Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Seconding guy above me. Removal of chaingrabbing alone is huge.

 

[Sugar Cookie]

F Tier:
(±0)

Okay no she should at least be D
If tournament results R count then she should be higher since nairo wins tournaments with her. She is not F. This is a horrible tier list

 

[Locke 06]

What happened to "Bowser is top 15" or "Charizard is a dark horse top tier"? DK, as most DK players will say, is serviceable (especially now that chain grabs are gone). Ganondorf has done well at tournaments. Ike has gotten some new tricks. Wario is still Wario (good). D3... was good in brawl (jury is still out, I just don't think highly of him yet). Did I miss any of the traditional heavyweight characters?

Still, these are the characters you want to balance their weaknesses yet they are getting results and are garnering attention. They hold a pretty high average as a group in terms of rankings as characters, so I don't see the problem.

PS: DK's backthrow is wonderful and kills if you don't use it too much. Also, bthrow-->bair.

Edit: Removal of chain grabbing hurt D3 because he was legitimately broken because of them.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Charizard is a beast though?
Great throws. respectful edgeguarding in the same vein as Ganondorf, only his recovery is a little stronger, and he has flamethrower to his name as well. Rock Smash as a defensive option. Flare blitz as that clutch stock steal? and again another notch in his recovery arsenal? Outside of Nair is there anything of charizard you aren't afraid of getting hit by off-stage? Everything kills plus Fly as another threat.


All those top 15 Bowser guys got wise, his default isn't top 15. His customs? Well lets see.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Yeah, this isn't a game where 1 character invalidates half the cast and otherwise determines the valadity of your character by your matchup with him. Nor is it a game with chaingrabs and 0 death combos that likewise auto invalidate cast members or otherwise make matchups unwinnable. Brawl was much worse off.

In fact, are there any match ups in this game that you all would consider "unwinnable?" (lets say what some of you may consider an 8-2 advantage or greater?)

 

[A2ZOMG]

My wishlist for heavies is basically just having super good grab games. Reliable kill throws (Ness) and combo throws (Diddy) would go a long way to making the big characters good.

Ganon's standard grab game is actually very good. D-throw on most characters combos into DA for about 22 damage and more followups at low percents, and near the edge, D-throw is basically a 50/50 into death on a correct guess. F-throw is also great at 13 damage. I would kinda be really terrified if Ganondorf actually had good grab range, because Ganondorf actually has incredible potential from his throws.

I think it's fine that Ganon has poor grab range so that our game centers more around solid footsies to reach victory. At any rate, I believe Ganon's reward on grab is actually very good, so it's not totally unbalanced.

 

[NairWizard]

I would not count Ike as a "big" character. Or Wario (obviously). They have high weight without having easily abusable frames. Ike is significantly better than all heavies imo.

But it's interesting that you mention Charizard as a dark horse Top Tier. I wonder how good Charizard really is.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsgNI_nn2c

Mr. E taking a set off of M2K's with .

!


Granted its wifi, but still. Marth isn't so bad



Also if we're talking customs then 's Dragon Rush is so good. Fantastic move, imo one of the top 5 customs in the game (we're talking Void Reflector, Counter Tree, and Hammer Spin Dash good here).

 

[Vengeance_NS]

god im having a character crisis. i want to main wario still and some of you still seem to think hes a good character. i just feel he cant complete with the top tier charaters in this game. i know its early. he does have some positives he lives forever, his reocvery is good, bike is buffed, and his waft kills at low %s which is a big deal in a 2 stock tourney setting. do we see this chracter competiting with the sheiks and diddys and moving up into bottom of high tier or top of mid?

 

[Terotrous]

What happened to "Bowser is top 15"

Bowser is probably the closest we've seen to a good traditional heavyweight in Smash. He might be top 15, but if so he's probably just barely there. I still think he's a decent character for the most part though, in part because he generally does correspond to the "once he gets in, it will hurt" model.

