Character Competitive Impressions

[X3I]

But... He doesn't have poor kill options at all ! Why is everyone saying that ?

All his smashes kill at 90-110 and are easily landable. You can combo into Dsmash, zone with Fsmash, punish moves with Usmash, Judgement instant-kill easily some characters (Fox <3), Bucket is good in a lot of match-ups, and...

Edgeguard, my friend ! He is the best in the game for that. Chief, Key, Box, Turtle, Fish... Dtilt and Uair on some characters, Up B to recover from everywhere and also as a nice kill option !

The advice I give to every G&W is to improve their edgeguarding game and their understanding of the Usmash. This move seriously is broken, stop underestimating it and use it as a counter.

is good.

 

[xgina]

All his smashes kill at 90-110 and are easily landable. You can combo into Dsmash,

how? i'm out of the loop in terms of G&W setups aside from what i've found in my own time playing but i've personally never been able to consistently combo a move into dsmash. this would be legitimately helpful.

also, i've noticed you defending G&W throughout the thread - do you have any videos of you showing off how you play him in smash 4? i've barely seen any mid-level yet alone high-level G&W play.

 

[Psyant]

My favourite thing about G&W is that you get a full bucket from Palutena using autoreticle even once. Fun MU.

 

[X3I]

My main setup is SHFF Nair > Dsmash. It works well, on almost every % and characters.

I can't record my battles unfortunately. So I can't show you by myself how I play. I know a friend of mine can... So, we will see.

It would be a pleasure !

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You should probably tell @ SamuraiPanda to stop telling people this is where you should post tier list.

Eh I only do it once in awhile when I lock threads. I have a tendency to like to redirect conversation to other places. I really should just tell people not to post their own tier lists because there is such little value to them.

 

[Luco]

I'm probably of the hipster league that enjoys seeing character faces in otherwise massive walls of texts and thus I enjoy seeing tier lists just based on the fact that they're something different from the norm - errr... but they can cause some random discussion.

To be totally honest I love it the most when tier lists provoke discussion more than just 'this character is way too low'; I enjoy it when a tier list sparks discussion on a particular character's potential in the meta game and people talk about a few characters from that tier list in this way.

Or something. That's just me. =P

 

[Gunla]

Here's an interesting topic...

When do you think one should use as opposed to ?

Late, but Mario is pretty much superior, having much more speed, agility, and recovery. FLUDD also is something to take note; while I prefer the Dr. Tornado for it's uses, FLUDD has it's own uses in pushing opponents.

However, that's not going to stop me from playing exclusively .

 

[PK Gaming]

Fox can jab 1 -> jab 2 -> Usmash Wario for the kill without trouble.

I see, I didn't know

What are the conditions for landing this? Is it character specific? What's the % range?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, it's kinda weird and unclear against which characters it works. Some characters can escape it, some characters can't do anything about the usmash and some can get in a trade with a nair or another very fast aerial. There's no one who could figure out the frame data though. It's mainly about the frame advantage of Jab 2 on hit.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ah, nvm this post

 

[Goodstyle_4]

U-smash can be combo'd into through Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> U-smash.

... No it can't. That's not an actual combo if you can get out of it. A combo is something that is guaranteed, that just sounds like something that works and players who don't block/Dodge/or DI in time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Eh, I'm like 99% sure that it can combo on certain characters that have the right weight, fall speed and percent. While it doesn't combo most characters it's definitely inescapable for a few and there's another few characters who can get in a trade at best. But without frame data it's impossible to say anything for sure.

 

[Conda]

My main setup is SHFF Nair > Dsmash. It works well, on almost every % and characters.

I can't record my battles unfortunately. So I can't show you by myself how I play. I know a friend of mine can... So, we will see.

It would be a pleasure !

Add me : CCOBBS
I host competitive 1v1 rooms in With Friends mode to record and commentate while 2 players fight, we'd all love to see some game and watch play.

 

[GreenFlame]

What's the competitive opinion of people here about Luigi and Bowser Jr? Where would you put them on the tier list?

 

[X3I]

Add me : CCOBBS
I host competitive 1v1 rooms in With Friends mode to record and commentate while 2 players fight, we'd all love to see some game and watch play.

