Character Competitive Impressions

[KuroganeHammer]

And he's safer on block due to his tippers having extra shield stun, to the point where Marth has MANY more safer options than Lucina in practically every situation. Marth also can kill earlier, and arguably can set up juggles and build damage better if played correctly.

Marth is undeniably a SIGNIFICANTLY better character than Lucina, almost definitely more than 2-3 spots on a tier list depending on who theyre around. Id be willing to say, Marth is probably and entire tier above Lucina even.

I know you're trying to educate me but i already know, while I think Marth is better, not by an entire tier no.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If I were trying to educate you Id go into detail, I was pretty sure you were aware, I was just trying to say it in a way that emphasized that Marth is just straight up a lot better.

 

[Shaya]

I'm curious, how does Falcon seem out of place to you? Relative to the other characters in this game he's got really good tools for most situations and he's pretty brutal once he gets the advantage. His only real weakness is recovery and his defensive options are somewhat limited. He's as good as he was in Melee compared to that cast vs this cast imo.

He doesn't seem abusive nor overpowering in what he does. He's a mobile heavy hitter that takes a considerable amount of precision. But I think you covered it all yourself "good tools for most situations" "weakness is recovery and his defensive options are limited". So when I say out of place, I mean from being considered a top 5 character, and personally not thinking he's in the cut for that broad "high tier", but he could very well be the end of one that's cleaned up.

I look at Falcon and just think "complications with every short/hard to grab character". And there are a lot of those in this game.
Every character with sex kick aerials can also be annoying for him, disrupting a lot of everything he tries (Ness nair please). I cannot see him being top tier this game.

 

[Chuva]

Is it time we consolidate in our perceived top 5?

 

[|RK|]

Hey, is there anywhere to comment on smaller livestreamed tournaments?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Not in mine.
At the risk of looking like a fool.

Diddy, Brawler, Shulk, Robin, Pikachu, Sheik is my current 6.
Granted this is probably significantly different from what is expected and I have some reservations but might as well expose myself.

#Rebel.

Hey, is there anywhere to comment on smaller livestreamed tournaments?

Tournament discussion and Tournament results would be my assumption, but I don't see any reason why you can't say what you took away from a tourney here.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I really dont think Robin is anywhere near top 5.

 

[|RK|]

I meant to comment as the tournament went on, but I guess here will do for now; thanks!

I'm watching this (almost finished now) online tournament, and sadly, the finals came down to Diddy vs Diddy (much to my - and other spectators' chagrin). If anything, I really think that Diddy is probably the most important matchup to learn for those of you that are going to Apex.

(Side note, losers finals last match is Falcon vs Mario)

 

[NairWizard]

Not in mine.
At the risk of looking like a fool.

Diddy, Brawler, Shulk, Robin, Pikachu, Sheik is my current 6.
Granted this is probably significantly different from what is expected and I have some reservations but might as well expose myself.
.

You're less unorthodox than you think!

Mine (without order) is without customs.

Only difference between yours and mine is Brawler. I don't think that he's top tier without customs.

With customs, throw in into the mix, move up even higher, and take out . I don't think he makes the customs-legal cut, personally.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Only difference between yours and mine is Brawler. I don't think that he's top tier without customs.

I have to agree with this. No Customs Brawler is much much much worse. You essentially take away his main kill option and his recovery. The rest of his moveset practically relies on the fact that he can kill with his up b. Without Helicopter Kick and Feint jump he drops from top 3 to like Low-Mid.

The tier list that they put them in now is being generous imo.

 

[Chuva]

I dunno, if we go by tournaments Ness keeps getting good results. His reported recovery problems barely seems to matter in most relevant matchups (except Rosalina, maybe Pikachu), he has the same easy kill setups that makes Diddy so good, his options out of dash are great, his aerials hitboxes are non-sense, and he can easily wall a lot of character just with Fair, Nair, PK Fire and sometimes PKT juggles.

Also surprised how you guys didn't even mention Rosalina. I don't think the nerfs impaired her that much, she still outranges most of the cast and Luma still does Luma stuff.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Im watching the same thing Joker. I had seriously qualms with Mario V Mac, given that Mario didn't use cape and flopped the FLUDD gimps. I want to be humble, but he threw that.

as far as Robin, he is one of those reservations however Im looking at it and I know popular consensus would probably be Yoshi/Rosalina, some will say ZSS and some will say Lucario or even Sonic but I can't ride that train. If it wasn't Robin it would've probably been Fox. I was going to type up this whole thing about Robin but im probably gonna turn in to my bed and well Im still on the fence about it. Like I said before when I was breaking down the reddit list. Top 5 is heavily contested so how it will really fair is up in the air.

As far as Ness? No not really. B-throw is gross, but earnestly everyone fights Ness and then goes "**** B-throw percents". It's cray to me given half the time you know he's fishing. Diddy has similar grab threat due to U-air, Shulk can Shield up, and if he's in rage then he can even kill Ness from Shield. Arc Fires stage control also slows down the pace of the grab chase. I can't really (at the moment) make an argument for Brawler/Sheik vs Ness and that's fine however in general I say they perform better.

As far as Customs.
I don't believe in a customs off ruleset for Mii's I think is bs. I think customs off in general is the wrong choice but I understand the reasoning, but given the reasoning I believe in not applying to Mii's I don't apply it to them. Brawlers still better than Yoshi to me. So relative to everyone else being in default yeah Brawler, even with Customs active man is such a threat, and it's not just Piston punch, his kit is dirty. If he ever lands an F-smash on you, laggy as it is, you don't need lightning to know that stock is gone. That move is disgustingly powerful wtf is in that crap? His u-air strings that lead into his Up-B's where 2 of them are kick ass? I haven't tried Up 1 with U-air to see if that strings but so far the only viable 1 specials are Shot put and Onslaught. Unless im being overly critical of Soaring Axe.

 

[NairWizard]

I am conflicted about Ness. I think that he has very polarized matchups. He's definitely top 10, just not sure that he's top 5. His recovery is a bigger weakness than people realize; nobody but Nairo is really taking advantage of it yet (and then only because Nairo is so good at teching, like dang). FOW and Nakat are both very good players, so they might be making him seem better than he is. I definitely think that the characters I named (with the exception of possibly Robin) are better, though.

edit: When I think about it, Ness is probably better than Robin without customs. With customs is probably a different story. So sure, I've changed my mind. Ness for top 5.

I think Rosalina is probably 8th or 9th. The patch was huge; if anything, I was underrating its effect previously. The nerf to Luma was really big for the other side of her matchups, and there was one big nerf that I didn't even think mattered but now have a completely different perspective on: her n-air. This move used to singlehandedly win matchups, but its hitboxes and damage have been shrunk/reduced. I believe that she loses many matchups post-patch that she didn't lose before, such as the Diddy matchup.

The top 10-20 aren't *that* different though. I wouldn't be surprised to see anyone in that group get really good results in tourney. I think Fox is only like 15th, and he'll probably still get top 5 at Apex somehow.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you guys are talking about results, why isnt anyone bringing up Sonic?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

F Tier:
(-3)

Thoughts everyone?

While I know the list is by no means accurate, it's always depressing to see her on the lowest spots of these lists mainly because her potential is not known, or shown by many. As much as I want to go on and on, I don't think I can right now, but the least I can say is that she'd be decently in mid tier at best if anything. The game is still young, and I hope Palutena will eventually get more attention, and I can explain more soon.

 

[Browny]

Dat S-tier taunt tho

 

[Chuva]

Ness recovery is problematic, but I don't think it is to the point where it's a match-up defining weakness. He still has his godly double jump and can contest your gimp approaches with Fair, or even try to kill you with Uair if you whiff the gimp.

I must concede on Rosalina's Nair nerf, but that's just one of her many good buttons. Jab, Ftilt, Uair and Bair are unchanged, Dtilt and Fair are still good at what they do. As for the Luma nerf, while significant, didn't change any of Luma's properties other than anti-throw shenanigans (meatshield, range extender etc). It's still a fundamentally good tool that just needs more careful usage. This last KTAR Dabuz kinda showed how dominant Rosa can still be, and the matches against Diddy were pretty even (probably a 5-5 MU now)

Edit:

If you guys are talking about results, why isnt anyone bringing up Sonic?

