Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

I think throughout the past 80 pages I've said.
~ All of Swordfighters aerials are disjointed, which is a decent trait
~ Its the swordsman archetype....with a cape,
~ Chakram & Shuriken are redundant together, but on the tl;dr at least he's got projectiles.
~ Feels like a poormans Link in general,
~ D-throw is decent but terrible damage.
~ U-air is actually pretty good.

If he's at the bottom I imagine he will not be there alone.
I personally think the Cape is near mandatory on him, because otherwise why even play him, and I ask that honestly. His down B power thrust is decent as well, 13% damage. Basically he gets two key things I feel other people don't replicate. His Down B Cape and his Down B power thrust. Other members in his disjointed archetype do not exactly replicate this.

His Up special 2 is like Firefox, it's decent. Up special 1 is poop, Up special 3 is arguable, I prefer 2.

I think in the end if people put the time in him, he'll pay off in that Cape will let him win matchups theoreotically for the same reason it aids Mario. Except in exchange for marios speed you'll get range. It's questionable right now if Short is the way to go with him, because range is important, and at short range he can't even utilt battlefields platforms.
A lot more play has to be done with him, and I planned to do more homework on him but frankly I'm having less time during this holiday season.
Perhaps @ san. will continue to monitor him, there are a couple of players interested him on Smashboards at the very least, but its a terribly small group.

I don't think he is as good as the other swordsman, but that doesn't mean he is the worst in the game. However it is "safe" for now to put him there for a couple of reasons (no results, community perception, an abundance of questionable things in his moveset, his throw game outside of D-throw and maybe mid stock u-throw is overall ***, etc).

I've also been trying to delve more into Kirby or was before things came up, he can't approach and he is generally the same as brawl but I feel he does rather well against the perceived upper echelon, it's the less discussed members of the cast that bully him.

On top of that there is little Link talk, and even less Toon Link. I bring this up because I feel that Sword Fighter won't rise higher then them, and it be nice to contrast Links strengths with him, but I wont be looking deeper personally into Link any time soon.

I recently talked to @AmazingAmpharos about Swordfighter and he brings an interesting position: The Swordfighter is a very skillful character. His moves are awkward but yield mid to high reward. Being able to space with him is more imperative than any other character seeing how risky they tend to be.
For these reasons I actually recommend Tall/Skinny Mii Swordfighter at least for testing because how how insane his range can be (look at that B-air) and because he has a really good walk speed.

 

[san.]

Swordsman's dair can also instant gimp most of the cast, which is VERY amusing.

Shuriken is good. It may be even faster than water shuriken and does up to 8% damage instead of 3%. It can lead into another shuriken or a followup attack. It's a bit redundant compared to chakram, but it has less lag. The whirlwind attack(forget name) actually does 4 hits to shield, and only the short Miis can follow up properly. Chakram can be used at distance and fast Miis can follow up after the short chakram. Short Chakram is also great at anti-air and edgeguarding.

Medium and Tall Miis can't jab cancel, utilt doesn't lead into itself or combo into uair/bair like the short Miis, can't combo from dtilt, can't combo from high % fair, etc. You can combo fairly easily with the short Miis. Specials also seem to be the same minus the rainbow cape having more range.

I prefer upB3, Link's upB, because it carries your horizontal momentum, unlike their originals. UpB2 is just asking to get gimped and upB1 doesn't have any distance.


The short Miis can't approach for crap. However, they can almost always force an approach or find an opportunity by just spamming whirlwind and caping things thrown at them. Only the short Miis are fast enough to rush in when that opportunity arises.

 

[sunset_raven]

Fwiw, I had Olimar as evenin my list of Fox' matchup numbers. Olimar's not that bad.

But what makes him good in that matchup?

I actually think Olimar is underrated as of now.

Really? Could you elaborate? He seems an interesting character...

If his pikmin don't desynch for no reason, he seems to have a chance to be an annoying keep away character with long reaching smashes and a good nAir to get people away at a pinch.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

So basically it is better on paper than in practice?

Yeah, that's pretty much Mr. G&W for you

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Swordsman's dair can also instant gimp most of the cast, which is VERY amusing.

