Character Competitive Impressions

[FlareHabanero]

I have two questions that I want to ask, as I'm someone new to the game and series. Why is Duck Hunt always ranked so high, and why is WFT always ranked so low?

Duck Hunt is mainly good because the character can apply a lot of pressure with the varies projectiles, while having effective normals at close range to still give the character some offensive edge.

Wii Fit Trainer, while having a niche with pivots due to the properties of varies attacks, suffers from weird and deceptively short hitboxes.

 

[Lavani]

People saying Greninja is worse are over exaggerating (Kirby between 64 and Melee is a classic example of worse nerfs), and not everything was nerfed to begin with. Up aerial is arguably better since you can better combo it into another up aerial or other attacks like a forward smash or up tilt, and up aerial spiking is easier to excecute. Shadow Sneak (especially in the Wii U version due to the more subtle shadow) is more reliable due to being overall faster. Down smash is more useful due to the increase in power. I think the only nerf that actually hurts Greninja is the up smash, since it's now no longer an easy finisher and you need to be more strategic with it.

I mostly agree, and even the usmash nerf isn't a huge deal. A massively disjointed usmash that hit for 19% sweetspotted that covers both above and to the sides, KOs early, was nearly lagless, and even served as combo filler was blatantly too good. It's still quite good and even still works as a combo ender, it's just more punishable and people need to adapt to having their (buffed!) dsmash for covering them to the sides instead of using usmash as the blanket answer to all situations.

The main nerfs I feel were undeserved were the loss of fastfall shadow sneak and weaker KO power on fair, but in the grand scheme of things those weren't huge losses either. Like I said previously, the nerfs just seem worse than they are because they demand a different approach to the character, he certainly wasn't destroyed by 1.0.4 or anything.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Why the hell is Dr. Mario so lowwwww on that list?

My guess is that people voted on Doc not based on how good he was, but on whether or not he was better than Mario. Either that or people thought this didn't include custom moves, because IMO he actually is that bad with the default loadout. That would also explain why Mii Brawler and Palutena are that low.

 

[Luco]

I'm surprised that you guys are surprised by Gunner. I've suspected for a really long time (and mentioned on this thread on several occasions, so HAH) that he's quite the good character and would probably break those upper tier echelons.

You guys are SOOO November meta

 

[madworlder]

I think of WFT as very middle of the road. Some boxes are obviously short like nair and dair, or are long in not particularly useful angles like the front of fair, but WFT still seems totally capable of beating strong characters like Rosalina and Diddy. If it's true that she's one of the worst characters in the game, Smash For's balance is better than anyone is giving it credit for.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have two questions that I want to ask, as I'm someone new to the game and series. Why is Duck Hunt always ranked so high, and why is WFT always ranked so low?

WFT has below average range, and also relies on charge moves to be powerful.

All of her custom variants in some way are very viable, but I would say generally speaking, her short range and relatively low reward without Sun Salutation is probably why she's weak. I mean, Sun Salutation is great, like a nerfed Samus Charge Shot. But she also depends on it for just simple zoning. Also finding time to charge Deep Breathing is not always trivial, and you kinda need it to hit hard.

The most underrated part of the character is she actually has a very good offstage game at least with her default Up-B, because she is able to edgeguard pretty deep, and her aerials are fairly strong and cover good options. Oh and Sun Salutation obviously.

imo from what little I'm getting, I agree with Shaya who stated earlier there is basically a top tier (top 8 or so), a high tier (top 20), and then a mid tier (everyone else). The 5 worst characters aren't really much worse than the rest of the cast, but I would argue they are . Mostly, they're characters that are just noticeably worse at getting KOs than most other characters and don't easily survive super long to make up for it. They might have just enough tools to make it in neutral, but the risk/reward leaves them worse off.

Actually, WFT's survivability is probably good (at least with default Up-B, not sure how to judge Jumbo Hoop yet as a recovery move though it improves her neutral), but without Sun Salutation charged up, she has limited capitalization options especially since her Smashes are among the worst in the game (U-smash is okay due to invincibility frames, the others you probably shouldn't use for the most part).

