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Because Ike has a much better recovery, better safer range, is harder to knock off the stage, can combo into kill moves at kill percents (like Mac), can safely gimp people on or off stage, has a usable air/combo game, and kills at comparable or better percents outside of KO Punch (Which Fsmash still competes with).
Someone needs to d-throw to up-air, up-air him out of here!Reported. Enjoy your ban.
You should probably tell @SamuraiPanda to stop telling people this is where you should post tier list.
In Brawl many characters had Bair as their BnB move.
If Ike's bair isn't early to mid kill while those are, they must be shooting meteorites out of them or something.
I like how these characters are all girls... except Little Mac. ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US SOMETHING MENOSo, since I'm apparently "the least productive and least supportive" poster on here, I thought I'd flesh out some impressions on a few of the characters I play. This is all pre-custom legalization.
On:
Playing because of KO Punch.
I wanted to start with Mac because he's a standard defining character. There is so much power here, I'm curios: if you're not playing a character without a projectile, why not play Mac? Either your opponent makes you too uncomfortable recovering (fair enough), or Mac is clearly the most rewarding choice. He's so overwhelming, I consider him the line that will define tournament viable characters and players.
On:
Playing her because of Mechakoopa.
Mechakoopa is just such an interesting item. Something that threatens and walks around independently on its own is a really unique character trait, and something no one else in the cast has. Kart gives the character a lot of needed mobility and speed options. Her options in the air and floor are all really great IMHO. I know some people were complaining about them, but I like all the range, speed, and disjoint on the fork and bowling ball attacks.
She's bad though. There's a large weakness here to any projectile Kart can't plow through. Which makes her slow. And if you wanted to play a character that's slowed by projectiles, you'll have more incentive to Little Mac for a KO Punch, or Marth for a disjoint, or Bowser Senior for the weight and power. She's interesting and tricky, but not versatile and strong versus all of the cast like a top tier would be.
On:
Playing her because of Fair.
The sword archetype has been described as harmful to the game. Not having to risk your body when placing attacks is a huge advantage, which is why these characters can be so powerful. They've been individually balanced for it though, and in Marth/Lucina's case with a lack of projectile and a light weight. Abusing their sword is what makes these characters so good versus characters that do have to stick their necks out - I would choose Lucina versus Mario, Falcon, Charizard, etc. If you're confident enough in being able to swat these characters out over and over. The edguarding power of the sword is also really overwhelming.
I don't know if you should choose this character against spammers though. The runspeed is a good tool, and so is the reward on hit, so Lucina can technically deal with campers. I would switch to a character with a shine of some kind though (no need to struggle). Also, if you're looking for a character with range, Diddy, Rosalina, Lucario, all offer something comparable - with a lot of added bonuses. And of course Marth. You use Lucina purely for flavor.
On:
Playing her because of Reflector.
Reflector almost totally negates camping strategies, and almost entire characters on its own, which is why Palutena makes for such a good game 1 blind pick character - no unexpected jank. Fox owns the same thing, along with the great mobility (both with great run speed and jumps). Palutena becomes a worthwhile pick on her own for a few enticing reasons:
1) exceptional grab reward with dthrow combos
2) exceptional juggle ability with long lasting aerials uair and nair
3) invincible clashes with bair and dash attack
Along with counter, the dair spike, and Auto-Reticule, she can pepper hits and kills just about everywhere. Very quality character, but with no completely overwhelming trait - which is why I think people would gravitate towards something more obviously broken like Lucario, or Sonic or whatever.
Also: notably crazy with customs. Waiting for that day to come. xD
On:
Playing her because of Float.
Float is and will always be ridiculous. Ignoring gravity on command is whack, and being able to abuse it to throw out the whack aerials on whatever level you want is also whack. She's very scary when allowed to enter any kind of inner bubble, and worse she's not incapable of killing. She's slow as hell though, which weakens her enough that characters like Samus could go at least even with her. She's a slow skipping behemoth, but she'll probably always have problems with the ninja characters and Sonic and anyone who can run circles around her.
On:
Playing her because of everything.
There's so much range on this character which is why she's been obviously such a good pick. Gravitational Pull covers a huge weakness she would have otherwise, and Luma by itself eats so many peppered projectiles Rosalina doesn't suffer from some common problems other characters crawl through mud to get through. Her air mobility is horrid though, and having to fall with her is a terrible ordeal. Coupled with her lightweight, I feel like she can dominate, but at the same time lose matches to rogue smash attacks.
Nitpicking though. Her range is going to keep her in top five probably forever.
On:
Playing her because of Pocket and Tree and Lloyd.
In the right matchup, Pocket is the best move in the game. Stealing fully charged anything is Christmas. Also makes the Villiger ditto the best matchup in the whole game. Tree turns characters with bad recoveries into Little Macs. LLoyd is constantly needing to be addressed. Villager, like Little Mac, I think is a very polarizing character. Some of the cast just cannot consistently deal.
I would consider her in the top percentile.
On:
Playing her because of Sun Salutation and mobility.
