Character Competitive Impressions

[Chuva]

Time to learn the matchup properly and explore possible counters more.

It was a joke and yeah I agree with you. However, it should be noted that we've already been doing this for the past weeks. I don't think there is much more to learn in the Diddy matchup given how linear the character is.

As of now a handful of characters should be able to go even with Diddy, and maybe some even have favorable odds (looking forward to Pikachu and Megaman), but that perspective should not be absolute when in the end of the day Diddy's wins at high-level play are mostly based on his technical easiness coupled with generous rewards.

I don't think Diddy is an unstoppable force of non-sense, but in practice he still is the go-to safe bet to compete with and I'm eager to see people invest on new approaches rather than tunnel-vision the game this early. With that said, I'm quite glad my scene basically has no Diddy active.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So which characters realistically have a winning match up against Diddy right now?

Sonic I'd say

G&W's Dtilt apparently nullifies a lot of Diddy's game

I'd be willing to bet that most characters with swords give Diddy a hard time once they've figured out the match up.

 

[meleebrawler]

Glad to see the overreacting started early, hopefully it'll be out of your systems by Christmas so you can enjoy the holidays.

Did I overreact? Like, really, did I?

For what it's worth, if Diddy is anything, he's
not a character who invalidates other character's viabilities
in tournaments. Rather, he is a hurdle that most players
will need to learn to overcome, like most high-tiers.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's been brought up numerous times but Yoshi would do decent against diddy believe it or not.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I just want to take the time to enjoy the overreactions.

Its fun, watching Smash 4's 20XX going down. Do I think we will get to that point? No, but these first inklings after Samurai's column are causing quite an amusing stir.

I've been meaning to do some research on the Puff Diddy MU because Puff doesn't really get D Throw - Up air, I don't think, because of her floatiness and jumps, but I need to look into it more.

 

[Iron Kraken]

It's been brought up numerous times but Yoshi would do decent against diddy believe it or not.

I believe it, but not because of some kind of great match up advantage, but rather because Yoshi is just a beast. He doesn't need some kind of anti-Diddy trick.

GOD DANG IT why do people not see how amazing Yoshi is?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Because the only showings Yoshi is getting is in EU and Japan, which not many result threads or videos are taken of.

You gotta really dig for that info, or at least just ask Gheb for all that lol

 

[Iron Kraken]

Hold your horses!

Apparently in the same article, Sakurai states that he knows Diddy Kong is a problem.

And apparently the idea that he said there won't be any more balance patches at all is a mistranslation.

I'm not confirming anything, but we're going to need to wait for a full and complete translation before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hold your horses!

Apparently in the same article, Sakurai states that he knows Diddy Kong is a problem.

And apparently the idea that he said there won't be any more balance patches at all is a mistranslation.

I'm not confirming anything, but we're going to need to wait for a full and complete translation before jumping to conclusions.

Sakurai, taken out of context and mistranslated?

Unpossible.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sakurai, taken out of context and mistranslated?

Unpossible.

IMPOSSIBRU

Smooth Criminal

 

[ZeldaMaster]

You guys aren't giving Marth enough credit, I think that with proper spacing, Marth is still one of the best characters in the game.

 

[NotLiquid]

I figured there'd be no more real balance patches save for maybe when Mewtwo comes out.

The patch we got was clearly to bring the 3DS version up to speed with the unaccountable variables that would arise in the debugging process of the Wii U version. Expecting regular patches always felt a little bit silly to me.

Also I don't see Diddy Kong mentioned anywhere in the text but maybe that's just observation failing me.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Time to panic because we actually have to learn the matchups of characters that are slightly more powerful than our mains instead of whining for nerfs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox, Sonic, Yoshi, Pikachu, Sheik, Rosalina, Mii Brawler, Wario, Ike, Villager, ZSS and Shulk are characters I can see as potentially even or advantageous against Diddy Kong for various reasons. We'll just have to see how individual matchups go before we deem a character OP. Most of the characters I mentioned are still largely unexplored. Maybe even the Mario bros can do stuff against Diddy.

Lucario seemed to be a strong contender for becoming the #1 Diddy counter but the removal of VI with the patch makes it seem like he took quite a blow. I don't think he has that much of a chance to beat Diddy anymore, nor do I see a way for Lucario to be top tier right now.