In fact, are there any match ups in this game that you all would consider "unwinnable?" (lets say what some of you may consider an 8-2 advantage or greater?)

I suspect there probably are some 8-2s, like Olimar vs Gunner for example. No part of that doesn't seem godawful.

"Oh hey I'm gonna sit back and pelt you with projectiles all day and when you finally get in I have a reflector"

Poor Olimar.


I do think it's probably the case that only bottom tier characters will have 8-2s, though, due to fundamental problems with their toolsets. Most other characters have at least enough tools that they should be able to achieve 7-3.

 

[Big O]

Ganon's standard grab game is actually very good. D-throw on most characters combos into DA for about 22 damage and more followups at low percents, and near the edge, D-throw is basically a 50/50 into death on a correct guess. F-throw is also great at 13 damage. I would kinda be really terrified if Ganondorf actually had good grab range, because Ganondorf actually has incredible potential from his throws.

I think it's fine that Ganon has poor grab range so that our game centers more around solid footsies to reach victory. At any rate, I believe Ganon's reward on grab is actually very good, so it's not totally unbalanced.

Yeah I know his throws are pretty good, but having a terrible grab detracts a lot from your grab game. I include the practicality of landing the grab as part of the grab game. I also agree that he would be pretty scary with a good grab. Perhaps he should be. Just my 2 cents.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Ganon's grab range is balanced in a sense but often times I feel like the fact that it's not the godlike D-Throw it was in Melee (not that this is a bad thing) makes the stunted range seem a little much. He no longer has a throw you can't DI out of period that leads to a followup at any % so at least make his grab range just a LITTLE longer (not too much obviously). However if we're talking about Ganon's competitive viability...

I think he has the potential not to win but definitely to place reliably in the hands of good players. He fares a lot better in this game through system and system alone. (Aerial lag reduction kicks copious amounts of ass but the system is his biggest benefit)

 

[Locke 06]

I would not count Ike as a "big" character. Or Wario (obviously). They have high weight without having easily abusable frames. Ike is significantly better than all heavies imo.

But it's interesting that you mention Charizard as a dark horse Top Tier. I wonder how good Charizard really is.

Well, the topic was "heavy." Is Ganondorf's frame big enough to be in the same conversation? Because I thought Ike and him were similar size (also Rosalina would fit the size description if Ganondorf is considered). I'm just reiterating things that people have posted in this thread. Charizard has been hyped as a monster that people aren't paying attention to at one point, and suffering from a big frame in the next. I have no opinion on everyone's favorite fire starter as of now (other than metal blades hit him 3 times making it deadly in that matchup against mega man).

If we're discussing the average of Bowser, Charizard, DK, and Dedede... that's the average of 4 characters. Small sample size when the roster is 50... unless you need one of them in the top 10, I think they do fine as a group of 4.

On a side note: Of all characters, I think Mega Man might be able to invalidate characters based on his mid-range game. Some characters have an insanely hard time getting through the wall without high commitment... and then they have a utilt waiting for them. That utilt is love.

Edit: Basic mega man strategy - AAA utilt.

 

[Nobie]

I think having even decently viable heavies in Smash 4 is a big step because it makes the game more likely to attract players who are good at using slower, harder-hitting characters in the first place. In Melee, it wouldn't have mattered if you were coming in from Super Street Fighter II Turbo as the greatest Zangief player ever, you were probably not going to succeed with that style of play. Ganondorf is the closest thing to a strong heavy, but even his style in Melee is more "do things that make me faster" rather than actually playing slowly. With Smash 4, however, just the idea that your Bowser can act like a Bowser instead of a heavily discounted Fox can bring in people who can perceive the game differently and foster more competition.

On a side note: Of all characters, I think Mega Man might be able to invalidate characters based on his mid-range game. Some characters have an insanely hard time getting through the wall without high commitment... and then they have a utilt waiting for them. That utilt is love.

Edit: Basic mega man strategy - AAA utilt.

