Character Competitive Impressions

[Z'zgashi]

Imo top 3 projectiles are (and in no real order) Pac-Man's Key, Sheik's Needles, and Duck Hunt's Can. I could see Yoshi's eggs being top 5 though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not sure "best projectile" really means anything since these projectiles are often diverse moves that do very different things character to character and you have to think how it works into a gameplan. Like I think Pk Thunder is a better move than all of the "top projectiles" being mentioned, but no one just fires bolts at people using that move as projectile pressure it's used completely differently mostly about letting Ness dominate the space all around him and just kill people/move around at his discretion. If we define projectile just as anything that can be bounced back by Fox's reflector in any way, I suppose I'd list the top projectiles as Timber Counter, Thoron+, Pk Thunder, Snaring Aura Sphere, Mii Gunner's fair, and Villager's fair/bair with an honorable mention list of Yoshi eggs, ZSS paralyzer, Mega Man fsmash, and DH's Zig-Zag Can but that would seem to be a very different list than most people's and several of these moves are not really used for projectile pressure at all.

 

[Luco]

Actually it's a notion that people carried over from Brawl and Melee not to use PKT aggressively. We've known about juggling situations for some time, but against some - especially slower runners - it's quite a viable projectile at long range for safe harassment, in certain situations... like one or two is quite safe. Also offstage harass. It's pretty great. <3

Agreed though that many of the best projectiles in the game are used for different purposes than just projectile harassment.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I dont think Ness' up b is as amazing as you guys are making it out to be, I mean, just throwing out a hitbox will get rid of it, and Ness still has cooldown after you destroy it, so its not like he can punish you for fairing it or something.

 

[Luco]

I dont think Ness' up b is as amazing as you guys are making it out to be, I mean, just throwing out a hitbox will get rid of it, and Ness still has cooldown after you destroy it, so its not like he can punish you for fairing it or something.

It's hard for this to be the case because of PKT's manouverability. At neutral, Ness will dash, upB and aim the bolt at the opponent's head, if they shield it actually goes through the shield if you get it to skim it (not actually very hard) and it's often then curved around to apply extra shield pressure or hit the person - if they don't shield it then they get hit and that's good. If they do shield it then it's shield pressure and nothing is lost. And because of how most people will use it, it's just to just throw out a hitbox and cancel it.

Where it really shines is off-stage, where sure you can use a hitbox to try and get rid of it but doing that AND recovering is a big ordeal; most people won't be able to do both so people try to settle for putting all their effort into recovering. Here, against most chars Ness is guaranteed to net percentage when they're offstage and often screw up recoveries with the tail.

Juggling is an obvious one, most people will try to FF AD because many D-airs won't cancel the bolt but the bolt can be manouvered and will cover the AD and usually be in our favour (granted some people can punish failed juggles) - but this can also lead into early kills if the opponent is silly enough to be trying to approach you at this point in time, so... yeah.

I've never praised it as top 5 before (never really thought about it haha), I have no idea where it actually sits, but I certainly think it's a very good projectile. Ionno, it's pretty good @ Z'zgashi and I would maintain it's soooo much better this iteration than ever before. I think it's also somewhat unexplored and will be part of our developing meta; but that's just me.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I agree its better, but a top projectile? No way. It's just a long range/offstage pressure tool, it wont do anything more than give you an additional hit or two worth of damage at best after he knocks you away.

As for dairs not beating it, Ive never had any aerial Ive ever used not beat PKT2, and I play against Ness a ton. From my experience, any hitbox will stop it. And anyone who is FF AD through a PKT2 is doing it wrong unless they have a REALLY fast fastfall and are high in the air, but then again at that point, why is Ness even using up b, so its a moot point.

There are VERY few situations Ive been in where I feel like I couldnt deal with PKT2, and the vast majority of those situations are just being a character with a bad recovery offstage in a bad position. The pressure is easy to deal with and honestly, Ness doesnt get much out of it the majority of the time. Its cool and all that it can safely pressure, but Ness doesnt actually get too much out of it without good reads, and thats nowhere near enough to call it a top projectile in the game imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

I do think lag makes all projectiles significantly better, and PKT the most of all of them. This might play into perceptions of the move, people talking about it from different contexts.