We do complain about bring up Sonic quite often, definitely a serious contender.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Rosa nair is still really good, llol

 

[Chuva]

The hitxbox is kinda wonky now, doesn't cover her front much. Still good on platform stages though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's results for those interested.

If you want check out the results thread on /r/smashbros where we'll have discussion topics for each character. They're a great way to talk about how to play as/against characters and explain character strengths/weaknesses.

Without further ado, here we go!!!

S Tier:

(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)

A TIER:

(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)

B Tier:

(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

C+ Tier:
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11)

C Tier:

(-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14)

D Tier:

(+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

E Tier:

(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1)

F Tier:
(-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)


Things of note:

• Obviously Captain Falcon got voted up really high purely from popularity, especially on /r/smashbros.
• Some characters made MASSIVE jumps. Public perception of these characters could have been heavily influenced by the recent patch.
• Tournament results may have moved some of these guys up/down as well.
• No one thinks Mii Swordfighter is good.

Thoughts everyone?

I'm a regular poster on reddit and /r/smashbros is a fun subreddit but it is full of very casual players who got most of their information about competitive smash from the melee "documentary."

They have no idea how Smash 4 is balanced. Most of them still think ZSS is the best character in the game. I have pointed out how wrong that is on a few occasions and get 50 downvotes. There are also a number of other problems with this list that I probably don't need to specify.

/r/smashbros is not like /r/dota or /r/leagueoflegends or /r/sf4. These guys don't keep up with anything but melee grand finals. Everyone thinks they know exactly what they're talking about despite most of their impressions being based on things zero said before the game came out on 3DS or for glory casual matches, for example the guy I talked to there who thinks zss is OP because he loses to her with DDD on for glory but can "handle sheik and rosalina just fine." They really have no idea what they are talking about and they don't understand that their wins and losses with whoever mean literally almost nothing. The entire community is the embodiment of an "i beat my brother all the time with..." understanding of game balance.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I mean, Mario at #8 and Dr. Mario at #49 alone speaks volumes about their process; that's just silly. Probably half of the people in this topic could make up tier lists on their own that would be more accurate on average than that list, and I'm not sure we can draw any meaning from it.

 

[Trifroze]

Robin definitely isn't top 5, she loses matchups to too many rushdown characters. I'd say realistically Robin will be somewhere between 8-20 with the tools she has. Her running speed, grab range and the lack of good close-combat options are her biggest weaknesses right now, but she's one of the best killers in the game with great reach and projectile setups. If she ran a bit faster and grabbed from further away I'd put her in top 8 though.

 

[LostinpinK]

Why are people even discussing this tier list? It's as bad as eventhub's because of how it was made.

I respect the project because it shows the for glory players' opinion to some extent, but it's by no means competitive.

 

[Yonder]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's results for those interested.

If you want check out the results thread on /r/smashbros where we'll have discussion topics for each character. They're a great way to talk about how to play as/against characters and explain character strengths/weaknesses.

Without further ado, here we go!!!

S Tier:

(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)

A TIER:

(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)

B Tier:

(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

C+ Tier:
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11)

C Tier:

(-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14)

D Tier:

(+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

E Tier:

(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1)

F Tier:
(-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)


Things of note:

• Obviously Captain Falcon got voted up really high purely from popularity, especially on /r/smashbros.
• Some characters made MASSIVE jumps. Public perception of these characters could have been heavily influenced by the recent patch.
• Tournament results may have moved some of these guys up/down as well.
• No one thinks Mii Swordfighter is good.

Thoughts everyone?

OMG, Mario's placement that high. I can't even breath I'm laughing so hard right now. Over a top 3 like Lucario? Like, it's so jarring. Sure he's decent, but nothing higher than mid tier. He's balanced right, but balanced as in...Ctier. No major weaknesses. I'm assuming these reddit players didn't play past the demo characters? [Kidding!]

