needed one list changed, and Wario and Diddy each required 2 weight adjustments.

Link, for example got 37,25,11,40. I adjusted the outlying 11 by "1" leaving us with (37x2)+(25x2)+(11x2)+(40x4) / 10 (10 instead of 11, since the weight was reduced on list 3) which gives us 30.6

The number of * after each characters name means how many lists' weight were changed. No single list was weighted anything other than -1. So if there is "**" it means 2 lists were adjusted. This means that a * indicates a volatile placement.

(this was taken from my reddit post, sorry it's large, but I've been told before not to post things regarding tiers outside of this here thread)

soo no different from the mant teir lists we discussed and dissagreed with. Fantastic

 

[san.]

Sliding D-Tilts whats that?

Mii swordsman has one of the best slides for this.

 

[Hippieslayer]

When I see Boss using Luigi he ain't looking that bad.. sure his approaching sucks but once he gets in he devastates people, comboes harder than Mario with a lot more damage per hit.. is he really that awful?

 

[TTTTTsd]

When I see Boss using Luigi he ain't looking that bad.. sure his approaching sucks but once he gets in he devastates people, comboes harder than Mario with a lot more damage per hit.. is he really that awful?

No he's not. Getting in with Luigi, while still not easy, is significantly easier IMO thanks to the projectile/camping nerf in general. Luigi's fireballs having what could be called one of the lower projectile recoveries in the game thanks to this (I think).

Getting in takes work but when he's in if he plays right it's basically D-Throw -> your stocks.

 

[OddCrow]

soo no different from the mant teir lists we discussed and dissagreed with. Fantastic

"I advise against interpreting these results as a measure of true character potential. Instead, see them as a a reflection of the early meta, or at the very least as a picture of the semi-competitive communities' thoughts on the early meta."

Interpret how you will, the data exists. It will be interesting and perhaps enjoyable to compare the first "true" tier list (which I expect will be a year or more from now) and all subsequent ones to the early opinions and thoughts of the community.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

"I advise against interpreting these results as a measure of true character potential. Instead, see them as a a reflection of the early meta, or at the very least as a picture of the semi-competitive communities' thoughts on the early meta."

Interpret how you will, the data exists. It will be interesting and perhaps enjoyable to compare the first "true" tier list (which I expect will be a year or more from now) and all subsequent ones to the early opinions and thoughts of the community.

perhaps but as you may have not noticed we really are trying to avoid tier talk @ Shaya it just generally devolves to that characters too low or that character better than this.

 

[Nobie]

I'm curious as to what people think are Lucario's bad matchups. I would think that a Lucario player's worst nightmare would be anyone who can effectively take him out at low percents, especially by straight-up KOing him due to his strong recovery, before his aura has a chance to really kick in and make a difference.

Little Mac: He seems to fit this description best, due to his strong neutral game and his killing power on even his tilts. It might even be that his lack of need or desire to pursue off-stage makes Lucario's recovery something of a non-issue for either character. Last but not least, there's KO punch, which can not only net early KOs but ironically can punish Lucario for hurting Little Mac too much. How good is Lucario's edgeguarding? Is it reliable enough to wipe out Little Mac consistently?

Ganondorf: While all of the heavies hit super hard, Ganondorf is all about having most of his attacks carry extreme knockback. His overall slowness is an issue, but just the fact that he has so many moves capable of taking out Lucario at sub-100% makes me feel like he has the edge in this matchup.

 

[Asdioh]

I get that people think diddy is the best, in melee I thought donkey kong was the best until I was 11 (I swear one of my friends was actually green ranger).And diddy is definitely high tier, but I don't see top tier.

IMO, give a character Diddy's upair and they're at least mid tier. Give them his dthrow->upair and you're looking at high tier. But Diddy not only has some godlike moves (namely Dthrow, Upair, Dtilt, Monkey Flip, Banana, and Fsmash has amazing kill power for such a little guy) but he has literally no bad moves. Arguably his worst move is what, Peanut Popgun? And even that has its uses. On top of that, he has pretty good speed.

Anyway, this thread is too hard to keep up with. Have I missed anything interesting in the past dozen pages or so?

 

[HeavyLobster]

DISCLAIMER: A rigorous method was not used to achieve these results.

