Character Competitive Impressions

[Sinister Slush]

Shulk in general is just really strong, but not on par with the contenders for S/A tier of course. But in terms of Gashi's list I'd have him above greninja and possibly Villager at best. I'd prolly kick Peach out of B-tier though and but her beneath Lucario or above.

 

[HolySmokes]

I can't help but think this game should have at most 4 tiers (Top/High/Mid/Low) as apposed to S-G. I really don't believe the lowest is as polarized as they are in other games.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The amount of tiers doesnt necessarily reflect the viability difference between the top and the bottom of the list, tiers just separate viability gaps, regardless of how small they may or may not be.

The gaps in this game are definitely smaller than Melee/Brawl's lists, but they still exist.

 

[Big-Cat]

After watching this video on how to counter Diddy, I don't think Diddy is exactly super strong. Rather, he's a wake up call to step up your game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

After watching this video on how to counter Diddy, I don't think Diddy is exactly super strong. Rather, he's a wake up call to step up your game.

In Diddy's case, it's more so a single move and not the character as a whole. The up aerial should be adjusted to be less safe, mainly adding more lag. Contrary to what people think, adjusting the knockback can easily create a Morton's fork situation. If you reduce the knockback, you're going to make the move more efficient at combos. If you increase the knockback, you're going to make it more effective at KOing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I watched that video hours ago and clicked off a few minutes in cause more than half of the video was "RESPECT DIDDY" or just about Fox

I mean, we can respect Meta Knight too but that certainly didn't stop him from winning tournaments still in brawl. Only thing I'll hold true in that video is Fox being good against him which most people knew anyways lol, especially since Megafox won a tournament going against multiple diddy mains/pocket diddy kongs.

The reason people threw diddy kong's bananas away in brawl is cause Diddy's shield was dumb and he can have 2 anyways so better to get rid of one over toss it too him and he either catches it in the air or just shields then grabs it giving him two to mess with.
Diddy (and of course others) can't be doing the old brawl way of airdodge to grab the nanner and land with shield instantly cause of the landing lag, but it's still unsafe and unless I see an opportunity like Diddy throwing out a laggy move for some odd reason then I'll use his peel against him.
It also helped in brawl that it of course stayed out on the field like a regular item till it goes out where as Smash 4 the nanner goes away after one hit/throw. So it's more better to be abusing his bananas in Smash 4 than it was in Brawl due to having one shot to either just hit him or just accomplish nothing until he throws the next one out. For most characters it was better for them to toss the banana away instead of use it against them.

 

[BSP]

Bringing up BSP's theoretical "Diddy with a trampoline" scenario... he already kind of has that in bananas. A trampoline would be loads better because:
1. You HAVE to jump to avoid it unless you're Wario (or maybe if you have a roll long enough to roll over it, IDK if that even works though).
2. You can't remove it by grabbing it or reflecting it.

You can't roll past trampoline. That also applies to ledge rolls.

You're right, Diddy has some control on his own right, except yes, a trampoline would be even better. It would turn the game into:

1. Did they jump over your trampoline?

Y - Shield grab their landing, throw them offstage, run to the other side, repeat

N - wait 2 seconds, then ask question 1 again.

Other than that, Z'z nailed it.

Pac-Man's current grab isn't even that horrible like people exaggerate. It can ignore side stepping and has above normal range, which gives Pac-Man a few niches in that regard.

Yes it is. Last night on PB&J's stream, I watched Ganon whiff a Fair on Pac Man's shield and still have time to Ftilt Pac Man before his attempt at shieldgrabbing connected. It's that horrible.

 

[Big-Cat]

In Diddy's case, it's more so a single move and not the character as a whole. The up aerial should be adjusted to be less safe, mainly adding more lag. Contrary to what people think, adjusting the knockback can easily create a Morton's fork situation. If you reduce the knockback, you're going to make the move more efficient at combos. If you increase the knockback, you're going to make it more effective at KOing.

I'd say it's the whole character as a whole. He has Side B mixups, stage control with peels, a great KO move with BGPK that can be set up with DThrow, and decent range all around. He calls for strong reading, know how to DI, whiff punishing, turning the tides against them, and to detect desperate moments.

And when you said Morton's Fork, I thought you were talking about BJ's UTilt and FTilt.

 

[Kofu]

Yes it is. Last night on PB&J's stream, I watched Ganon whiff a Fair on Pac Man's shield and still have time to Ftilt Pac Man before his attempt at shieldgrabbing connected. It's that horrible.