I'm French... It will be laggy, right ?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Late, but Mario is pretty much superior, having much more speed, agility, and recovery. FLUDD also is something to take note; while I prefer the Dr. Tornado for it's uses, FLUDD has it's own uses in pushing opponents.

However, that's not going to stop me from playing exclusively .

I HONESTLY think if Doc had like, a running speed comparable to Luigi (slightly slower obviously) he'd be like, way better. Less endlag on Doc Nado would be cool too.

I think Doc's mobility is OVERLY low. His air mobility should be limited to inhibit that Bair obviously but his grounded speed should not be as gimped as it is. A better run speed would give him the ability to approach with his unique projectile and at least throw in a mixup.

When Doc is in he's arguably more threatening than Mario is, higher damage and much greater kill potential, but getting in is way too hard.

Still using him though.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Edit: Never mind!

 

[Chuva]

I must be the only one that don't mind Doc's running speed. With the exception of some matchups, I'm usually the one forcing people to come at me with megavitamins, cape and Nairs. Once Doc is in, his mixups and strings are just as nasty as Mario's, except that more rewarding.

All I want is less end lag on Tornado, or anything that makes his recovery slightly better.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The problem is a lot of characters don't really have to come in vs. Megavitamins. I mean that's a matter of patience. Dr. Mario is certainly incredibly playable but I feel like he can get outcamped pretty easily.

Anybody he can camp out is usually a pretty decent MU for him all things considered. But I feel like the run speed would aid his on-stage greatly and it's something he kind of needs to keep up with like, a good chunk of the roster.

The big problem is he lacks most of the traits to make up for his lower range. A run speed close to Luigi's would not invalidate Mario at all given Mario's dair and completely separate gameplan, it would just let Doc camp out the MUs he can validly camp, and at least sway the other ones not in his favor, but rather more possible and efficient. Wouldn't make him godlike it would just make his bad MUs a bit less bad. If Luigi's D-Throw can be the way it is with his running speed I can't see why Doc can't hit the gym. Like, ****, he's even outrun by ****ing D3. At least D3 has disjoint.

 

[DavemanCozy]

... No it can't. That's not an actual combo if you can get out of it. A combo is something that is guaranteed, that just sounds like something that works and players who don't block/Dodge/or DI in time.

I never said it was a "true" combo. If you actually want to follow the definition of what a combo is, I'll just specify what I mean when I say "combo" next time.

You can DI out of it you play a floaty and are at a grossly high %, but otherwise jab 2 has barely any knockback, you're going to get U-smashed if you try to escape via DI'ing away. The proper response is to DI downwards so you make it back to the ground faster to shield in time. Otherwise, you can't shield it in time either unless you play a fast-faller, since jab 2 pops the opponent up slightly after 70%. The only option that works with every character is an air-dodge close to the ground, but that's risky because you'll suffer lag and Fox could just buffer the U-smash.

You're right in that it's not a true combo though. It's not a "you're 100% trapped" situation (I find there are very few situations like that in this game). It's hella hard to get out of though, you need to have fast reflexes.

The better options that you didn't list are to N-air Fox (if you play a character with a fast N-air) or use a quick option (like Mario's Up-B). In this case, Fox's only response is to shield, but he'll have to know that his opponent is trying to escape.

 

[Conda]

I'm French... It will be laggy, right ?

Sadly yeah. Once replay sharing is a thing, contact me for sure,

 

[Chuva]

Megavitamins doesn't force people to come at you, but I feel it gives me the momentum I need to slowly reach people and gain stage control to the point where my opponent usually feels like it's time to act. I think aside from Gunner, Villager and maybe Pac-man, other zoners are significantly doable. Let us not forget his cape.

The true zoners that give Doc trouble imo are swordmen disjoint zoners (Shulk, Marcina), which I believe is just a defining aspect of both characters design (Mario archetype losing to swordman archetype) so no complaining from me.

With that said, I wouldn't mind a runnning speed buff, I'd just rather have a buff to his recovery (as in a better Tornado).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Better Tornado would help him a lot! The endlag is the major issue I have with it. Also you can laugh but I think Doc handles Marth better than Mario does only by virtue of having a more annoying projectile and Marth not having the old Fair, although I suppose it's really stage dependent. It's not a massive improvement, still not even close to Doc's favor, but it's better than Mario vs. Marth if you ask me.