I think in general Mega Man's gameplay means that judging his matchups requires a way different rubric compared to other character vs. character situations. Some of the biggest examples were already mentioned in this thread. Sonic seems to be the bane of so many characters' existence but for Mega Man it's not a frustrating matchup even if he doesn't necessarily have the advantage in it. Against Duck Hunt he can out-projectile the character within a specific range, and so Duck Hunt has to actually go on the aggression with his close-range game more often than he would against a more traditional character.

 

[Jabejazz]

Edit: Removal of chain grabbing hurt D3 because he was legitimately broken because of them.

Definitely, but then again, chaingrabbing (when it wasn't infinite) isn't that much different from getting 35+% damage out of a single DThrow as we currently see in Ness/Diddy.

This is what heavyweights could use. Not necessarily a killing throw, although it's definitely welcome. But a throw that leads into a great damage racking setup which ends into an unfavorable situation, usually off-stage.

TripleD has DThrow, which usually string into a single aerial, then nothing. He also has a pseudo chaingrab in uair spiking, but works at 0-low%. We need more out of our grab setups for sure.

That being said, heavies dealing significantly more damage than their small friends is a step in the right direction.
Nothing yet to place one of them in the higher tiers, but it's a good start.

 

[san.]

Yeah, this isn't a game where 1 character invalidates half the cast and otherwise determines the valadity of your character by your matchup with him. Nor is it a game with chaingrabs and 0 death combos that likewise auto invalidate cast members or otherwise make matchups unwinnable. Brawl was much worse off.

In fact, are there any match ups in this game that you all would consider "unwinnable?" (lets say what some of you may consider an 8-2 advantage or greater?)

As well as ridonkulous SDI negating otherwise solid movesets. Half the meta became how people SDId out of your attacks when I still played.

Ike is pretty tiny for a heavy, but then again there are characters like Wario who's even smaller.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think D3 is the only heavy that needs more out of his grab game cause it's vital to him. I don't know how they'd tweak it honestly, that's the hard part. D-Throw is already good (1.0.3's was better) but I mean, I can't think of a way to make more followups available after Fair besides additional hitstun system-wise.

Like, not only are his gordos slapped back like nothing, but his grab game has OKAY reward despite it being probably one of the better things about him in this game. Maybe they should make it set up into an aerial of choice with lower KBG so you can do nasty **** with it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah I know his throws are pretty good, but having a terrible grab detracts a lot from your grab game. I include the practicality of landing the grab as part of the grab game. I also agree that he would be pretty scary with a good grab. Perhaps he should be. Just my 2 cents.

In my personal bias, I see Ganondorf as being almost perfectly designed as he is now. Just a few tweaks to Jab and D-smash, and you have a balanced and satisfying character who is viable competitively but not overbearing.

Ganondorf is scary but fair. He has options that demand a lot of respect, but nothing comes to him for free fundamentally. In the case of someone like Ganondorf who gets rewarded very massively for a good read, I feel it's fair that his standing grab is also a risk. Mostly, I think the satisfaction of Ganondorf is having just enough options in neutral to counter relevant spacing when you know your opponent. Maybe a buff to Jab just so we don't feel completely silly against Sheik and other zoning characters who can also pressure us in close range, but other than that, I would argue he's one of the most balanced characters in the game overall.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also the work with Namco didn't really improve the balance in this game. Game And Watch is still trash-tier. Many characters have nonsensical buffs and nerfs. It's still a kusoge, just a slightly better kusoge.

No, **** like ****ing Sengoku Basara and the Marvel games are considered kusoge. They have gamebreaking infinites, horrible character MUs that make Brawl Metaknight versus the cast of Brawl seem tame, and glitches aplenty---far, far more bull**** than what Smash as a whole has had.

:v

...and AH is straight poverty.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Maybe they should make it set up into an aerial of choice with lower KBG so you can do nasty **** with it.

DThrow > RAR'd bair would be a potent kill setup.