2nd DISCLAIMER: I advise against interpreting these results as a measure of true character potential. Instead, see them as a a reflection of the early meta, or at the very least as a picture of the semi-competitive communities' thoughts on the early meta.

The List -

S-Tier - 1.0-5.0 (5)

Upper

1~ Sheik 2.1

2~ Yoshi 3.1

3~ Diddy Kong 3.3**

Lower

4~ Zero Suit Samus 4.5

5~ Rosalina & Luma 4.9

A-Tier - 5.1-14.0 (6)

Upper

6~ Lucario 5.6

7~ Sonic 7.6*

Middle

8~ Captain Falcon 10.5

9~ Fox 11.7*

10~ Greninja 11.8

Lower

11~ Ness 13.4*

B-Tier - 14.1-21.0 (8)

Upper

12~ Duck Hunt 16.7

13.5~ Wario 18.1**

13.5~ Pit 18.1*

Middle

15~ R.O.B. 19

16~ Villager 19.2

17~ Mario 19.5

Lower

18~ Pac-Man 20.2*

19~ Peach 21

C-Tier - 21.1-29.0 (12)

Upper

20.5~ Pikachu 21.7

20.5~ Little Mac 21.7

22~ Dark Pit 21.8

23~ Bowser 22.3

Middle

24~ King Dedede 24.4*

25~ Robin 25.7

26~ Toon Link 26.2*

27~ Jigglypuff 27*

Lower

28~ Shulk 27.8*

29~ Mega Man 28.1

30~ Bowser Jr 28.5

31~ Marth 28.8*

D-Tier - 29.1-37.0 - (10)

Upper

32~ Luigi 29.6

33~ Link 30.6*

34~ Metaknight 31.6*

35~ Donkey Kong 32.3*

Middle

36~ Lucina 33.8*

37~ Falco 35.2*

Lower

38.5~ Palutena 36.3

38.5~ Mr. Game & Watch 36.3

40~ Dr. Mario 36.4

41~ Samus 37*

F-Tier - 37.1+ - (7)

Upper

42~ Ike 38.8*

43~ Kirby 39.1

44~ Wii Fit Trainer 41

Middle

45~ Pikmin & Olimar 42.1

46~ Charizard 42.4*

47~ Zelda 42.5

Lower

48~ Ganondorf 44.4*

The Method

The method I used to gather/aggregate the data was as follows.

I listed all characters in a column, and tracked down their placement from four different tier lists. (ignoring miis as only 1/2 the lists had them)

These are those lists.

1. Japanese List #1 from 2 Weeks after 3DS release[1] Weight: 2
2. Reddit Community List from 1 Month after 3DS release[2] Weight 2
3. Event Hubs Community list as on Dec. 10th[3] Weight: 3
4. Most Recent Japanese List[4] Weight: 4

The "weight" of each list means how many times that list was counted in the average. For example, Mario received scores of 21, 12, 19 and 23. With no adjustments, this would give us (21x2)+(12x2)+(19x3)+(23x4) / 11 = X where X is his weighted score. (11 is because 2+2+3+4 = 11). X in this case equaling 19.5

Some characters, like Link, recieved scores that were pretty different. When I encountered this, I adjusted the weight of a particular list based on the following "rule".

When most of a characters scores are within a 10 pt range, and they have an outlying score more than 10 in either direction of the highest/lowest, that score loses 1 weight. The exception to this was the most recent japanese list, which I never weighted less than 4 even if it was quite different from the others. Most characters needed no adjustment, about 1/3 needed one list changed, and Wario and Diddy each required 2 weight adjustments.

Link, for example got 37,25,11,40. I adjusted the outlying 11 by "1" leaving us with (37x2)+(25x2)+(11x2)+(40x4) / 10 (10 instead of 11, since the weight was reduced on list 3) which gives us 30.6

The number of * after each characters name means how many lists' weight were changed. No single list was weighted anything other than -1. So if there is "**" it means 2 lists were adjusted. This means that a * indicates a volatile placement.