Shuriken is good. It may be even faster than water shuriken and does up to 8% damage instead of 3%. It can lead into another shuriken or a followup attack. It's a bit redundant compared to chakram, but it has less lag. The whirlwind attack(forget name) actually does 4 hits to shield, and only the short Miis can follow up properly. Chakram can be used at distance and fast Miis can follow up after the short chakram. Short Chakram is also great at anti-air and edgeguarding.

Medium and Tall Miis can't jab cancel, utilt doesn't lead into itself or combo into uair/bair like the short Miis, can't combo from dtilt, can't combo from high % fair, etc. You can combo fairly easily with the short Miis. Specials also seem to be the same minus the rainbow cape having more range.

I prefer upB3, Link's upB, because it carries your horizontal momentum, unlike their originals. UpB2 is just asking to get gimped and upB1 doesn't have any distance.


The short Miis can't approach for crap. However, they can almost always force an approach or find an opportunity by just spamming whirlwind and caping things thrown at them. Only the short Miis are fast enough to rush in when that opportunity arises.

lol i play tall fat mii swordsman like ganondorf. i know its not the combo heavy way but i like punishes and the reach.
And really they cant jab cancel?
guh i need a new lab partner cuz i specifically tested that xd.
@ sunset_raven multi hit nair are really the worst type of keep away tool.
pit would kill for a sex kick. not to say his current nair is bad though.

 

[LionMagnus]

Swordsman's dair can also instant gimp most of the cast, which is VERY amusing.

Shuriken is good. It may be even faster than water shuriken and does up to 8% damage instead of 3%. It can lead into another shuriken or a followup attack. It's a bit redundant compared to chakram, but it has less lag. The whirlwind attack(forget name) actually does 4 hits to shield, and only the short Miis can follow up properly. Chakram can be used at distance and fast Miis can follow up after the short chakram. Short Chakram is also great at anti-air and edgeguarding.

Medium and Tall Miis can't jab cancel, utilt doesn't lead into itself or combo into uair/bair like the short Miis, can't combo from dtilt, can't combo from high % fair, etc. You can combo fairly easily with the short Miis. Specials also seem to be the same minus the rainbow cape having more range.

I prefer upB3, Link's upB, because it carries your horizontal momentum, unlike their originals. UpB2 is just asking to get gimped and upB1 doesn't have any distance.


The short Miis can't approach for crap. However, they can almost always force an approach or find an opportunity by just spamming whirlwind and caping things thrown at them. Only the short Miis are fast enough to rush in when that opportunity arises.

This is actually very interesting to know xD. I fought my friend's sword mii few times, where he choses a short mii with Shuriken and the Spining Ring to play a zoning game instead of going in. Now I know his UpB2 is a big weakness I'm gonna try to gimp/spike him everytime off stage.

 

[Pyr]

It may just be me thinking things or seeing things, but can anyone confirm or deny that Ganon's Fsmash is top invincible? I have an oddly high streak of throwing it out during their aerial and it hitting without issues when I definitely should've been hit.

 

[Mr-R]

Fox, Pikachu and Lucario fall mostly short against Sheik and Diddy? Neither as characters nor in the direct matchups is that the case. ZSS and Rosie also do fine against at least one of them [Diddy] if not against both. Greninja is kind of in the air for me because I haven't seen the character at all anymore after the patch. Oddly enough, Yoshi might be the only one who seriously struggles against both characters but since he ***** everybody else it's probably not a big deal.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that you're pretty off here tbqh. Especially Sheik is nowhere near as good anymore as a lot of people seem to think. She has a number of very different matchups post-patch. I promise you that Sheik will not win any moderately stacked regional tourneys until a new patch comes that nerfs Diddy, Sonic, Yoshi, Fox and Pikachu. And keep in mind that the invitational tournament that Mr r won with Sheik was the pre-patch version ... some people got that mixed up.

Diddy has to be considered the best character at this point. However, neither does that mean that a patch is required to have another character potentially take that spot [though I'll be the first to agree that his uair needs to be fixed - no more than that though] nor is it sensible to put him in a tier of his own right now. Did you know that the Fox players Megafox and Nakat have positive records against their local high and top level Diddy players? The majority of people who complain about Diddy are most certainly unaware of such facts.

Actually, we patched it on the tournament day so it was after the patch. Sheik just beats everyone in neutral over and over untill they make a mistake.

 

[NairWizard]

Missed this.

