Character Competitive Impressions

[InfinityCollision]

Flavor of the month tier lists continue to amuse and astound.

Mario

It's been said already, but your diatribes on Mario are the actual worst thing in this thread.

Sometimes I forget exists because few people play.

Thoughts? Feelings? Impressions?

Less ridiculous than Brawl (thanks to changes to Wario himself, the rest of the cast, and the engine itself) but also doesn't have to deal with equally ridiculous grab release shenanigans. Don't think I'd put him in the ever-crowded "top 15" grouping, but top half of the cast feels reasonable.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You guys have convinced me to give Gunner a shot in my next tournament. What set is the most viable in your opinions @ ChronoPenguin and @san. ?

****ing everything?
Dudes custom move pool is probably the most disgusting in the game in terms of having actually decent options in all 4 slots I mean we Shulks were arguing our 6 slots but to make 6 slots with Gunner would be a lie.

That being said.
Im using Grenade Launcher, and Flame Pillar, with Cannon Uppercut, and bomb drop at the moment.
I can drop Launcher for Charge Shot easily, and Lazer Blaze is still good (its Fox/ and Falcos Blaster mixed basically). Flame Pillar is easily swapped for Stealth burst and Gunner missile. I've played with Arm rocket a lot, and while I haven't touched Lunar Launch much I have no doubts of its use.
The weakest special is probably absorbing Vortex just because it is more Niche, bomb drop gives me an interesting edgeguard, and a small deterrent as well on stage. Though Grenade launcher is stupidly good.

I've linked Grenade Launcher into Dashes and F-airs so far. Fairs into Dtilts so far. Its all kinds of stupid crap I haven't fully explored because Shulk, and playing around with Pit (good), Kirby (meh), Rob(??), Brawler(mah boy) and Ganon(just fun). Even still I'm debating adding him as the pocket character because his offerings are completely different from Shulk, but he is volatile. He may have the best coverage of options as a 2nd for Marth,Shulk,Ike and I believe MK short of just throwing in Yoshi or Fox. Do a U-throw, go for your U-air, see how they handle this long ass disjointed multi-hit air-dodge catching beast.

 

[DavemanCozy]

A TIER:

(+4)

I don't want to open pandora's box here again, but Mario top 10? Did /r/smashbros find the time portal back to Melee 2002?

Not dissing the main star of the show, Mario is solid, but no way is he better than Fox, Sonic and Greninja.

C Tier:

(+2)(-13)

D Tier:

(+3)(-8)

E Tier:

(-3)

F Tier:
(-3)(-2)

Personally, I think all of the above are underrated. Specially Falco, Wario, and Peach. The others, to a minor extent.

 

[BSP]

People can bring in evidence of tournament appearances (i.e. thinkaman losing to one, vex losing to one) or other doings well, and it's worthless and starts a heated argument, because of you.

Are there videos of this?

Heck, are there any high level Mario videos out there?

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

No wonder Mario got nerfs that he didn't need in the most recent patch >_>

 

[Frostav]

Umm you can? Make better reads?
Generally the worst character in the game is specifically the worst because of their matchups against the people at the top, not everyone else. Obviously if Sheik + Charizard is the meta, everyone plays sheik or Charizard and your character has the worst Sheik & Charizard matchups, then your character is bad in the meta and will probably be unfavored just because of those 2 characters.

No you can't. Kirby in Melee will never win against a Fox if both players are playing at the absolute best they can and using all the tech skill they have. Fox simply is objectively better than Kirby in every way, and the Kirby player would have to be TAS-perfect to even stand a chance.

Melee and Brawl are both unbalanced kusoges. Hopefully Sm4sh isn't. Though it probably will be in the end.

And tiers in other FG's are not determined solely by matchups but also by how good the character at raw fundamentals like offense and defense. You can have a low-tier who just happens to have a godlike matchup in their favor towards a high-tier, it's just that the low-tier sucks otherwise.