(this was taken from my reddit post, sorry it's large, but I've been told before not to post things regarding tiers outside of this here thread)

*Grumble, grumble*Ganondorf's not the worst character in the game, Charizard's being slept on*grumble, grumble*

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So, how good is Doc's Nair Offstage? i assume it would be a good gimp move since the strong sourspot is easy to land, but i haven't seen much of Doc to see how versatile his Nair is.

 

[HeroMystic]

So, how good is Doc's Nair Offstage? i assume it would be a good gimp move since the strong sourspot is easy to land, but i haven't seen much of Doc to see how versatile his Nair is.

Without customs, Doc doesn't have the ability to use sourspot N-air effectively. B-air is much better to use for him.

 

[DavemanCozy]

soo no different from the mant teir lists we discussed and dissagreed with. Fantastic

Hey, it's an average of all tier lists. Honestly, that's good data we got there. Even though there are parts there that I disagree with, it's actually the one I've agreed with the most

 

[ama99]

What's the consensus on Link here? I haven't heard much about him. But he feels much faster and more mobile than previous iterations of Link, and his new Dash Attack is great. Also his recovery is actually decent now, not like Little Mac bad anymore. His bombs are also even better than before.

Personally, I think Link is a high mid or even high, he's no Diddy Kong, but he can definitely hold his own against the rest of the roster. I've been doing really good with Link against Megaman and Wario (both characters I secondary).

With customs, Link is just amazing. If you gimp them with the Power Bow they are pretty guaranteed dead. The standard no gale boomerang is way better than the gale boomerang. And the meteor bombs are just nuts,

Also? What do you guys think of Wario in this game? I know his Air Mobility and Bike got nerfed but he still feels viable. Maybe a Low-Mid?

 

[Jaxas]

I'm curious as to what people think are Lucario's bad matchups. I would think that a Lucario player's worst nightmare would be anyone who can effectively take him out at low percents, especially by straight-up KOing him due to his strong recovery, before his aura has a chance to really kick in and make a difference.

Little Mac: He seems to fit this description best, due to his strong neutral game and his killing power on even his tilts. It might even be that his lack of need or desire to pursue off-stage makes Lucario's recovery something of a non-issue for either character. Last but not least, there's KO punch, which can not only net early KOs but ironically can punish Lucario for hurting Little Mac too much. How good is Lucario's edgeguarding? Is it reliable enough to wipe out Little Mac consistently?

Ganondorf: While all of the heavies hit super hard, Ganondorf is all about having most of his attacks carry extreme knockback. His overall slowness is an issue, but just the fact that he has so many moves capable of taking out Lucario at sub-100% makes me feel like he has the edge in this matchup.

As someone who played a bunch of Lucario and then dropped him, his main weaknesses are:
- Characters who kill early (like Ganon, as you said)
- Characters who have good disjoints (Marth, Ike, Lucina, Shulk, etc)
- Characters who have counters (Same as above; basically it takes your strength at high percents and kills you with it, but amplified)

So basically, screw Marth.

Really though, Lucario has absolutely abysmal range. Force Palm and Aura Sphere can mitigate that at high percents, but those are only 2 moves.

Speaking of which, Villager sucks to fight as well because he has solid walls, better range than Lucario on most everything, and more importantly he can pocket your Aura Spheres and Force Palm Flames.

 

[DavemanCozy]

What's the consensus on Link here? I haven't heard much about him. But he feels much faster and more mobile than previous iterations of Link, and his new Dash Attack is great. Also his recovery is actually decent now, not like Little Mac bad anymore. His bombs are also even better than before.

Personally, I think Link is a high mid or even high, he's no Diddy Kong, but he can definitely hold his own against the rest of the roster. I've been doing really good with Link against Megaman and Wario (both characters I secondary).

Yeah, I think Link wrecks Mega Man. A perma-projectile-shield in front of him is really, really good. (f*** it, I read and I was educated) I agree with Link being Mid, maybe at the lower end of high (he's still slow compared to the rest of the cast, just not molasses slow like he used to be).

Also? What do you guys think of Wario in this game? I know his Air Mobility and Bike got nerfed but he still feels viable. Maybe a Low-Mid?

Mid at worst. His mobility in the air is still pretty good, his heavy weight makes him pretty hard to KO as well. I think he's still really good.