And keep in mind that the invitational tournament that Mr r won with Sheik was the pre-patch version ... some people got that mixed up.

I'm pretty sure that I told you this in this thread right after you posted about it during the tournament, but just to clarify: Sky said "post"patch. Many people heard "pre" for some reason because the speech there wasn't the clearest.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Since I've seen alot of Mii Swordfighter here, lemme talk real quick:

Shuriken and Chakram should be used at the same time, Chakram is good for gimps and Shuriken is amazing for keepaway (At max distance it does 8.8% according to the Wiki). Up-B should be the Foxfire clone, but take note that the Link Up-B on the ground can kill early too. Down-B MUST be Cape.

Mii Swordfighter, whilst nothing outstanding, have some neat little tricks that aren't too great, but can give him a hand. I plan on making a video on this in the future.

 

[sunset_raven]

lol i play tall fat mii swordsman like ganondorf. i know its not the combo heavy way but i like punishes and the reach.
And really they cant jab cancel?
guh i need a new lab partner cuz i specifically tested that xd.
@ sunset_raven multi hit nair are really the worst type of keep away tool.
pit would kill for a sex kick. not to say his current nair is bad though.

Interesting. Would you say that Olimar has any tool to get an opponent of him? I'd imagine his smashes have too much recovery for this...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, we patched it on the tournament day so it was after the patch. Sheik just beats everyone in neutral over and over untill they make a mistake.

I'm pretty sure that I told you this in this thread right after you posted about it during the tournament, but just to clarify: Sky said "post"patch. Many people heard "pre" for some reason because the speech there wasn't the clearest.

Sky mentioned it multiple times in the videos on D1's channel that it's "pre-patch", not just once. You can even see it when RichBrown plays Pac-Man ...

 

[Smog Frog]

Interesting. Would you say that Olimar has any tool to get an opponent of him? I'd imagine his smashes have too much recovery for this...

actually, olimar's down smash comes out quick and doesnt have too much endlag. it comes out so quick that if you whiff an fsmash with proper spacing, you can cover yourself with dsmash.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

This guy won a tourney with Wii Fit Trainer

http://www.twitch.tv/CanadianJoysticks/b/596459116
7:13:00

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, remember how I brought the Game and Watch hype in here? Well... The results from the Hypest Wii U Singles:

Spoiler

1st - RegiShikimi: /
2nd - Kodystri:
3rd - Phuzix: /
4th - TonyFinale: /////
5th - PremoFire101: /
5th - xJcLxL: /
7th - bundtcake:
7th - RickyMex: /
9th - KhalJesus:
9th - neely //
9th - mallow45
9th - FlashTheSentry

Other then everyone going crazy that TonyFinale actually used a different character in almost every match and actually did so WELL, the biggest talk of the tournament was RegiShikimi plowing through bracket using Game and Watch for almost every single fight. We got some film on it too hopefully we can show folks as soon as it gets uploaded, but Game and Watch definitely is a solid character, but probably better as a pocket to keep for certain matchups then an only use. Everyone agreed with more experience they could have brought the fight home harder, though he didn't try to abuse downtilt from what I know so who knows? Plus seeing two Game and Watch secondaries in the top cut definitely says something.

 

[Yonder]

What bothers me about Game and Watch is that he lost his "glass cannon" status. He can no longer kill super early with his smashes, yet still gets killed super early himself. On the other hands, a lot of moves were buffed like F-tilt, Fair [edgeguard wise], bair, bucket even bacon. He is fantastic at edgeguarding and his tilts feel more effective, but now he struggles to get the kill. I've found myself getting killed first due to low weight as my opponents were in the 130s, trying desperately go edgeguard with fair [which is less effective on good recoveries]. He's no super fast either, so it's even worse if he whiffs his main kill move, U smash.

In short, I do feel like he is slightly worse this time around, that kill power was a detrimental part of him to counter balance his low weight. He either need a weight increase [not happening] or his original smash power back. I mean, he's leagues better than his Melee counterpart, but a little lacking compared to Brawl I fee. Feels like a lower mid, but I wouldn't call him "bad". Being a bit quicker this time around is nice...but let's get that kill power back too [Luigi got some back with F smash and Up B due to vector removing].