 

[smashmachine]

Well, you guys should keep in mind that the list that Capps just posted was from upvotes/downvotes on Reddit, so bias/current events (Diddy pls)/hivemind or whatever played a big part in this.

yeah but even then, how the hell was the gap between Mario and Dr. Mario that big

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well, you guys should keep in mind that the list that Capps just posted was from upvotes/downvotes on Reddit, so bias/current events (Diddy pls)/hivemind or whatever played a big part in this.

I mentioned that in the bottom of the post too even

 

[Turokman5896]

I'm confused about why Mario's placement is considered that bad. He can combo to medium high percents, had good mobility, low landing lag on most aerials, specials that cover all the bases, and a very good grabs.

Sure he doesn't excel at any stat in particular, but he can adapt fairly well and has a multitude of tools.

Probably shouldn't be considered outright better than fox IMO, but is still up there.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm confused about why Mario's placement is considered that bad. He can combo to medium high percents, had good mobility, low landing lag on most aerials, specials that cover all the bases, and a very good grabs.

Sure he doesn't excel at any stat in particular, but he can adapt fairly well and has a multitude of tools.

Probably shouldn't be considered outright better than fox IMO, but is still up there.

Mainly his recovery. Mario easily has one of the worst recoveries in the game, and it is very easy to gimp.

 

[Oddyesy]

yeah but even then, how the hell was the gap between Mario and Dr. Mario that big

I dunno man, some people are pretty
dum

 

[ChronoPenguin]

No you can't. Kirby in Melee will never win against a Fox if both players are playing at the absolute best they can and using all the tech skill they have. Fox simply is objectively better than Kirby in every way, and the Kirby player would have to be TAS-perfect to even stand a chance.

Melee and Brawl are both unbalanced kusoges. Hopefully Sm4sh isn't. Though it probably will be in the end.

And tiers in other FG's are not determined solely by matchups but also by how good the character at raw fundamentals like offense and defense. You can have a low-tier who just happens to have a godlike matchup in their favor towards a high-tier, it's just that the low-tier sucks otherwise.

Keyword Melee.
Everything I said is in context of Smash 4.
Part of this is AT's.
The thing with "AT's" as the community often labels certain things, if when the dev doesn't take them into consideration, they generally don't affect other characters equally. Now Kirbys faults extend past that, but what I am saying is that the fundamental premise of Smash 4 allows Kirby some measure of viability.
If anything Kirbys viability here with be more about being nothing special relative to everyone, then against "the top".
I wouldn't say for instance Sheik vs Kirby is a bad matchup certainly not right now based on the games I've seen, the games I've played, and what I can currently hypothesize. However Sheik is seen as one of the better characters in the game in the upper section of the roster at this current moment.

Now I think Shulk zones Kirby out so hard when optimally played Kirby aint ****, but is Shulk top tier?
Well some are starting to think so but im getting ahead of myself.

Now Kirby isn't a confirmed low tier or anything I'm simply saying that in the current state of Smash 4.
Just make better reads. Nothings really been *confirmed* as a garbage match up.

Sword Fighter is seen by pretty much everyone including myself to be less then stellar, but his spacing options are of note against well...Sheik again. The fact that he has access to both a cape or a counter with that cape having matchup significance for sure, because if he capes Pits recovery? GG. He's got his own quirks that don't mean "we are going to steam roll him" because you are at the top of the list.
Truthfully no one knows enough yet to give you the precise answer you are looking for, but things do not seem to be heading towards that level of difference between characters.

 

[NAKAT]

Samus has some options that literally don't have direct or indirect counters (Z-air, mostly), and her survivability is top 5 in every Smash game, so the lower reward Samus has on some of her moves is trivialized to an extent when Samus actually forces the game to be played totally differently in some cases and when she's actually by design a character that is immune to a lot of common abuses.

That is not Mario by a longshot. And for that matter, he doesn't even outdamage Samus.

Samus at any rate is underrated. It's pretty hard to be a bad character in this game if you are immune to edgeguarding and 70% of conventional juggle traps, which is an accurate description of Smash 4 Samus. On top of the fact Charge Shot is RIDICULOUS. Ganondorf with Charge Shot instead of Warlock Punch? Sign me up for S tier!