This would be more convincing if Ganon's FAir didn't have massive range and didn't deal substantial damage to induce higher hitstun. It does depend on how well it was spaced though; if the FAir was badly spaced you have a point.

From what I can tell about Pac-Man's grab, it comes out on frame 12 and has an expanding grab box up until about frame 40 (assuming I read Dantarion's data dump correctly). So while it is slow on startup, it's not THE slowest grab and the extending grab box is pretty nice. I'm not sure how long the full animation is though. It seems to be more punishable specifically on whiff (which is true for all tethers).

I guess I'll concede that Pac-Man really would be that strong, if.not the best, with a good grab, since practically everyone seems to agree on that point. If his zoning really is that good, however, I would expect more people to be ranking him higher or for more people to place using him (yes, I'm aware of Abadango in Japan but AFAIK he's the only one). It'd probably take a player who doesn't mind being patient but it should be possible. What I'm reading seems to imply that he's really gold without a normal grab, but that last thing would just makes things silly.[/quote]

 

[Nobie]

After watching this video on how to counter Diddy, I don't think Diddy is exactly super strong. Rather, he's a wake up call to step up your game.

A while back in this thread some people brought up Mega Man as a character good for fighting Diddy, and at the time I thought that this couldn't be right because of how few tools Mega Man has to defend while descending. When I watched Nakat's anti-Diddy guide, some of the things he mentioned have me re-evaluating my opinion.

First, the fact that Mega Man has a good combination of above-average weight, high fall speed, and good horizontal movement means he's not as easy a target to fight in the air as a floaty character. On top of that, the ability to both escape from up-air follow ups using Rush Coil and then still be able to attack and defend immediately afterwards, even with meager tools, means he has a better chance of escaping.

Second, the thing about characters struggling to deal with banana peels (and over-shielding as a result) is something that doesn't affect Mega Man nearly as much. His pellet attacks are quick, neutralize bananas, and are generally important enough in all matchups that a Mega Man player doesn't have to do anything unconventional to both remember to use them and know how to use them effectively. He can also beat Peanut Pop Gun and possibly even Monkey Flip for similar reasons.

I think the thing that had me questioning Mega Man before was that Diddy Kong, should he get in, can really make Mega Man's life tough, but forgot to remember that this is the case for pretty much every other character too.

I watched that video hours ago and clicked off a few minutes in cause more than half of the video was "RESPECT DIDDY" or just about Fox

Well, the video didn't just say "respect Diddy," it said, "respect Diddy, but not too much." Basically, realize that Diddy has all these good options, but if you start thinking of them as these overwhelming properties and start becoming afraid to engage with the character, then he becomes even more dangerous.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Why the shying from Brawler?
Reality is if you don't ban out his alternate specials he will wreck you.
Replace Diddys U-air for Helicopter kick or Piston Punch, lethal. Normals? Lethal. Onslaught? Lethal.
Feint Jump? Great, even his Onslaught variant in down special is potent though Feint Jump takes priority.
Heaven forbid Up 1 Is ever found competent because outside of that and Headache maker? Man is as volatile as the "S".

Lucario is starting to come off like early impression Bowser. He's going to fall off naturally. Peach,Pit, Shulk? All stronger. An eye should be kept out for metaknight because he's probably suffering right now from the culture shock still. After 1.04 he is much more potent, and he wasn't that bad off in the beginning.

 

[Chuva]

I don't think Lucario or Bowser will ever fall too much in power rankings. Their reward is too good for them to drop in relevance, kinda like why Zangief is still a good pick in USF4 even with all his negative matchups. If anything, characters like should be worthy secondaries/counter-picks.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well, the video didn't just say "respect Diddy," it said, "respect Diddy, but not too much." Basically, realize that Diddy has all these good options, but if you start thinking of them as these overwhelming properties and start becoming afraid to engage with the character, then he becomes even more dangerous.

That was just the first one. I dunno man, I heard the word respect thrown around at least 5 or 6 times in that video. One of em being in order to counter his grab, you respect it.

Respect > Diddy 90:10 MU confirmed, respects favor.

Also people aren't afraid really of approaching diddy, just he usually never wants too by either camping with peanut gun/banana, just honestly sits back waiting for an opportunity to get a grab, or even rush in reacting to their opponents either throwing out random moves to try and punish him only to be out prioritized by Diddy's aerials/tilts or alternatively somehow get the grab when just running in.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'd say it's the whole character as a whole. He has Side B mixups, stage control with peels, a great KO move with BGPK that can be set up with DThrow, and decent range all around. He calls for strong reading, know how to DI, whiff punishing, turning the tides against them, and to detect desperate moments.