 

[NAKAT]

The guy has a lot of passion for his character, so while I agree that he's been going about asking in the wrong way, as long as you're in this topic I'd like to request on his behalf that you explain what you think makes Mario good. It would probably be interesting insight for all of us.

I think people aren't really investing into Doc all that much but it doesn't surprise me. I thought he was pretty underwhelming at first too until the removal of vectoring and the GC controller. Both of those in tandem was like...a lot better, def. still low tier but I wouldn't put him in the bottom 10 anymore. Of course my opinion is sort of biased and it's really hard to say WHERE I'd put him but it's nowhere near worst in the game atm.

One thing I can definitely say is that Falco is definitely NOT low tier or even close to that location......

I got you guys later.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Aight thanks, I'd appreciate it on multiple fronts! It's going to be cool to hear insight from a high level player to compare it to my (admittedly less experienced) own.

 

[Kofu]

Not really going to argue most of your points here, but ROB doesn't really struggle to get KOs from my experience. UAir, BAir, USmash, and FSmash are all reasonably strong and aren't too hard to land. He's also solid at gimping.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not really going to argue most of your points here, but ROB doesn't really struggle to get KOs from my experience. UAir, BAir, USmash, and FSmash are all reasonably string and aren't too hard to land. He's also solid at gimping.

ROB can't set up U-air at KO percents easily. B-air's okay for edgeguarding, but pretty telegraphed and when you miss, ROB is often forced into a position where he can't really follow up easily. F-smash is slow, and doesn't kill except at very close range. U-smash lacks real setups except edgetrapping and punishing suboptimal spacing out of shield. Before you argue generic land trapping, keep in mind ROB's physics are bad for pressuring airdodges due to his high jumps and floaty physics, so he's only getting generic land trapping against characters with very noticeably bad landing options.

Also, ROB is not good at gimping. Has some of the worst runoff options in the game because basically everything he does hits super high or has noticeable startup. So you basically never worry about him catching you recovering low unless he's holding Gyro, which requires prior setup.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Not really going to argue most of your points here, but ROB doesn't really struggle to get KOs from my experience. UAir, BAir, USmash, and FSmash are all reasonably string and aren't too hard to land. He's also solid at gimping.

Don't forget that his U-throw kills and recieves decent scaling along with Rage.

I'm surprised that you guys are surprised by Gunner. I've suspected for a really long time (and mentioned on this thread on several occasions, so HAH) that he's quite the good character and would probably break those upper tier echelons.

You guys are SOOO November meta

No im being a tad excited when I say Upper. I mean that Gunner is a good character, a basic package. He has his shorting in his speed, and lag on a couple notable moves but he's rather solid, and the specific mechanics of his kit may lead to him having some key match ups to help cover some shortcomings of other characters. That is my main draw to him, however again he's very good and I wouldn't be shocked if he reached upper levels but for now he's in the "middle"

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thoughts everyone?

I think for the most part it's complete garbage.

 

[san.]

You guys have convinced me to give Gunner a shot in my next tournament. What set is the most viable in your opinions @ ChronoPenguin and @ san. ?

Had to finally buckle down and create different Mii specs. When I played, it was on another person's Wii U with his own Mii.

Neutral B 3: Grenade Launch
-Seems to be a super projectile. Pretty much nullifies his other projectile options outside of perhaps staling. It's spammable, you can move in the air while charging, great at B-reverse, you can spam it, it lasts on the field for a long time, deals great damage and possibly kills, and it releases quickly.

Side B: Doesn't really matter much. Gunner Missile has too much endlag to really use over grenade launch or Gunner's aerials. Flame Pillar is mediocre (surprisingly good non-transcendent anti-projectile though), but it's another tool for keeping out opponents slightly faster than the grenade. Stealth Burst seems like a safe and predictable mid-long range tool that deals good damage, so I like that. Gunner Missile is great at forcing long-ranged approaches, but mediocre at medium-short range because you suffer some lag afterwards.

Up B: I like all of them. Lunar Launch is a poor man's version of Robin's upB, but it does its job. Cannon uppercut is a great killing upB. Not sure if it's worth it since Gunner doesn't have many problems killing. Arm Rocket is decent and gives a slightly more responsive recovery with the ability to angle it anywhere horizontally and vertically above you. Cannon uppercut is probably the best since his projectiles can easily set-up into it, but it's not bad having a better recovery so you can go deeper offstage and not have to worry about gimps.