Other than that, it's actually not that bad. Ganondorf could stand to drop, along with shulk, DDD, and BJ. Mac could be a bit higher. I could argue Luigi a few spots higher [Tourney results + chaingrab, not bias!] but otherwise...not bad.


This could have been the closest to an accurate tier list so far...why'd they have to screw up so bad on Mario?


It IS better than Eventhubs though by a slim margin.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Seeing that low is like seeing an very low. Maybe the reason why is that low is because nobody plays as him in any competitive matches.(That's kinda sad)

 

[DanGR]

I am conflicted about Ness. I think that he has very polarized matchups. He's definitely top 10, just not sure that he's top 5. His recovery is a bigger weakness than people realize; nobody but Nairo is really taking advantage of it yet (and then only because Nairo is so good at teching, like dang). FOW and Nakat are both very good players, so they might be making him seem better than he is. I definitely think that the characters I named (with the exception of possibly Robin) are better, though.

edit: When I think about it, Ness is probably better than Robin without customs. With customs is probably a different story. So sure, I've changed my mind. Ness for top 5.

I think Rosalina is probably 8th or 9th. The patch was huge; if anything, I was underrating its effect previously. The nerf to Luma was really big for the other side of her matchups, and there was one big nerf that I didn't even think mattered but now have a completely different perspective on: her n-air. This move used to singlehandedly win matchups, but its hitboxes and damage have been shrunk/reduced. I believe that she loses many matchups post-patch that she didn't lose before, such as the Diddy matchup.

The top 10-20 aren't *that* different though. I wouldn't be surprised to see anyone in that group get really good results in tourney. I think Fox is only like 15th, and he'll probably still get top 5 at Apex somehow.

I'm cherry-picking here.


Rosalina's n-air was never really good because of the size of her foot hitbox. It's good because of its many variations and the safe shield pressure options it provides from the air. I'll cover the main 2 real quick for those that don't know what I'm talking about.

SH-> rising n-air is useful for pressuring grounded opponents when they can't retroactively punish it. It has 11 frames of landing lag- none if autocanceled- and it's easy to space on shields and use Luma jab/dtilt to pressure thereafter without risk of retaliation. Not to mention Rosalina's heavy zone control makes it risky for most characters to place themself in position to punish her n-air retroactively in the first place, even outside of unfavorable stage positioning against Rosalina.

SHFF->autocanceled n-air (where Luma's hitbox comes out, but Rosalina's doesn't) gives her a free frame advantage on block with any kind of spacing. When spaced after the n-air, Rosalina ftilt provides similar shield pressure to the application of Luma jab/dtilt mentioned earlier. Rolling behind opponents during this action makes Luma attack an opponent's shield twice, providing simultaneous shield pressure and re-positioning behind her opponent. Hitting with either Luma hit true combos into followups, given the nature of autocanceled attacks.

IMO, the bigger nerfs in order of importance were the following: the inability to command Luma during opponents' throws, the Luma respawn timer increase, the dsmash cooldown increase, and the knockback growth nerf on upsmash. The rest hurt a little bit.

 

[Luco]

I'm waiting for any indication that Bowser Jr isn't horrendous off of wifi, his custom specials are very abusive though, but I doubt this is considered.

See had EA not ended that friendly doubles game, I would've shown you exactly why Bowser Jr isn't horrendous off wifi!

#shotsfiredonpikachu



(btw ^ was an old post I deleted but just now decided to post because smashboards randomly saved it)

As for Ness, i'm doing pretty decenly with him over here... Nobody cares about lil' ol Australia, even though this early in the meta our results whould in theory mean something right? Right? :D

But seriously, Fair and Nair are two aerials that seriously make a difference, Bair and Uair are also both great and can kill and although I certainly concede his recovery has issues with windboxes especially, it's much better than it used to be and should hold him back less now than it used to.

Umm, I don't know whether he's in top 5 or not. I tend to put him there, but I main him so... dat character bias, I suppose. I can tell you that V and I are doing pretty well with him over here in Australia (though V also uses Villager); but i've only been to one tournament and not sure about V, so take it as you will. Also the world likes to laugh at our meta... so as a pre-emptive defense mechanism, screw you guys too

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I'm getting mixed signals on Wario. What do people think of him. I see people say he's bottom tier and not tourney viable at all. What's rhe General consensus?