And when you said Morton's Fork, I thought you were talking about BJ's UTilt and FTilt.

I am well are of the varies strengths the character has, but even you mention via our Skype conversations that toning down the up aerial for the sake of not making it stupidly easy to execute would not be a bad idea. Everything else could be left alone for all I care, arguably other minor nerfs if absolutely needed.

 

[Big-Cat]

I am well are of the varies strengths the character has, but even you mention via our Skype conversations that toning down the up aerial for the sake of not making it stupidly easy to execute would not be a bad idea. Everything else could be left alone for all I care, arguably other minor nerfs if absolutely needed.

I was just talking about the big picture with Diddy, meaning it's not just the BGPK that you have to be aware of.

But to reiterate with everyone else, all Diddy needs fixed is more ending lag on UAir/BGPK.

EDIT: I just realized I misinterpreted your post. We were already on the same page.

 

[DblCrest]

On gash's list I'm curious about why Link is low. I mean with all the projectiles he can throw (Which is a bit of a nightmare when your online match is lagging) . Is it because he's one of those characters that lose their zoning game when there's platforms?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

^^ because we don't use online play when evulating matchups and tier list.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Speaking of Link, am I the only one that thinks Link is a solid character in this game but suffers badly from competition?

 

[Chuva]

I wonder if by chance Diddy gets a nerf, will people just start complaining about Ness Instead? After all he also has grab setups that leads into a kill, plus all the other traits that makes Ness so good.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

On gash's list I'm curious about why Link is low. I mean with all the projectiles he can throw (Which is a bit of a nightmare when your online match is lagging) . Is it because he's one of those characters that lose their zoning game when there's platforms?

Link's projectile game isn't as versatile as other characters, and his up close/air game is somewhat below average. He's not as bad as he was in Brawl, but he can't effectively keep the better characters away, and he struggles when they close in.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I wonder if by chance Diddy gets a nerf, will people just start complaining about Ness Instead? After all he also has grab setups that leads into a kill, plus all the other traits that makes Ness so good.

Definitely. First rule of fighting games. Everyone is OP until you're best in the game. Then it's balanced and your character is mid tier.

 

[Asdioh]

But to reiterate with everyone else, all Diddy needs fixed is more ending lag on UAir/BGPK.

Nah, there's no way you can convince me that more ending lag is "all" that move needs. When Upair can hit me out of a solid jab combo, there's a problem. It is by far the best upair in the game, it needs a bit more startup, and less knockback growth, it's way too strong of a kill option. Judging by the last patch notes, he'll get a lot more than that, but that's at least what I think it needs.

 

[NairWizard]

At this point I've pretty much given up on this topic (tier lists are so boring/uninformative), but as a parting thought I wanted to chime in on Ike and Shulk, as I've played both characters in tournament: Ike is better. Certainly with customs on, probably with customs off.

The difference is commitment. Shulk has to commit to an approach whereas Ike is mostly safe with his aerials and tilts, which makes all the difference. Shulk isn't that good in neutral (he's not bad, he's just average), especially because he has basically no autocancels (f-air autocancels in an incredibly awkward window), whereas Ike is probably one of the best characters in neutral. B-air alone (completely safe on shield, super fast, kills early) is reason for Ike to be well above Shulk, but Shulk's arts don't make up for Ike's general safety: look at Ike's d-tilt, f-tilt, and f-air. Shulk's tilts are all punishable (even on shield) outside of Buster Mode, but Ike is always completely safe if he spaces well.

Ike also does more damage since he has more combos (independent of art; Ike can do 15-25% if he hits you once), and Shulk's aerials do meh damage overall.

Also, Ike's recovery is better outside of Shulk's Jump Mode.

Shulk is better at edgeguarding (with customs off), because of Jump Monado. He's also slightly better against projectiles while in Speed. But Ike's advantages are much bigger.

With customs on... well, I'm pretty sure that Ike is the best character in the game with customs on, better than Sonic/Palutena/etc, but that's a thought for another time.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

@ NairWizard


Nooo don't leave us! You may not be the hero we need, but you're the one we deserve!

Anyways, godspeed my man. Godspeed.