Down B: Definitely MU dependent. I'd take Ness' magnet and shine in MUs where they're applicable, magnet vs. characters with bombs or lasers, and shine vs all other projectiles. Samus' bomb is good in its own right and can cover your landings better than grenade if you're launched in the air and you don't have enough time to react, retaining the aerial mobility/b-reverse functions. I may take bomb over shine in quite a few MUs because of it.

Then there are his normals, which are all great (only ftilt I find meh at first glance). Vs. large characters, you can play keepaway akin to DHD. Vs quick characters, you can use your projectiles to supplement your approach easily, and Gunner does have respectable CQC and damage. With just the specials, Gunner is quite good, and that was the extent of my initial impressions until I looked at his A moves further and used him in more serious matches.

 

[Kofu]

ROB can't set up U-air at KO percents easily. B-air's okay for edgeguarding, but pretty telegraphed and when you miss, ROB is often forced into a position where he can't really follow up easily. F-smash is slow, and doesn't kill except at very close range. U-smash lacks real setups except edgetrapping and punishing suboptimal spacing out of shield. Before you argue generic land trapping, keep in mind ROB's physics are bad for pressuring airdodges due to his high jumps and floaty physics, so he's only getting generic land trapping against characters with very noticeably bad landing options.

Also, ROB is not good at gimping. Has some of the worst runoff options in the game because basically everything he does hits super high or has noticeable startup. So you basically never worry about him catching you recovering low unless he's holding Gyro, which requires prior setup.

If Sheik and Greninja can kill with their UAirs as a followup from a throw, which have much more narrow hitboxes than ROB's, then he can kill with his (I believe his is also stronger, able to kill lower down on the stage). Their movement options and jumps do make landing UAir kills easier than ROB's do, though. BAir isn't nearly as punishable as you make it sound, especially since it moves him forward (I miss the hitbox on his body from Brawl, though). FSmash is weak at a distance but his Pivot FSmash is likely one of the best in the game with its range and relative speed. USmash is pretty telegraphed but it's easier to land than in Brawl, at least from the ground, with the addition of a pop-up hitbox. ChronoPenguin brought up another excellent kill move: UThrow, buffed from Brawl and able to kill lightweights at 130% (or sooner with rage).

I dunno, I don't see how a character with decent ranged options, reasonable kill power, solid weight, and good throws is bottom 5, especially when he's actually getting results.

 

[Clemente]

post

I don't get why Dark Pit is always just placed in the same general area as Pit. I feel that he's low tier, being a Pit with non functioning arrows. Little Mac being low tier is just hilarious, as if you can place a character lower because you've fought them more and you're more familiar with the MU? This post reeks of buffoonery.

The idea that some of the characters in the low tier are less effective than Ganondorf is absolutely crazy.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Personally I think Dark Pit/Lucina shouldn't really be more than 2 places below the superior character.

Dr. Mario is a weird case but only because he's one of the slowest characters in the game mobility wise, so I wouldn't place a ranking on him just yet.

 

[Clemente]

Personally I think Dark Pit/Lucina shouldn't really be more than 2 places below the superior character.

Dr. Mario is a weird case but only because he's one of the slowest characters in the game mobility wise, so I wouldn't place a ranking on him just yet.

I think it's a mistake to approach every "clone" character in the same way in your placement of them on a tier list... having used Pit every day since the 3DS release, I can't stress how fundamentally different Dark Pit is completely losing the gimping ability of the arrows. I'm talking about Pit's arrows which can basically get anywhere on the stage, making 100 degree+ angles to basically be homing missiles versus Dark Pit's which can't be aimed at all (like a 10 degree shift?)... Just a little nitpick, I see that everybody just throws them together "for the lulz" without thinking about it.

 

[Ffamran]

Personally I think Dark Pit/Lucina shouldn't really be more than 2 places below the superior character.

Dr. Mario is a weird case but only because he's one of the slowest characters in the game mobility wise, so I wouldn't place a ranking on him just yet.