Hey, you wouldn't see me complain about that one, but that's not necessarily what I'm asking here. D3 is a great edge-guarder, so anything that deals significant damage and leads off-stage is great.

But again, that's not very different from chaingrabbing someone from one end of a stage to another.

 

[slimjim]

In fact, are there any match ups in this game that you all would consider "unwinnable?" (lets say what some of you may consider an 8-2 advantage or greater?)

To keep on topic of heavies, I'll link the 8:2 response with what heavies have to deal with:

Villager or Diddy vs Ganon or Bowser is arguably 8:2 or worse.
Sheik vs Ganon is still atrocious.
I would argue Sheik or maybe Peach vs. Little Mac is around 8:2
I'm positive Lucario, Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy, Villager and Megaman all have 8:2 matchups against people with how polarizing their styles are. Villager especially, Lloid rocket being probably the best approach in the game. He is INCREDIBLE at invalidating your options.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To keep on topic of heavies, I'll link the 8:2 response with what heavies have to deal with:

Villager or Diddy vs Ganon or Bowser is arguably 8:2 or worse.
Sheik vs Ganon is still atrocious.
I would argue Sheik or maybe Peach vs. Little Mac is around 8:2
I'm positive Lucario, Pikachu, Sheik, Diddy, Villager and Megaman all have 8:2 matchups against people with how polarizing their styles are. Villager especially, Lloid rocket being probably the best approach in the game. He is INCREDIBLE at invalidating your options.

I disagree that Lucario technically has significantly polarizing matchups. His design though is generally very questionable. Basically everyone can handle him realistically, just his KO power gets absurd with Aura.

Diddy similarly, I'm not totally sold that his general mechanics are highly invalidating. But his really strong grab reward on top of solid bases definitely makes him a dominant character.

The others though, I could potentially believe for now, though things change significantly on a custom environment. Well actually, Villager gets more polarizing surprisingly enough.

 

[madworlder]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but big characters are sort of my thing in traditional fighting games (check out Cathy in Arcana Heart!). The biggest disadvantage of large characters in traditional fighting games is the vulnerability to a high/low mixup- since you have to block standing or crouching depending on your opponent's attack, they can be much more ambiguous with empty jump into delayed lows, instant jumping normals, and the like. Big characters tend to have more health so they're granted a little bit of leeway with wrong guesses, and they also tend to do more damage and have longer range but be a bit less maneuverable than the rest of the cast.

In Smash, there's no real equivalent to the high-low mixup, large characters are just more susceptible to being hit generally, which isn't bad, but makes both defense and offense challenging. Armor to weaker moves or partial invulnerability while using certain attacks could allow them defensive options to force opponents to commit more or be more precise when approaching them.

 

[Ffamran]

I would not count Ike as a "big" character. Or Wario (obviously). They have high weight without having easily abusable frames. Ike is significantly better than all heavies imo.

But it's interesting that you mention Charizard as a dark horse Top Tier. I wonder how good Charizard really is.

Ike's like a light heavyweight if we're going off Olympic Boxing weight divisions or a cruiserweight if we're going off of Professional Boxing weight divisions.

 

[Asdioh]

I think how you balance it is quite simple, though difficult in execution.

Heavies, due to their large size and general lack of mobility, have to take a certain amount of damage to get in. To make this balanced, once they get in, they should be able to deal an equal amount of damage.

In general, in Smash the amount of damage they can deal when they get in isn't equivalent to the damage they take getting in, so they tend to be bad. However, it's clearly possible to reverse this by just making them more powerful.

To be fair though, even if heavies deal less damage per hit (which generally isn't true, take a couple hits from ganondorf and he just evened up my 5-6 hit combo or whatever) they still survive longer due to their weight, and kill earlier due to their design. And then rage accentuates this.

Also if we're talking customs then 's Dragon Rush is so good. Fantastic move, imo one of the top 5 customs in the game (we're talking Void Reflector, Counter Tree, and Hammer Spin Dash good here).

Is there a tier list anywhere of customs? I don't actually know why any of these are good :/ Or is there a customs discussion thread, that summarizes good/bad ones concisely without me needing to read through hundreds of pages like this thread? I know amazing ampharos is currently doing that custom moves project, and I'm assuming he's going to be posting results before long, but I doubt it will have detailed insight into why every single custom is good or not.
I'm still on the custom moves grind, been doing trophy rush (30 second edition is a guaranteed custom piece every time) classic, allstar, special orders, etc for many hours and I'm pretty sure I still have less than 200... not even half of them. It's absolutely absurd and Nintendo is OUT OF THEIR MINDS UGH

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Linking Jerms Guide given A2 doesnt have the game http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-in-depth-guide-video.380580/#post-18098686
Which will likely help formulate some idea why the Shulk mains took over the thread for those who haven't gotten much experience with/against him.
Shield Shulk is the best heavy

To be fair though, even if heavies deal less damage per hit (which generally isn't true, take a couple hits from ganondorf and he just evened up my 5-6 hit combo or whatever) they still survive longer due to their weight, and kill earlier due to their design. And then rage accentuates this.

Is there a tier list anywhere of customs? I don't actually know why any of these are good :/ Or is there a customs discussion thread, that summarizes good/bad ones concisely without me needing to read through hundreds of pages like this thread? I know amazing ampharos is currently doing that custom moves project, and I'm assuming he's going to be posting results before long, but I doubt it will have detailed insight into why every single custom is good or not.
I'm still on the custom moves grind, been doing trophy rush (30 second edition is a guaranteed custom piece every time) classic, allstar, special orders, etc for many hours and I'm pretty sure I still have less than 200... not even half of them. It's absolutely absurd and Nintendo is OUT OF THEIR MINDS UGH

http://smashboards.com/threads/sugg...r-every-character.376530/page-6#post-17972046
This thread has a multitude of player insight on customs in one place.
Shulk is the best heavy.

Thinkaman and Ampharos I believe also posted their tier/impressions of who has the best or gains the most from custom moves somewhere in this thread and if I happen to find it I'll send it your way.

 

[Locke 06]

To have an invalidating matchup, you usually have to have 1 or a couple moves that the opposing character cannot realistically deal with. In Brawl, there were chain grabs and the MK tornado. According to the Brawl MU charts, Pikachu did not invalidate characters (hard counter, yes) and Sheik only invalidated Ganondorf (who is universally better than Brawl Ganondorf). Based on those matchups and character/engine changes, I don't really see either of them invalidating characters. Sheik is still great against Ganondorf, but I think Ganondorfs will be able to use her lack of killing and his better moveset to make it manageable.



I'll throw into the discussion because I think his matchups indicate that he's a very good character. He can hold his own against everyone (significant negative matchups recognized by most users are , , , probably but nobody talks about the mii's) and he can invalidate characters with his defensive game ( are possible 7:3/8:2's as the meta evolves) while having plus matchups against characters that don't have a versatile projectile or high mobility. The defense game is so potent that I'd call him the god of neutral. You can't camp him, reflectors don't do much, and approaching is tough especially when you need to be careful of his incredible punish game. Then he can edge guard with the best of em with BAir and metal blades while having a hard to edge guard recovery (DJ after up-B is beautiful, along with a no landing lag nair).

He holds his own against the top characters incredibly well. is considered even, is likely even/slightly in MM's favor, is in Sheik's favor but not too much (especially not as much after the patch), is even, is in MM's favor, is even, is in MM's favor, might be in Shulk's favor a little bit, has it tough (pellets can hit her out of her float and they cancel turnips) but it might be even due to her combo game, and 's thunder spells are cancelled by a single pellet (all but Thoron, but he'll be hard pressed to charging it to Thoron with the amount of pressure Mega Man can put on)... I think I've covered most of the consensus top characters.