 

[---]

I figured there'd be no more real balance patches save for maybe when Mewtwo comes out.

The patch we got was clearly to bring the 3DS version up to speed with the unaccountable variables that would arise in the debugging process of the Wii U version. Expecting regular patches always felt a little bit silly to me.

Also I don't see Diddy Kong mentioned anywhere in the text but maybe that's just observation failing me.

Same here. All I see is Mewtwo (seems to be reminiscing about him in Melee, and they don't have an estimate for release and making progress inch by inch) and Little Mac (doesn't use?) mentions. Nearly positive it says there will be more online patches, but I don't trust myself to check what it says after about the characters.

 

[Nobie]

In the article Sakurai mentions that online there was a character that was seemingly average but actually won a lot. And yet they didn't get near the number of complaints Little Mac garnered. He chooses to leave the identity of this character anonymous. Diddy sounds like a fit for this, but so do a ton of other characters.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Everything I said was hearsay from some guy in M2K's Twitch stream, not sure who it was, but he was conversing with M2K, Zero, and D1.

So yeah, I'm just resolved to have no opinion on anything until we get a complete and accurate translation.

 

[Dre89]

So which characters realistically have a winning match up against Diddy right now?

Villager might have one.

Not because he can pocket the nana, but because he can camp Diddy and force him to approach, and unlike other campers like DHD he actually has kill power. But the main thing is that Villager is really good at gimping Diddy's recovery. Most Diddy's will drop really low when recovering with upb to avoid getting hit out of the barrels, but Villager has a lot of tools like fsmash that are really good at doing just that.

I see Diddy eventually losing the #1 spot. People will learn to DI the dthrow and exploit his gimpable recovery. Also as the meta becomes more campy and defensive he'll have more trouble getting in on characters.

 

[Conda]

as the meta becomes more campy and defensive he'll have more trouble getting in on characters.

It's going the opposite direction. You see much more defensive play in FG than high level tournaments. # stock high level tournament matches go by fast, while 3 stock regular low-mid level matches can take forever due to overdefensive play (because it's the safer strategy to be effective at when you're at that skill level).

 

[Thinkaman]

It's going the opposite direction. You see much more defensive play in FG than high level tournaments. # stock high level tournament matches go by fast, while 3 stock regular low-mid level matches can take forever due to overdefensive play (because it's the safer strategy to be effective at when you're at that skill level).

Lag also subtracts from the cost/commitment of all defensive options.

 

[LiteralGrill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-FgJYphG4c

On the off chance anyone wants to see the reddit wii u tournament grand finals with the Game and Watch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hold your horses!

Apparently in the same article, Sakurai states that he knows Diddy Kong is a problem.

And apparently the idea that he said there won't be any more balance patches at all is a mistranslation.

I'm not confirming anything, but we're going to need to wait for a full and complete translation before jumping to conclusions.

Pretty much this, from what was translated it's not confirmed it ends with 1.0.4.

People are jumping the gun again.

 

[Yonder]

You guys aren't giving Marth enough credit, I think that with proper spacing, Marth is still one of the best characters in the game.

Lol not even close. He's not bad, but nothing is all that special about him aside from how scary low tippered F smash kills. There's just too many characters better than him this time around [Diddy, Yoshi, Rosalina, Lucario, Sonic, the list goes on.]

He's an upper mid/bottom high. But you shouldn't deny that Marth's reign of terror in the top tiers is over.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-FgJYphG4c

On the off chance anyone wants to see the reddit wii u tournament grand finals with the Game and Watch.

That final kill though.