Luci's more like Melee Falco as Marth is to Fox. I think they're going to be close, but different play styles and the benefits of their play styles will determine where they're going to be. Dark Pit should literally be a / since there's so little compared to Lucina and the Melee clones where they have almost the same moves, but entirely different play styles. Dr. Mario's like another Luigi or well, Falco, a semi-clone. So, it's going to be tougher to place him.

We'll have to see with the nth iteration of the tier list.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Dr. Mario's gonna be pretty low ranked for a while until some time passes cause he's going to be compared directly to Mario (unavoidable) but really he's a much different character. It's not like Lucina to Marth with him.

He's more of a wall who capitalizes on openings and either camps and forces you to him, or goes in when you're vulnerable, and racks up damage fairly easily and then kills at low %s. His mobility and recovery are his achilles heel but they also make him super functionally different from Mario. Fundamentally different characters IMO.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think it's a mistake to approach every "clone" character in the same way in your placement of them on a tier list... having used Pit every day since the 3DS release, I can't stress how fundamentally different Dark Pit is completely losing the gimping ability of the arrows. I'm talking about Pit's arrows which can basically get anywhere on the stage, making 100 degree+ angles to basically be homing missiles versus Dark Pit's which can't be aimed at all (like a 10 degree shift?)... Just a little nitpick, I see that everybody just throws them together "for the lulz" without thinking about it.

Personally I think considering that Pit and Dark Pit's differences are mainly in not very good moves (Is it electro arm and arrows? One's just a bad move and the other is a minor annoyance that's easily powershielded) I think that there's very good reason for them to be ranked similarly.

But that's just my opinion~

Luci's more like Melee Falco as Marth is to Fox. I think they're going to be close, but different play styles and the benefits of their play styles will determine where they're going to be. Dark Pit should literally be a / since there's so little compared to Lucina and the Melee clones where they have almost the same moves, but entirely different play styles. Dr. Mario's like another Luigi or well, Falco, a semi-clone. So, it's going to be tougher to place him.

We'll have to see with the nth iteration of the tier list.

Like Pit and Dark Pit, Marth and Lucina will focus primarily on spacing well/footsies. Marth just gets a better reward for not being bad.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's results for those interested.

If you want check out the results thread on /r/smashbros where we'll have discussion topics for each character. They're a great way to talk about how to play as/against characters and explain character strengths/weaknesses.

Without further ado, here we go!!!

S Tier:

(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)

A TIER:

(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)

B Tier:

(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

C+ Tier:
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11)

C Tier:

(-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14)

D Tier:

(+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

E Tier:

(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1)

F Tier:
(-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)


Things of note:

• Obviously Captain Falcon got voted up really high purely from popularity, especially on /r/smashbros.
• Some characters made MASSIVE jumps. Public perception of these characters could have been heavily influenced by the recent patch.
• Tournament results may have moved some of these guys up/down as well.
• No one thinks Mii Swordfighter is good.

Thoughts everyone?

How did peach drop from possibly being top ten to the middle of the pack? yeah her glitches are gone but she's still really good at what she does.

Mario is too situational to be that high.

 

[madworlder]

Found a funny list on Japanese BBS, figured I'd post here for a laugh.

ランクオーバー(真性ぶっ壊れ)：ルカリオ
SSランク(ぶっ壊れ)：ディディー
Sランク(廃キャラ)：シーク
Aランク(強キャラ)：デデデ、クッパ、ピクミン＆オリマー、ルイージ
Bランク(良キャラ)：ゼロスーツサムス、リザードン、シュルク、ワリオ

RANK OVER (intrinsically broken): Lucario
SS Rank (broken): Diddy
S Rank (invalidating): Sheik
A Rank (strong): Dedede, Bowser, Olimar, Luigi
B Rank (good): ZSS, Charizard, Shulk, Wario

The other characters are not mentioned.
It doesn't seem like a lot of people are disagreeing, just a lot of complaints about Lucario.

 

[Clemente]

Personally I think considering that Pit and Dark Pit's differences are mainly in not very good moves (Is it electro arm and arrows? One's just a bad move and the other is a minor annoyance that's easily powershielded) I think that there's very good reason for them to be ranked similarly.

