Character Competitive Impressions

[Jabejazz]

Super Timber is most definitely tankier than other variants (50ish% or so).

But all aspects of the move are so terribly laggy, I don't think that ludicrous reward for landing the axe of the tree hit is worth the risk.

 

[Rockaphin]

Super Timber is most definitely tankier than other variants (50ish% or so).

But all aspects of the move are so terribly laggy, I don't think that ludicrous reward for landing the axe of the tree hit is worth the risk.

I just watched some videos, the only use I could see would be for edge guarding and the large tree pop-up. Other than that, the move is too laggy like you said.

Sadly, I can't really experiment with custom moves so I'm mostly limited to videos.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I just watched some videos, the only use I could see would be for edge guarding and the large tree pop-up. Other than that, the move is too laggy like you said.

Sadly, I can't really experiment with custom moves so I'm mostly limited to videos.

why cant u earn them?

 

[Rockaphin]

why cant u earn them?

I'm having a hard time unlocking certain custom moves for characters. After multiple attempts, I eventually get tired of replaying single player modes. I finally unlocked Counter Timber.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm having a hard time unlocking certain custom moves for characters. After multiple attempts, I eventually get tired of replaying single player modes. I finally unlocked Counter Timber.

ah okay its ur limitation. i thought itvwas somthin to do with ur game.

alsa smash run was the most fun way to grind customs. smash tour just takes too long.

 

[NAKAT]

I don't think Fox is top 4. The character is really good but not top 4. Diddy is better. Yoshi is better. Pikachu, Sheik, Rosie and Sonic are also very good to the point where I'd say that Fox is probably not top 5, though definitely top 10.

As far as early matchup impression goes, here are my [somewhat conservative] opinions:

- Fox loses 4/6 or higher: Yoshi
- Around even [between 45/55 and 55/45]: Falcon, Diddy Kong*, Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff, Little Mac*, Lucario, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, Pikachu*, Rosalina*, Sheik, Shulk, Sonic*, Villager, Wario, ZSS


* = these are probably 55/45 in the opponent's favor.

Not sure but probably even[ish]: Greninja [I haven't seen this character after the patch at all anymore], [Dark] Pit, Mii Brawler, Peach
Not sure but probably in Fox' favor: Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Wondering how @ NAKAT feels about these numbers.

Yoshi might be even or beat Fox 55:45. Others that beat him are Little Mac, Ness, Rob (Maybe)

Fox beats Shulk, Falcon, Ike, Puff, Lucina, Marth, Sonic, Villager, Wario, Zss, Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, DHD, Ganondorf, DDD, Link, Mega Man, MK, Mr. G&W, Pac-Man, Robin, Samus, Toon Link Doc, Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Even with Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Olimar, Pits, Kirby

I would give numbers but we need more time and I need more EXP.

Don't take this as law people

 

[NAKAT]

Fox, Pikachu and Lucario fall mostly short against Sheik and Diddy? Neither as characters nor in the direct matchups is that the case. ZSS and Rosie also do fine against at least one of them [Diddy] if not against both. Greninja is kind of in the air for me because I haven't seen the character at all anymore after the patch. Oddly enough, Yoshi might be the only one who seriously struggles against both characters but since he ***** everybody else it's probably not a big deal.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that you're pretty off here tbqh. Especially Sheik is nowhere near as good anymore as a lot of people seem to think. She has a number of very different matchups post-patch. I promise you that Sheik will not win any moderately stacked regional tourneys until a new patch comes that nerfs Diddy, Sonic, Yoshi, Fox and Pikachu. And keep in mind that the invitational tournament that Mr r won with Sheik was the pre-patch version ... some people got that mixed up.

Diddy has to be considered the best character at this point. However, neither does that mean that a patch is required to have another character potentially take that spot [though I'll be the first to agree that his uair needs to be fixed - no more than that though] nor is it sensible to put him in a tier of his own right now. Did you know that the Fox players Megafox and Nakat have positive records against their local high and top level Diddy players? The majority of people who complain about Diddy are most certainly unaware of such facts.