What sucks about Wii Fit Trainer is her total lack of disjoint. This is remedied with probably the best spammy projectile in the game. And paired with the run speed, I'm voting Wii Fit for best camper. But there's a big weakness here to short characters, and anyone with a disjoint. She does have a bunch of little things though:
1) her ball stall in the air
2) Deep Breathing giving opponents incentive to approach
3) her ankle jab that hits behind her (1000% more important than the burying thing)
4) a plethora of spikes
5) Snake's bair
A bunch of cute things. I might call her the Melee Mewtwo of this game, but honestly... honestly... I think she just needs an abusive player to pick her up. Someone who does not at all worry about approaching, is constantly charging and healing, and only sticks Wii Fits limbs out when it rewards her with one of her stage-carrying combos. No one really wants to play like that, but maybe one day.
X3I
Shaya wrote up a big oil' kinda goofy post about Game & Watch's merits after I wrote a post about how he's not as bad as people say he is. I'll link it for you if you can't find it (I linked it on the Game & Watch boards too). Most of it boils down to "UAir and FTilt are amazing). Oh, to answer your about Sheik, Shaya, yes, FTilt beats almost everything she has, we can duck under needles, and we can absorb the explosions from flash grenades and HER UP-B (this just recently came to my attention and it is hilarious).
his recovery is just bad compared to outright terrible
if we are aguing with results witch we should many characters should be placed over others.
This. Come on... Pls. I like advocating for characters that are competitively unpopular, but an hour of experience... You probably should've just left that sentence out and it would've strengthened your argument.
welp i have been playing diddy for a few minutes and i can advocate hes really strong!
Tier Talk AND Basing your "Tiers" entirely off one player winning month 2 tournaments. Plz.
Well, I had a horribly laggy match with - it's been a while so, I don't remember clearly who - a Jigglypuff once that forever haunted me. It took a Bair at 177% to kill a Jigglypuff. 177%. EVERYTHING ELSE was like poking Jigglypuff with a candy cane. I even tried bouncing the thing like a basketball with a Dair in hopes it would kill. Nope, nothing. I lost that match.
It was likely as strong as or weaker than her bair pre-patch. The 13->14% change decreased kill % by 10 at least, coupled with smaller blastzones outside of BF/Kongo Jungle and the tweaks to VI. It's comparable to any other horizontal 14% attack. Not bad for a 7 frame move with good range and disjoint. Jigglypuff's is frame 12, sluggish in comparison.
B-but... It was such a late kill and everything... EVERYTHING I did over and over... and over was for nothing. The lag... The. Lag.
vs ? 
i dont think dpit has anything over pit really.B-but... It was such a late kill and everything... EVERYTHING I did over and over... and over was for nothing. The lag... The. Lag.
Changing the subject: What's the MU on
Seriously though, even tiny differences can give one a slight edge.
Aww... Not even one having more fabulous hair than the other?
I seriously think the fact that Pikmin are no longer .0004 frames per second has endeared him to a lot of people.
Yeah, I play wendy. Wendy is by far NOT the worst. She is the most disgusting/ hard to look at koopa kid, which makes her the BEST koopa kid OBVIOUSLY! I used to be a bowser jr main, then i switched back to c fal when i realized he was viable.I like how these characters are all girls... except Little Mac. ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US SOMETHING MENO
Also why would you play Wendy when there are much better Koopalings to choose from? Wendy's the worst (Lemmy's a close second though)
@
I think his best top/high-tier MU is with Rosalina since she's such a big target and is almost as light as we are. I don't think Pikachu and Fox are too bad by the she logic of being light. He struggles against heavies because they outrange him and kill him in 5 hits. We can rack heavy damage (NAir still doing 17% if all hits connect lol).
well is we are talking looks. pit is the better looker because he eats all that floor ice cream.Aww... Not even one having more fabulous hair than the other?
So, it's basically a pseudo-mirror match between them? This is ironic since Dark Pit was born from a mirror.
as opposed to ?
AlwaysHere's an interesting topic...
When do you think one should use
when your opponent needs a doctor-assisted suicide.
I saw that post and I agree with him. But a character can't be "low tier" if he beats top tier...I like how these characters are all girls... except Little Mac. ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL US SOMETHING MENO
Also why would you play Wendy when there are much better Koopalings to choose from? Wendy's the worst (Lemmy's a close second though)
@
I think his best top/high-tier MU is with Rosalina since she's such a big target and is almost as light as we are. I don't think Pikachu and Fox are too bad by the she logic of being light. He struggles against heavies because they outrange him and kill him in 5 hits. We can rack heavy damage (NAir still doing 17% if all hits connect lol).
Dat Wesker effect.
Either we learn how to play against him or Nintendo nerfs him.
IIRC something on SmashWiki on the topic of tier lists says, roughly, that even if Pichu destroyed Fox in Melee, if he still lost to every other character, he'd still be the worst in the game. Obviously Game & Watch is better than that and his performance against some of the better characters in the game needs to be considered, but I could see him ending up in low mid tier because he does have some significant weaknesses (low weight, poor kill options). But he'd still have good matchups against those high tiers.