I only play offline, and I think PKT is a really good move but not "best-in-game" or such.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I only play offline, and I think PKT is a really good move but not "best-in-game" or such.

Pretty much this. The way I was talking about it kinda makes it sound like I think its bad, but its not, its solid, its just not one of the best. It does its job, and it does it well, but thats it.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I wasn't expecting to spark a separate conversation when I called Yoshi's eggs the "best projectile in the game."

But seriously... I really do think Yoshi's eggs are the overall most useful projectile in the game.

Eggs don't need to be charged. They're fast. They can be thrown up, straight ahead, at an angle, used to hit opponents above you, below you, and right in your face. Eggs are a defensive and spacing tool, rack up damage for little risk, and they also set up kill combos. Combined with the super armor on Yoshi's second jump, eggs make it almost impossible to gimp Yoshi. There's no limit to what eggs can do.

There's a Japanese player named Yoshidora who is winning a lot of major tournaments in Japan with Yoshi and he abuses the hell out of eggs. There are many US pros who would probably would not enjoy this playstyle. But seriously.... just look at what Yoshidora does with those eggs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_10kBx9rkE (3DS grand finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNlCaiAvys (another 3DS grand finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVguMNHQks (semi finals of a Wii U tournament)

 

[Yokoblue]

Egg combos into f-air?! I did not even realize that that was possible. Just wondering, if you believe that egg is one of the "top 2" best projectiles in the game, what is the other?

I think that to be the top projectile in the game, you have to have multiple functions, can be used in many situation, without much of a drawback and hard to dodge. If it can be angled, its all the better.

Thats why Ness isnt the best (vulnerable), thoron is only good at killing (or at least you want to keep it that way, otheriwse you used arcthunder to combo), pac-man tools could be top 3 easily if we count them all but the key is mostly used to kill and nothing else.

I would say either Pikachu's or Sheik is the 2nd best. Its personnal at that point. I think Yoshi is the best, pikachu 2nd and sheik 3rd... I think pikachu rank #2 because no charge, fast, can be used on approach and most important, is super good at killing offstage.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wait, are we just talking the projectiles themselves or like the character behind them as well? Cuz if we're just talking just projectiles, I dont think Yoshi's eggs are top 3, but if you're counting like, Yoshi's mobility while he's throwing them as well, then I do. I thought we were just straight up talking nothing but the projectiles lol...

 

[BSP]

I dont think Ness' up b is as amazing as you guys are making it out to be, I mean, just throwing out a hitbox will get rid of it, and Ness still has cooldown after you destroy it, so its not like he can punish you for fairing it or something.

If the PK thunder is coming from above you, yeah, it's simple to get rid of. If you're falling into it, Ness can loop it so you hit the tail. As far as I know, the tail is transcendent, so attacking it is futile.

pac-man tools could be top 3 easily if we count them all but the key is mostly used to kill and nothing else.

It can KO, but 15% is nothing to ignore, and it pierces through other projectiles too. The Key isn't the best at all times, but only using it at KO % is a waste. Plus, if Pac-Man gets it in his hand, he can z-drop it to instantly launch his hydrant and also have another ridiculous OOS option.

Edit: Oh yeah, Melon is great too. Everything Dragontamer said plus it tanks other projectiles that hit it, giving Pac-Man an easy recatch.

 

[dragontamer]

PacMan's key but no mention of PacMan's melon?

Melon == mind games against the vast majority of the cast. Opponents who think they can catch it take a dash-attack combo to the face. Opponents who back-roll get one step dangerously towards the edge. Opponents who forward roll eat a combo (Dash or jab typically). Opponents who jump face Pacman's (usually) superior air game. Shielding the melon only gets you grabbed.

And of course, 12% dmg and KO potential on the melon (~120%ish) means getting hit is a bad idea as well.

Slow projectiles ftw, honestly. The slower a projectile is, the more horizontal control you get. Mario's Fireball, Lucario Aura Sphere, PacMan Melon, Samus homing missile.