Do you understand how frustrating and unhelpful it is to just state an opinion that isn't backed by anything? And you're missing the bigger point. NAKAT just randomly saying "Mario is mad good" isn't what I'd call an opinion. It's a statement, and it helps nobody without context. Yes I know he plays Mario in tournament. What exactly happened in his matches? Did he lose to Dabuz's Rosalina in tournament because of a skill difference, because he didn't use enough B-throw, or maybe just because Mario's recovery and landing options are terrible? That's the stuff that needs to be talked about.

I used Mario once in tournament and did well. Didn't win that match though oh well. The way your present yourself and ask for information isn't exactly in the best manner. (were)

I don't really think this voting system will produce accurate results to be honest, but I commend the effort.

 

[NairWizard]

I used Mario once in tournament and did well. Didn't win that match though oh well. The way your present yourself and ask for information isn't exactly in the best manner. (were)

The guy has a lot of passion for his character, so while I agree that he's been going about asking in the wrong way, as long as you're in this topic I'd like to request on his behalf that you explain what you think makes Mario good. It would probably be interesting insight for all of us.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mentioned that in the bottom of the post too even

Hey man, I know it's community but I'm still allowed to say they must be uh....thinking in unique ways to put DK in ****ing F tier. And Doc but I don't want to start on that.

S Tier is mostly right, they have that down. But....yeah. I suppose that's the thing, community tierlists are mixed bags.

And yeah NAKAT not to be a bother but I would like to know too. I play Dr. Mario so I guess understanding more about Mario would help me if I ever need to switch/counter-pick.

 

[Shaya]

I'm going to break this up into just three parts and go from there. Variable differences / standard deviations aren't necessarily painting the best picture as the scope of overall game understanding is small. Overall gist of it from my opinion is big contrasts to our understanding is wifi dominance related.

High Tier
(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

Okay, so everyone agrees diddy is god, and that even with nerfs sheik is likely still in the inner-circle of best characters. I'm probably not too phased by Sheik being top 3 at this current stage (this could easily change with other balance patches) with her current set, she can really struggle to get the kill and her overall amazing capabilities aren't too extreme in any way, unlike Diddy.
Falcon obviously seems out of place, but likely not by much, followed by Mario. Mario is extremely potent on Wifi, one of the few characters I abhor coming up against due to spacing/reaction being toned down in place of Mario's relatively slippery frame data (The Roll Master), I think it's fair to put him in the middle regions with the current disparity of opinions.
I think ever since the patch Greninja has been quite poor, but as Japan was the only region focusing on him I'm not sure if he's still even relevant there, but I feel he's on the downwards trend.
ROB is a monster on wifi and vinnie has results as well as a little bit of Chibo. A good looking Diddy match up means a lot, but I'm not sure its enough to confirm him in the upper caste.
Shulk is amazing and probably is in the high regions now, a large plethora of straight number buffs to everything should be noted by any budding designers/thinkers because this is why small number changes can have HUGE IMPACTS
Sonic being on the lower ends is very surprising, but that will definitely change.

Middle Tier
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11) (-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14) (+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

Dedede is the best heavy on wifi by far. Gordos are head to deal with, his disjointed range is hard to deal with, his poor frame data on moves is less impacting. I can see why he's there.
Pikachu is the sore thumb here, definitely looking like he shouldn't be anywhere near these other "bad" characters
I'm waiting for any indication that Bowser Jr isn't horrendous off of wifi, his custom specials are very abusive though, but I doubt this is considered.
Peach dropping a lot makes sense due to her losing quite a few cheesy things/bug fixes occurring. Her current "tier" is fine for now although it would seem by most people's standards she's pretty good.
Mii Brawler is weird, are people considering him with customs or not? I don't know if he's in the upper mid without that, but eh, he seems pretty good otherwise.
Finally some differentiation seen between Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit. Good.