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, I think Link wrecks Mega Man. A perma-projectile-shield in front of him is really, really good. I agree with Link being Mid, maybe at the lower end of high (he's still slow compared to the rest of the cast, just not molasses slow like he used to be).

Please explain what you do with that and how that beats Mega Man. If Link wants to just stand and drink lemonade, Mega Man is more than content to provide the lemons and mix in some metal blades that pierce Link's shield. He can walk and drink if that's what he prefers, but he'll be approaching at Ganondorf speeds with his Hyrule Shield getting hit.

 

[meleebrawler]

Please explain what you do with that and how that beats Mega Man. If Link wants to just stand and drink lemonade, Mega Man is more than content to provide the lemons and mix in some metal blades that pierce Link's shield. He can walk and drink if that's what he prefers, but he'll be approaching at Ganondorf speeds with his Hyrule Shield getting hit.

And Megaman's air mobility puts Link's to shame.
The shield can only punish lemons if Rock is walking towards
you... oh wait, he can just jump back if he sees his lemons blocked.

Link has an advantage at longer range since his projectiles move faster.
Once Rock is past that, though, he gains a distinct advantage
at mid-range where he can stay out of reach of Link's sword while
constantly pressuring him. And reckless dash attacks from Link
are a good way for him to eat a Mega Upper at Rock's optimal
distance.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The more i use samus the more i feel she better than what people make her out to be.

but ill be honest it was looking grim cuz i was not doing to well with her. But that because i had the notion to always hold on to charge shot. i never was using it for general damage just the kill. Once i got out of that habit (and learned proper zair game) i feel she she has some very even match ups with top tiers. specifically rosa,shiek, and sonic. expecially sonic since even the weakest charge shot beats spin dash lol.

retreating zairs are the most seemingly agrivating spacing move. well in generall. but zair are great overall so i dont need to get into that. its just works really well with the metroid cast.

 

[Locke 06]

Link has an advantage at longer range since his projectiles move faster.

Nope. Lemons cancel out all default projectiles except the fully charged bow & bombs (I know nothing about Link's customs and their priority in relation to the lemons).

Closing the distance between long range and mid-range is simply walking AAA. If Link has enough time to charge his bow, duck. I don't know the rule for how long that stalemate can go... (is there a rule?) but I've sat in that position for a good 15-20 seconds on For Glory in multiple matches.

The more i use samus the more i feel she better than what people make her out to be.

but ill be honest it was looking grim cuz i was not doing to well with her. But that because i had the notion to always hold on to charge shot. i never was using it for general damage just the kill. Once i got out of that habit (and learned proper zair game) i feel she she has some very even match ups with top tiers. specifically rosa,shiek, and sonic. expecially sonic since even the weakest charge shot beats spin dash lol.

retreating zairs are the most seemingly agrivating spacing move. well in generall. but zair are great overall so i dont need to get into that. its just works really well with the metroid cast.

Samus' game is now completely revolved around the charge shot IMO. I've started to mess around with her and she's got good combo potential and great mind games with the shot. There's a reason why they didn't give her a serviceable jab combo. She's got tools. Up-B OOS and Z-air are fantastic.

Also, she has DK's shield breaking game with super missiles and charge shot (also screw attack eats shields alive if you can catch someone shielding it). She's in the running for my 3rd/4th character with Marth, but I haven't quite decided yet.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Everybody feels nowadays that they have even matchups with Rosa and Sheik.
Precisely because her kill potential is late. A general prejudice that being quick means people won't hit you, or that you'll hit them first and then juggle them. How many 3 stocks 0% damage taken do you see?
Characters of all sizes *do* get hits, and when they do its of a lot more reward then Sheik. Why do you think she combo's? Because her individual hits are poor. Brawl wasn't giving enough reward to other sizes, Smash 4 is giving more reward to various characters, the only question is if they're getting enough for their difficulties. Sheik isn't getting much.

Until Sheiks fully execute that agility and flow to shut you down, sure everyone will feel they can start to box with her, because she isn't consistently outpacing their reward with her own. That is relative to her and their KO requirements. In a game with 51 characters a Sheik player isn't going to know the timings on every character at this time, neither does anyone else but Sheik is meta, so you will learn her timings often before the player learns your characters.