The reason I think Doc can't outcamp other zoners even with Cape is simply cause Megavitamins are pretty laggy and most other zoners/campers have like 2-3 projectiles minimum usually. They also happen to have better movement speeds than him.

I just can't help but feel like the way Megavitamin's trajectory is lends itself to unique offensive angles and seeing him run so slow and not being able to utilize that is like lost potential. They're bouncier than ever before, they look like they should be thrown out for offensive coverage.

 

[NairWizard]

The problem with saying that a character is good "once he gets in" is that against characters who will actually let you in consistently, being in is as tough as being out. Ness wants you to come in so he can grab you and do 34% a few times to b-throw. Luigi wants you to come in so he can do Luigi stuff and set you at 9 million %. Even Pikachu wants you to come in so he can get you offstage and rack up edgeguarding damage. When Dr. Mario gets in against these characters, he's probably doing worse than when he just stays away, since everyone is at least marginally better when "in" than when out (even characters like Villager and Fox) because they trade safety for damage. Sword characters and DK/Dedede are exceptions because when they're in, they're actually a couple of character lengths or so away from you, so you have to go even further in to be truly in.

That's probably why Dr. Mario could use some buffs, though. Customs make him pretty decent.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Which is exactly why I think Doc should, at the very least, not struggle on both accords lol. If megavitamins are any indicator if he could run behind them and reliably use them for approach that would be like, huge. I think he has a lot of Mario's good strings and up close stuff with the added extra damage and a better D-Throw against heavies at low %s but the low movement speed really hampers optimal usage of these traits.

Running slower than D3 with less than half the range is like, why : (

But that's just me. He's good with customs though!

 

[HeroMystic]

It's funny because Doc's only real issue is mobility, and that's a defining difference between Mario and Doc(Speed vs Power), so while Mario would love more damage per hit, that's what Doc has. And Doc would love more speed but that's Mario's thing.

It's very, very difficult to balance when looked at from that perspective.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What do you need power for when you have High Pressure Fludd.

We can talk custom Doc, but then there is Custom Mario, and High pressure Fludd > Doc and his mother.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It's funny because Doc's only real issue is mobility, and that's a defining difference between Mario and Doc(Speed vs Power), so while Mario would love more damage per hit, that's what Doc has. And Doc would love more speed but that's Mario's thing.

It's very, very difficult to balance when looked at from that perspective.

how about give them both more speed and more powa?
that way doc can get in and mario can acctualy do somthin whenhe gets in

 

[TTTTTsd]

What do you need power for when you have High Pressure Fludd.

We can talk custom Doc, but then there is Custom Mario, and High pressure Fludd > Doc and his mother.

I don't think High Pressure FLUDD is as funny or effective as Doc's Bair really far offstage with his recovery Down-B custom :3

Also I think Doc's run speed should be altered but NOT his air speed nor his recovery too drastically. Honestly I'd prefer he always run slower than Mario but the current run speed is way too...bad. Mario would still have the definite speed edge over him, moreso in the air.

Mario still has stuff like Crossup Dair, FLUDD for better gimps, etc.

 

[Ffamran]

Since I didn't play as the Doc much in Melee, was he that significantly slower than Mario?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't think High Pressure FLUDD is as funny or effective as Doc's Bair really far offstage with his recovery Down-B custom :3

Also I think Doc's run speed should be altered but NOT his air speed nor his recovery too drastically. Honestly I'd prefer he always run slower than Mario but the current run speed is way too...bad. Mario would still have the definite speed edge over him, moreso in the air.

Mario still has stuff like Crossup Dair, FLUDD for better gimps, etc.

bruh have you not seen high power fludd killing people from a back throw to fludd at 60%! It is much more effective than bair.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Since I didn't play as the Doc much in Melee, was he that significantly slower than Mario?

He wasn't at all slower besides Jab, actually.
Matter of fact his air speed is SLIGHTLY HIGHER than Mario's in Melee. This game they actually made him how he was intended but I think they went just a smidge overboard with the running. Oh well =P

 

[A2ZOMG]

The main thing Mario gets over Doc with customs is superior Gust Cape, and he's slightly better at chasing high recoveries with aerials and FLUDD. But the real problem edgeguarding for both Mario and Doc is having relatively poor options for low recoveries, which is especially problematic if you take Fast Fireballs/Pills for neutral.