 

[Kofu]

What bothers me about Game and Watch is that he lost his "glass cannon" status. He can no longer kill super early with his smashes, yet still gets killed super early himself. On the other hands, a lot of moves were buffed like F-tilt, Fair [edgeguard wise], bair, bucket even bacon. He is fantastic at edgeguarding and his tilts feel more effective, but now he struggles to get the kill. I've found myself getting killed first due to low weight as my opponents were in the 130s, trying desperately go edgeguard with fair [which is less effective on good recoveries]. He's no super fast either, so it's even worse if he whiffs his main kill move, U smash.

In short, I do feel like he is slightly worse this time around, that kill power was a detrimental part of him to counter balance his low weight. He either need a weight increase [not happening] or his original smash power back. I mean, he's leagues better than his Melee counterpart, but a little lacking compared to Brawl I fee. Feels like a lower mid, but I wouldn't call him "bad". Being a bit quicker this time around is nice...but let's get that kill power back too [Luigi got some back with F smash and Up B due to vector removing].

At first I was in denial about his Smashes being weaker but after going back and player Brawl for a bit and saw that his smashes were killing in the 80%-90% range I realized just how gutted they were. You'll probably start killing with his smashes around the 120% mark (only for the sweetspots with FSmash/DSmash though), which was where the DSmash sourspot in Brawl would kill. That was a little silly, I admit, but I'd prefer them to kill around 100% against an actual player (they kill Mario without rage at a little above that currently, but DI needs to be considered). They're probably one of the weakest sets of smash attacks in the game. I feel like they tried to balance them for rage but didn't realize that his low weight makes it harder for him to take advantage of it. They're just barely too weak as they are, I wouldn't tweak them too much. Several of the other light characters have great kill options: Jigglypuff has BAir, Rosalina has Luma's power, and Fox has USmash. I guess Game & Watch has 9s and Oil Panic, but one of those is inconsistent and the other is useless against half the cast or more.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IrPc9N1qIs From @NAKAT
Assuming it wasn't posted.

 

[Asdioh]

At first I was in denial about his Smashes being weaker but after going back and player Brawl for a bit and saw that his smashes were killing in the 80%-90% range I realized just how gutted they were.

I think a lot of characters are like that though. I watched a Brawl Kirby compilation video, and saw a Kirby kill a Meta Knight with Fsmash near the edge of the stage at 52%. It doesn't come anywhere close to doing that anymore, even with a ton of rage.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Maybe it has to do with blastzones in relation to Brawl?

In which case it would be universal, yeah. Or it also (and most likely) is a combination of both.

 

[RWB]

Swordsman's dair can also instant gimp most of the cast, which is VERY amusing.

Shuriken is good. It may be even faster than water shuriken and does up to 8% damage instead of 3%. It can lead into another shuriken or a followup attack. It's a bit redundant compared to chakram, but it has less lag. The whirlwind attack(forget name) actually does 4 hits to shield, and only the short Miis can follow up properly. Chakram can be used at distance and fast Miis can follow up after the short chakram. Short Chakram is also great at anti-air and edgeguarding.

Medium and Tall Miis can't jab cancel, utilt doesn't lead into itself or combo into uair/bair like the short Miis, can't combo from dtilt, can't combo from high % fair, etc. You can combo fairly easily with the short Miis. Specials also seem to be the same minus the rainbow cape having more range.

I prefer upB3, Link's upB, because it carries your horizontal momentum, unlike their originals. UpB2 is just asking to get gimped and upB1 doesn't have any distance.


The short Miis can't approach for crap. However, they can almost always force an approach or find an opportunity by just spamming whirlwind and caping things thrown at them. Only the short Miis are fast enough to rush in when that opportunity arises.

Short Mii seems to have the advantage. Is short and thin(better initial dash and higher jumps) better, or short and fat(better hitstun, I believe)? Or is mid actually a good pick?

 

[san.]

Short Mii seems to have the advantage. Is short and thin(better initial dash and higher jumps) better, or short and fat(better hitstun, I believe)? Or is mid actually a good pick?

Both are good. You can even slightly increase height past minimum and adjust the weight until you're comfortable. It's just slightly easier to follow up and approach at minimum height and weight.

 

[deepseadiva]

This guy won a tourney with Wii Fit Trainer

http://www.twitch.tv/CanadianJoysticks/b/596459116
7:13:00

Ball stall when recovering is one my favorite Wii Fit traits.