Jtails and I are 3-0. Pocket Diddy's and other Diddy's get obliterated as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

For all the ******** about Diddy, we should start calling his UAir the BGPK - The Banana God Peel Kick.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, a Game and Watch CPU taught me something today. His downtilt has an air box that can stall you in the air. It seems it doesn't pop you up, just holds you there unable to move. Even more fun, it combos into Hammer (and the CPU even got a 9 to seal the deal).

Any character that doesn't get the ledge just right may be subject to easy combos. I need to test it more, but it may be capable of screwing up ledge snaps too.

EDIT: If the character is in helpless it may be an inescapable combo that does DAMAGE as well, the windbox does DAMAGE!!! You can try to attack out of it, but a clever Game and Watch can probable maneuver so you can't hit it and keep you in the box till the kill, even not in helpless. Woah is this cool!

Edit Edit: Even better, this can screw up and block many aproaches in the air while doing damage and seems to be safe as far as I know.

@ Shaya I now 100% understand what you mean by him have "Jank". This could boost him up a good ways if no one can come at him from the air without eating hits.

 

[sunset_raven]

Yoshi might be even or beat Fox 55:45. Others that beat him are Little Mac, Ness, Rob (Maybe)

Fox beats Shulk, Falcon, Ike, Puff, Lucina, Marth, Sonic, Villager, Wario, Zss, Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, DHD, Ganondorf, DDD, Link, Mega Man, MK, Mr. G&W, Pac-Man, Robin, Samus, Toon Link Doc, Charizard, Doc, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Palutena, WFT, Zelda

Even with Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Olimar, Pits, Kirby

I would give numbers but we need more time and I need more EXP.

Don't take this as law people

@ NAKAT Olimar, really? With all the talk that he was trash... Did the patch change his pikmin AI that much?

 

[Radical Larry]

(This man right here knows that Fox can't beat Link, Falcon or Toon Link)

Ignoring the parenthesis for a moment, let me tell you guys something I found out (hopefully discovered). Whenever you use Ganon's Down Special 2, Wizard's Dropkick, right at the edge of the stage, it cancels out completely with no landing lag animation whatsoever. It is specifically at the edge of the stage, too.

No landing lag animation, and auto-cancelling the attack into multiple new tactics. Hopefully that hasn't been discovered yet.

 

[Luigi player]

(This man right here knows that Fox can't beat Link, Falcon or Toon Link)

Ignoring the parenthesis for a moment, let me tell you guys something I found out (hopefully discovered). Whenever you use Ganon's Down Special 2, Wizard's Dropkick, right at the edge of the stage, it cancels out completely with no landing lag animation whatsoever. It is specifically at the edge of the stage, too.

No landing lag animation, and auto-cancelling the attack into multiple new tactics. Hopefully that hasn't been discovered yet.

This works with his normal downB as well, and works since Brawl.

 

[HeavyLobster]

(This man right here knows that Fox can't beat Link, Falcon or Toon Link)

Ignoring the parenthesis for a moment, let me tell you guys something I found out (hopefully discovered). Whenever you use Ganon's Down Special 2, Wizard's Dropkick, right at the edge of the stage, it cancels out completely with no landing lag animation whatsoever. It is specifically at the edge of the stage, too.

No landing lag animation, and auto-cancelling the attack into multiple new tactics. Hopefully that hasn't been discovered yet.

Are you talking about Wizkick Canceling? That's been in since Brawl, works for all of Ganon's Down-B variants, and has been both known and implemented into Ganon's game for years.
Edit: 'd

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ NAKAT Olimar, really? With all the talk that he was trash... Did the patch change his pikmin AI that much?