Doc does this significantly better than Mario with custom Tornado enabling much deeper low recovery chases than Mario...not to mention his B-air is GROSS.

Since I didn't play as the Doc much in Melee, was he that significantly slower than Mario?

Nope. Frame data and mechanics wise, these characters were very literally clones, minus Jab combo being faster on Mario, and Mario having like 2 frames less landing lag on aerials.

What put Doc ahead of Mario was mostly doing a better job instakilling Space Animals off a grab with chaingrab -> D-smash.

 

[TTTTTsd]

But yeah, I think Doc's low run speed is what is really holding him back. My impression of him so far is he's definitely usable and probably applicable (definitely moreso in customs legal environments for sure) but I wouldn't mind some uh, improvements.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

But yeah, I think Doc's low run speed is what is really holding him back. My impression of him so far is he's definitely usable and probably applicable (definitely moreso in customs legal environments for sure) but I wouldn't mind some uh, improvements.

doc is solid at high level play the come up tourny was proof.

 

[mimgrim]

Melee Doc had a bit more landing lag to his aerials, which is what makes him feel slower in Melee.

 

[HeroMystic]

how about give them both more speed and more powa?
that way doc can get in and mario can acctualy do somthin whenhe gets in

Because ultimately, Mario would come out better if that was done. It would make Doc much better, but the only thing Mario is missing from his moveset is damage-per-hit and more KO options (though if less start-up was on Mario's F-Smash, he'd be set for life.)

I'm gonna be more indepth here and show what moves Doc have that does more damage than Mario's.

Dash Attack: +1%
U-tilt: +2%
F-Smash: +2%
D-Smash: +1%
F-air: +1%
B-air: +2.5%
B-throw: +1%

I'd say out of all of them, U-tilt and B-air are the most significant, and everything else is just "flavor". The main problem with Doc's "advantage" is he can't do two aerials out of a short hop, so for every B-air Doc uses, Mario can do 2 B-airs (or 2 U-airs) and deal more overall damage. U-tilt deals more damage but shares the same problems as Mario's U-tilt, so the difference is minimal.

Mario's Up-B is also more versatile than Doc's while still being a surprisingly strong kill move.

Doc's only real advantage over Mario is Dr. Tornado and D-air being very strong defense tools (especially Dr. Tornado), and his Pills being better than fireballs.

 

[Terotrous]

I'd say out of all of them, U-tilt and B-air are the most significant, and everything else is just "flavor". The main problem with Doc's "advantage" is he can't do two aerials out of a short hop, so for every B-air Doc uses, Mario can do 2 B-airs (or 2 U-airs) and deal more overall damage. U-tilt deals more damage but shares the same problems as Mario's U-tilt, so the difference is minimal.

Don't Doc FSmash and DSmash have considerably more kill power than Mario's versions?

Hard to land, of course, since Doc's neutral isn't exactly strong, but I don't think anyone accuses him of not hitting hard enough when he does get that chance.

 

[S_B]

The main selling points for Bowser is that he's extremely fast with amazing OoS options with grab (massive range) and Fortress. He also lives forever, his smash attacks/down b (aside from fsmash) are fast and kill quite early and he's the heaviest character in the game so he benefits hugely from the Rage mechanic. I can elaborate more if you want, but he's a solid upper mid/high tier character imo

I love Bowser, but two things I feel will harm him in the long run around going to be the redundancy of two of his moves...

I wish he had something different for down+B in the air, because I feel it overlaps with down+A which is just generally a superior move. Neither move, however, is particularly good because you can usually see them both coming a mile away and they're incredibly punishable. Down+B on the ground, however, can be excellent if used at the right time.

The worse redundancy is with grounded up+B vs. Dsmash.

Grounded up+B (fortress) is instantaneous (even out of shield), deals around 11%, kills at ~150% and can slide back and forth. You can even use it as an approach on the ground and it'll clank with a lot of attacks.

Dsmash is the exact same hitbox size (or damn close to it), deals around 16% damage, kills at ~120%, can't move and has a startup time.

The one point which folks on the Bowser board agree upon is that Dsmash needs a buff of some kind, either an increase in damage to make it worth landing, an increase in knockback so it kills at lower percentages or doing something unique like deflecting projectiles while Bowser is spinning.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Is Doc's Nair good offstage? I would assume so, but I haven't seen enough Doc to know how versatile his Nair is.