Also G&W was absorbing the tail from Ness's PK Thunder, which is why the move itself was still around after.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Snaring Aura Sphere is not easy for Diddy to approach, and Lucario is very good already so I think that's probably a match-up that swings based on customs being legal (though it's winnable for both sides either way). I'm pretty sure Rosalina loses to Diddy either way, but with Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp it's pretty close while it's pretty distinctly Diddy's favor without (you're stripping most of Rosalina's ability to pressure Diddy from long ranges, and Monkey Flip does 13% and frequently kills synchronized Luma so playing those long ranges is very important to Rosalina in this match-up). It's actually funny because against most characters worse than her I feel like no customs is just a gift for Rosalina (she is happier not to deal with their stuff to counter her than to have her own improved options), but against Diddy in particular and against other top tiers to a lesser extent I really want my customs a lot with Rosalina and don't mind facing theirs as much. I'm just continually amazed with time just how much good work customs really do for balancing this game out.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Snaring Aura Sphere is not easy for Diddy to approach, and Lucario is very good already so I think that's probably a match-up that swings based on customs being legal (though it's winnable for both sides either way). I'm pretty sure Rosalina loses to Diddy either way, but with Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp it's pretty close while it's pretty distinctly Diddy's favor without (you're stripping most of Rosalina's ability to pressure Diddy from long ranges, and Monkey Flip does 13% and frequently kills synchronized Luma so playing those long ranges is very important to Rosalina in this match-up). It's actually funny because against most characters worse than her I feel like no customs is just a gift for Rosalina (she is happier not to deal with their stuff to counter her than to have her own improved options), but against Diddy in particular and against other top tiers to a lesser extent I really want my customs a lot with Rosalina and don't mind facing theirs as much. I'm just continually amazed with time just how much good work customs really do for balancing this game out.

Worth noting for Rosalina vs. Diddy (and also Peach) is that if they throw a banana/turnip while in range of an active Gravitational Pull, Rosalina takes ownership while the item's hitbox still overlaps them so they literally hit themselves in the face with their own projectile. Not likely to turn up in most matches, but relevant.

This also applies to Guardian Luma since it still draws in items, just not projectiles.

 

[Ffamran]

Did I miss the reasons why the Villager is a good MU against Diddy? Random throws: what about Wario, Wii Fit Trainer, and... Samus against Diddy?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Someone please explain to my why Yoshi is so good in this game?

 

[Morbi]

Someone please explain to my why Yoshi is so good in this game?

I am operating under the assumption that he is great because he has superb normals and aerials with your standard Smash attacks that KO relatively early. Decent dash attack, fast as lightning d-tilt (I think), combo-breaking n-air, Melee Fox's up-air, and gimp-central b-air. He also has a good recovery now (it stalls longer and there is more horizontal movement) WITH the double jump armor. I saw some game-play where the player was getting free follow-ups on egg-lay and that might KO off-stage at higher percents. Overall, he has really solid "buttons."

 

[madworlder]

Wii Fit Trainer ... against Diddy?

I play WFT against Diddy more than any other match, I think it's even, most WFT players seem to think it's Diddy's advantage. Sun Salutation beats Bananas, fair and Header can stop his approaches pretty well. Dsmash can go under Monkey Flip and punish hard. He's a little short, so it can be hard to grab or land nair (WFT's best combo starter). I don't think WFT is as bad as most people do (she's low-mid at worst, I swear) but I don't think for a second that it'd be worth picking her as a counter to Diddy.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Yoshis d tilt isn't that good compared to Diddy or warios. It's odd how no one plays yoshi if he's that Good.

 

[Morbi]

Yoshis d tilt isn't that good compared to Diddy or warios. It's odd how no one plays yoshi if he's that Good.

I can't remember which one of his tilts was the good OoS option, it might have been u-tilt or f-tilt or jab... lol, but I vaguely recall his u-tilt being like pretty much everyone's. But for the most part I agree, so many people talk about Yoshi being one of the top ten, but I have not seen too much on him either. Certainly not anything that stands out. That being said, when I play him, I feel invincible.

 

[Ffamran]

I play WFT against Diddy more than any other match, I think it's even, most WFT players seem to think it's Diddy's advantage. Sun Salutation beats Bananas, fair and Header can stop his approaches pretty well. Dsmash can go under Monkey Flip and punish hard. He's a little short, so it can be hard to grab or land nair (WFT's best combo starter). I don't think WFT is as bad as most people do (she's low-mid at worst, I swear) but I don't think for a second that it'd be worth picking her as a counter to Diddy.

Great Scott! See, sleepers, man. They will haunt you.

So, Donkey Kong - I don't remember the reasons -, Wii Fit Trainer, Fox - as noted in the anti-Diddy video -, the Villager - same as the dong expander -, Mega Man - same as the dong kong -, and the "top" tiers are all pretty much good against Diddy. It's like every time a character is considered broken or top tier, people start tearing them down. First it was Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac?, then Rosaluma, and now Diddy Kong.

