Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

I just won a tourney with Jigglypuff, or the Bair Formerly Known As Jigglypuff. (Technically I did different characters every set, but I did Jiggs in Grand Finals)

Character is good.

 

[Nocally]

I just won a tourney with Jigglypuff, or the Bair Formerly Known As Jigglypuff. (Technically I did different characters every set, but I did Jiggs in Grand Finals)

Character is good.

What/which character(s) did your opponent(s) use?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Having an attack that kills at 85% is indeed good imo.

Having one that can string easily into itself that carried people across the stage is also very good.

Oh, and having one of the strongest punishes in the game on shield break too, let's not forget that.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh, and having one of the strongest punishes in the game on shield break too, let's not forget that.

Yeah, but when can Jigglypuff possibly break a shield?

(I'm gonna cover my rear and label this as sarcasm)

What/which character(s) did your opponent(s) use?

In grand finals, Mario/Pit.

 

[Thinkaman]

Edit: Crap, double post. FORGIVE ME.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, but when can Jigglypuff possibly break a shield?

(I'm gonna cover my rear and label this as sarcasm)

it was sarcasm

the rest of it wasn't, why does bair kill people at 85-100% when fresh? i cry every time

In grand finals, Mario/Pit.

Edit: Crap, double post. FORGIVE ME.

reported i guess.

 

[Luco]

Having an attack that kills at 85% is indeed good imo.

Having one that can string easily into itself that carried people across the stage is also very good.

Oh, and having one of the strongest punishes in the game on shield break too, let's not forget that.

I know who you're talking about, you're defining Ness!

I know Jiggz has been debated about for ages, some people have decided she's virtually unchanged from Brawl and thus pretty useless, others have said the mechanics changes have buffed her more than any changes to her actual moveset and this is what buoys her; others still maintain her moveset changes were vital for her. A friend of mine uses her in tournament and he swears that she's really really good this game and although I find her changes have been subtle, i'd be tempted to agree she's probably on the positive side of the roster (i'm hesitant to say 'high' or 'top' tier just yet because personally I think it's the balance in this game that's doing work more than 'x' character won a tournament so he/she must be 'y' tier); her punishes are so very good and if you try to sit there in shield when she's attacking then enjoy shield-breaking because 2 pounds will spell your complete and utter doom. And hey, without MK dominating the skies she's actually like, you know, the ACTUAL master of the air now. Pretty neat. <3

 

[Thinkaman]

the rest of it wasn't, why does bair kill people at 85-100% when fresh? i cry every time

Jigglypuff bair is actually a wormhole to 2001 which causes you to get hit by a Melee Sheik fair. This is why it does 13% and hits like a rocket launcher.

although I find her changes have been subtle

Smash 4 Jiggs bair is about as "subtle" as Little Mac's ground game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jiggs Bair in Brawl: 12%, 10/90 BKB/KBG
Jiggs Bair in Smash 4: 13%, 0/120 BKB/KBG

Pretty huge buff imo, I think Sheik's fair in Melee was like... 13%, 0/100

So it's scales harder than Sheik's Melee fair. l0l.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yo wtf lol that's RIDICULOUS. I would kill for that Bair.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yo wtf lol that's RIDICULOUS. I would kill for that Bair.

Oh I forgot to mention it has omqwtfbbq range

 

[Thinkaman]

Yo wtf lol that's RIDICULOUS. I would kill for that Bair.

I would kill with this bair!

Jiggs bair relative growth is:

88% of a Falcon knee
81% of a Zelda bair
99% of a Ganon fair
103% of a Ganon bair
39% of an aerial reverse Warlock Punch

Edit: Crap, double posted again. I need to stop having this thread open in two tabs...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Jiggs b-air reminds me of Lucarios where you think you are still in control of the match only to get blasted and left mad and confused.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Edit: Crap, double posted again. I need to stop having this thread open in two tabs...

reported again, i guess

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Fox is top 4. The character is really good but not top 4. Diddy is better. Yoshi is better. Pikachu, Sheik, Rosie and Sonic are also very good to the point where I'd say that Fox is probably not top 5, though definitely top 10.

As far as early matchup impression goes, here are my [somewhat conservative] opinions:

- Fox loses 4/6 or higher: Yoshi
- Around even [between 45/55 and 55/45]: Falcon, Diddy Kong*, Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff, Little Mac*, Lucario, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, Pikachu*, Rosalina*, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic*, Villager, Wario, ZSS
- Fox wins 6/4 or higher: Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, DHD, Ganondorf, DDD, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, MK, Mr. G&W, Pac-Man, ROB, Robin, Samus, Toon Link;

* = these are probably 55/45 in the opponent's favor.

Not sure but probably even[ish]: Greninja [I haven't seen this character after the patch at all anymore], [Dark] Pit, Mii Brawler, Peach
Not sure but probably in Fox' favor: Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Wondering how @ NAKAT feels about these numbers.