Low Tier
(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1) (-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)

Mac plummeting as people get over his gimmicky strengths and learn to abuse his arguably under compensated weaknesses. I don't know if it's fair to call him low tier yet, though.
Donkey Kong and Charizard not getting much love as fatties yet have actual tournament results which I'm pretty sure Dedede and Bowser do not. But alas the fatties which are more react/frame trap based over just spamming very hard to deal with moves (i.e. like little mac) are garnering higher opinions from the general public.
All I can say about Luigi is that I'm pretty sure he's better than Mario and Doc. BUT he could still be in those lower regions, I'm not entirely sure.
Meta Knight is rising and he'll likely continue to rise. His down air and up-air got noticeable range buffs (2 units is big), enough for me to be able to consistently space those moves now in safe-ish ways, that combined with getting some kill moves in nair and bair means he's significantly stronger than his pre-1.04 state. People's opinions right now may or may not reflect that properly.
Palutena and Falco then look like the two odd characters towards the bottom of the list that we know people don't understand very well. I think it won't take long for people to consistently see why Falco isn't worthless, and in Palutena's case she's "good" without customs but a lot less abusive, although her down throw, dash attack and back air are top tier moves (definitely top tier moves) which needs more time to settle; although without customs she may forever be doomed to not getting much out of those amazing moves.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm confused about why Mario's placement is considered that bad. He can combo to medium high percents, had good mobility, low landing lag on most aerials, specials that cover all the bases, and a very good grabs.

Sure he doesn't excel at any stat in particular, but he can adapt fairly well and has a multitude of tools.

Probably shouldn't be considered outright better than fox IMO, but is still up there.

Mario's combos are character and percent specific, in several matchups can either be interrupted by fast N-airs or can be jumped out of. Whenever Mario's combos don't work, he has some of the lowest damage per hit in the game. This isn't helped that Mario's best KO options, F-smash and gimps, are both very conditional, while his more reliable KO options, U-smash and D-smash, are both on the weaker side, usually KOing fresh closer to the 120 range.

That and without Gust Cape, he really doesn't have good options to get out of juggles or avoid edgeguards. Combined with Mario's high reliance on his midair jump to successfully recover, he's overall one of the least durable characters in the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think people aren't really investing into Doc all that much but it doesn't surprise me. I thought he was pretty underwhelming at first too until the removal of vectoring and the GC controller. Both of those in tandem was like...a lot better, def. still low tier but I wouldn't put him in the bottom 10 anymore. Of course my opinion is sort of biased and it's really hard to say WHERE I'd put him but it's nowhere near worst in the game atm.

One thing I can definitely say is that Falco is definitely NOT low tier or even close to that location......

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol pro players making the comment section again. awsome.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'll take the liberty of condensing the list into 4 based on however I feel like splicing it without changing the order of characters.

Top:
Honestly arguable, and honestly I don't even feel like discussing a top given the amount of competition they *actually* have that slot but have been handed. I can pull out 4 characters out of the below list and there is probably more that can gun for this position and for all we know with zero changes to the game, this "top" wouldn't be top at all.
High:
Mario's alright but Shulk is the real king here. As he is now, I do not see Top out of his limits, theres something too potent about him and it becomes all too apparent with customs when he can exaggerate himself even further (wassup power vision). Ridiculous range, completely competitive speed, follow ups galore, he has KO flexibility on both sides of the equation and Utilt has disgusting Knockback growth that has to always be respected. Mario will probably fall into the mid tier but honestly I feel better about Mario then some characters in here. I'll have to say, I don't think that heavily of Bowser and DDD, two fatties but neither of them actually show themself to be all that. Im scared to **** of Charizard, Im happy when I see Bowser. I can't really condone Bowsers large frame, slow hitboxes, his especially counter-bait moveset, especially in a Tier with Shulk. Combine this with his general MU's. Yoshi is going to beat him, Ness is going to beat him as is Fox and Marth merely off the top of my head. I like the idea of multiple of these characters being "high" at least in this early state of the game such as Jigglypuff and Link. Mind you Link has pretty much no representation to his name but I remain optimistic that his game has solidified.