And to make this on topic ... Ike needs some more results imo before we can truly decide whether he or shulk is better. They're both very good imo, but Monado Arts are just so.... good...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where is all the random Peach hype coming from?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'd buy Custom Ike > Shulk.
Shulks customs don't really open anything new for him.
Power vision makes counter dumb, The Air slashes are legit differently flavors only thing is MAS lets you go even deeper off-stage at the cost of an OOS kill option.
Back slash 1 is already arguably the best, with a couple in favor of BSC.
The real meat and potatoes other then Power vision, is whether Decisive or Hyper make a difference. They kind of don't? In fact Hyper is really iffy high risk/high reward gameplay but coupled with its short duration outside of Monado art canceling your basically in the same place as normal Monado arts.
Only thing I really see coming off well is Decisive may be favorable for some aspects since Speed art is so strong, and Dec buster is quite safe. However Im such a fan of Decisive Speed I dont think Shulk will move much even in a custom environment. Shulks shield safety relative to ike is decreased by Shulks speed ranging from between best and top 4 at worst depending on the Monado Speed slotted allowing him like his peers in that speed bracket to pierce defense reliably with grabs and degrade the value of shielding to begin with.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...ther-outside-fixes-improve-online-experience/

So, about all of that talk about Diddy for sure getting a nerf....

 

[Iron Kraken]

Definitely. First rule of fighting games. Everyone is OP until you're best in the game. Then it's balanced and your character is mid tier.

I broke all the rules man. Prior to the patch I was saying that Rosalina was probably the best character in the game, even though I mained her. Then when she got nerfed I applauded it.

---

Also I just want to say, I think is criminally underrated by a lot of people. Like, most people acknowledge Yoshi is top 10, maybe even top 5, and yet I still think he's being underrated. For some reason very few US Smash pros are even using him (you see much more Yoshi in Japan.)

With the sole exception of his grab, there isn't one thing about Yoshi that isn't absolutely amazing. I think Eggs are the best projectile in the game. His recovery is almost impossible to gimp. His jab is amazing. His dash attack is amazing. All of his smash and aerial attacks are fast and powerful. Most of his attacks have priority.

I think if there was a top US professional who mained Yoshi, it would open people's eyes as to how dominant this character is. I think Yoshi challenges Diddy for best in the game right now.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Well then.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

On a separate note, I'm really feeling the Batman references today. Like wow are they strong today.

 

[Chuva]

Time to embrace our primate overlord.

 

[Iron Kraken]

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...ther-outside-fixes-improve-online-experience/

So, about all of that talk about Diddy for sure getting a nerf....

Welp. Everyone had better learn to hold the joystick up and away from Diddy after he grabs you. And don't forget to press the jump button!

If only Rosalina hadn't won those week 1 national 3DS tournaments in the US and UK. If only Japan hadn't placed Diddy at C-tier in Week 1. Crazy that the things that happened in week 1 seem like they will be permanently influential in Smash 4 gameplay.

Having said all of that... I'm still not 100% convinced there will never be slight adjustments to character balance again, given that we know DLC will be worked on, such as Mewtwo and (probably) more characters down the road. He also said they would continue to make adjustments to the online experience (Battlefield-style Omega stages, anyone?!)

It should be noted, Sakurai did say this on the possibility of future balance patches:

"But with that said, if there are any glaring issues, we may address them."

I'm not saying that Sakurai is going to see something like Diddy's downthrow as a "glaring issue," but at the very least that line leaves the possibility of balance patches open to some extent.

 

[Mr. Johan]

‪#DiddyKongIsEverything #HesAllYouEverWanted

Wonder if it'll take a mass Diddy presence at Apex to provoke a reconsideration. Nintendo's sponsoring it, so they are going to have eyes on the goings-on.

 

[Deleted member]

Time to embrace our primate overlord.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Time to embrace our primate overlord.

Time to learn the matchup properly and explore possible counters more.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm just thinking/hoping Diddy is more of a Snake-like character rather than a MK-like character.

I can see it ending up that way as well. Snake had those amazing tilts, grenades were great in so many different ways, Snakedashing... yet ultimately not the best in the game.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Time to learn the matchup properly and explore possible counters more.

So which characters realistically have a winning match up against Diddy right now?

 

[Dinoman96]

Sakurai really wants to be done with this game, doesn't he?

Like, at this point I'm really not expecting any additional DLC content outside of Mewtwo/Miiverse stage/tourneys (All of which probably were planned to be in the game initially but they kinda had to rush the games out).

 

[meleebrawler]

So which characters realistically have a winning match up against Diddy right now?

Oh goody, the rumblings of a meta revolving around
your performance against a particular character...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Glad to see the overreacting started early, hopefully it'll be out of your systems by Christmas so you can enjoy the holidays.

 

[Big-Cat]

So which characters realistically have a winning match up against Diddy right now?

You want to know who might be a serious contender? Villager.