Now we need some more feedback on other Wii Fit Trainer players, Wario, and Samus.

 

[Morbi]

Great Scott! See, sleepers, man. They will haunt you.

So, Donkey Kong - I don't remember the reasons -, Wii Fit Trainer, Fox - as noted in the anti-Diddy video -, the Villager - same as the dong expander -, Mega Man - same as the dong kong -, and the "top" tiers are all pretty much good against Diddy. It's like every time a character is considered broken or top tier, people start tearing them down. First it was Sheik or Zero Suit Samus, Little Mac?, then Rosaluma, and now Diddy Kong.

Now we need some more feedback on other Wii Fit Trainer players, Wario, and Samus.

To be fair, he just stated that he believes the MU is even whereas most Wii Fit mains believe it is in Diddy Kong's favor. That does not inspire much confidence from my end.

 

[madworlder]

It's a big assumption for me to make that the matchup is even- I know I am not a competitive-level WFT, but I think that a competitive-level WFT and a competitive-level Diddy will go even. I know the Diddy I fight regularly is better than most For Glory Diddys, but I'm not even sure if he's on what I'd consider a competitive level. As I said- WFT is definitely not a counter pick to Diddy. At best, she's even with him.

 

[Yokoblue]

Someone please explain to my why Yoshi is so good in this game?

Played Yoshi since release:
Basically what make him really good is that 90% of his moves are great. He has one of the top 2 best projectile in the game. Kill really early with smashes and doesn't have a lot of lag in most of his attack (they actually added more lag in the last patch and hes still damn fast). He has one of the best spike in the game and with egg throw, he can set it up. He also has 2-3 almost true combo. (egg to fair, egg lay to down B, grab release to jab and dash)

Yoshi is one of the best character at recovery (not distance but overall) because he has egg to protect him, super armor on 2nd jump and momentum shift with tongue. That makes him almost impossible to gimp. Hes one of the fastest character in the air and all his aerial are good. 2 of them kills early, the 3rd one kills a full shield or does around 35 damage unblocked and the other is a multi hit first 2 hit spike and 3rd knockback a lot....He also has a command grab for mix up.

Thats why Yoshi is good... Weakness ? He can be footstooled to death. But like I said previously, hes one of the hardest character to footstool in the game. His grab has a big lag if missed but that's about it.

TLDR: Yoshi is a little bit over mid weight, has kill setup, great aerials, a spike, a command grab, hit like a tank and kills early, nair that get out of combos and hes one of the fastest overall character in the game. He also has almost no weakness.

 

[Morbi]

Played Yoshi since release:
Basically what make him really good is that 90% of his moves are great. He has one of the top 2 best projectile in the game. Kill really early with smashes and doesn't have a lot of lag in most of his attack (they actually added more lag in the last patch and hes still damn fast). He has one of the best spike in the game and with egg throw, he can set it up. He also has 2-3 almost true combo. (egg to fair, egg lay to down B, grab release to jab and dash)

Yoshi is one of the best character at recovery (not distance but overall) because he has egg to protect him, super armor on 2nd jump and momentum shift with tongue. That makes him almost impossible to gimp. Hes one of the fastest character in the air and all his aerial are good. 2 of them kills early, the 3rd one kills a full shield or does around 35 damage unblocked and the other is a multi hit first 2 hit spike and 3rd knockback a lot....He also has a command grab for mix up.

Thats why Yoshi is good... Weakness ? He can be footstooled to death. But like I said previously, hes one of the hardest character to footstool in the game. His grab has a big lag if missed but that's about it.

Egg combos into f-air?! I did not even realize that that was possible. Just wondering, if you believe that egg is one of the "top 2" best projectiles in the game, what is the other?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Egg combos into f-air?! I did not even realize that that was possible. Just wondering, if you believe that egg is one of the "top 2" best projectiles in the game, what is the other?

 

[Kofu]

Sheik's Needles are probably the other best projectile in the game. They're quick, induce stun, and when charged are hard to turn against Sheik.

 

[Dre89]

Did I miss the reasons why the Villager is a good MU against Diddy? Random throws: what about Wario, Wii Fit Trainer, and... Samus against Diddy?

Villager is good against Diddy because he can camp Diddy but more importantly he's really good at gimping Diddy's recovery.