Fwiw, I had Olimar as evenin my list of Fox' matchup numbers. Olimar's not that bad.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking on Fox, what do you think about him vs. Falco - you know me, I have to bring Falco into the conversation.

Seriously, though, they seem kind of even with Fox's speed giving him a lead. Still, it's kind of been like this in previous games (2) where Falco and Fox were close to each other on the tier lists. It was never polarizing.

Man, is it like searching for Shambhala when looking for Falco videos. It's easy to look for everyone else, but it's like looking for a freaking unicorn when you're looking for Falco. Don't blame me if there's like only 4 good videos on Falco.

 

[HeroMystic]

Speaking on Fox, what do you think about him vs. Falco

Falco wins 90:10 because he has the better voice actor.

 

[Radical Larry]

This works with his normal downB as well, and works since Brawl.

(And now this guy on your left (me) sounds like a total ass)

Well, I honestly didn't know if it was already discovered or not. But listen, it's most effective with Wizard's Dropkick, obviously, since it has some great horizontal range.

And looking back, here's the best setups for Ganondorf:

Power:
Warlock Punch, Flame Wave, Wizard's Foot, Dark Fists

Range:
Warlock Blade, Flame Chain, Wizard's Assault, Dark Vault

Recovery:
Warlock Blade, Flame Chain, Wizard's Dropkick, Dark Fists

Speed:
Warlock Thrust, Flame Wave, Wizard's Foot, Dark Dive

KO:
Warlock Punch, Flame Wave, Wizard's Dropkick, Dark Fists

 

[HeavyLobster]

(And now this guy on your left (me) sounds like a total ***)

It really sucks that Navi won't give you Link mains any information on Ganondorf.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've seen a lot of previous conversations about Counter Timber(still wish there were some good videos out there), but what about Super Timber? Slower yes, but I would think that the reward would be relatively high. Does it take more hits than the standard Timber?

It's 50 HP, and everything is WAY slower. The axe does 16% instead of 14%.

Not worth it.

Are you talking about Wizkick Canceling? That's been in since Brawl, works for all of Ganon's Down-B variants, and has been both known and implemented into Ganon's game for years.

The magic of Wizard's dropkick is that the ledge cancel distance is consistent on-hit vs not.

And looking back, here's the best setups for Ganondorf:

Check the custom special move set discussion on the Ganon forums. The sets you listed are really dubious.

Personally, I use 2122 or 2322 in every matchup. Blade vs Thrust is pretty much preference.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, Mr. Game and Watch's downtilt. Gave it testing and found some cool stuff relevant to matchups:

• It knocks away all of Pac-Man's thrown items. (This makes Pac-Man have to approach )
• It also stops all pikmin in mid air, damaging them too. (So Olimar has to approach)
• Flings R.O.B.'s Gyro Up (so if you do good and bucket lasers you're safe to wait on him)
• Gets rid of WFT's soccer ball (so bucket those sun salutations and make her approach)
• Flings Link and Toon Link's bombs
• Fling's Bowser Jr.'s minikoopa

Some lesser but still curious things:

• Also bounces up Robin's Sword and Book
• Does NOT bounce turnips for some reason
• The items left after Greninja's counter will also pop up
• Will break Diddy's Peanuts

If used right, this move will fling someone up when they approach as well, the air box also seems to have a sweet spot where it will send folks higher as well. So now it's even more dangerous to jump when you are near Game and Watch. The hitbox goes out from slightly in front of downtilt and slightly above him. If you are in helpless state the most you can do is maybe fast fall, and then you guarantee him a combo.

So, I think maybe we really HAVE been sleeping on a character for once. If someone could figure this out even better it's make it tough to approach him safely that'd make him potent at least.

 

[Deathcarter]

So, Mr. Game and Watch's downtilt. Gave it testing and found some cool stuff relevant to matchups:

• It knocks away all of Pac-Man's thrown items. (This makes Pac-Man have to approach )
• It also stops all pikmin in mid air, damaging them too. (So Olimar has to approach)
• Flings R.O.B.'s Gyro Up (so if you do good and bucket lasers you're safe to wait on him)
• Gets rid of WFT's soccer ball (so bucket those sun salutations and make her approach)
• Flings Link and Toon Link's bombs
• Fling's Bowser Jr.'s minikoopa

Some lesser but still curious things:

• Also bounces up Robin's Sword and Book
• Does NOT bounce turnips for some reason
• The items left after Greninja's counter will also pop up
• Will break Diddy's Peanuts

If used right, this move will fling someone up when they approach as well, the air box also seems to have a sweet spot where it will send folks higher as well. So now it's even more dangerous to jump when you are near Game and Watch. The hitbox goes out from slightly in front of downtilt and slightly above him.

So, I think maybe we really HAVE been sleeping on a character for once. If someone could figure this out even better it's make it tough to approach him safely that'd make him potent at least.

Great work. I'm curious if G&W's d-tilt affect Diddy's bananas as well?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Great work. I'm curious if G&W's d-tilt affect Diddy's bananas as well?

Sadly no, it seems to MAYBE destroy them SOMETIMES but only with the actual hitbox for the move. If I didn't list a projectile, it doesn't do anything to it. I mean we tested Greninja's counter stuff, we were thorough! Hopefully we'll have a video recorded tomorrow to show it off too.

 

[Kofu]

So, Mr. Game and Watch's downtilt. Gave it testing and found some cool stuff relevant to matchups:

• It knocks away all of Pac-Man's thrown items. (This makes Pac-Man have to approach )
• It also stops all pikmin in mid air, damaging them too. (So Olimar has to approach)
• Flings R.O.B.'s Gyro Up (so if you do good and bucket lasers you're safe to wait on him)
• Gets rid of WFT's soccer ball (so bucket those sun salutations and make her approach)
• Flings Link and Toon Link's bombs
• Fling's Bowser Jr.'s minikoopa

Some lesser but still curious things:

• Also bounces up Robin's Sword and Book
• Does NOT bounce turnips for some reason
• The items left after Greninja's counter will also pop up
• Will break Diddy's Peanuts

If used right, this move will fling someone up when they approach as well, the air box also seems to have a sweet spot where it will send folks higher as well. So now it's even more dangerous to jump when you are near Game and Watch. The hitbox goes out from slightly in front of downtilt and slightly above him. If you are in helpless state the most you can do is maybe fast fall, and then you guarantee him a combo.

So, I think maybe we really HAVE been sleeping on a character for once. If someone could figure this out even better it's make it tough to approach him safely that'd make him potent at least.

This is good info to have, I hadn't thought of using it to snuff physical projectiles. This'll help him to be harder to camp. I've already used it to mess with people's jumps (it's hilarious to use against helpless characters). Little Mac in particular needs to be careful about throwing out Jolt Haymaker. If we catch him with DTilt during the early part of the move, he flies harmlessly over our heads. If he's close enough to the ledge he flies off and dies. I assume you can do this with other recoveries as well.

Basically I thought this move had potential I just wasn't sure how to go about applying it. This helps a lot! It's a lot laggier on cooldown than in Brawl, but if it was any faster it would be absolutely absurd (not like it's not already). Since I don't have anyone to test with, Capps, could you see how this interacts with various Side-B and Up-B moves? It should manipulate momentum pretty effectively.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Kofu I would love to! When we go to film tomorrow I'll see what fun ways we can fling people to their deaths!

(I do know you can catch a Jigglypuff using Rollout in the air, which was funny for us. Just juggling her as she got faster and faster.)

 

[Nobie]

Is Mii Swordfighter really that hopeless? Usually even when a character is bottom tier there are at least people rallying behind them, or people trying to champion that low-tier pride, but I decided to take a look at the Mii Swordfighter subforum and it basically looks like 90% sad and dejected folks (aside from @ san. ). I can practically picture the single tear rolling down their cheeks.