A move that stops you in midair, and shoots a fast moving projectile forward. Its the perfect move for that specific situation. <3

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Short Mii seems to have the advantage. Is short and thin(better initial dash and higher jumps) better, or short and fat(better hitstun, I believe)? Or is mid actually a good pick?

It seems for Mii's when it comes to height.
Default to short are where you want the height, and it's rather arguable on an honest level if extreme short is the actual best place to be. Width is really arguable, I actually really dislike thin at the moment because I feel it seems I'm sliding more and I don't do business with Luigi physics.

 

[Kofu]

I think a lot of characters are like that though. I watched a Brawl Kirby compilation video, and saw a Kirby kill a Meta Knight with Fsmash near the edge of the stage at 52%. It doesn't come anywhere close to doing that anymore, even with a ton of rage.

This is true. But most characters have a smash that's noticeably stronger and can use it to kill well. All of Game & Watch's smashes are about the same strength, though, which is a little frustrating. I probably just need to make more of an effort to kill with pivot FSmashes (like I do with other characters) since it's.got really nice range.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Not to keep going ON and ON about Game and Watch's downtilt, but there will be a full video showing some of the insane things it does coming very soon thanks to @ Conda helping me out. Seriously, that move changes entire matchups it seems. Bops Peach's Float, Diddy's Side B, messed with recoveries, can send people flying up to their deaths, and a lot more. I am pumped to show this off.

 

[Conda]

Not to keep going ON and ON about Game and Watch's downtilt, but there will be a full video showing some of the insane things it does coming very soon thanks to @ Conda helping me out. Seriously, that move changes entire matchups it seems. Bops Peach's Float, Diddy's Side B, messed with recoveries, can send people flying up to their deaths, and a lot more. I am pumped to show this off.

HERE IT IS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZs8M4snbrY&feature=youtu.be

Good stuff @ LiteralGrill , had a blast exploring this tech and seeing the implications.

This is surely going to be one of G&W's BnB moves/techs in Smash 4. It's a pretty big deal, opens up a lot of possibilities and shuts down just as many for other characters.

And yes I called it an 'advanced technique' in the beginning the video, my bad. I know it's just a normal technique. I'm just so used to saying "AT"

Link to the Mr. Game & Watch subforum thread (to promote activity there ): http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-game-watch-tech-table-flipping-dtilt-shenanigans-abound.382702/

 

[KlefkiHolder]

So I played Pac-Man today.

Boooy is his grab terrible. I always knew it was bad, but it wasn't until I actually messed around with him some that I realized that his grab, no joke, may be one of the worst ones ever. Like Samus bad, but with less range, but somehwat faster startup.

If he had a normal Grab, he would be sooo much better, especially given that he has some very nice throws.

Also, didn't notice it earlier, but congrats @ san. and @ Conda on getting mod status. Well deserved.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roll cancel grab mah dude.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Roll cancel grab mah dude.

And what would that fix?

He'd still have a laggy tether that is terrible on whiff. I guess getting the hit is a solution though haha

 

[ZeldaMaster]

I think that Chrom's worst matchup would be Captain Falcon. Whenever I use Chrom, and a Captain Falcon player shows up, I fall down and die.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He has the range but is poor on whiff. Same as all tethers. This is not new. Use it out of a back run pivot to counter obvious approaches. Works wonders vs mac and CF for example.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

He has the range but is poor on whiff. Same as all tethers. This is not new. Use it out of a back run pivot to counter obvious approaches. Works wonders vs mac and CF for example.

Ah okay, that helps.

Still, his grab is more limited than others, right?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i would kill for regular samus grab to act like zero suits and grab on the way back as well.

 

[NairWizard]

If Pacman had a normal grab, he'd probably be the best character in the game, or at least a contender for that spot since there are so many strong characters who could take it.

Grab armor was removed going into smash 4, and shields became a bit worse as a defensive option, so having a grab that is good on whiff is not quite as important as it used to be in most situations, but it's still important at kill percents.

When you're trying to land a kill move, your opponent will respond by shielding a lot, because most kill moves lose to shield (kill throws are the exception). Once you opponent starts shielding a lot, you can start grabbing a lot in response. This will condition your opponent into thinking that you're going to grab, and then he'll use a lot less shield (or just keep getting grabbed and eventually die from repeated offstage aerials, I guess, but most people don't do this). That's when you can finally land your kill move.