He has issues, but he has serious strengths. Bias is showing a bit, but too often I get "X character just seems like a bad matchup against Mega Man" because his defense is that strong. If there are specific matchups that you disagree with, I'll be glad to explain more in depth or link you to somewhere that has a more in depth explanation.

Hail the utilt.

 

[Ffamran]

Hail the utilt.

That "utilt" is called a Shoryuken... AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS ITS TRUE NAME?! MUST I FILL EVERYONE'S DARK SOUL WITH LIGHT?!

Just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Is there a tier list anywhere of customs? I don't actually know why any of these are good :/ Or is there a customs discussion thread, that summarizes good/bad ones concisely without me needing to read through hundreds of pages like this thread? I know amazing ampharos is currently doing that custom moves project, and I'm assuming he's going to be posting results before long, but I doubt it will have detailed insight into why every single custom is good or not.
I'm still on the custom moves grind, been doing trophy rush (30 second edition is a guaranteed custom piece every time) classic, allstar, special orders, etc for many hours and I'm pretty sure I still have less than 200... not even half of them. It's absolutely absurd and Nintendo is OUT OF THEIR MINDS UGH

http://smashboards.com/threads/suggested-custom-specials-for-every-character.376530/ This is sorta close to one.

Void Reflector is transcendent, does 9%, great knockback (I think it can even kill in certain situations like Melee Shine, but don't quote me on this).

Counter Tree is basically Wobuffett. Also the sapling trips. This allows for insane stage control.

Hammer Spin Dash... A ton of hype around this but tbh I still don't know what special about it. I've even asked here once and was simply told "its good".

And yeah, idk what people mean when they say the Wii U version nets more customs...

EDIT:

http://smashboards.com/threads/sugg...r-every-character.376530/page-6#post-17972046
This thread has a multitude of player insight on customs in one place.
Shulk is the best heavy.

Thinkaman and Ampharos I believe also posted their tier/impressions of who has the best or gains the most from custom moves somewhere in this thread and if I happen to find it I'll send it your way.

Damn your .

 

[Lavani]

That "utilt" is called a Shoryuken... AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS ITS TRUE NAME?! MUST I FILL EVERYONE'S DARK SOUL WITH LIGHT?!

Just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.

That's what that type of move would generally be referred to as. In 's case it's specifically called the Mega Upper.

Or we could just call it utilt since that's shorter.

Void Reflector is transcendent, does 9%, great knockback (I think it can even kill in certain situations like Melee Shine, but don't quote me on this).

Hammer Spin Dash... A ton of hype around this but tbh I still don't know what special about it. I've even asked here once and was simply told "its good".

Void Reflector doesn't kill until pretty late grounded, but fortunately it's no weaker in the air!

Hammer Spin Dash makes the jump at the beginning a ton higher and buries opponents it lands on. So it gains vertical reach, aids recovery, can potentially bury, at the cost of...

 

[Locke 06]

That "utilt" is called a Shoryuken... AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS ITS TRUE NAME?! MUST I FILL EVERYONE'S DARK SOUL WITH LIGHT?!

Just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.

That's what that type of move would be generally referred to. In 's case it's specifically called the Mega Upper.

Or we could just call it utilt since that's shorter.

Yes, but this way we can compare it to Snake's broken utilt (RIP), and also break down Mega Man's basic strategy as follows:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA utilt.

Edit: sidenote - With equipment (+80 attack, crit, and increased launching ability) critical utilt does 104% and KO's the majority of the cast at 0%. Equipment should definitely be legal.

 

[Ffamran]

That's what that type of move would be generally referred to. In 's case it's specifically called the Mega Upper.

Or we could just call it utilt since that's shorter.

Mega Upper? I have never heard it being called that. It's been called the Shoryuken since Mega Man X2. Utilt is so lame though, I mean, shouting "utilt" is nothing compared to 'SHORYUKEN". It'd be like calling Captain Falcon's Knee "fair"... Woo... fair... But Knee? Hell yeah! EAT KNEE!