 

[TTTTTsd]

"Wario" "Bottom Tier" Well they're probably lying. Worst I can see Wario as is mid tier, he's fairly solid as per usual and he has the unique ability to be able to take a stock at like 40-50% anywhere on stage with Waft. That **** kills FAST.

 

[RoseyBetch]

If I had to guess the top ten, it would be Diddy Kong, Sheik, Lucario, Yoshi, Rosalina, Zero Suit, Ness, Sonic, Greninja, and Captain Falcon. Would this be somewhat accurate or is Pikachu or Robin supposed to be there somewhere?

 

[Jabejazz]

They're probably all pissed he can no longer Wector. I know I am. But yeah, Wario is still pretty damn good. Bike is so amazing.

Found a funny list on Japanese BBS, figured I'd post here for a laugh.

RANK OVER (intrinsically broken): Lucario
SS Rank (broken): Diddy
S Rank (invalidating): Sheik
A Rank (strong): Dedede, Bowser, Olimar, Luigi
B Rank (good): ZSS, Charizard, Shulk, Wario

The other characters are not mentioned.
It doesn't seem like a lot of people are disagreeing, just a lot of complaints about Lucario.

I for one welcome our Japanese TripleD overlords.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

They're probably all pissed he can no longer Wector. I know I am. But yeah, Wario is still pretty damn good. Bike is so amazing.



I for one welcome our Japanese TripleD overlords.

Is that a current Japanese tier list?? They have Wario that high? There's no way.

 

[Jabejazz]

Is that a current Japanese tier list?? They have Wario that high? There's no way.

List is to be taken with a grain of salt regardless, but I still believe Wario is a fairly solid character.

A combination of heavy weight and amazing aerial mobility to weave in and out, an aerial grab in Bite, Bike offering limitless mixups.

Character has no blatant/exploitable weaknesses, I'd have a hard time to rank this character in the lower tiers.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

I'm getting mixed signals on Wario. What do people think of him. I see people say he's bottom tier and not tourney viable at all. What's rhe General consensus?

I did use Wario for my 3ds/wiiu tourney 2 days ago and placed 4th. I donno why people thinking Wario is not tourney viable at all.

 

[madworlder]

Is that a current Japanese tier list?? They have Wario that high? There's no way.

It's just a random list from some BBS, but I think it best reflects their opinions on Lucario being the best in the game, and generally high opinions on characters America the Anglosphere isn't entirely sold on like Dedede, Olimar, Luigi, Wario, Shulk, and Charizard.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

He has poor range and limited kill options.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wario? Ftilt is pretty easy to kill with at high percents, Bike is ridiculously good now, FSmash can be done off a hard read, USmash works at high %s.

I don't think Wario's kill options are incredibly limited, especially not when you take it edgeguarding with Fair, Bair, or Dair. All three work (Dair killing at higher %s is awesome)

 

[Smog Frog]

can we discuss dk? i'll get the barrel ball rolling by saying his limbs are huge

 

[Kofu]

ROB can't really hit you at long range in neutral, and his projectiles by themselves don't set up anything easily, so he has to play conventional footsies to get anywhere, where he's honestly not very strong. His tilts have okay range and speed, but don't do much damage. And you have to keep in mind ROB is tall and has one of the worst shields in the game. The nerfs to ROB's footsies make this weakness very apparent.

Saying ROB's KO power is reasonable is like saying Mario is amazing at KOing because he can kill people at like 80-90% with F-smash. Now, ROB's buffed U-throw does help him significantly, I will give him that, but you have to remember his damage per hit is about as low as Mario's, and he doesn't have the same followup potential either.