These are the projectiles that "control" the game. The faster killing projectiles are best used as punishes (roll punish, air-dodge punish, etc. etc.). But slow spammy projectiles eat up your opponent's projectiles and give you cover to run in and rushdown.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Wait, are we just talking the projectiles themselves or like the character behind them as well? Cuz if we're just talking just projectiles, I dont think Yoshi's eggs are top 3, but if you're counting like, Yoshi's mobility while he's throwing them as well, then I do. I thought we were just straight up talking nothing but the projectiles lol...

I'm talking about how much overall utility a character gets from their projectile, so it's definitely in relation to the other things about the character.

The main point I was making is that Yoshi is absurdly good. I see Yoshi being in the same class as Diddy Kong and Sheik. Yet very few American professionals give Yoshi a real chance. I see many other characters getting A LOT more use than Yoshi, including Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Falcon, Fox, Mario, Luigi, Ness, and others.

Yoshi is also really fun to play, so it's kind of a head scratcher.

 

[Esquire]

I'm not sure if this has been reported or not, as I haven't found this anywhere online nor in any guide, but both Pit and Dark Pit's Side Special arms do significantly more knockback if it hits an opponent trying to use a Smash attack. I made this discovery during a For Glory match, where I was able to KO a Luigi charging a DSmash at 51 percent. I've tested this out in training mode, and while I can't duplicate that 51% KO, it comes darn near close, so it's essentially confirmed. I want to say that the knockback is almost double what it would normally be.

As for the practical uses of this, this makes Upperdash/Electroshock Arm one of the best anti-hard read moves. If your opponent tries to just throw out smashes or read a roll, use this move for an early KO. It's also just a nice bonus if you make a good read generally.

EDIT: Ah, was not aware of that. Thank you! Question is, is it always about double the knockback for all moves? 110% KO range -> 50% KO range seems incredibly different.

Also, to add to the projectile discussion, can't rule out the versatility of Pit's bow or the general goodness of Link's bombs. There's a ton of really, really good projectiles out there.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That should be all moves in general. People who get hit while charging a smash attack get more knockback done to them. Which is why sometimes people die earlier than they should, not just Pit/Dark pit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not sure if this has been reported or not, as I haven't found this anywhere online nor in any guide, but both Pit and Dark Pit's Side Special arms do significantly more knockback if it hits an opponent trying to use a Smash attack. I made this discovery during a For Glory match, where I was able to KO a Luigi charging a DSmash at 51 percent. I've tested this out in training mode, and while I can't duplicate that 51% KO, it comes darn near close, so it's essentially confirmed. I want to say that the knockback is almost double what it would normally be.

As for the practical uses of this, this makes Upperdash/Electroshock Arm one of the best anti-hard read moves. If your opponent tries to just throw out smashes or read a roll, use this move for an early KO. It's also just a nice bonus if you make a good read generally.

This is a general thing. Hitting someone while they're charging a smash will knock them farther, it's not exclusive to Pit/Dark Pit.

Whee concurrent posts.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I'm not sure if this has been reported or not, as I haven't found this anywhere online nor in any guide, but both Pit and Dark Pit's Side Special arms do significantly more knockback if it hits an opponent trying to use a Smash attack. I made this discovery during a For Glory match, where I was able to KO a Luigi charging a DSmash at 51 percent. I've tested this out in training mode, and while I can't duplicate that 51% KO, it comes darn near close, so it's essentially confirmed. I want to say that the knockback is almost double what it would normally be.

As for the practical uses of this, this makes Upperdash/Electroshock Arm one of the best anti-hard read moves. If your opponent tries to just throw out smashes or read a roll, use this move for an early KO. It's also just a nice bonus if you make a good read generally.

EDIT: Ah, was not aware of that. Thank you! Question is, is it always about double the knockback for all moves? 110% KO range -> 50% KO range seems incredibly different.

Also, to add to the projectile discussion, can't rule out the versatility of Pit's bow or the general goodness of Link's bombs. There's a ton of really, really good projectiles out there.

This is definitely a thing for all characters, not just Pit / Dark Pit.

On the Rosalina boards, someone recently posted this video of Rosalina's up-tilt killing a Bowser Jr. at 19%:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiEmmE9PUm4&t=2m38s

Notice that Rosalina was in rage mode and that Bowser Jr. was going for a forward-smash when this happened.