Yes, but this way we can compare it to Snake's broken utilt (RIP), and also break down Mega Man's basic strategy as follows:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA utilt.

Edit: sidenote - With equipment (+80 attack, crit, and increased launching ability) critical utilt does 104% and KO's the majority of the cast at 0%. Equipment should definitely be legal.

Snake's utilt ain't got history, therefore, it ain't getting a name compared to the Shoryuken.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Mega Upper is from MvC2, no?

Void Reflector doesn't kill until pretty late grounded, but fortunately it's no weaker in the air!

Hammer Spin Dash makes the jump at the beginning a ton higher and buries opponents it lands on. So it gains vertical reach, aids recovery, can potentially bury, at the cost of...

Ah okay thats what I was thinking about the shine.

Also on Spin Dash... holy hell.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega Upper? I have never heard it being called that. It's been called the Shoryuken since Mega Man X2. Utilt is so lame though, I mean, shouting "utilt" is nothing compared to 'SHORYUKEN". It'd be like calling Captain Falcon's Knee "fair"... Woo... fair... But Knee? Hell yeah! EAT KNEE!


Snake's utilt ain't got history, therefore, it ain't getting a name compared to the Shoryuken.

Yes. In hype situations, Shoryuken is definitely the way to go. You don't shout utilt. You mutter it under your breath while you're getting star KO'd or camera KO'd. It's mostly for annoyance when you describe your strategy as lemons for days and then utilt. Shoryuken is too flashy for Mega Man's cold annoying playstyle.

Mega Upper is the real name of the move based off of his appearance in MvC2.

Edit: Back to the subject at hand though... Mega Man is really good. I'm not sure where he lands because of his issues, but he's darn good.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You are aware Megamans pellets only extend into mid range. Where Shulk has little issue being on a general level with due to a) Speed b) Jump. Also in that he can counter the pellets on the ground, and this will launch him forward with Vision and that Megaman cannot block this, and has to hope he has enough distance that he can attempt a spot dodge.
In addition to Shulks N-air being notorious at canceling projectiles at which pellets are not exempt, as well as Metal blade being caught. In the case of customs again, power vision off a stray pellet can literally kill Megaman because Power vision is ********. Outside of that Megaman is again outspaced when it comes to B/F air. Back Slash can Mini hop over F-smash as well if you attempt it as a landing trap (never mind Vision on top of that).

N-air beats out metal blade as well, and F-air definitely stops crash bomb, probably N-air as well. Given N-air is Shulks bread and butter if your move gets stopped by that, it'll certainly struggle given the on-stage spam N-air is capable of. With general spacing Megamans utilt has issues being a probability to begin given what Shulk has to work with. I don't see evidence to start claiming advantages.


As far as Kirby vs Mega? Kirby can spam his Jab to get out of everything but I believe F-smash? Jigglypuff doesn't replicate the same feat off the top of my head. Granted Rush being Frame 1 might very well be a substantial problem for kirby given D-air,F-air and Jab would be beatable.I'd hold on to that match up for now.

I am a fan of mega, given he was the initial plan for a main before Shulks release. I am certainly optimistic of his tools for the Diddy MU.

 

[Ffamran]

Yes. In hype situations, Shoryuken is definitely the way to go. You don't shout utilt. You mutter it under your breath while you're getting star KO'd or camera KO'd. It's mostly for annoyance when you describe your strategy as lemons for days and then utilt. Shoryuken is too flashy for Mega Man's cold annoying playstyle.

Mega Upper is the real name of the move based off of his appearance in MvC2.

Wait, so if Mega Man X was playable, it'd be called the "Shoryuken" instead of "Mega Upper" because Mega Man is in this game. What about the other Mega Men? What would their utilts be called? What if they don't have the Shoryuken/Mega Upper?! WHAT ABOUT DEADPOOL?! WILL HIS BE CALLED A SHORYUKEN TOO?! The world needs to know!