 

[BSP]

I can see why DanGR might put Fox in A tier. It makes a lot of sense to me now, and it makes me think that I've been underrating Fox.

Reflector, lasers, speed/mobility, high jumps (for platform stages like Battlefield) and KO power (even though landing the killing blow can be tough sometimes)--he basically has an all-purpose toolkit. He can go in or stay out, and no matter what distance he's fighting you at he's racking up quick damage. The ability to build damage from both far away and up close shouldn't be underestimated; you can go in against some characters and stay out against others, or even do both against the same character depending on what your opponent is doing in response.

The only characters who really don't have to approach Fox in some way are Mii Gunner and Ness because of absorption. Gunner is probably Fox's worst matchup now that I think about it (he can absorb the projectiles that he fires at Fox after Fox reflects them--that's pretty OP). Other than that, I can't think of a character who isn't annoyed by Fox in some capacity--Fox running away or Fox running toward are equally scary for different characters.

Varying your gameplan to deal with different characters is the best way to win a national, and Fox can do that.

Is that about what you were thinking?

Lasers can't send Pac Man's hydrant flying, so he wouldn't have to approach either.

Assuming Pac Man has the lead, he can stand behind it with a key ready to punish any laser attempt.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I don't think Fox is top 4. The character is really good but not top 4. Diddy is better. Yoshi is better. Pikachu, Sheik, Rosie and Sonic are also very good to the point where I'd say that Fox is probably not top 5, though definitely top 10.

As far as early matchup impression goes, here are my [somewhat conservative] opinions:

- Fox loses 4/6 or higher: Yoshi
- Around even [between 45/55 and 55/45]: Falcon, Diddy Kong*, Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff, Little Mac*, Lucario, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, Pikachu*, Rosalina*, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic*, Villager, Wario, ZSS
- Fox wins 6/4 or higher: Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, DHD, Ganondorf, DDD, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, MK, Mr. G&W, Pac-Man, ROB, Robin, Samus, Toon Link;

* = these are probably 55/45 in the opponent's favor.

Not sure but probably even[ish]: Greninja [I haven't seen this character after the patch at all anymore], [Dark] Pit, Mii Brawler, Peach
Not sure but probably in Fox' favor: Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Wondering how @ NAKAT feels about these numbers.

They aren't in any particular order, right? I'm having trouble imagining ~. I don't really think the MU that close. More like 6/4 in Fox's favor. I haven't seen a lot of Warios in tourneys, so I'm given the impression that he's worse this time around.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They aren't in any particular order, right? I'm having trouble imagining ~. I don't really think the MU that close. More like 6/4 in Fox's favor. I haven't seen a lot of Warios in tourneys, so I'm given the impression that he's worse this time around.

People underrate Wario so very much ... he has a projectile that places a disjointed hurtbox in front of him, that can kill and can heal Wario. Bite and Waft are better than ever. Damage output is still very good. Subtle buffs on dash attack, jab and dtilt. Seriously, Wario is no worse than he was in Brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

People underrate Wario so very much ... he has a projectile that places a disjointed hurtbox in front of him, that can kill and can heal Wario. Bite and Waft are better than ever. Damage output is still very good. Subtle buffs on dash attack, jab and dtilt. Seriously, Wario is no worse than he was in Brawl.

If you ask me Waft is about the same minus being able to charge it easier with eating stuff I think, but what really makes it stand out as "better" is the 2 stock meta going around for Smash 4, and the fact that it kills absurdly early in this game to boot. Dtilt is GODLIKE for stopping anything in its tracks. DSmash also got buffed and I think Ftilt is close to if not better but that's potentially placebo.

I think Wario really only struggles against swords and annoying disjoint, honestly.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I've played Wario myself, and he doesn't feel near as awkward as he did in Brawl (before, smashes were faster than tilts, Ftilt delaying, weird Nair). Still, I'll miss being able to throw his bike parts since that was a big plus in his meta (and ZSS's).

I can see Wario struggling against Link since bombs/Dair can instantly destroy his bike AND hit him (I killed a player by doing this).

 

[Sinister Slush]

I thought wario's tires couldn't be used as projectiles anymore.
Or maybe it was more of like Diddy Kong and can hit someone only once.

Also there's no "2 stock meta" outside of places copying NY/NJ which is a horrible way to make the game die out faster.

 

[NAKAT]

I don't think Fox is top 4. The character is really good but not top 4. Diddy is better. Yoshi is better. Pikachu, Sheik, Rosie and Sonic are also very good to the point where I'd say that Fox is probably not top 5, though definitely top 10.

As far as early matchup impression goes, here are my [somewhat conservative] opinions:

- Fox loses 4/6 or higher: Yoshi
- Around even [between 45/55 and 55/45]: Falcon, Diddy Kong*, Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff, Little Mac*, Lucario, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, Pikachu*, Rosalina*, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic*, Villager, Wario, ZSS
- Fox wins 6/4 or higher: Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, DHD, Ganondorf, DDD, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, MK, Mr. G&W, Pac-Man, ROB, Robin, Samus, Toon Link;

* = these are probably 55/45 in the opponent's favor.