Conditioning your opponent in this fashion is much more difficult when you're Pacman or any character with a grab that's bad on whiff, because if your opponent starts to read your grabs on his shield he can hit you with f-smashes or other strong moves, possibly even KO'ing you before you can land the KO on him.

Robin is the only character with a bad grab who avoids this issue, because Robin's options against shield are just so broken (Arcthunder, Elfire, throwable items).

 

[LiteralGrill]

I see Mii Swordfighter being brought up here and there again. I guess my only question is, why should I be using him over any other sword fighting character? From where I sit, there is someone else with a sword that does everything he can do but better.

Maybe he's not the worst character in the game like everyone says, but why play him when there are better options?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

why should I be using him over any other sword fighting character?

The cape or Power Thrust

While we could talk about his normals, and the 16% up air or whatever. To make a long story very short.
Swordfighter has a Cape. The only other viable cape effect I can recall is on Mario & Doctor Mario.
Unlike the Marios however he is disjointed. No other disjointed character brings that specific ability to the table.

Personally I feel his counter is pointless because if you want to use a counter on a disjointed character you have Shulk, Ike, Marth, and Paletuna or even (d)pits custom 2 upperdash.

 

[Kofu]

If Pacman had a normal grab, he'd probably be the best character in the game, or at least a contender for that spot since there are so many strong characters who could take it.

Grab armor was removed going into smash 4, and shields became a bit worse as a defensive option, so having a grab that is good on whiff is not quite as important as it used to be in most situations, but it's still important at kill percents.

When you're trying to land a kill move, your opponent will respond by shielding a lot, because most kill moves lose to shield (kill throws are the exception). Once you opponent starts shielding a lot, you can start grabbing a lot in response. This will condition your opponent into thinking that you're going to grab, and then he'll use a lot less shield (or just keep getting grabbed and eventually die from repeated offstage aerials, I guess, but most people don't do this). That's when you can finally land your kill move.

Conditioning your opponent in this fashion is much more difficult when you're Pacman or any character with a grab that's bad on whiff, because if your opponent starts to read your grabs on his shield he can hit you with f-smashes or other strong moves, possibly even KO'ing you before you can land the KO on him.

Robin is the only character with a bad grab who avoids this issue, because Robin's options against shield are just so broken (Arcthunder, Elfire, throwable items).

So. Um. Maybe I'm behind the times or just don't understand things the way everybody else does (possible). But I've heard it said multiple times that Pac-Man would be top tier/the best character in the game with a good grab. But I don't see it. Top tier, maybe, but he doesn't feel good enough have his only real weakness be his grab. Don't get me wrong, he's a great character. Bonus Fruit is like three moves in one, his recovery is safer than it looks at first glance, and Fire Hydrant is just absurd for escaping juggles and setting up traps. His normals have a lot more priority on them than one would think (I have a sneaking suspicion that his limbs are invincible when attacking) and are generally low lag. His smash attacks are relatively safe, too. But nothing about him in general just screams "wow, this character's great!" Can some

 

[Antonykun]

I see Mii Swordfighter being brought up here and there again. I guess my only question is, why should I be using him over any other sword fighting character? From where I sit, there is someone else with a sword that does everything he can do but better.

Maybe he's not the worst character in the game like everyone says, but why play him when there are better options?

He also can gimp, jab lock, and a bunch of other neat tricks.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So. Um. Maybe I'm behind the times or just don't understand things the way everybody else does (possible). But I've heard it said multiple times that Pac-Man would be top tier/the best character in the game with a good grab. But I don't see it. Top tier, maybe, but he doesn't feel good enough have his only real weakness be his grab. Don't get me wrong, he's a great character. Bonus Fruit is like three moves in one, his recovery is safer than it looks at first glance, and Fire Hydrant is just absurd for escaping juggles and setting up traps. His normals have a lot more priority on them than one would think (I have a sneaking suspicion that his limbs are invincible when attacking) and are generally low lag. His smash attacks are relatively safe, too. But nothing about him in general just screams "wow, this character's great!" Can some

to be fair iv never had that impression on any of the cast expecially shiek. being top tier in smash 4 means very little over the rest of the cast.