 

[Luco]

Hahaha, I love shoryuken though.

By the way, I get the feeling rage was meant to be the mechanic that balanced heavyweights. It's not a perfect system; but I certainly think that rage in conjunction with the other mechanics has given most heavyweights a chance to basically act like Lucario and kill you at 60% off a good read from 150%

 

[NotLiquid]

Hammer Spin Dash makes the jump at the beginning a ton higher and buries opponents it lands on. So it gains vertical reach, aids recovery, can potentially bury, at the cost of...

Hammer isn't as potent for combos and damage racking. Regular nets a free 30% combo anytime while Hammer is 20% at best.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Brawl Snake's utilt is called "broken," I believe.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Locke 06]

You are aware Megamans pellets only extend into mid range. Where Shulk has little issue being on a general level with due to a) Speed b) Jump. Also in that he can counter the pellets on the ground, and this will launch him forward with Vision and that Megaman cannot block this, and has to hope he has enough distance that he can attempt a spot dodge.
In addition to Shulks N-air being notorious at canceling projectiles at which pellets are not exempt, as well as Metal blade being caught. In the case of customs again, power vision off a stray pellet can literally kill Megaman because Power vision is ********. Outside of that Megaman is again outspaced when it comes to B/F air. Back Slash can Mini hop over F-smash as well if you attempt it as a landing trap (never mind Vision on top of that).

N-air beats out metal blade as well, and F-air definitely stops crash bomb, probably N-air as well. Given N-air is Shulks bread and butter if your move gets stopped by that, it'll certainly struggle given the on-stage spam N-air is capable of. With general spacing Megamans utilt has issues being a probability to begin given what Shulk has to work with. I don't see evidence to start claiming advantages.


As far as Kirby vs Mega? Kirby can spam his Jab to get out of everything but I believe F-smash? Jigglypuff doesn't replicate the same feat off the top of my head. Granted Rush being Frame 1 might very well be a substantial problem for kirby given D-air,F-air and Jab would be beatable.I'd hold on to that match up for now.

I am a fan of mega, given he was the initial plan for a main before Shulks release. I am certainly optimistic of his tools for the Diddy MU.

I mentioned Shulk being an unfavorable matchup for Mega Man, so I'll get that out of the way first. Your priority aerials mess with spacing a ton. (Edit: I see how the misunderstanding came about. I'll edit my original post to make it more clear)

Very aware of Mega Man's mid-range and limited long-range capability. At the edge of lemon range, I'm pretty sure you can't reach with vision. That said, Megaman can jump upon countering the projectile (mobility with the pellets is the real reason why they're so good). Jump --> utilt. I know you have that sudden lunging counter, so I don't actually know if that works in reality. But counters are generally high risk high reward moves so it's not something you throw out a ton (as much as lemons).

How ******** is power vision? Pellets do 2% with no knockback. This is a real question, as if it's a legitimate kill move on countering that then I'm surprised.

If you catch metal blades, that's usually to your disadvantage. You've eliminated all of your options while leaving me to lemon spam you to death. :/ You no longer have your Nair in that case, so good luck approaching. The fact that metal blades get canceled by lemons allows for that advantage.

Fsmash landing traps can still be used because it has range. Also, if you vision it, that's a high risk high reward because I can keep charging until your active frames are done. Backslash is a risky move with utilt waiting.

Edit: Also, Nair loses to RAR BAir if I meet you in the air because NAir starts so low.

Kirby can spam his jab all he wants. He's just standing there playing defensive, which is not something you want to do against Mega Man. It's like Rosalina using gravity pull, you've lost initiative and Mega Man can mixup at will while you're still expecting pellets. Kirby has trouble getting in (rush is frame 1, but not invincible on activation and Kirby's jabs/fair/dair work fine against Mega Man) which is his issue against everyone. SH BAir is potent in this matchup because he likes to jump in. He needs to get in and stay in, which makes him more vulnerable to utilt than Puff even though he is KO'd at ~80%.