Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Hitting people (not shields) with untippered aerials is good, but his frame data doesn't really allow him to combo anyone or anything to really abuse them.

A character like Mario, with relatively good mobility specs and frame data will do pretty well in a reaction-based game, much like why he was good in PM. From a short time playing the WiiU version, I can already tell how significantly better reaction players/play styles are. Mario may seem completely undercut by the characters Diddy Kong and Marth, both of which who take his CQC/combo-strength and reaction/spacing strengths to significantly higher heights respectively, but eh Mario being Diddy 0.75 still isn't a "worthless" character, it'll look a lot better for him comparatively once Diddy gets bopped.

Either way another multipage mario debacle because of ONE person mentioning the name with anything but "worst character/horrible" perspective. You may be a Mario Maestro but if Mario is able to have results, then you have to deal with it impartially rather than finding any reason you can to discredit the players involved.

At this stage we need tournament results, because theory has mostly been exhausted. I know you'd much rather have the unilateral backing of "mario is bad" so Sakurai takes notice for buffs, but that's practically cheating the meta. I know because I feel exactly the same; my character could be better and I'd almost rather people not have any results with him so there's a higher likelihood of tweaks. Fortunately I think Japan is primarily the focus, but on the Western Sphere there's at least two Marth mains winning/placing in tournaments already (myself and Killlock).

Man I know Emblem Lord didn't like the Diddy talk but at least we all got along during it....

.

EL forgot to realise the context of diddy is primarily one of "Apex is soon, the biggest tournament of the year which will be Smash4's biggest showing by far, and there won't be a patch for this and we're going to have to deal with this monkey likely dominating". I think we're all sure that Diddy will get nerfed by Sakurai, but it doesn't matter [right now] unless it's going to happen within the next month and a half. For the next month and a half Diddy is going to be nearly 100% of every top level player's efforts, either in learning him or dealing with him. My facebook feed tells me the truth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Man I know Emblem Lord didn't like the Diddy talk but at least we all got along during it....

.

You can blame me. I know I'm deliberately being unreasonably dramatic. I still want people to realize how universally infuriating it is to have your favorite characters misrepresented with flat out lies.

@ Shaya Even if I know Mario is getting some results, I demand impartial analysis of available matches. Which, was clearly not being done in the videos I recently posted. All the inexperienced players on youtube crying OP over what may as well be For Glory shenanigans is unacceptable. The fact Mario is getting results at best proves he's not trash. Doesn't mean he isn't bad.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh I'm not blaming anyone I just think it's getting a little out of hand and honestly I think if this is going to happen every time Mario is mentioned we should like, simmer and talk about other stuff like, oh....Falco, he's pretty cool!

I STILL need to unlock Void Reflector but I hear it's really absurd and silly good, looks awesome. I've been enjoying Falco's short but sweet combo game and beautiful footsies + jab.

 

[Locke 06]

Personally, I think that Megaman actually wins the match-up against Diddy; pellets outright make diddy's camp game null and void as they clank with bananas and peanuts. I feel as if Megaman's natural zoning game should make it easy to react to Monkey Toss too; if you play the mid range game right, it's not too hard to pivot grab. Also, Leaf shield > Diddy's up-b. If you so much as graze him with a leaf while he's below the stage, Diddy is as good as dead; no footstool needed.

Mega man = anti-diddy. Discuss.

Edit: quote is from the mega man boards. I agree with most of it, as mega man neutralizes his side-B with pellets and risk-reward analysis of using the kick to eat through them (jump to avoid, fast fall, utilt).

 

[HeroMystic]

Either way another multipage mario debacle because of ONE person mentioning the name with anything but "worst character/horrible" perspective.

This thread talked about Mario before? ****, where was I when this happened?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly he has potential in that utility just because Mega Man absolutely dominates the mid range against anyone without a reflector. Pellets/lemons make my face sour if I don't play Dr. Mario against him, or Falco.

He has potential in that regard, IDK if he outright WINS against Diddy but his mid-range is commendable and probably can assist in that matchup handily.

This thread talked about Mario before? ****, where was I when this happened?

It happened...a LOT. God DAMN did it happen a lot. Mario better be the most ****ing picked character at Apex or I'm going to be upset because we literally dissected the character like 3 separate times lol. (I know this won't happen at all)

 

[Shaya]

Do you know how early we are in this game's life span?
This is all about consistency, and right now people forming an opinion off of one or two events is the best they can do. Over time is that player going to fall off the face of the earth or they drop them once people figure out the match up? Time will tell, not your analysing. You think an amazing player like Vex isn't going to do everything in their power to not let a "bad" character beat him again?

Oh I'm not blaming anyone I just think it's getting a little out of hand and honestly I think if this is going to happen every time Mario is mentioned we should like, simmer and talk about other stuff like, oh....Falco, he's pretty cool!

I STILL need to unlock Void Reflector but I hear it's really absurd and silly good, looks awesome. I've been enjoying Falco's short but sweet combo game and beautiful footsies + jab.

Short? MAN... BRO, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW.
Dthrow -> dash attack -> up throw -> 2x up tilt (3-5 depending on weight/reactive timing to air dodges [jumping is a very bad idea they'll figure out pretty quickly]) > uair them until they land. Consistent 50 to 90% on nearly every stock fresh. EVEN WORKS ON NESS' NEUTRAL AIR.

 

[deepseadiva]

Mega man = anti-diddy. Discuss.

Where did you grab that quote from. Those are all neat things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Short? MAN BRO YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW.
Dthrow -> dash attack -> up throw -> 2x up tilt (3-5 depending on weight/reactive timing to air dodges [jumping is a very bad idea they'll figure that out pretty quickly]) > uair them until they land. Consistent 50 to 90% on nearly every stock fresh.

Totes stealing this.
ALSO I love using his UpAir to extend stuff if possible because the horizontal range is jussstttt enough sometimes. This man is swagger. He's a totally different beast in this game but still a force, fo sho.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There are so many bad Shulks on For Glory. If people are going by that as a measurement of his abilities it would explain why they feel he's bad. The few I've fought that knew what they were doing make me fear Shulk because of his range and flexibility (I agree with you, Speed Shulk is scary). I still best most of them but Shulk is not to be trifled with.

Also I think Marth is better than Pit just because tippers are absurdly powerful in this game. Lucina's probably not better than Pit though.

It's so odd, because and this isn't to knock Ganon. You have characters that are far more straight-forward and you can guess their limitations. Shulk can play the same Spacing game as Marth/Lucina, and change multiple properties of himself that despite core realities of his kit, can completely change how you have to deal with him and his offensive options. I can't see how that isn't a well desired and respected reality at this stage of the games lifespan.

Marths Tipper absolutely is, but if we're considering the options here. Super Armor on Pit will let him oppose a handful of threats and add recovery flexibility that Marth won't see without Dashing Assault. Guardian Orbitars having particular significance against certain options like PKT2 that Marth doesn't directly replicate and finally the presence of arrows for edgeguarding,counter-spam and baiting the approach. Granted I haven't really said anything other then go over their differences, but hell we may as well do more compare/contrasts vs individual assessments, at least I think.

Theoretically, Marth is absurd. Tipper fsmash is a bowser fsmash with ¼ the startup and endlag (also w/disjoint). Tipper ftilt is a killer too, and he can cover options incredibly well when he has a positional advantage. His speed/power/range when played optimally is unrivaled in the cast (speed/power is much like aura lucario without the projectile).

The problem with Marth has, and always will be, that he is a perfectionist character that suffers when played non-optimally. In the same way non-auraboosted lucario isn't incredibly scary, non-tipper Marth is a weak swordsman (which is why Lucina isn't worthless).

Marth players can correct me if I'm wrong, but he's always been great for theories (counter + spacing). In reality, you can't space perfectly because your opponent is trying to disrupt it. I imagine that's why there are Marth killers that can defeat high level Marths with any character (brought up earlier in the thread).

It is ridic, and it's to his strength, which will become only more varied when Dashing assault hits the scene.
As far as perfectionist, he'll have competition with Shulk in that, if I am not mistaken (given my experience vs a handful of Marthcinas in sm4) Shulk outranges Marths aerial game in a general sense leading to frankly a lot of footsies.

Going beyond that though Marth as I believe everyone feels has the greater command on-stage in general.
Maybe I should have phrased it that for Pit compared to Marth, what Pit is bringing to the MU's to make him a considerable pick-up over Marth if at all to see how they stack-up.

On the subject of Marth, thing is, Marth's not tipped hits don't really suck (they're even actually safer than Lucina's on block due to hitlag). And then there's his edgeguarding...which is by far the reason why he's so deadly. He covers basic options extremely well, and he hits like Ganondorf offstage where it's much easier to space his tippers.

Absolutely agree, which again makes me wonder about him and Pit in relation to each other as Pit's got a great off-stage and ideally gets most of his kills off a F-air/B-air/D-air given his longer KO requirements on-stage. Thing is though, Marth still gets off-stage kills well. Marth also generally doesn't need to go as deep as Pit does to get those off-stage kills, it's still less of a risk to make those commitments for Pit however given his flexibility off-stage.

This also leads me to believe Pit handles characters like Lucario worse then Marth simply because off-stage confirms become unreliable and impractical vs reliable recoveries.

 

[Locke 06]

Where did you grab that quote from. Those are all neat things.

Mega man MU thread. Didn't quote the user, because it allows people to just focus on the text rather than "this person has no experience" or "this person knows what he/she's talking about."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mega man = anti-diddy. Discuss.

What does Mega Man have on Diddy's close range options? Diddy's tilts are pretty good, and his grab game is still better than Mega Man's.

Zucco's been putting in work with Mega Man, as I'm aware. As I've stated before, I firmly believe Mega Man is a very viable character when you lack really good anti-projectile tools. Though he generally has to be pretty careful about good closeup games given his own tilts are not reliable.

 

[deepseadiva]

Mega man MU thread. Didn't quote the user, because it allows people to just focus on the text rather than "this person has no experience" or "this person knows what he/she's talking about."

Is the user you lol

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's no where as easy to pull off as DDD's or Falco's in Brawl though. You have to time your jumps and dair spikes. (You CAN 0 death with it though from a grounded up b I think though)

I'm pretty sure you can on some characters yeah! Which is what makes it pretty boss.

 

[Locke 06]

What does Mega Man have on Diddy's close range options? Diddy's tilts are pretty good, and his grab game is still better than Mega Man's.

Zucco's been putting in work with Mega Man, as I'm aware. As I've stated before, I firmly believe Mega Man is a very viable character when you lack really good anti-projectile tools. Though he generally has to be pretty careful about good closeup games given his own tilts are not reliable.

His close up tools are 5 frame dtilt, grab, 6 frame utilt with a hitbox more like sheik's ftilt and usmash. All of which are high commitment, which is why up-B to leaf shield is a good way to try and reset to neutral. He suffers at close range, no doubt. I think the grabs are pretty comparable in terms of range and endlag with diddy getting more out of his grabs and having more ground speed.

Edit: grab isn't high commitment and what you get out of it is a reset, so that's real nice. Also, up-B puts you above diddy which isn't great... But it's an option, especially if you can get leaf shield out to give you a hitbox while you air dodge.

Also, I really don't see doc's reflector helping the mid-range. Fire 2 pellets instead of 3 and they cancel out. Falco's works because it messes the spacing up.

Is the user you lol

Nah, not me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's reflector is less for the pellets IMO and more for the general MU. The midrange is easy to attempt to weave around with a Bair or smart movement IMO. It's his other tools in tandem that sheet can mess with making it significantly easier with him. Plus Mega Man is fairly susceptible to strings since I think Rush Cancelling is removed? I don't remember, was this ever confirmed?

 

[Shaya]

IMO, the more I've played the game the more I've gotten less excited about dash assault over shield breaker. Maybe I should just be using dash assault more like I use shieldbreaker for better results (I don't know why I have this mental block about using it as some sort of long range thing).
Dash Assault turns the Rosalina match up into marth's favour I'm pretty sure. But otherwise, in most scenarios Marth seems better relying on his movement specs + timing to get through long-range junk rather than dash assaulting. When I compare dash assault to shieldbreaker or other dash moves (Pit's sidebs, Bouncing Fish, etc), he's thrown a move that has like 20 frames more lag than shieldbreaker, gets absolutely disemboweled if it hits shield (doesn't freely bounce off of them/give him any freedom from them at all) and requires dolphin jump to be able to liberally use it more (like off stage).

Shieldbreaker is otherwise a 19 frame move that extends his reach (it's all disjoint too) some 50%+ longer than the rest of his moveset. At tipper range it's mostly safe on shield (you aren't taking a smash attack punish from anyone) and has quite high knockback (you can kill people with it at the ledge at 80%). Otherwise it takes only ONE or TWO hits on shield from aerials/tilts into a shield read (i.e. someone's about to land; and now with 5 extra frames forced on holding shield, it's a lot more reliable read to take) to break it. And on WiiU i'm getting this somewhat consistently.

In terms of Pit v Marth. Pit is so much easier and well rounded, but really struggles to get the kill. Marth could be better because of this but eh.

 

[Locke 06]

Doc's reflector is less for the pellets IMO and more for the general MU. The midrange is easy to attempt to weave around with a Bair or smart movement IMO. It's his other tools in tandem that sheet can mess with making it significantly easier with him. Plus Mega Man is fairly susceptible to strings since I think Rush Cancelling is removed? I don't remember, was this ever confirmed?

Mega man gets combo'd hard. Rush canceling is removed, but you can still use it to escape imperfect combos. Think of a sex kick, except without the kick. I think it still has invincibility on startup, but we haven't really looked at frame data since the patch (we as in the mega man boards)

He does have something nobody else has though. 0-landing lag Nair.

Edit: reason for him getting combo'd is that he's moderately heavy. Think Ike. His small frame helps though.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

IMO, the more I've played the game the more I've gotten less excited about dash assault over shield breaker. Maybe I should just be using dash assault more like I use shieldbreaker for better results (I don't know why I have this mental block about using it as some sort of long range thing).
Dash Assault turns the Rosalina match up into marth's favour I'm pretty sure. But otherwise, in most scenarios Marth seems better relying on his movement specs + timing to get through long-range junk rather than dash assaulting. When I compare dash assault to shieldbreaker or other dash moves (Pit's sidebs, Bouncing Fish, etc), he's thrown a move that has like 20 frames more lag than shieldbreaker, gets absolutely disemboweled if it hits shield (doesn't freely bounce off of them/give him any freedom from them at all) and requires dolphin jump to be able to liberally use it more (like off stage).

Shieldbreaker is otherwise a 19 frame move that extends his reach (it's all disjoint too) some 50%+ longer than the rest of his moveset. At tipper range it's mostly safe on shield (you aren't taking a smash attack punish from anyone) and has quite high knockback (you can kill people with it at the ledge at 80%). Otherwise it takes only ONE or TWO hits on shield from aerials/tilts into a shield read (i.e. someone's about to land; and now with 5 extra frames forced on holding shield, it's a lot more reliable read to take) to break it. And on WiiU i'm getting this somewhat consistently.

In terms of Pit v Marth. Pit is so much easier and well rounded, but really struggles to get the kill. Marth could be better because of this but eh.

Shieldbreaker safe on shield? What shield remains for it to be safe on...
I believe Pit v Marth is settled on if Pits edgeguard strength in most situations makes up for Marths KO. There are other factors but I think that's the gist? FF Fair/D-air can mean the end for plenty at 80%.
I like SB it's just that DA being on the table gives him extra to bring to some match ups. Not really the same as Shulk where everythings the same it's just "These kill you faster."

Again part of this will all be how they fair vs X.
Marth hasn't been very visible in the scene yet. As I said before though he's probably better vs Lucario.

 

[NairWizard]

Aaaaaand we're back to discussing Diddy.

Mega man = anti-diddy. Discuss.

Edit: quote is from the mega man boards. I agree with most of it, as mega man neutralizes his side-B with pellets and risk-reward analysis of using the kick to eat through them (jump to avoid, fast fall, utilt).

There are going to be a million characters in this game with claims to beating Diddy once people train in the matchup, but most of them will be ignoring what the Diddy side can do and just focusing on what their side can do. The Diddy player has a brain (arguably) and a controller in his hands, so he's going to see what's happening and respond to it. Diddy isn't a one-dimensional character; he gets much reward from grabs but he does have an entire kit besides dash grab and up-air, and he will use it to condition you into putting yourself into dash-grabbable positions.

Whenever possible, we should be thinking one step ahead and predicting how the opponent will react to the strategies that we're pulling out. Definitely not saying that the Megaman boards aren't doing this (I don't know; I haven't been there), just pointing it out as a possible trap.

On the subject of Megaman, sure, pellets neutralize peanuts, so Diddy won't be relying on camping Megaman out. Instead, he will be trying to get in past the projectile barrage and land a grab. Megaman's close range options are not that great so Megaman has to try to use Leaf Shield and safe midrange zoning tactics to keep Diddy out (Megaman's aerial game is really good; f-air and b-air especially are dominant options). Is this effective against Diddy? Maybe. I don't really think so because Diddy is really fast, and he can mix up side-bs and banana tosses at appropriate times to still land grabs/get Megaman in the air (or just in close range), where he's less good/safe. His f-air is still a force to be reckoned with, and d-tilt pressure can be quite intense when he does manage to get in.

In the air, Megaman doesn't really have a reliable way to land against up-air, at least I don't think he does from my limited experience with the character. D-air is really easy to avoid and he has no fast n-air interrupt. Does Leaf Shield in the air protect against attacks?

When Diddy is offstage, Leaf Shield only gimps if the Diddy tries to recover from directly below. Megaman does have a really solid way to punish side-b to the stage, though, with his f-smash being as awesome as it is. There's not much a Diddy can do against a charged f-smash into a Leaf Shield. So I'm guessing that Diddy will try to recover high first, in which case Megaman does have that up-air to catch him out, but that won't send Diddy offstage again so unless it kills it might not do that much good in gimping. Seems like it's safer for Diddy to just recover high since recovering low can be risky against Megaman. So that's still pretty good for Megaman, at least: a Diddy who always recovers high (or most of the time, with some low mixups) will be taking damage on landing, and at higher percents getting knocked off again while trying to get back to the stage.

On the flipside, Diddy can't edgeguard Megaman as well as you would think, so overall, just based on my initial thoughts, I'd say that the matchup is pretty doable and at this stage I'd call it even. I don't really see how Megaman wins, though. D-throw to up-air / f-air didn't stop being ridiculously good or anything.

 

[Frostav]

So what is the verdict on overall viability of the cast? A bunch of people are saying that more of the cast is viable than ever, and while I'd like that, I don't put much stock in it. Sakurai has shown over the past three games that he has no problem with Smash being a hilariously unbalanced kusoge where a fraction of the cast can actually compete with everyone else worthless.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Shieldbreaker safe on shield? What shield remains for it to be safe on...
I believe Pit v Marth is settled on if Pits edgeguard strength in most situations makes up for Marths KO. There are other factors but I think that's the gist? FF Fair/D-air can mean the end for plenty at 80%.
I like SB it's just that DA being on the table gives him extra to bring to some match ups. Not really the same as Shulk where everythings the same it's just "These kill you faster."

Again part of this will all be how they fair vs X.
Marth hasn't been very visible in the scene yet. As I said before though he's probably better vs Lucario.

or we can just counter pick lylat cruise and watch pit sd left and right lol.
but yeah i feel marth v pit really even honestly. i feel like marth will have trouble punishing a cautuous pt while pit will be really working to get the kill. gimping attack recoveries is very difficult expecially off stage.

So what is the verdict on overall viability of the cast? A bunch of people are saying that more of the cast is viable than ever, and while I'd like that, I don't put much stock in it. Sakurai has shown over the past three games that he has no problem with Smash being a hilariously unbalanced kusoge where a fraction of the cast can actually compete with everyone else worthless.

sakurai never made the game with balance as a priority before.

edit* sorry double post

 

[Emblem Lord]

I consider Pit and Marth alterations of the same mold. Pit being more well rounded and able to handle alot of match-ups. Marth probably losing a few more matches then Pit but also beating some characters more handily then Pit. Marth overall being a little stronger in the trap game while Pit is strong at poking in general.

If you can play one you can play the other and you probably should as you will see success with both.

Still, I think they both lose to Sheik and Diddy so its like...eh

 

[Shaya]

So what is the verdict on overall viability of the cast? A bunch of people are saying that more of the cast is viable than ever, and while I'd like that, I don't put much stock in it. Sakurai has shown over the past three games that he has no problem with Smash being a hilariously unbalanced kusoge where a fraction of the cast can actually compete with everyone else worthless.

my current cynic feels the following
the game is split by
Top Tier, High Tier and Everyone Else Tier.

Balance differences are overly accentuated by grab games. Top Tier characters risk/reward are stupid. High Tier characters have tools to go even-ish with top tiers (overpowered projectiles, mostly). Everyone else is literally everyone else, they're going to lose to top tiers unless they're making at least 50% more successful reads, that's the difference between Diddy and say Marth right now. Sonic doesn't need reads at all, he's just going to nullify most of the cast by playing like he's the campiest melee fox in existence.

We've got a really good looking game right now in terms of balance, except we've got 5 or so sore thumbs that are going to centralize the meta because you need very very broken moves to beat dash grab centric game play (i.e. thunder jolts, luma).

 

[Kofu]

I'm not sold on Mario being worse than Ganon tbh. Sorry to bring up Mario again, but this is mostly going to be about Ganon anyway. Mario may have troubles getting in, but at least he has a projectile to apply pressure from a distance. I don't care how crappy it is in the scheme of projectiles; any move that can be consistently thrown out to inflict damage like that is a boon to the character. Fireballs add a way to trap opponents so Mario can get a grab, aerial, or other hit in. They aid his approach. Ganon doesn't have that; in fact, he has no reliable approach options.

His direct options of moving toward the target are bad by virtue of his movement specs being some of the worst in the game. Dash attack is decent with solid priority and damage but is easily shielded. Dash grab is bad not only because of a slow run speed but also because Ganon's grab range is terrible. Aerially he fares a bit better, but a lot of his aerials miss grounded targets because he's so tall, and one he commits to an aerial approach, there's really no way for him to back out to avoid damage, so he had better space impeccably. Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke both have noticeable startup. Flame Choke has great rewards but its range is short and leaves Ganon open to retaliation if it misses. Wizard's Foot is a lot safer now than in Brawl since the hitbox actually covers his foot but it's still relatively trivial to react to and block. Hypothetically if the opponent just stays on the ground and plays smart Ganon shouldn't be able to do anything. It's the same situation as Brawl, really. People end up playing too aggressively against the king of evil and take significant damage from it. Obviously having a command grab to better pressure shields is nice and gives Ganon more flexibility when approaching, which allows human error to at least grant him a chance to win. His hit rewards are great, but he has a much harder time getting those hits than Mario and his lack of mobility eliminates any option he had of faking out the opponent to get his (Wizard's) foot in the door.

On a side note, I think a compendium of competent players for each character who would be willing to play Wi-fi matches to give others a better understanding of the characters would be useful. A lot of what I feel about characters is what I feel they could do because most of the people I fight are not using their characters' tools optimally or even close to it.

 

[Lord Exor]

People are grieving over Mario's viability and yet Bowser Jr. is about 50 times worse. First world problems, eh?

 

[A2ZOMG]

People are grieving over Mario's viability and yet Bowser Jr. is about 50 times worse. First world problems, eh?

But he's not. Bowser Jr gets ITEM TOSSING, AMAZING EDGEGUARDS, and both grounded and aerial pokes that actually are good. Bowser Jr. actually has a midrange, and very good captialization options. Mario doesn't.

I'm not sold on Mario being worse than Ganon tbh. Sorry to bring up Mario again, but this is mostly going to be about Ganon anyway. Mario may have troubles getting in, but at least he has a projectile to apply pressure from a distance. I don't care how crappy it is in the scheme of projectiles; any move that can be consistently thrown out to inflict damage like that is a boon to the character. Fireballs add a way to trap opponents so Mario can get a grab, aerial, or other hit in. They aid his approach. Ganon doesn't have that; in fact, he has no reliable approach options.

His direct options of moving toward the target are bad by virtue of his movement specs being some of the worst in the game. Dash attack is decent with solid priority and damage but is easily shielded. Dash grab is bad not only because of a slow run speed but also because Ganon's grab range is terrible. Aerially he fares a bit better, but a lot of his aerials miss grounded targets because he's so tall, and one he commits to an aerial approach, there's really no way for him to back out to avoid damage, so he had better space impeccably. Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke both have noticeable startup. Flame Choke has great rewards but its range is short and leaves Ganon open to retaliation if it misses. Wizard's Foot is a lot safer now than in Brawl since the hitbox actually covers his foot but it's still relatively trivial to react to and block. Hypothetically if the opponent just stays on the ground and plays smart Ganon shouldn't be able to do anything. It's the same situation as Brawl, really. People end up playing too aggressively against the king of evil and take significant damage from it. Obviously having a command grab to better pressure shields is nice and gives Ganon more flexibility when approaching, which allows human error to at least grant him a chance to win. His hit rewards are great, but he has a much harder time getting those hits than Mario and his lack of mobility eliminates any option he had of faking out the opponent to get his (Wizard's) foot in the door.

On a side note, I think a compendium of competent players for each character who would be willing to play Wi-fi matches to give others a better understanding of the characters would be useful. A lot of what I feel about characters is what I feel they could do because most of the people I fight are not using their characters' tools optimally or even close to it.

Ganondorf's N-air and F-air are safe on block. N-air can cover spotdodges too. Plus, Ganondorf actually gets out of juggles better than Mario with wizkick and he KILLS people when they make a mistake.

Ganondorf actually has midrange options that are good and rewarding, even safe to use when properly implemented. And his risky options generally have a lot of range and deal massive damage.

And he took 2nd in a 106 man tournament in Japan. This was BEFORE he got buffed too.

 

[Locke 06]

Aaaaaand we're back to discussing Diddy.
snip

Definitely agreed on a lot of these things. Solid analysis, I just took that quote because I was hoping it would spur some discussion. I think it is an even matchup, but due to Mega Man's unpopularity as a competitive character and diddy's popularity, I think the Mega Man would do well in this matchup for the upcoming months.

Now to digesting what you've posted:

On the subject of Megaman, sure, pellets neutralize peanuts, so Diddy won't be relying on camping Megaman out. Instead, he will be trying to get in past the projectile barrage and land a grab. Megaman's close range options are not that great so Megaman has to try to use Leaf Shield and safe midrange zoning tactics to keep Diddy out (Megaman's aerial game is really good; f-air and b-air especially are dominant options). Is this effective against Diddy? Maybe. I don't really think so because Diddy is really fast, and he can mix up side-bs and banana tosses at appropriate times to still land grabs/get Megaman in the air (or just in close range), where he's less good/safe.

Diddy has to approach (not that he usually doesn't anyway, but we'll just establish that). The issue with side-B is that it can be very very risky at mid-high %'s (85 and up) because utilt will kill (with rage, it probably will kill Diddy at 85). When he wants to banana throw, he has to set it up, which makes his options limited. There are techs like airdodge dropping, instatossing, glide tossing, as well as z-dropping to an aerial, but shielding and camping becomes very powerful since he can't grab (with the exception of side-B which has the issues noted previously) and his banana gets neutralized by projectiles. This isn't saying both of these are sealed, as mixups allow for these things to work (just like fsmash works on characters with reflectors much more than people would think), but they're less effective on Mega Man than most. Once he gets in, well... yeah. Mega Man isn't doing so hot. Dtilt can help you escape a bit because of its mobility, but Diddy outclasses him as does the majority of the cast. (Also, FAir outprioritizes pellets and metal blade I think, so it's definitely a force to be reckoned with.)

In the air, Megaman doesn't really have a reliable way to land against up-air, at least I don't think he does from my limited experience with the character. D-air is really easy to avoid and he has no fast n-air interrupt. Does Leaf Shield in the air protect against attacks?

Mega Man has a really good fast fall speed along with comparable horizontal airspeed (probably the same as Diddy's), which helps him land against juggles. That said, up-air is a guessing game. D-Air is really easy to avoid and throwing metal blades down doesn't help a whole lot because they have so little priority. Leaf shield in the air doesn't protect against attacks, but it gives you a hitbox when dodging, so you can fast fall and dodge into people relatively safely. The issue is getting leaf shield out in time. It's definitely not a place you want to be, but it can be a sudden change that can give you time to breath.

When Diddy is offstage, Leaf Shield only gimps if the Diddy tries to recover from directly below. Megaman does have a really solid way to punish side-b to the stage, though, with his f-smash being as awesome as it is. There's not much a Diddy can do against a charged f-smash into a Leaf Shield. So I'm guessing that Diddy will try to recover high first, in which case Megaman does have that up-air to catch him out, but that won't send Diddy offstage again so unless it kills it might not do that much good in gimping. Seems like it's safer for Diddy to just recover high since recovering low can be risky against Megaman. So that's still pretty good for Megaman, at least: a Diddy who always recovers high (or most of the time, with some low mixups) will be taking damage on landing, and at higher percents getting knocked off again while trying to get back to the stage.

Recovering high against Mega Man will usually net you a BAir (which is akin to Brawl MK's FAir/BAir). That move is just as amazing as Fsmash in edge guarding. If you're going into freefall high, utilt will end everyone 100% and up (and Diddy at 87% without rage). Off stage is great for Mega man, and also helps him get away from the whole uair shenanigans if he can go off stage and mixup his recovery.

Because of the anti-Diddy propoganda, Mega Man has a winnable/slightly in his favor matchup with Diddy, but when the dust settles I think it will be closer to even.

Edit: I really want to see high level Bowser Jr play. That character's moveset is very interesting.

 

[Nobie]

Mega man = anti-diddy. Discuss.

Edit: quote is from the mega man boards. I agree with most of it, as mega man neutralizes his side-B with pellets and risk-reward analysis of using the kick to eat through them (jump to avoid, fast fall, utilt).

Eh I feel like Mega Man hates having anyone below him, and that's where Diddy looooves to be.

 

[Lord Exor]

But he's not. Bowser Jr gets ITEM TOSSING, AMAZING EDGEGUARDS, and both grounded and aerial pokes that actually are good. Bowser Jr. actually has a midrange, and very good captialization options. Mario doesn't.

Ganondorf's N-air and F-air are safe on block. N-air can cover spotdodges too. Plus, Ganondorf actually gets out of juggles better than Mario with wizkick and he KILLS people when they make a mistake.

Ganondorf actually has midrange options that are good and rewarding, even safe to use when properly implemented. And his risky options generally have a lot of range and deal massive damage.

And he took 2nd in a 106 man tournament in Japan. This was BEFORE he got buffed too.

Why is it that you see 50 Marios enter tournaments, and a distinctive drought of Koopaling players?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is it that you see 50 Marios enter tournaments, and a distinctive drought of Koopaling players?

Is that your counterargument? Seriously? Let me ask you, why do you believe that's relevant? And seriously, where are all the Villager or Pac Man players for that matter?

Also, let me kindly show you the door. I believe you're in the wrong thread.

 

[Luco]

So what is the verdict on overall viability of the cast? A bunch of people are saying that more of the cast is viable than ever, and while I'd like that, I don't put much stock in it. Sakurai has shown over the past three games that he has no problem with Smash being a hilariously unbalanced kusoge where a fraction of the cast can actually compete with everyone else worthless.

It's different this time around. I suspect Namco has had a lot to do with the tweaks on much of the cast to increase overall character viability because if characters like Olimar and Luigi are winning tournaments (who at least up until this point everyone thought they were pretty low tier), then it seems they really have put in a lot of effort. Characters like may be braindead but at least they're not on the level of Brawl MK; and our worst characters are probably around Luigi/PT level in Brawl.

Basically it seems now that Nintendo is actually recognising there's a competitive community here. You can argue that's a good or bad thing, maybe say they're doing it to study how we play and then make the game totally unbalanced; personally i'm inclined to take the optimistic route and say they're trying to satisfy this community. So far, it's working pretty well, and the game seems pretty balanced to me.

 

[Frostav]

my current cynic feels the following
the game is split by
Top Tier, High Tier and Everyone Else Tier.

Balance differences are overly accentuated by grab games. Top Tier characters risk/reward are stupid. High Tier characters have tools to go even-ish with top tiers (overpowered projectiles, mostly). Everyone else is literally everyone else, they're going to lose to top tiers unless they're making at least 50% more successful reads, that's the difference between Diddy and say Marth right now. Sonic doesn't need reads at all, he's just going to nullify most of the cast by playing like he's the campiest melee fox in existence.

We've got a really good looking game right now in terms of balance, except we've got 5 or so sore thumbs that are going to centralize the meta because you need very very broken moves to beat dash grab centric game play (i.e. thunder jolts, luma).

Your tiers and your descriptions aren't cohesive.

If a game has but three tiers, that usually means it has pretty good balance. However your descriptions imply that your C tier is much worse than the A and B's...which is the exact same kind of kusoge imbalance that Melee and Brawl had.

Because, to be honest, you could fit, say, Melee into three tiers: A would be Fox, Marth, Peach, Sheik, and Falco. B would be Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, and Ganondorf. C would be everyone else, because anybody who wasn't one of the aforementioned characters in Melee was objectively worthless.

 

[NairWizard]

Is that your counterargument? Seriously? Let me ask you, why do you believe that's relevant? And seriously, where are all the Villager or Pac Man players for that matter?

Also, let me kindly show you the door. I believe you're in the wrong thread.

If I may offer a friendly piece of advice, I would suggest not belittling everyone who in any way disagrees with your arguments. I understand that you feel slighted, but calling out good players for not knowing what they're doing and saying that they're ignorant, and then responding like this to people making simple comments is strictly inimical to advancing your position.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

AMAZING EDGEGUARDS,

And Mario doesn't have edgeguards with his ****ing Windbox,fireball, and cape as just a base not including throwing out B/F/N air. Plus those specials getting straight dumb come custom time?

 

[Shaya]

Your tiers and your descriptions aren't cohesive.

If a game has but three tiers, that usually means it has pretty good balance. However your descriptions imply that your C tier is much worse than the A and B's...which is the exact same kind of kusoge imbalance that Melee and Brawl had.

Because, to be honest, you could fit, say, Melee into three tiers: A would be Fox, Marth, Peach, Sheik, and Falco. B would be Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, and Ganondorf. C would be everyone else, because anybody who wasn't one of the aforementioned characters in Melee was objectively worthless.

What I'm saying is there is quite a noticeable gap between the tippity top and below, but the gap between those below are insignificant or close to. Tell me you can picky Kirby or Ganondorf in Melee and be not that far away in capabilities to the characters about halfway or more up the "tier list" than you are (Marioish vs Fox/Pit-ish). There may be a strangler or two here and there (Mii swordsman probably?) but within the main cast most players are happy with whatever character they're choosing to learn, and are able to be played with success within this not-so-well-defined meta. The only abusive thing within the engine is Rage and that is something that is overly effective on a very small portion of the cast (hint: they're the ones winning tournaments), otherwise the game just doesn't seem that bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If I may offer a friendly piece of advice, I would suggest not belittling everyone who in any way disagrees with your arguments. I understand that you feel slighted, but calling out good players for not knowing what they're doing and saying that they're ignorant, and then responding like this to people making simple comments is strictly inimical to advancing your position.

I firmly believe people should be held to higher standards in this type of discussion. I've already worked with very limited resources to construct very detailed opinions. And I wouldn't be posting anything unless I was CERTAIN that my opinion had solid backing.

If you can understand that, you can then understand why I am very angry at certain types of responses. I'm not claiming I'm correct all the time. But I REALLY am disgusted by people who believe with less effort and quality observation they are in a position to be disrespectful with me.

And Mario doesn't have edgeguards with his ****ing Windbox,fireball, and cape as just a base not including throwing out B/F/N air. Plus those specials getting straight dumb come custom time?

Well, there's no guarantee we'll have customs for internationals yet. Also no, Mario's edgeguarding doesn't compare to ITEM TOSSING, a superior distance recovery that also is a projectile, massive disjointed aerials that can beat most recovery moves straight up. Mario's edgeguarding is mediocre, but occasionally lethal in the few situations where it works. Bowser Jr actually has many unconventional situations where he can be an effective edgeguarder, and his aerials are not absurdly weak like Mario's.

 

[Ffamran]

Since we're still on Diddy: How is Duck Hunt, Meta Knight, Toon Link, and Pac-Man against him? Ignore whichever was mentioned already.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Eh I feel like Mega Man hates having anyone below him, and that's where Diddy looooves to be.

In fairness, being above your opponent is almost always a bad situation regardless of which matchup you're playing.

People are grieving over Mario's viability and yet Bowser Jr. is about 50 times worse. First world problems, eh?

We haven't seen nearly enough exploration of Bowser Jr's playstyle for that kind of judgment to be made IMO. