Character Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

I don't think ROB is an amazing character by any means (although I'll admit that I am personally not very good at fighter him, lol) he's not in the bottom group of the characters. He probably got hit by the mechanics as hard as any character and the loss of FTilt's range hit him hard. He did receive several buffs though, notably to his smashes, UAir, and throws. You'll still have to explain the results that Vinnie and others have been getting with our Nintendo buddy. As far as I know, the only Ganon that's been getting tournament results so far is Gungnir. And ROB might lose to Ganon, I really don't know. In the match you linked, one notable blot on Holy's playstyle is his lack of using Gyro as an edgeguarding tool, either to snipe Ganon offstage or as a trap on the ledge (I guess he didn't try it after Ray repeatedly grabbed the Gyro the first match).

Regarding Ganon, I'm a little curious what changes he received from Brawl to Smash 4 that, in your mind, moved him up to mid-tier from bottom tier. A few changes he got to his moves are closer to bugfixes or oversights from Brawl. Extending the hitbox on down-B, giving up-B enough hitstun to protect him from counterattacks after landing the move, and FAir not resetting upon landing are three notable ones. He did lose the option to autocancel DAir out of a low jump (not a huge deal, but it's not really a safe option close to the ground anymore) and Flame Choke is now tech able, which lessens the strength of the move and, if Ray Kalm and Verm are to be believed, some characters can punish Ganon for landing the move if they tech. He benefits from most of the mechanics changes; he's able to punish airdodfes better (but makes his own landings tougher) and it's harder to edgeguard him befacuse ledgehogging is no longer a thing. His recovery is still pretty poor, though; it feels to me like it goes less far than in Brawl (could be a change in physics at work here). His range seems to be a bigger deal now than in Brawl, but his lack of mobility is still a massive hindrance. For what it's with, I agree with you that his move lset is generally good, only really held back by mobility.

Custom moves make some difference to his viability, but it's important to remember that everyone else gets custom moves, too, and Ganon's customs mainly serve to makes his options more safe; they don't add a new dimension to his game like they do for some others. I don't have enough experience with his customs to really judge how they impact his game, but they're certainly more helpful for him than for some others.

Coming from a Ganon player, I'd like to say things about Ganondorf's customs; he actually does have a great recovery when Wizard's Dropkick is on, since he goes more horizontally and vertically, but it kills his KO capabilities from the top. He is also better with recovery on Dark Vault, since it goes a bit higher and noticeably longer. So by no means are his recovery options bad, especially when customs are put on.

 

[Jabejazz]

Regarding Ganon,

Engine changes are what helps Ganon in this game more than him getting actually buffed.

Overall damage for the cast has been lowered, but not for him (and most heavies), meaning he needs less reads than most to reach similar damage. New ledge mechanics help his mediocre recovery. And well, his recent buffs to his aerials make nair a really threatening move.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hardest Smash game to rank characters by tiers (hardest official Smash game anyways, not counting PM).

Seems like we'll be able to agree on a top tier (for the most part), but I don't think anyone here will ever be happy with the mid and low tiers, even when the eventual Smashboards tier list happens. I have a hard time saying that X character is low tier, because even if I do think that, said character still has things that are pretty good enough that I would considered at worst a solid mid-tier. I honestly don't see characters in this game that I can look at and say they are Pichu-bad instantly.

: no one is talking about the Swordfighter. Possibly the only low-tier we can all agree on?

 

[Kofu]

Engine changes are what helps Ganon in this game more than him getting actually buffed.

Overall damage for the cast has been lowered, but not for him (and most heavies), meaning he needs less reads than most to reach similar damage. New ledge mechanics help his mediocre recovery. And well, his recent buffs to his aerials make nair a really threatening move.

That's what I figured, but I don't think it's enough to place him in mid-tier. I dunno, I might be in the minority with that belief. I'm also having a hard time getting overy Brawl biases u less the character is clearly better (see Yoshi).

 

[Terotrous]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!​

​

Well, if this proves anything, it's that Smashboards has way more of a clue than /r/smashbros

B tier Sonic? C tier Brawler? E tier Little Mac and Gunner? F tier Palutena?!?

I can't even properly respond to this.

You guys have convinced me to give Gunner a shot in my next tournament. What set is the most viable in your opinions?

I agree that almost everything she has is useful. It's almost certainly impossible to make a single set because she has so many good options and some of them are good against different characters. For example, Down B in particular is one of the most matchup-specific, a reflector completely wrecks some characters while being useless against others. Incidentally, the ability to swap out a matchup-specific tool like a Reflector for a more general tool is quite strong, and it's something no one has really talked about. I really think Gunner is quite good in general simply because she's so versatile and has some unique moves.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys, just a fast comment.

Wanna know one of the best part about this list?

It's sparked more fast paced discussion here then I've seen in a long time.

Seriously though, even the discussion there has been a bit better too. These lists also show us which characters people need more information and education on. These really misunderstood characters need in depth guides to explain them to players and people need to step it up and enter some events to show what these guys can do.

Yeah it's not accurate, obviously not. I watched the votes pop up and down and laughed a bit myself. But this is what everyday players are thinking right now. If we want this to change and to get people educated we gotta do it ourselves.

I am curious though what the results would be if we here did something similar. If I made a poll where each of you could put characters up in each spot and complied it (just the opinions of people here in this thread) would people be interested in seeing where characters went?

 

[Terotrous]

Well, the thing is, as some people mentioned, I don't think these players are really reading our guides or even watching match videos where people play these characters. It looks like the #1 thing they're using to decide is their own experience in playing online, which is obviously never going to be accurate.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, the thing is, as some people mentioned, I don't think these players are really reading our guides or even watching match videos where people play these characters. It looks like the #1 thing they're using to decide is their own experience in playing online, which is obviously never going to be accurate.

A lot of these opinions probably come from watching streams too.

But hey, write a guide and link it on /r/smashbros. If it's well written it will get a ton of upvotes. It's worked for other characters that funny enough moved up this month.

I think people just don't understand certain characters, and heck some characters here don't even have the most basic of guides yet. I can't write them all, so somebody needs to get on that and represent their mains!

 

[Vengeance_NS]

A lot of these opinions probably come from watching streams too.

But hey, write a guide and link it on /r/smashbros. If it's well written it will get a ton of upvotes. It's worked for other characters that funny enough moved up this month.

I think people just don't understand certain characters, and heck some characters here don't even have the most basic of guides yet. I can't write them all, so somebody needs to get on that and represent their mains!

Link me to the community tier list results. I can't find them.

 

[Terotrous]

Perhaps that might work, but honestly I feel like the resources are already out there for anyone who wants to look.


Anyway, on a slightly different topic, am I the only one who feels like it's really hard to determine top 5 in 1.0.4? The only character I'm positive is there is . There's about 15 others I think might be there.

Here are the people I basically think are the contenders:



Note that someone not being here doesn't mean I think they're definitely below ALL of these characters. This is more about potentially untapped potential than anything. For example, I no longer think Sheik is top 5 after her nerfs, but she might still be top 10.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Perhaps that might work, but honestly I feel like the resources are already out there for anyone who wants to look.


Anyway, on a slightly different topic, am I the only one who feels like it's really hard to determine top 5 in 1.0.4? The only character I'm positive is there is . There's about 15 others I think might be there.

Here are the people I basically think are the contenders:



Note that someone not being here doesn't mean I think they're definitely below ALL of these characters. This is more about potentially untapped potential than anything. For example, I no longer think Sheik is top 5 after her nerfs, but she might still be top 10.

Link to the list??

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Gunna top 5? slow your roll buddy.
I want to hear about that.

 

[KingIceSonic]

Anyone else thinks that and are underated.
Especially . Her aerial game is amazing especially if you use cpound. It is one of the best specials

 

[Terotrous]

Gunna top 5? slow your roll buddy.
I want to hear about that.

Like I was saying in my previous post, Gunner is super versatile thanks to customs. So far, people have mostly been focusing on the concept of a single best Custom set for each character, but I think Gunner might well have a best custom set for each matchup. Just how this would affect the game remains to be seen because the custom meta isn't too well understood yet.

Personally I am somewhat sceptical that she would be THAT powerful, simply because I think the best characters may be able to play around her moves no matter what set she uses, but I can't count her out when she has so many tools to work with. She's also just a super unique character in terms of normals, too.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-Man in C tier?
That's...strange
I understand that his grab is pretty terrible on whiff, but that's not enough to make him C tier.

• He has excellent stage control in the form of his hydrant and trampoline
• He can transition from zoning to rush down really well because of his dangerous combo game and projectiles
• Suerb recovery in the form of side B,

And is just an overall huge pain to fight against because he has answer for every type of approach with his bonus fruit.

But that's just my opinion. What does everyone else think about his placing?

 

[ChampKing]

Pac-Man in C tier?
That's...strange
I understand that his grab is pretty terrible on whiff, but that's not enough to make him C tier.

• He has excellent stage control in the form of his hydrant and trampoline
• He can transition from zoning to rush down really well because of his dangerous combo game and projectiles
• Suerb recovery in the form of side B,

And is just an overall huge pain to fight against because he has answer for every type of approach with his bonus fruit.

But that's just my opinion. What does everyone else think about his placing?

I wouldn't take the list seriously. It has Mario 41 freaking places above Dr Mario.

 

[san.]

Gunner's fair helps get around the possibilities of getting in on him. It propels him back and he slides on the ground. There is so little landing lag that you can combo fair into fair. Down b custom lets you effectively combat projectile users. Ground moves are all great. Only bad moves comparatively are dair and ftilt.

I think default Ike is being underrated. He has clear positives over other non-projectile characters because of the high reward on many attacks. I mentioned his weakness to juggling, but he only needs 7-10 frames of prep time for him to set up reliable landings.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You know Capps I might give your voted tier list a lot of **** but at least it got the ball rolling. Maybe if you keep doing it we'll talk about chars that don't get a lot of attention (i.e. Doctor Mario, Falco, Wii Fit, ROB, etc.). I am firmly convinced I can take my Doctor to a new level and I'm sure I can find some stuff with him that's nasty.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, I don't believe people posting tier lists is really too disruptive. Once you get past the "you are so full of ****" stage it does open up discussion on the more controversial characters.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, the thing is, as some people mentioned, I don't think these players are really reading our guides or even watching match videos where people play these characters. It looks like the #1 thing they're using to decide is their own experience in playing online, which is obviously never going to be accurate.

A well written guide that gets upvoted to the front page, or a good match with an unknown characters is what is going to get these players playing online with these new characters and expand their horizons. I can remember seeing guides on a lot of the characters who moved up a bit this month. There's a good chance if work gets put in next month could have better results.

You know Capps I might give your voted tier list a lot of **** but at least it got the ball rolling. Maybe if you keep doing it we'll talk about chars that don't get a lot of attention (i.e. Doctor Mario, Falco, Wii Fit, ROB, etc.). I am firmly convinced I can take my Doctor to a new level and I'm sure I can find some stuff with him that's nasty.

That's the idea! On the subreddit people kept commenting on the characters that aren't getting discussed enough too, hopefully raising some awareness on them as well. This list isn't accurate but man does it encourage discussion!

 

[TTTTTsd]

Of course I'm just one guy but I will ALWAYS preach that comparing Dr. Mario to Mario at this point is such a bad idea. I guess they share animations and tilt frame data but they flow so differently I treat them as different characters altogether. He does stuff that Mario can't (better throw game IMO, much much much better throw game, better damage, better CQC) but he trades it for Mario's core gameplan of high mobility. His kill power absolutely dwarfs Mario's in every possible way (as does his recovery if you have customs on).