I bet Samus doesn't have no even match-up with Sheik.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe 1.04 sheiks reward has honestly become so ass, that she is getting them in KO percents too late for her own good.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Nope. Lemons cancel out all default projectiles except the fully charged bow & bombs (I know nothing about Link's customs and their priority in relation to the lemons).

Closing the distance between long range and mid-range is simply walking AAA. If Link has enough time to charge his bow, duck. I don't know the rule for how long that stalemate can go... (is there a rule?) but I've sat in that position for a good 15-20 seconds on For Glory in multiple matches.

if link has a decent chance at beating megaman its definitly not because of shield lol.

link should just do what he does well and throw out his wall of hit boxes against mega man and look for an opening.


edit* @ ChronoPenguin yeah i get that. i was just kinda basing off of semi charged shot eating shieks needles xd but i definitly dont think its an even MU at least with shiek. but i guess there aint no polarizing MU's that are imposible to win. yet...

 

[Locke 06]

if link has a decent chance at beating megaman its definitly not because of shield lol.

link should just do what he does well and throw out his wall of hit boxes against mega man and look for an opening.

Link's wall of hitboxes loses to Mega Man's wall of hitboxes... That's the issue in the matchup. Link turns into a lesser Marth with bombs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Link's wall of hitboxes loses to Mega Man's wall of hitboxes... That's the issue in the matchup. Link turns into a lesser Marth with bombs.

i never said he would win the projectile game. its more on the player insentive to look for the opening xd. i just feel instead of donig somthing rediculous link better off using what he good at.
i overall feel link is at a disadvantage.

 

[Raziek]

People continue to sleep on Robin.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nope. Lemons cancel out all default projectiles except the fully charged bow & bombs (I know nothing about Link's customs and their priority in relation to the lemons).

Closing the distance between long range and mid-range is simply walking AAA. If Link has enough time to charge his bow, duck. I don't know the rule for how long that stalemate can go... (is there a rule?) but I've sat in that position for a good 15-20 seconds on For Glory in multiple matches.

You got me there about shooting projectiles with lemons.
There's also the piercing Leaf Shield for particulary sloppy projectile use...

I don't think there's a rule against projectile camping in general.
What gets banned are techniques that make a character nigh impossible
to hit and does nothing to help win a match other than running out the clock.
Projectile camping at least causes damage to your opponent.

People tried to impose edge-grab limits in Brawl to due the use of planking (especially by-who else?-Meta Knight).

 

[HeroMystic]

The more i use samus the more i feel she better than what people make her out to be.

I've been in the lab with Samus(I want her as my secondary), and I'm gonna have to agree. However, I also have to say she's a very awkward character. Her moveset, at first, feels unintuitive.

Her specials all deal good damage, especially Super Missles, and obviously, they're good for zoning. However, her moveset shines the best when she has her opponent at the corner stage.

Morph Ball Bombs keeps the ledge plastered with traps, homing missiles and Z-air will push the oppoenent back they jump from the ledge, and Charged shot will be ready to punish any rolls. Off-stage is even better, because Samus' aerials (particularly B-air) are really strong. B-air, N-air, and F-Smash are the reasons why I don't worry about keeping the charged shot for kills.

Her main weakness is actually when her opponent has equal stage control (i.e, the neutral game), because Samus' neutral is pretty poor. Pound for Pound, Samus is a character that demands stage control. She keeps you busy with projectiles, then dash attacks or grabs you, puts you in the air, force you towards the ledge, and keeps you there until you're dead.

 

[Deleted member]

As a Lucario secondary, I don't think he is as great as others say he is, but he still is a good character. The main problem he has is his decent at best neutral game, causing him to take on percent quickly and be in a disadvantageous position. Now one might just say Aura to KO them now, but it isn't that simple. Lucario's kill options besides gimps and quite a few moves when he is at absurdly high percents and his opponent is also not lacking in that department are limited to punishable moves with noticeable startup like his Smashes, the range limited grab of Force Palm, Bair, and a fully charged Aura Sphere. Sure he can kill early, but its hard to get in with a character as slow as Lucario. He does have great damage at higher percents and if he can get air dodge punishes or reads he can KO, but the problem is getting those fantastic plays.