I can also report that I've killed with Rosalina's up-air at 10% before, for what it's worth. Basically it was exactly what happened here in this video with D1, except at 10% rather than 25%:

http://instagram.com/p/v3mzEiKZvU/

 

[TheMiSP]

This is definitely a thing for all characters, not just Pit / Dark Pit.

On the Rosalina boards, someone recently posted this video of Rosalina's up-tilt killing a Bowser Jr. at 19%.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiEmmE9PUm4&t=2m38s

Notice that Rosalina was in rage mode and that Bowser Jr. was going for a forward-smash when this happened.

I can also report that I've killed with Rosalina's up-air at 10% before, most likely due to similar circumstances.

Is that why characters flash yellow when charging smashes? Hmm, something new for me.

 

[Locke 06]

Is this the competitive impressions thread or the mechanics thread?

Someone should bring this up in the mechanics thread. oh wait

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Sonic is the best projectile in the game. It can hit you from anywhere, is completely safe on block, can't be reflected or absorbed and it comboes into itself for free at any time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Sonic is the best projectile in the game. It can hit you from anywhere, is completely safe on block, can't be reflected or absorbed and it comboes into itself for free at any time.

The most real in this thread LMFAO. Also the reason why running FSmash will never be allowed ever.

On a side note I think Yoshi's eggs are good, Pac-Man melon and key are notable, Sheik needles are also as usual phenomenal. I don't got much to say otherwise, those are my picks for utility purposes and standout ones.

 

[Chuva]

Thunder Jolt is really good too

 

[Trifroze]

If we talk about projectiles, there's no reason to categorize arcthunder and thoron as different ones since it's the same projectile with less or more charge. It's like differentiating Samus' full charge shot from the little ones.

As such I think Robin's thunder and its variations is probably the best projectile in the game if we only judge the projectile itself. Thunder/elthunder can keep opponents away briefly, catch people dashing and nullify other projectiles. Elthunder in particular can snipe people offstage, while arcthunder guarantees a follow-up grab and more for Robin, the slowest runner in the game, as well as applies great shield pressure. Lastly thoron is extremely quick for its range, does 20% of damage, and kills at around 120-140%.

With customs on, thoron+ is quite ridiculous but the charge time becomes an issue with that, so I might opt for snaring aura sphere there.

As someone who plays vs Yoshis a lot though, I do have to agree the egg is really versatile as well but it's mostly that good because of the follow-ups and cover Yoshi can use it for.

 

[Kofu]

I think Sonic is the best projectile in the game. It can hit you from anywhere, is completely safe on block, can't be reflected or absorbed and it comboes into itself for free at any time.

I remember a comment in Brawl's lifetime that MK didn't need a projectile because he was a projectile. I guess we've come full circle.

 

[Locke 06]

Is it just me or does this now feel like a "hangout" for the regulars who post here. If you want to debate which projectile is best, I'd advise going to the general discussion. I'm no mod, but come on people. Is this really the place for it? Who really cares if I think you're overrating Mega Man's fsmash as a projectile and underrating lemons. nobody

Topic of discussion that I'm somewhat interested in: . The jumpless cyclone got a lot of people excited about this character, but NOBODY seems to be able to do it with the exception of Boss. If it's not actually possible by mere humans, how does that affect Luigi's competitive viability?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Topic of discussion that I'm somewhat interested in: . The jumpless cyclone got a lot of people excited about this character, but NOBODY seems to be able to do it with the exception of Boss. If it's not actually possible by mere humans, how does that affect Luigi's competitive viability?

I think even without jumpless cyclone he's still a very viable character who still struggles when pushed out or when he has to force his way in, but the difference here is that when he forces his way in he reaps some SERIOUS rewards from his D-Throw. He's a very polarized character in that regard but he's nothing to scoff at, and his movement has been improved compared to Brawl considerably.

Having to Jump -> Cyclone is a bit annoying but you can still mix up recovery options with it, as limited as they are, but his on-stage is vastly improved from before so there's a noticeable offset.

I think he's fine, good players will take him far.

 

[Ffamran]

To be fair, he just stated that he believes the MU is even whereas most Wii Fit mains believe it is in Diddy Kong's favor. That does not inspire much confidence from my end.