 

[Morbi]

Is Mii Swordfighter really that hopeless? Usually even when a character is bottom tier there are at least people rallying behind them, or people trying to champion that low-tier pride, but I decided to take a look at the Mii Swordfighter subforum and it basically looks like 90% sad and dejected folks (aside from @ san. ). I can practically picture the single tear rolling down their cheeks.

I am not sure to be honest, I have heard a lot of bad things about Mii Swordfighter; however, I never really got around to testing the Miis extensively on the Wii U version (or the 3DS version, but I tried them out for a couple of hours). Brawler was my favorite and Gunner was fun. That being said, everyone is confident that Swordfighter is bottom, it is almost unanimous. It is probably fallacious, but I might just believe the majority in regards to Swordfighters viability. It made me curious though, so I am going to test him out and see what options he has and whatnot.

One of my friends was really excited for Mii Swordfighter and they made their personal Mii the Swordfighter but gave up after a couple of matches. Not really a good sign. Meh.

 

[Gunla]

I play a Tall/Mid Weight Sword Fighter on occasion, but have yet to use it in a tourney.

Swordfighter just got the bad end of the stick, yeah?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I play a Tall/Mid Weight Sword Fighter on occasion, but have yet to use it in a tourney.

Swordfighter just got the bad end of the stick, yeah?

if he is not small and nimble he sucks. well..thats a very common metality though that i disadree with.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

As a G&W main who has been placing top 5 in the area, my two cents.

Although it does provide a nice little wall on specific projectiles, it's usefulness offensively is being overstated imo. This is a tiny little windbox that most certainly will not block anything long ranged, and it's windbox does little but temporarily disorient your opponent. Anyone used to G&W shouldn't act too surprised and should recover quickly. It could be used to mess with recoveries, but anyone aiming directly for G&W and not the ledge is suicidal.

 

[Asdioh]

Who even has an emotional attachment to freaking Mii characters? They're so dumb

I'm still mad they exist

and equipment. And the endless grind for custom moves.

Anyway I would imagine that's part of the reason. Low tiers in previous games at least had ... you know, video games people loved.

 

[Morbi]

Who even has an emotional attachment to freaking Mii characters? They're so dumb

I'm still mad they exist

and equipment. And the endless grind for custom moves.

Anyway I would imagine that's part of the reason. Low tiers in previous games at least had ... you know, video games people loved.

It depends on who the Mii character is; if it is your mother for instance, there is probably more of an emotional attachment to her over Diddy Kong. Maybe, just maybe.

In regards to low tier warriors, it was my impression that they mained low tier characters because they preferred low tier characters. I had no idea that they had to be "attached" to the character.

As a G&W main who has been placing top 5 in the area, my two cents.

Although it does provide a nice little wall on specific projectiles, it's usefulness offensively is being overstated imo. This is a tiny little windbox that most certainly will not block anything long ranged, and it's windbox does little but temporarily disorient your opponent. Anyone used to G&W shouldn't act too surprised and should recover quickly. It could be used to mess with recoveries, but anyone aiming directly for G&W and not the ledge is suicidal.

So basically it is better on paper than in practice?

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah. Just going to point out that this mii swordfighter sucks talk deters people from testing him out for more than a week, which is not long enough to really delve into a new moveset.

Pretty sure at least half of the people who have declared him as "the worst in the game" are just spouting what they have heard from other people. Whether he is or he isn't, you're harming his development by spreading that idea without any solid experience with the character.

Edit: Most people play low tiers because they enjoy the character. Not to prove a point. Enjoyment of a character can come from an emotional attachment or an attachment to the moveset. I'm sure there are some people who enjoyed playing Brawl Ganondorf because he had ridiculous KO power despite his many issues. Also, Ganondorf is a classic Nintendo villain.

 

[san.]