Mid:
All I care about in this list is Brawler, Pit, Peach and Ike. Given the *current* state of things I believe that Peach operates on the same level as the above sections characters. Brawler has his results, and Pit hangs with Marth until proven otherwise great edgeguard potential a great Ftilt for one, and a grab game that creates results. I would not blink for a second if Gunner became high.

Low:

If I disregard order within the tiers it feels a lot less..jarring? Though I still disagree with many.

Edit: ****ing Shaya beat me to it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't really think this voting system will produce accurate results to be honest, but I commend the effort.

I agree this is not going to end up totally accurate however I think it's worth looking at what the general masses are saying about characters. It lets us know which characters people need to be educated about, characters a lot of people are playing, and just how the general mass feels about the game at the moment. All worthy things to at least ponder.

 

[Chuva]

That Gunner placement is distressing. Like, did people even try training mode with them?

Having a character that is a disjoint hitbox fest + Arcfire on steroids that low is unacceptable, and I'm not even mentioning all their good attributes.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

Not bad....
Sonic too low... Ganon too high... And wtf is with Dr. Mario's spot lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think people aren't really investing into Doc all that much but it doesn't surprise me. I thought he was pretty underwhelming at first too until the removal of vectoring and the GC controller. Both of those in tandem was like...a lot better, def. still low tier but I wouldn't put him in the bottom 10 anymore. Of course my opinion is sort of biased and it's really hard to say WHERE I'd put him but it's nowhere near worst in the game atm.

One thing I can definitely say is that Falco is definitely NOT low tier or even close to that location......

i can say i really enjoy playing mario and get some good results. and transitioning to doc after patch just for a fun match. i can say hes defimitly more threating but i still miss down throw combos lol.

 

[NairWizard]

If Pikachu isn't the best character in the game with customs off then I'll eat my... blast, I've consumed my entire wardrobe already.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If Pikachu isn't the best character in the game with customs off then I'll eat my... blast, I've consumed my entire wardrobe already.

well then lets move on to body part bar ur hand since u need them to smash. unless ur okay with ur feet of course. xd

 

[Chuva]

If Pikachu isn't the best character in the game with customs off then I'll eat my... blast, I've consumed my entire wardrobe already.

I never imagined cloth and leather tasted that good.

 

[Lavani]

Donkey Kong and Charizard not getting much love as fatties yet have actual tournament results which I'm pretty sure Dedede and Bowser do not.

CT Vex won an early CT tournament using Dedede and Bowser. Based on Mario and ROB's rankings I'd venture a guess that a lot of the rankings are in fact due to Clash Tournaments viewers.

I think ever since the patch Greninja has been quite poor, but as Japan was the only region focusing on him I'm not sure if he's still even relevant there, but I feel he's on the downwards trend.

This may or may not be accurate as I've yet to find evidence of it, but I read today that Nietono apparently dropped Greninja.

I still think he's quite good despite the nerfs. This list actually has him higher than I'd rank him, but I can't see him any lower than top 20, if not top 15. Greninja players just need to do a lot of adapting around a wildly changed moveset, but he still has the tools necessary to succeed. Interestingly, he's also the only character I know of that escaped with his hitstun cancel to 1.0.4.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I never imagined cloth and leather tasted that good.

meh my clothing only tastes as goood as the condements on it.

 

[Ffamran]

This is probably a broad question, but in recent tournaments which characters were MIA?

 

[CT_Emerl]

Link seems to be buffed a lot from his previously installment and is probably the best demo character so far from what I've played of him against level 9 cpu's(Outside of exploiting the villager's shovel grab). I dunno, just my two cents.

I agree

 

[FlareHabanero]

I still think he's quite good despite the nerfs. This list actually has him higher than I'd rank him, but I can't see him any lower than top 20, if not top 15. Greninja players just need to do a lot of adapting around a wildly changed moveset, but he still has the tools necessary to succeed. Interestingly, he's also the only character I know of that escaped with his hitstun cancel to 1.0.4.