But that's just my opinion~

We'll have to agree to disagree. I have a feeling that you'll change your mind later. You're right about the differences. It is the arrows and the side-b, I believe Dark Pit has a slightly weaker F-tilt as well, but you're seriously minimizing the importance of those 2 moves in the character's repertoire. Especially the arrows

Regardless it's pretty obvious to me in the past couple pages... and no offense to anyone... that a lot of these early lists are a product of personal biases, misinformation/lack of information/etc. It's definitely going to be quite a while before any of these lists are even slightly accurate or relevant in any way. The Reddit voting is basically a joke but it's telling about how subjective everyone is being on this board too.

I haven't commented much about the characters yet besides my opinion on how powerful Rosalina was pre-nerf. I think she's much more balanced with the adjusted respawn time of Luma.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Dr. Mario's gonna be pretty low ranked for a while until some time passes cause he's going to be compared directly to Mario (unavoidable) but really he's a much different character. It's not like Lucina to Marth with him.

He's more of a wall who capitalizes on openings and either camps and forces you to him, or goes in when you're vulnerable, and racks up damage fairly easily and then kills at low %s. His mobility and recovery are his achilles heel but they also make him super functionally different from Mario. Fundamentally different characters IMO.

Hey, at least the Doc is being compared to SSB4 characters or in other words: fighters of this current game. Now, look at poor Falco being compared to Melee and Brawl Falco or Meta Knight being compared to Brawl, broken Meta Knight. Oh, look! Major changes. Better skedaddle.

It's all right to notice changes like how Link's much more agile compared to previous Links and is considered the best since Melee Link, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon making comebacks, Fox being similar to Brawl Fox, etc., but it's something else to notice changes and just abandon the character as if those characters started abusing drugs that hamper their ability to fight or committed unspeakable crimes. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room; their existence and their potential like every other fighter in SSB4.

Like Pit and Dark Pit, Marth and Lucina will focus primarily on spacing well/footsies. Marth just gets a better reward for not being bad.

I was talking more about tier placement and how those characters will be placed based on their play style and the benefits. Marth can alternate between strong tippers and combo-friendly untipped hits while Lucina - like Roy sort of - can deal out consistent strong hits which will backfire on her like Falco putting opponents near, but not pass the blast line.

Thanks for the info, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hey, at least the Doc is being compared to SSB4 characters or in other words: fighters of this current game. Now, look at poor Falco being compared to Melee and Brawl Falco or Meta Knight being compared to Brawl, broken Meta Knight. Oh, look! Major changes. Better skedaddle.

I'd say that's good except he's being compared to a character that he only shares animations with. His entire gameplan is super different so I agree, same boat as Falco in that sense (although unlike Falco Doc is probably still low tier, I just don't see him as one of the worst or really THAT bad). It's a cruddy feeling.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Sheik and Greninja can kill with their UAirs as a followup from a throw, which have much more narrow hitboxes than ROB's, then he can kill with his (I believe his is also stronger, able to kill lower down on the stage). Their movement options and jumps do make landing UAir kills easier than ROB's do, though. BAir isn't nearly as punishable as you make it sound, especially since it moves him forward (I miss the hitbox on his body from Brawl, though). FSmash is weak at a distance but his Pivot FSmash is likely one of the best in the game with its range and relative speed. USmash is pretty telegraphed but it's easier to land than in Brawl, at least from the ground, with the addition of a pop-up hitbox. ChronoPenguin brought up another excellent kill move: UThrow, buffed from Brawl and able to kill lightweights at 130% (or sooner with rage).

I dunno, I don't see how a character with decent ranged options, reasonable kill power, solid weight, and good throws is bottom 5, especially when he's actually getting results.

ROB can't really hit you at long range in neutral, and his projectiles by themselves don't set up anything easily, so he has to play conventional footsies to get anywhere, where he's honestly not very strong. His tilts have okay range and speed, but don't do much damage. And you have to keep in mind ROB is tall and has one of the worst shields in the game. The nerfs to ROB's footsies make this weakness very apparent.