I guess the reason I don't think he's bottom 10 or anything is because his kit is relatively okay despite poor mobility. He has a lot of good tilts (not great, but good) and his damage is alright, his throw game is hilarious (D-Throw is pretty good, I thought it would be worse than Mario way back when people thought Utilt strings were a combo for Mario) but as of right now I think he gets more out of it than Mario as it's more consistent at every %. I suppose what I'm getting at is I understand he's below average but he's far from the worst in the game, what takes him to low isn't really his onstage IMO, it's his recovery. Easily gimped and pretty bad despite having respectable horizontal distance. His on-stage mobility is kind of bad too but Fullhop Pills kind of help offset it a bit. All of Doc's combos that are true are 2-3 hits, most everything else is a string or read for pretty decent damage (given his % where he'll kill someone is usually 70-90% off a good FSmash read or offstage Bair it works out pretty well). D-Throw into Uair actually hits the opponent slightly to the side meaning he can D-Throw, SH Fastfall Uair, land with no lag and pick his next option pretty quickly thanks to a REALLY good shorthop aerial game. His job is definitely unlike Mario, Doc has to play passive and get in when he can, and then run full offense with his heavy hitting moves and get the kill. Mario goes in and out, Doc tries to get in and STAY IN whether that means forcing them to come to him, or breaking in somehow. Oh and Doc Tornado is a good offensive move that beats a lot of options that it really shouldn't, but don't ask me why. Just use it and force people to respect it.

I guess it was about time I go into detail about why I think he's not THAT bad. I do think that if his run speed was slightly slower than Falco his on-stage would be way more solid and he'd be way better, but as of right now I think he's still very workable, usable, and fairly functional provided you don't approach him like Mario at all.

TL;DR underwhelming but his good aspects carry him pretty far compared to his strange downsides. Pretty balanced MUs (usually 6:4 against him, some 5:5s, maybe a few advantages?)

 

[Locke 06]

Not to bring the excitement down, but while it spurned conversation, it is incredibly unfocused and not helpful. As someone who doesn't participate a lot but reads regularly, it's just a lot of garbled mess of "X character is too low." Or "is Y character really that bad?" I think it's a good way to see how uneducated people are on certain characters (Wario, for instance, is a character I know nothing about) but really this discussion is very unfocused because of the tier list. Everyone is putting in their 2¢ on a character that is out of place, but there is very little analysis or discussion about any one point someone makes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well my huge wall of Dr. Mario analysis spurned because of that community tier list, which is the most elaborate post on the character I've seen in this thread so far.

Everyone else has just told me he's bad for a few reasons that I already know and it's kind of just stopped as fast as it's started so I figured I'd try and bring in some positive aspects about the character for a change, maybe it'll start something, or get lost in the sea.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Like I was saying in my previous post, Gunner is super versatile thanks to customs. So far, people have mostly been focusing on the concept of a single best Custom set for each character, but I think Gunner might well have a best custom set for each matchup. Just how this would affect the game remains to be seen because the custom meta isn't too well understood yet.

Personally I am somewhat sceptical that she would be THAT powerful, simply because I think the best characters may be able to play around her moves no matter what set she uses, but I can't count her out when she has so many tools to work with. She's also just a super unique character in terms of normals, too.

Gunner's fair helps get around the possibilities of getting in on him. It propels him back and he slides on the ground. There is so little landing lag that you can combo fair into fair. Down b custom lets you effectively combat projectile users. Ground moves are all great. Only bad moves comparatively are dair and ftilt.

I think default Ike is being underrated. He has clear positives over other non-projectile characters because of the high reward on many attacks. I mentioned his weakness to juggling, but he only needs 7-10 frames of prep time for him to set up reliable landings.

**** I think really highly of gunner as my previous posts indicated but I'll be the first to be cynical of top placement. Not because its impossible at this stage of the game but my impression of him doesn't yet leave him as competent as brawler.
I've played with gunners pivot ftilt as a disjoint it gets more mileage as a spacing tool then a fair amount but to me high and upwards has quite a few swordsman who will match that. Plus it has a fair amount of recovery on it to boot. Ftilt is a defensive option so far maybe something to throw in as a follow up to grenade launcher if they are in range.

Still looking to get a better idea of his MU potential.

 

[NairWizard]

@DanGR That's a fair, solid analysis. However, in the past I had to respect Rosalina's n-air much more because of the range. While the range was never the reason for its absurdity, as someone like Pikachu I had to shield more often than I wanted to just because that n-air was coming my way and most places on stage just didn't feel safe. Now, I don't have that problem, and the additional room I've gotten lets me pressure Rosalina much more easily.

On a slightly different note, the talk about Rosalina reminds me. Have @Iron Kraken and @Ray_Kalm engaged in mortal combat yet?

I super agree with the @ Locke 06 . I prefer the focused discussion over the general buzz we fall into after a tier list is posted. Shaya's post was probably the best at dissecting the list, because it gave a survey of current impressions.

I really want to go on a long diatribe on why Pikachu is the best character in the game, matchups, etc. ESAM really opened my eyes here; he was even better at the invitational than he was a few weeks before, really showing the kind of offensive and offstage pressure that Pikachu is capable of.

[pseudo-satisfaction: What can this character not do? He's light and lacks range, both quite trivial weaknesses given that being light has never really been a weakness in smash except for on Jigglypuff, who is an extreme, and that Quick Attack and Thunder Jolt artificially extend his range (crossups with f-air and Quick Attack are also very real)]

I won't go on that diatribe yet, though, because in my own playstyle I've noticed that I have somewhat of a weakness to disjointed characters with good zoning options, like Pit and Link. It's frustrating to get in as Pikachu against these characters, especially when getting in is usually rewarded by a sword to the jaw. I think I have a few solutions, but I need more experience against these characters first.

 

[Terotrous]

I super agree with the @ Locke 06 . I prefer the focused discussion over the general buzz we fall into after a tier list is posted. Shaya's post was probably the best at dissecting the list, because it gave a survey of current impressions.

I really want to go on a long diatribe on why Pikachu is the best character in the game, matchups, etc. ESAM really opened my eyes here; he was even better at the invitational than he was a few weeks before, really showing the kind of offensive and offstage pressure that Pikachu is capable of.

No offense, but aren't you just buzzing about Pikachu now? Somehow I suspect if we were all like "Pikachu is too low on that list, here's why" you'd have been fine with it.

Anyway, this topic is probably always going to be kind of unfocused. It is called competitive "impressions" after all. I still think we've accomplished a few useful things in 150+ pages.


Anyway, as for Pika specifically, I feel like he's still pretty much the same character he's always been. Fast, annoying, good recovery, UpSmash kills surprisingly early. His range and kill options are his two biggest weaknesses.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pikachu's most annoying MUs are gonna be against disjoint people like most stubby limb people in Smash historically (Not counting Smash 64 Link AKA the biggest sword jobber in Smash period). The only difference is if Pikachu gets in he naturally can capitalize more on it because the edgeguards are wayyyyy too real. The only thing that keeps Pika from being super busted is the existence of said disjoint IMO. No idea how good Pooklechu is gonna be in the long run (probably secret god but IDK) but I can definitely see swords of any kind being a pain with him.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Pikachu's most annoying MUs are gonna be against disjoint people like most stubby limb people in Smash historically (Not counting Smash 64 Link AKA the biggest sword jobber in Smash period). The only difference is if Pikachu gets in he naturally can capitalize more on it because the edgeguards are wayyyyy too real. The only thing that keeps Pika from being super busted is the existence of said disjoint IMO. No idea how good Pooklechu is gonna be in the long run (probably secret god but IDK) but I can definitely see swords of any kind being a pain with him.

Yeah, I had some matches with an ok Pikachu yesterday as Pit. The disjoints on my Nair and Ftilt helped limit a lot with what Pickachu could do. Neither move was a catch all, but they were clearly disruptive. On the ground the only thing Pikachu had to match the range was committing to a Fsmash.

 

[NairWizard]

No offense, but aren't you just buzzing about Pikachu now? Somehow I suspect if we were all like "Pikachu is too low on that list, here's why" you'd have been fine with it.

I think that you're mistaken (or have misunderstood) on multiple levels, but here's a quick few:

-I'm posting about Pikachu because I want to stress that he's very good. It has nothing to do with the tier list. I've been posting about him since the invitational.
-Of course I would have been fine with it if everyone were simultaneously talking about Pikachu's tier list position and why it's too low. That's the entire point. That would be a focused discussion. I would also be fine if we were all discussing Dr. Mario.
-I have no bias for my characters, if that's what you're suggesting. If I realize that they aren't as good as I think they are, I will switch mains for tournament. I understand those who have character bias or attachment, but I'm not one of them. My favorite character is Diddy Kong, but I don't like how he plays at all. A character is just a visual representation of a toolkit to me.
-I don't necessarily want the discussion to be about Pikachu, but I obviously have more experience with Pikachu than with everyone else, having mained him in Brawl (you can ignore the "MK" icon in my profile, that's a joke on Brawl's MK dominance). If I can post useful information in this thread, it will most often be about Pikachu, or characters I've fought against as Pikachu.

That said, I too am guilty of tier list buzz where I made a post earlier in the topic discussing characters which were out of place (in particular Mario), but looking back at that post I don't think it offered much to talk about. I don't mind that we've been buzzing, but I think that Locke_06 is right, it's not the most productive discussion.

Anyway, as for Pika specifically, I feel like he's still pretty much the same character he's always been. Fast, annoying, good recovery, UpSmash kills surprisingly early. His range and kill options are his two biggest weaknesses.

I don't think that he has problems with killing. f-smash is disjointed and reads are hard to punish (his smashes all have quick recoveries). Up-smash is as good as it ever was. Dash attack now kills, albeit at high percents. Thunder kills, you just have to make it hit Pikachu's body. f-air is often a kill confirm.

Offstage gimps are where it's really at though. This character only struggles to kill if you are afraid of his options.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, he's the same character except for a few things:
1) Quick Attack now hits you and hurts, so it's a good approach that isn't reactable
2) Better offstage game, if you can believe it
3) Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Meta Knight are essentially gone, and Diddy Kong has lost his double transcendant bananas, which is huge, as they all had unique mechanics that shut Pikachu down in various ways (MK was OK though, in fairness).

 

[TTTTTsd]

I do think it's important to walk a fine line of not making it sound like Pikachu invalidates the rest of the cast (I think he's REALLY good yeah but, I think most can at least compete with him even in losing MUs) but like every other person with stubby limbs/short range, it's always the ****ing disjoint counterpicks. I think Pit might be more scary for Pooklechu than Marth IMO due to Pit's relatively balanced kit, this is just opinion but I feel like Pit's well-roundedness helps more in the grand scheme of things in this particular MU. Stuff like having access to a better recovery than Marth is really important + a projectile that can be aimed to hit virtually anything (I think it's slightly worse for Dark Pit but not to a massive level)

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Speaking of Ganon, @Ray_Kalm just got third in a tourney yesterday.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-battle-for-power-matchmaking-video-thread.368251/page-8

Oh, and his Ganon + Robin team took doubles

 

[NairWizard]

I do think it's important to walk a fine line of not making it sound like Pikachu invalidates the rest of the cast (I think he's REALLY good yeah but, I think most can at least compete with him even in losing MUs) but like every other person with stubby limbs/short range, it's always the ****ing disjoint counterpicks. I think Pit might be more scary for Pooklechu than Marth IMO due to Pit's relatively balanced kit, this is just opinion but I feel like Pit's well-roundedness helps more in the grand scheme of things in this particular MU.

I don't think that Pikachu really invalidates anyone, to be frank. Rosalina is the kind of character who invalidates others.

But I agree, disjointed characters are the problem I've been having. Pit, Link, Shulk, in particular.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Pit is especially annoying because he has tools for virtually anything along with disjoint and moves that can stuff approaches at a lot of angles. He's the epitome of balanced in terms of attribute (good everything, not DECENT, GOOD). Coupling that with disjoint and Pikachu will probably have a bit of difficulty against him. His recovery is also stellar (Pikachu can gimp anything so this isn't as big but it's handy to have good recovery)

Link I think is annoying for anyone without a reflector. His archetype actually working in this game is what surprises me, but hey, them's the ropes. However I think Link's biggest weakness is the linearity of his projectiles. If he ever falls into any sort of pattern even once it's easy to slip through and crush if you're fast.

 

[san.]

How does Pika avoid people simply trying to hit him when they're recovering offstage? He's not going to outrange anyone if he's thinking about using aerials offstage. He might get a few hits in, but it's hard for me to picture many gimp confirms, especially if you DI properly.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

on the topic of ness yeah i personally think his revoery really is a problem. as pit i just jump at him and use gaurdian orbitars to register the hit. or refelect pk thunder and hes dead. every dang time. like i faced ness clearly better than me but i still won because recovering was basically not an option.


also zzs not top ten in my opinion. her risk and reward are just so skewed. i dunno she has great mobility witch can be a pain to catch. but she cant really go in for damage since like all her attacks are so laggy and punshable.
i swear somtimes im thinking i should never f smash, dash attack, or grab
her up smash is okay but in the same boat as pits. since its a great anti air but the lack of reasonable side hitboxes makes it only that. a great anti air.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How does Pika avoid people simply trying to hit him when they're recovering offstage? He's not going to outrange anyone if he's thinking about using aerials offstage. He might get a few hits in, but it's hard for me to picture many gimp confirms, especially if you DI properly.