Well, it still means that Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS, Little Mac, and everyone else isn't broken like OP broken Brawl Meta Knight or bad broken like Brawl Ganondorf.

Villager is good against Diddy because he can camp Diddy but more importantly he's really good at gimping Diddy's recovery.

Examples, please. Like what moves and techniques?

 

[Flamecircle]

Examples, please. Like what moves and techniques?

Villager has the privilege of being banana proof due to pocket, and being able to go super deep to smack diddy's recovery.

 

[Antonykun]

Well, it still means that Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS, Little Mac, and everyone else isn't broken like OP broken Brawl Meta Knight or bad broken like Brawl Ganondorf.


Examples, please. Like what moves and techniques?

Villager has all variations of Balloon Trip as a powerful recovery so Villager can go deep not only that but all but one of her aerial are disjointed.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm not sure "best projectile" really means anything since these projectiles are often diverse moves that do very different things character to character and you have to think how it works into a gameplan. Like I think Pk Thunder is a better move than all of the "top projectiles" being mentioned, but no one just fires bolts at people using that move as projectile pressure it's used completely differently mostly about letting Ness dominate the space all around him and just kill people/move around at his discretion. If we define projectile just as anything that can be bounced back by Fox's reflector in any way, I suppose I'd list the top projectiles as Timber Counter, Thoron+, Pk Thunder, Snaring Aura Sphere, Mii Gunner's fair, and Villager's fair/bair with an honorable mention list of Yoshi eggs, ZSS paralyzer, Mega Man fsmash, and DH's Zig-Zag Can but that would seem to be a very different list than most people's and several of these moves are not really used for projectile pressure at all.

I'm currently of the opinion that Thunder >>> Thoron+ in most matchups.

You lose your best kill set up if you use Thoron+.

 

[Yokoblue]

If we talk about projectiles, there's no reason to categorize arcthunder and thoron as different ones since it's the same projectile with less or more charge. It's like differentiating Samus' full charge shot from the little ones.

As such I think Robin's thunder and its variations is probably the best projectile in the game if we only judge the projectile itself. Thunder/elthunder can keep opponents away briefly, catch people dashing and nullify other projectiles. Elthunder in particular can snipe people offstage, while arcthunder guarantees a follow-up grab and more for Robin, the slowest runner in the game, as well as applies great shield pressure. Lastly thoron is extremely quick for its range, does 20% of damage, and kills at around 120-140%.

With customs on, thoron+ is quite ridiculous but the charge time becomes an issue with that, so I might opt for snaring aura sphere there.

As someone who plays vs Yoshis a lot though, I do have to agree the egg is really versatile as well but it's mostly that good because of the follow-ups and cover Yoshi can use it for.

I think that its a good move, probably top 5-8 at least but one thing sucks for that projectile: Ending lag and linear.
There is a lot of room to get hit after a missed thoron and a little startup animation that can be the difference between a hit and a miss. I think the fact that the move can only be used in a straight line make it a worse than the tops projectile. I see the versatility in the use of different version, the problem is that you need to charge it to that version so your opponent see it coming. Once you charge the projectile, you can't go back to a better version suited for the situation. Also the fact that you can't use it after I think 21 *charge* and have to wait 8 sec. to recharge is a good weakness.
So the move has around 4 weakness that are mostly not found in other projectile.

I don't mean the move is bad... like I said its probably around top 5 top 8 best projectile in the game but not tops material imo.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Sonic is the best projectile in the game. It can hit you from anywhere, is completely safe on block, can't be reflected or absorbed and it comboes into itself for free at any time.

It is however, stopped cold by anything with a giant mouth.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Arcthunder overall is the better Thunder projectile of the four imo because of the multi-hit trapping, its slow-starting velocity similar to Melon, and mostly because it can be fired point-blank while only suffering the same lag as he would if he fired Thunder or Elthunder. It gives Robin another option at close range that forces an action, whether its shielding it, spotdodging it, etc. If someone's caught in Arcthunder from about a Robin length away, it leads to a grab or even a SH Uair/Fair if the spacing is perfect for it.