Saying ROB's KO power is reasonable is like saying Mario is amazing at KOing because he can kill people at like 80-90% with F-smash. Now, ROB's buffed U-throw does help him significantly, I will give him that, but you have to remember his damage per hit is about as low as Mario's, and he doesn't have the same followup potential either.

ROB like Mario is easily juggled and edgeguarded. He's harder to gimp and heavier, which helps and makes him slightly better overall, but if you're negative state is one that counts on tanking hits you can't avoid, you probably should be a hard hitting character or highly dominant in neutral. Unfortunately, ROB is not Rosalina, nor is he Ganondorf. By the way before you argue Ganon's viability again, I definitely believe Ganondorf beats ROB convincingly, who outranges him and can easily take advantage of ROB's huge frame, and because ROB is very bad at edgeguarding low recoveries, and then because ROB's hits just do very little damage.

The primary upside to ROB is lasers have the potential to allow ROB to maintain momentum at long ranges due to their juggle potential, and when ROB is able to win neutral, the Gyro gives him more control options. But this doesn't make him very good at dealing lots of damage very quickly on a read, nor does it give him really good ways of finishing people early.

I believe ROB is a character who overall doesn't get KOs super easily, suffers a lot due to his size, shield, physics, and negative state, and his nerfed neutral doesn't protect ROB nearly well enough to make him very strong.

 

[NairWizard]

Regardless it's pretty obvious to me in the past couple pages... and no offense to anyone... that a lot of these early lists are a product of personal biases, misinformation/lack of information/etc. It's definitely going to be quite a while before any of these lists are even slightly accurate or relevant in any way. The Reddit voting is basically a joke but it's telling about how subjective everyone is being on this board too.

No one posted a tier list in the past few pages. It was only the Reddit list; everyone was just commenting on that list and breaking it down in different ways. I don't know where you see misinformation in this thread; it's probably the only thread on the board actively trying to reduce misinformation. After Grand Finals of a local this week (where I won convincingly against a Diddy as Pikachu), I came to this thread to post a guide on how to edgeguard Diddy. These kinds of observations are great for our understanding of the metagame. I look forward to Shaya's posts where he brings some interesting tournament observation about a new character every now and then.

Found a funny list on Japanese BBS, figured I'd post here for a laugh.

RANK OVER (intrinsically broken): Lucario
SS Rank (broken): Diddy
S Rank (invalidating): Sheik
A Rank (strong): Dedede, Bowser, Olimar, Luigi
B Rank (good): ZSS, Charizard, Shulk, Wario

The other characters are not mentioned.
It doesn't seem like a lot of people are disagreeing, just a lot of complaints about Lucario.

Dedede and Olimar in A Rank? I really want these Japanese players to show us their moves.

 

[Ffamran]

I'd say that's good except he's being compared to a character that he only shares animations with. His entire gameplan is super different so I agree, same boat as Falco in that sense (although unlike Falco Doc is probably still low tier, I just don't see him as one of the worst or really THAT bad). It's a cruddy feeling.

Doc and Mario are essentially like they were in Melee where they're similar, but work much differently. I mean, Ryu, Ken, Iori, Flames Iori, Kyo, NESTS Kyo, the Mishima family, and more share animations and/or attacks, but they play differently and there's nothing wrong with it.

Personally, I feel like Doc is the NESTS Kyo for people who want to play as an older version of Mario and Mario's, well, Mario with his new moves and different play style. He isn't a literal clone like Lucina or Dark Pit or the Melee clones, but another version. Now, justifying his inclusion is iffy so, I won't go there.

My issue is that people are writing off and ignoring characters without exploring them. They say history will repeat itself and I feel like it will with SSB4 where "low tiers" will surprise people because they ignored them.

I feel like I'm nagging now since this is the nth time I mentioned this, but it's something that people should keep in mind. It will take effort and humanity is generally lazy, but that effort will pay off. Heck, it already did with Palutena's customs making her way better.

 

[Clemente]

No one posted a tier list in the past few pages. It was only the Reddit list; everyone was just commenting on that list and breaking it down in different ways. I don't know where you see misinformation in this thread; it's probably the only thread on the board actively trying to reduce misinformation.