People saying Greninja is worse are over exaggerating (Kirby between 64 and Melee is a classic example of worse nerfs), and not everything was nerfed to begin with. Up aerial is arguably better since you can better combo it into another up aerial or other attacks like a forward smash or up tilt, and up aerial spiking is easier to excecute. Shadow Sneak (especially in the Wii U version due to the more subtle shadow) is more reliable due to being overall faster. Down smash is more useful due to the increase in power. I think the only nerf that actually hurts Greninja is the up smash, since it's now no longer an easy finisher and you need to be more strategic with it.

 

[Gawain]

I'm going to break this up into just three parts and go from there. Variable differences / standard deviations aren't necessarily painting the best picture as the scope of overall game understanding is small. Overall gist of it from my opinion is big contrasts to our understanding is wifi dominance related.

High Tier
(+8) (±0) (-2) (-1)(+1) (-2) (0) (+4) (-3)(-1) (-1) (+16) (+14) (+2)

Okay, so everyone agrees diddy is god, and that even with nerfs sheik is likely still in the inner-circle of best characters. I'm probably not too phased by Sheik being top 3 at this current stage (this could easily change with other balance patches) with her current set, she can really struggle to get the kill and her overall amazing capabilities aren't too extreme in any way, unlike Diddy.
Falcon obviously seems out of place, but likely not by much, followed by Mario. Mario is extremely potent on Wifi, one of the few characters I abhor coming up against due to spacing/reaction being toned down in place of Mario's relatively slippery frame data (The Roll Master), I think it's fair to put him in the middle regions with the current disparity of opinions.
I think ever since the patch Greninja has been quite poor, but as Japan was the only region focusing on him I'm not sure if he's still even relevant there, but I feel he's on the downwards trend.
ROB is a monster on wifi and vinnie has results as well as a little bit of Chibo. A good looking Diddy match up means a lot, but I'm not sure its enough to confirm him in the upper caste.
Shulk is amazing and probably is in the high regions now, a large plethora of straight number buffs to everything should be noted by any budding designers/thinkers because this is why small number changes can have HUGE IMPACTS
Sonic being on the lower ends is very surprising, but that will definitely change.

Middle Tier
(+2) (-3) (-3) (+2) (+6) (+11) (-2)(+2)(±0)(+8)(-13) (-8) (-5) (+2) (+14) (+3) (+9) (+18) (-8) (-1) (-1) (-8) (+1)

Dedede is the best heavy on wifi by far. Gordos are head to deal with, his disjointed range is hard to deal with, his poor frame data on moves is less impacting. I can see why he's there.
Pikachu is the sore thumb here, definitely looking like he shouldn't be anywhere near these other "bad" characters
I'm waiting for any indication that Bowser Jr isn't horrendous off of wifi, his custom specials are very abusive though, but I doubt this is considered.
Peach dropping a lot makes sense due to her losing quite a few cheesy things/bug fixes occurring. Her current "tier" is fine for now although it would seem by most people's standards she's pretty good.
Mii Brawler is weird, are people considering him with customs or not? I don't know if he's in the upper mid without that, but eh, he seems pretty good otherwise.
Finally some differentiation seen between Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit. Good.

Low Tier
(-18) (-3) (-3) (+10) (+6) (+2) (1) (-4)(±0)(-7)(-3)(-16)(-2)(±0)

Mac plummeting as people get over his gimmicky strengths and learn to abuse his arguably under compensated weaknesses. I don't know if it's fair to call him low tier yet, though.
Donkey Kong and Charizard not getting much love as fatties yet have actual tournament results which I'm pretty sure Dedede and Bowser do not. But alas the fatties which are more react/frame trap based over just spamming very hard to deal with moves (i.e. like little mac) are garnering higher opinions from the general public.
All I can say about Luigi is that I'm pretty sure he's better than Mario and Doc. BUT he could still be in those lower regions, I'm not entirely sure.
Meta Knight is rising and he'll likely continue to rise. His down air and up-air got noticeable range buffs (2 units is big), enough for me to be able to consistently space those moves now in safe-ish ways, that combined with getting some kill moves in nair and bair means he's significantly stronger than his pre-1.04 state. People's opinions right now may or may not reflect that properly.
Palutena and Falco then look like the two odd characters towards the bottom of the list that we know people don't understand very well. I think it won't take long for people to consistently see why Falco isn't worthless, and in Palutena's case she's "good" without customs but a lot less abusive, although her down throw, dash attack and back air are top tier moves (definitely top tier moves) which needs more time to settle; although without customs she may forever be doomed to not getting much out of those amazing moves.

I'm curious, how does Falcon seem out of place to you? Relative to the other characters in this game he's got really good tools for most situations and he's pretty brutal once he gets the advantage. His only real weakness is recovery and his defensive options are somewhat limited. He's as good as he was in Melee compared to that cast vs this cast imo.

 

[madworlder]

I have two questions that I want to ask, as I'm someone new to the game and series. Why is Duck Hunt always ranked so high, and why is WFT always ranked so low?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have two questions that I want to ask, as I'm someone new to the game and series. Why is Duck Hunt always ranked so high, and why is WFT always ranked so low?

1) Drugs
2) Because she should be?

 

[Jigglymaster]

If this is a default no customs tier list, then yes, Mii Brawler's placement makes sense. He would be much higher, top 3 imo, if this was including customs.

Also i'm rather confused by Shulk's placement on this tier list, what kind of results has he had so far that puts him that high?

 

[NairWizard]

Also i'm rather confused by Shulk's placement on this tier list, what kind of results has he had so far that puts him that high?

It's just a....


VISION


of the future.

 

[madworlder]

2) Because she should be?

The only weakness that stands out is her grab range. Is there something I'm missing, or not being exposed to?

 

[Kofu]

It's just a....


VISION


of the future.

Are you really feeling that it's Shulk Time?

(I am but I think we'll continue to see his game evolve as time goes on.)

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

lol theirs a first for everything lets ban mario chat xd.

oh and heres a character who we rarely talk about. charazard

I played a lot of PT in Brawl, mainly Charizard. I can't figure out Smash 4 Charizard. At times I feel like I'm handicapped when I'm playing him, and at other times, I feel invincible.

Zard's still has a solid ground game. At low level play, people like to throw out hisboxes or projectiles a lot, which isn't always a bad strategy depending on characters. Flare Blitz limits that. I'm not sure how this will play out in high level play, but it is a good punish, and also a good tool for movement. Taking 4% or so for a reset can be a good move.

Rock Smash gains super armor but doesn't damage shields as much as it used to. Seems to have less range in general. Fire breath is weakened but still somewhat useful.

Zard's grab feels more sluggish. I think Dthrow is more powerful. Uthrow is awesome.

On the ground he's decent overall. The above factors, his improved Dsmash, his stupid fast Usmash, and a decent grab help him out.

His air game is a serious liability though. He's very slow in the air. Bair is powerful, but has a slow hitbox. Fair isn't terribly slow, but is slower than similar options. I don't believe it can be autocancelled on a short hop. Uair is good and Dair is in line with other spikes. MAYBE aerial flare blitz and rock smash's armor can compensate for these options, but he's incredibly vulnerable in the air, especially compared to other characters.

It's worth noting that fly is pretty powerful, and often surprises people. Leaves you very vulnerable, but worth the risk in many cases. Especially if people have a habit of airdodging your Uair. I got into the habit of baiting airdodges with ZSS. Charizard is less adept at this due to his air speed, but if you could bait an airdodge and punish, you'll have a surprisingly effective tool.

Overall, Zard is a frustrating character for me. He has so many interesting and unique tools that *should* combine to make a pretty solid character, but his lacking air attacks gum up the works. Hopefully better players will be able to make better use of his tools than I can.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

The only weakness that stands out is her grab range. Is there something I'm missing, or not being exposed to?

She doesn't have any other weaknesses that really stand out, but her strengths are limited as well. Her range is a bit limited, her KO potential is meh, and her smashes can be hard to hit. Her hitboxes are a bit weird, which makes some moves (Usmash for example) hard to land.

She doesn't have any terrible weaknesses (to my knowledge), but I don't think many characters in this game do (besides maybe Little Mac and that's by design). She simply doesn't have a lot of strengths.