Thoron's really useful for roll and dodge catching or if a colossal error was a made, but Arcthunder can catch rolls too. Elthunder is great for offstage pressure and forcing a double jump, airdodge, or UpB, but Arcthunder can do that too. Thunder is to punish Robin for not waiting the half second he needed to get Elthunder, and nobody wants anything else to be like Thunder. What Thoron and Elthunder can do, they can REALLY do, but Arcthunder can also serve those functions on top of having its own forte.

Can't really say anything about comparing it to other projectiles though. Samus's Charge Shot has a similar purpose to Thoron but you're not seeing that being posited as a top projectile here after all.

 

[Gunla]

Topic of discussion that I'm somewhat interested in: . The jumpless cyclone got a lot of people excited about this character, but NOBODY seems to be able to do it with the exception of Boss. If it's not actually possible by mere humans, how does that affect Luigi's competitive viability?

Actually, Luigi gives me a lot of deja vu of characters like Spy in Team Fortress 2. They're characters that require a lot of skill or knowledge of how they work inside, out and inside out.

I think Luigi's going to be good, but it's a case where only players who are able to do absolutely everything possible at any given moment will really take him far.

Regarding PKT2, I'm gonna have to agree with Thinkaman on it. It's definitely a solid move, but not much more.

 

[Dre89]

Examples, please. Like what moves and techniques?

Well Villager can knock Diddy out of sideb with lloyd or disjointed aerials. As for upb, if Diddy has to use it recover he will normally drop low (you can actually just go off the bottom of the screen and still make it back if you charged it). Villager has really good tools to knock him out of his barrels even when he drops low, like his fsmash.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The thing with PKT is risk/reward. Sure it's very possible to challenge with a fair or something, but Ness can just wiggle the bolt around and if your attack hits the tail instead of the head you'll probably get hit, put into light hitstun, and then Ness will hit himself with the bolt to combo off that and kill you at an unreasonable percentage. That makes the risk-reward of challenging PKT like that seem very bad to me; you have to pretty much have a dead read on the situation before it makes sense given that your stock is on the line the second Ness fires that bolt (if you're at low% maybe your stock isn't on the line, but you take a truckload of damage even if you don't die). There are all kinds of tricky other things Ness can do too; he can jump off-stage, PKT and steer the bolt right at you, and then grab the ledge out of helpless before he's possible to punish which is honestly one of the harder ledge tricks to deal with on any character. He can do this set-up in the air low to the ground, ram himself into the stage maybe not even hit anything, and slam into the ground with full invincibility that puts him at remarkably little disadvantage for what a power move he just whiffed. The move's raw versatility is what sets it apart really; you are never quite sure on the other side whether he's going to take a little damage trying to hit you with it or steer around and try to kill you, and you have to respect everything at once which makes it a huge threat.

I could also just say that playing Shaky's Ness is a good lesson in Pk Thunder respect; he hits people with it way too much even the strongest other locals, and the way it actually represents a short term threat (super powerful kill move) as opposed to the longer term threat most projectiles are is what really makes me think of the move as an elite move. Of course, ranking moves is a bit silly in its own right since they all just exist in the context of the characters who may use them well or poorly and may have other weaknesses built in to mitigate the projectile's strength, but PKT is definitely a very, very good move.

 

[Kofu]

To talk more about specific charaters and what they're capable of, I'd like to bring up Captain Falcon. I think we're all aware of his move set and how it works, but what I'm interested in is how everyone feels he'll stack up in the long run. He hits hard, moves fast, and has a solid grab game. His recovery is a little lacking, but he has a great airspeed that means, uninterrupted, he'll probably return to the stage if he still has his double jump. He struggles with projectiles, but in general he can work around them with his speed.

My current general impression of him is that he'll struggle with the top tiers but will give practically everyone below him a hard time, much like Brawl Game & Watch. He's decently heavy, has impressive range, and certainly possesses greater kill power. It feels to me that if you can't deal with his speed and range, you're much out of luck. Oh, I'm fairly certain he has kill setups too.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If we are talking about projectiles, I think Fire Breath and Flamethrower are quite good. You would be surprised how much they shut down. They can even reflect gordos.

 

[Pyr]

If we are talking about projectiles, I think Fire Breath and Flamethrower are quite good. You would be surprised how much they shut down. They can even reflect gordos.

Well, to be fair, nearly everything reflects Gordos.