I'm commenting on the Reddit voting. I'm just saying that it makes me think about some of the posts I've seen on Smashboards. When I said "in the past couple pages", I was referring to the Reddit related posts.

You say this thread limits misinformation but I just had a discussion which at least to me showed an unwillingness to look at certain characters in the mid tier with much scrutiny. I tried to comment on the differences in 2 "clone" movesets and the character fundamentals, and the response is just "lol those moves that are different SUX anyways".

I understand that people are most interested in sorting out the characters which are most powerful, but it would be nice to dissect the other characters with some care.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There actually is not much relevant difference to Pit vs Dark pit other then Dark Pit being slightly weaker as a whole. There really isn't much to it. There moves don't make them very different at all, sorry to say it to you.
Lucina may play differently possibly, but Pit vs Dark Pit is really Pit with a weaker side Special and a trivial damage increase at a loss of arrow flexibility...plus a weaker ftilt.
What do you want them to say "yeah Dark pit and Pit are really different in meaningful ways" when they aren't?

"I believe Dark Pit has a slightly weaker F-tilt as well, but you're seriously minimizing the importance of those 2 moves in the character's repertoire. Especially the arrows"
Everyone knows it though. It makes Pit better then Dark Pit.
What is believed is that it's not enough of an inferiority to make Dark pit drop drastically from Pit.

 

[Ffamran]

There actually is not much relevant difference to Pit vs Dark pit other then Dark Pit being slightly weaker as a whole. There really isn't much to it. There moves don't make them very different at all, sorry to say it to you.
Lucina may play differently possibly, but Pit vs Dark Pit is really Pit with a weaker side Special and a trivial damage increase at a loss of arrow flexibility...plus a weaker ftilt.
What do you want them to say "yeah Dark pit and Pit are really different in meaningful ways" when they aren't?

"I believe Dark Pit has a slightly weaker F-tilt as well, but you're seriously minimizing the importance of those 2 moves in the character's repertoire. Especially the arrows"
Everyone knows it though. It makes Pit better then Dark Pit.
What is believed is that it's not enough of an inferiority to make Dark pit drop drastically from Pit.

Well, like I said, Dark Pit and Pit should be a "/" where they're placed right next to each other and used interchangeably, but the other thing is that if some patch ends up making them more like Melee clones, then they would be much more different than, "Hey, one's edgy and the other's not".

Oh, patches. How you'll ruin tier listers.

 

[Clemente]

What do you want them to say "yeah Dark pit and Pit are really different in meaningful ways" when they aren't?

No, just a willingness to consider how "small" (I disagree) differences might affect a character's viability, and tier placement, in a 50+ character roster.

I don't mind if you disagree, but if you just discount all the reasoning I gave previously by saying "lol, it's trivial" your post doesn't even mean anything. It's just hot air. It's useless.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You say this thread limits misinformation but I just had a discussion which at least to me showed an unwillingness to look at certain characters in the mid tier with much scrutiny. I tried to comment on the differences in 2 "clone" movesets and the character fundamentals, and the response is just "lol those moves that are different SUX anyways".

That's not what I said.

I said something more along the lines of "is the two special moves that are only very slightly different enough to warrant Dark Pit being 4 places lower on this tier list?"

What do the characters in between Dark Pit and Pit have that Dark Pit lacks in comparison to Pit?

 

[NairWizard]

No, just a willingness to consider how "small" (I disagree) differences might affect a character's viability, and tier placement, in a 50+ character roster.

I don't mind if you disagree, but if you just discount all the reasoning I gave previously by saying "lol, it's trivial" your post doesn't even mean anything. It's just hot air. It's useless.

Dark Pit is basically a worse Pit, which is the reason that people here don't really care to compare the two. It isn't so much that the difference is trivial as that there's no reason to use Dark Pit over Pit competitively, unless you just like the character Dark Pit. If you were coming into this thread claiming that Dark Pit > Pit then people would be interested in the discussion, probably, but right now when we're still sorting out major things like whether Charizard is High Tier or Bottom Tier and which MUs Diddy loses in, the Pit vs. Dark Pit thing is probably not too relevant to people.

I'll agree with you that it's a big difference, but we already know that Pit is better. Is he a tier better? I don't think so; the hardest matchups for both are the same characters. Dark Pit just has a tougher time against Ness and others that are gimpable because of the worse arrows. However, Dark Pit also improves more with customs imo, so the difference is probably smaller than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Ffamran]

That's not what I said.

I said something more along the lines of "is the two special moves that are only very slightly different enough to warrant Dark Pit being 4 places lower on this tier list?"

What do the characters in between Dark Pit and Pit have that Dark Pit lacks in comparison to Pit?

Well, the characters in between aren't literal clones.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

No, just a willingness to consider how "small" (I disagree) differences might affect a character's viability, and tier placement, in a 50+ character roster.

I don't mind if you disagree, but if you just discount all the reasoning I gave previously by saying "lol, it's trivial" your post doesn't even mean anything. It's just hot air. It's useless.

"It is the arrows and the side-b, I believe Dark Pit has a slightly weaker F-tilt as well, but you're seriously minimizing the importance of those 2 moves in the character's repertoire. Especially the arrows"
This is all your reasoning, two sentences.
The differences of course are trivial, they don't make Dark Pit bad, they make him inferior.
When we're talking getting a kill as Pits Upperdash knocking the opposition vertically straight up for a 140% kill anywhere on the stage, where as Dark Pit only gets that same % by the edge? He can aim for an earlier kill off-stage with it, with it being a *significantly* risky move off-stage that very easily lends itself to you dying if you use it off stage.

His arrow does 2% more damage at the loss of flexibility.

We're talking very small numbers. If it was 2% with the same features? Yes, however its 2% for lack of control, it's a general wash however landing a hit is better then not landing a hit, and because Pits arrows have greater ability to confirm damage due to their control, they are generally *better*.

What is your claim in favor of Dark pits ftilt?

Tl;dr Dark pit has a poorer performance then Pit. Now given this, who on the roster do you think possibly squeezes in the gap between them?

The differences are trivial but they are in Pits favor. There is a matter of practicality, I've written you quite a small piece, for your 2 sentences, as I did before.

Let's put it another way?
Who does Pit beat that dark pit "can't" beat and vise versa?
Nobody. Can anybody in this thread say a single matchup Pit actually wins over Dark Pit other then Pit vs Dark Pit?

The differences between them while significant on a level, aren't enough to really discuss. Pits better then Dark pit, Dark pits inferiority is insignificant on a general level.

So again the hell is there to consider. What do these small differences due to any viability accept vs Pit vs Dark Pit? You haven't really said a damn thing but feel we should. Show me the differences in viability? All that matters is Pit vs Dark Pit, pits tools are better in general. Which makes him win slightly more. **** the match up is probably legit 50.005:49.995

"I don't mind if you disagree, but if you just discount all the reasoning I gave previously by saying "lol, it's trivial" your post doesn't even mean anything. It's just hot air. It's useless."
Im going to have to send that right back at you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well, the characters in between aren't literal clones.

I know this post is a joke, but that's pretty much exactly my point. Dark Pit is literally the laziest clone in the history of Smash Bros.

They are almost exactly the same and should be ranked to reflect this.

 

[ChampKing]

Mac E. Rob A. Didn't even read the rest. For Glory Scrubs shouldn't be making lists.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Like Pit and Dark Pit, Marth and Lucina will focus primarily on spacing well/footsies. Marth just gets a better reward for not being bad.

And he's safer on block due to his tippers having extra shield stun, to the point where Marth has MANY more safer options than Lucina in practically every situation. Marth also can kill earlier, and arguably can set up juggles and build damage better if played correctly.

Marth is undeniably a SIGNIFICANTLY better character than Lucina, almost definitely more than 2-3 spots on a tier list depending on who theyre around. Id be willing to say, Marth is probably and entire tier above Lucina even.

 

[Ffamran]

I know this post is a joke, but that's pretty much exactly my point. Dark Pit is literally the laziest clone in the history of Smash Bros.

They are almost exactly the same and should be ranked to reflect this.

Unless a patch does something to fix that, but it'd be a huge patch since at least a third of either of their moves must be changed property-wise.