ROB like Mario is easily juggled and edgeguarded. He's harder to gimp and heavier, which helps and makes him slightly better overall, but if you're negative state is one that counts on tanking hits you can't avoid, you probably should be a hard hitting character or highly dominant in neutral. Unfortunately, ROB is not Rosalina, nor is he Ganondorf. By the way before you argue Ganon's viability again, I definitely believe Ganondorf beats ROB convincingly, who outranges him and can easily take advantage of ROB's huge frame, and because ROB is very bad at edgeguarding low recoveries, and then because ROB's hits just do very little damage.

The primary upside to ROB is lasers have the potential to allow ROB to maintain momentum at long ranges due to their juggle potential, and when ROB is able to win neutral, the Gyro gives him more control options. But this doesn't make him very good at dealing lots of damage very quickly on a read, nor does it give him really good ways of finishing people early.

I believe ROB is a character who overall doesn't get KOs super easily, suffers a lot due to his size, shield, physics, and negative state, and his nerfed neutral doesn't protect ROB nearly well enough to make him very strong.

I don't think ROB is an amazing character by any means (although I'll admit that I am personally not very good at fighting him, lol) he's not in the bottom group of the characters. He probably got hit by the mechanics as hard as any character and the loss of FTilt's range hit him hard. He did receive several buffs though, notably to his smashes, UAir, and throws. You'll still have to explain the results that Vinnie and others have been getting with our Nintendo buddy. As far as I know, the only Ganon that's been getting tournament results so far is Gungnir. And ROB might lose to Ganon, I really don't know. In the match you linked, one notable blot on Holy's playstyle is his lack of using Gyro as an edgeguarding tool, either to snipe Ganon offstage or as a trap on the ledge (I guess he didn't try it after Ray repeatedly grabbed the Gyro the first match).

Regarding Ganon, I'm a little curious what changes he received from Brawl to Smash 4 that, in your mind, moved him up to mid-tier from bottom tier. A few changes he got to his moves are closer to bugfixes or oversights from Brawl. Extending the hitbox on down-B, giving up-B enough hitstun to protect him from counterattacks after landing the move, and FAir not resetting upon landing are three notable ones. He did lose the option to autocancel DAir out of a low jump (not a huge deal, but it's not really a safe option close to the ground anymore) and Flame Choke is now tech able, which lessens the strength of the move and, if Ray Kalm and Verm are to be believed, some characters can punish Ganon for landing the move if they tech. He benefits from most of the mechanics changes; he's able to punish airdodges better (but makes his own landings tougher) and it's harder to edgeguard him because ledgehogging is no longer a thing. His recovery is still pretty poor, though; it feels to me like it goes less far than in Brawl (could be a change in physics at work here). His range seems to be a bigger deal now than in Brawl, but his lack of mobility is still a massive hindrance. For what it's with, I agree with you that his moveset is generally good, only really held back by mobility.

Custom moves make some difference to his viability, but it's important to remember that everyone else gets custom moves, too, and Ganon's customs mainly serve to makes his options more safe; they don't add a new dimension to his game like they do for some others. I don't have enough experience with his customs to really judge how they impact his game, but they're certainly more helpful for him than for some others.

Edit: I love typing on my phone, I always have to go back and make fixes to spelling.

 

[Flamecircle]

can we discuss dk? i'll get the barrel ball rolling by saying his limbs are huge

He's huge, but I don't think he's great. His range is high but most of the things he does are punishable on block. His key merits are his downB, UpB, which are great midrange options, and his amazing kill power, but using him always feels like an uphill battle.

At the same time, I acknowledge I could be wrong, because this game made the big guys feel more like traditional grapplers in that the reward on hit is huge, and dying is hard. I might just get demoralized from being slapped by Shiek too many times and only ever winning by what feels like a random hit.

kofu above me: Ganon got basically nothing besides some framedata buffs- mostly nerfs I think. The loss of thunderstorming is sadder for me than you know- it was the ultimate roll punish, amongst several brutal uses. He just functions better with the engine somehow. The ledge grab mechanic definitely helped. the blanket projectile nerf also helped. The blanket increase on aerial spacing/shutdown landing lag helped.

I don't know otherwise, really. His biggest buff is Warlock dropkick, which we can barely use.

Honestly, I don't think Ganon is that good still, just very comfy to play. He's had no results besides one tourney showing.