I think he has enough tools to be viable. There's a lot people don't really know about him. He gets Mario's cape and some decent projectiles, which helps him be a little more flexible. His normals are good, but you can really only follow up/combo properly with the short Miis. The tall ones are already outgunned by the likes of Ike and medium by the likes of Marth and Shulk. The short ones, however, have a pretty interesting niche and play out quite well since they have little enough landing lag to combo and are really fast.

Tall ones are only decent because their dash grab is really good (for all Miis) which allows for some pretty effective gimmicks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think he has enough tools to be viable. There's a lot people don't really know about him. He gets Mario's cape and some decent projectiles, which helps him be a little more flexible. His normals are good, but you can really only follow up/combo properly with the short Miis. The tall ones are already outgunned by the likes of Ike and medium by the likes of Marth and Shulk. The short ones, however, have a pretty interesting niche and play out quite well since they have little enough landing lag to combo and are really fast.

Tall ones are only decent because their dash grab is really good (for all Miis) which allows for some pretty effective gimmicks.

I thought tall Swordfighter was preferable for extra disjoint and being able to utilt through platforms?

 

[deepseadiva]

Since he's not usable online, which is how 90% of the player base is basing their opinions, I figured most people would have a low opinion of her.

 

[san.]

You can just uair through platforms for a 16% aerial on shield that combos, or even dair with high shield poking properties.

 

[NAKAT]

@ NAKAT Olimar, really? With all the talk that he was trash... Did the patch change his pikmin AI that much?

I actually think Olimar is underrated as of now.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think throughout the past 80 pages I've said.
~ All of Swordfighters aerials are disjointed, which is a decent trait
~ Its the swordsman archetype....with a cape,
~ Chakram & Shuriken are redundant together, but on the tl;dr at least he's got projectiles.
~ Feels like a poormans Link in general,
~ D-throw is decent but terrible damage.
~ U-air is actually pretty good.

If he's at the bottom I imagine he will not be there alone.
I personally think the Cape is near mandatory on him, because otherwise why even play him, and I ask that honestly. His down B power thrust is decent as well, 13% damage. Basically he gets two key things I feel other people don't replicate. His Down B Cape and his Down B power thrust. Other members in his disjointed archetype do not exactly replicate this.

His Up special 2 is like Firefox, it's decent. Up special 1 is poop, Up special 3 is arguable, I prefer 2.

I think in the end if people put the time in him, he'll pay off in that Cape will let him win matchups theoreotically for the same reason it aids Mario. Except in exchange for marios speed you'll get range. It's questionable right now if Short is the way to go with him, because range is important, and at short range he can't even utilt battlefields platforms.
A lot more play has to be done with him, and I planned to do more homework on him but frankly I'm having less time during this holiday season.
Perhaps @ san. will continue to monitor him, there are a couple of players interested him on Smashboards at the very least, but its a terribly small group.

I don't think he is as good as the other swordsman, but that doesn't mean he is the worst in the game. However it is "safe" for now to put him there for a couple of reasons (no results, community perception, an abundance of questionable things in his moveset, his throw game outside of D-throw and maybe mid stock u-throw is overall ass, etc).

I've also been trying to delve more into Kirby or was before things came up, he can't approach and he is generally the same as brawl but I feel he does rather well against the perceived upper echelon, it's the less discussed members of the cast that bully him.

On top of that there is little Link talk, and even less Toon Link. I bring this up because I feel that Sword Fighter won't rise higher then them, and it be nice to contrast Links strengths with him, but I wont be looking deeper personally into Link any time soon.

 

[Gunla]

My setup for Swordfighter is 3121 or 3122 (whichever is the cape, I don't really remember at the moment). Cape is an excellent move for Swordfighter and Up Special 2 is the best one of the 3 imo.

I prefer using the tall because that range is really good for me, and the mid weight balances strength and speed.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

cape is 2, power thrust is 3. Up 2 is the Firefox copycat