Not sure but probably even[ish]: Greninja [I haven't seen this character after the patch at all anymore], [Dark] Pit, Mii Brawler, Peach
Not sure but probably in Fox' favor: Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Wondering how @ NAKAT feels about these numbers.

Gotcha later. Mobile atm. Def top 10 imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tires can't be picked up but Wario can eat them to heal 1% each. The bike itself is his projectile now.

 

[Nabbitnator]

For some reason I dont want to put diddy at the very top because in time he will probably fall in line with the rest of the top tiers.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

For some reason I dont want to put diddy at the very top because in time he will probably fall in line with the rest of the top tiers.

Smash 4 has had some flavor of the week characters, like Bowser, shiek, Rosalina, and now diddy. I agree with diddy not being at the very top, because in my opinion, that spot belongs to shiek. There are many ways to beat characters, sometimes it just takes a bit to find their weaknesses, but in this game everyone (well, almost everyone ) has some sort of downside.

 

[DavemanCozy]

People underrate Wario so very much ... he has a projectile that places a disjointed hurtbox in front of him, that can kill and can heal Wario. Bite and Waft are better than ever. Damage output is still very good. Subtle buffs on dash attack, jab and dtilt. Seriously, Wario is no worse than he was in Brawl.

Yo, D-tilt especially. Such a fast poke, so little cool-down and combos into many of Wario's moves. I also feel like F-air got a slight range buff from Brawl to Wii U.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

I loved playing Wario until they fixed the glitch, but al least you can't grab release K.O. Punch anymore. Wario has really good recovery with the bike, and occasionally the d tilt combos into itself like how ness can do the same thing

 

[AvariceX]

I just linked a bunch of tournament match videos from TCU in the video thread. I know this isn't the video thread but since this was the first Wii-U major that I'm aware of these videos might be good footage to form some base impressions:
http://smashboards.com/threads/game...ideos-only-please.376378/page-2#post-18154790

 

[Gre ninja'd]

I just linked a bunch of tournament match videos from TCU in the video thread. I know this isn't the video thread but since this was the first Wii-U major that I'm aware of these videos might be good footage to form some base impressions:
http://smashboards.com/threads/game...ideos-only-please.376378/page-2#post-18154790

Donkey kong, Mario and shulk top tier?

 

[Citrussed]

Diddy is pretty in line with the rest of the top tiers isn't he? I thought people who put him a tier above the rest of the A-tier were just being hyperbolic.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Diddy is pretty in line with the rest of the top tiers isn't he? I thought people who put him a tier above the rest of the A-tier were just being hyperbolic.

He's a great character, especially with the down throw shenanigans, but I don't think that alone can make him top tier, he would seem lackluster compared to shiek yoshi and Rosalina without it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Diddy's U-air is what makes him so good right now. It's a very quick and hard to avoid KO move, very little start-up and cool down. That, and you can combo into it. It's pretty gross and hard to avoid. Did I mention it's a KO move?

If the big N decides to nerf him though, I still think Diddy will stay in the top (just not as top).

 

[Wumbo105]

I think it's pretty commonly agreed for the moment that Diddy is the best char in the game. But those d-throw nerfs are ultimately inevitable next patch so it's only for now.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Donkey kong, Mario and shulk top tier?

Donkey Kong can't even Punish a shield break
Bottom tier.

Mario can't even beat Donkey Kong
Hyrule Tier.



/takingjabs.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Donkey Kong can't even Punish a shield break
Bottom tier.

Mario can't even beat Donkey Kong
Hyrule Tier.



/takingjabs.

M2k can't beat a ganon or donkey kong. Casual tier.

 

[PK Gaming]

They aren't in any particular order, right? I'm having trouble imagining ~. I don't really think the MU that close. More like 6/4 in Fox's favor. I haven't seen a lot of Warios in tourneys, so I'm given the impression that he's worse this time around.

Wario vs Fox is either even or in Wario's favor

Wario lives for days in that matchup; Fox can't kill him

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Wario vs Fox is either even or in Wario's favor

Wario lives for days in that matchup; Fox can't kill him

I think you've forgotten foxs up smash, forward smash, and back air.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think you've forgotten foxs up smash, forward smash, and back air.

Those aren't reliable kill options. Whiffing either of the smashes will get you KOed by the waft.

Good luck hitting Wario with a Bair.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox can jab 1 -> jab 2 -> Usmash Wario for the kill without trouble.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Smash 4 has had some flavor of the week characters, like Bowser, shiek, Rosalina, and now diddy. I agree with diddy not being at the very top, because in my opinion, that spot belongs to shiek. There are many ways to beat characters, sometimes it just takes a bit to find their weaknesses, but in this game everyone (well, almost everyone ) has some sort of downside.

i dont know what to think other than out of all the top teirs shiek has the most obvious weaknesses.