I legit wondered myself. His specials seem to be his real option. Unless he catches players at a time where they can't afford to attack back. This is a qualm Kirby's edgeguard actually has where you can exploit his lack of range for safety. Again very obvious for our swordsman. I think we'll be seeing a lot of Shulk,pit,Marth and Ike possibly Links as well. For other characters however you've got to factor that other limb based characters don't have massive range either in general. Plus some recoveries being naturally vulnerable.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I legit wondered myself. His specials seem to be his real option. Unless he catches players at a time where they can't afford to attack back. This is a qualm Kirby's edgeguard actually has where you can exploit his lack of range for safety. Again very obvious for our swordsman. I think we'll be seeing a lot of Shulk,pit,Marth and Ike possibly Links as well. For other characters however you've got to factor that other limb based characters don't have massive range either in general. Plus some recoveries being naturally vulnerable.

dk's range wants a word with u. xd

 

[Locke 06]

dk's range wants a word with u. xd

FAir dunk on someone trying to edge guard you is taunt worthy stuff.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Dk is specifically why I said in general however DKs recovery is one of the easier ones to intercept.

The best edgeguard upsets is clearly that hard read counter mid air from either side.

 

[NairWizard]

How does Pika avoid people simply trying to hit him when they're recovering offstage? He's not going to outrange anyone if he's thinking about using aerials offstage. He might get a few hits in, but it's hard for me to picture many gimp confirms, especially if you DI properly.

This is obviously character dependent, but as general tools Pikachu has tjolt, thunder, up-b, and two multihit moves (f-air and b-air; d-air too, technically, but it's less useful I find). N-air and up-air are very quick and can get fast hits in, but you're right, they won't confirm KOs. You can also tech the b-air and you can DI to avoid the Thunder and f-air spike to some extent, but I believe that Pikachu has control over which direction you go when using the b-air (based on your control stick movement), and if Thunder hits Pikachu and you have any % you'll be launched to blastzone death.

Blastzones being smaller on the Wii U version benefited Pikachu a ton, because there's less room to recover from hits that are landed during edgeguarding (even though Pikachu himself dies more easily onstage, that disadvantage is canceled out by his own earlier kills off the top with up-smash, and most characters can't edgeguard him so easily offstage, so it seems to me like it's two advantages to one).

I don't think that outranging characters matters so much when you're edgeguarding (I should use this word instead of gimping, but I don't mean onstage guarding against someone on the ledge, so then again maybe gimping is a better fit). For instance, Shulk outranges almost everyone with f-air and n-air, but I still have an easier time edgeguarding as Pikachu. Same goes for Ike without Aether Drive/Tempest. Coverage of options, timing, and recovery are more important factors than range imo. You can only throw out one or two attacks before you have to recover, especially if you have a slow f-air (can't just b-air if that's your best option, or d-air, etc.; the person edgeguarding you has the control over the angle of attack, so he can change it based on your character).

Diddy's got a huge f-air but he's not going to use it against Pikachu if he wants to survive. Big characters with range like DK aren't hard to edgeguard because their frames are so massive that tjolt/thunder/b-air are almost guaranteed hits, and you can hit them repeatedly until they can't make it back. You obviously won't get the gimp every single stock, but you only need it once or twice per set to pull out ahead (if you kill 1.25x as slowly as another character, but edgeguard one stock 2.0x as fast as he would kill on that same stock, you still come out ahead overall).

Disjoints do matter, though, so again, sword characters are the problem here, at least for me. I haven't figured it out yet, and maybe he just doesn't do so well in those matchups. But I'll repeat the general trend of posts here: Pit, Link, Shulk. The swordsmen in general have been problematic, both onstage and in terms of edgeguarding.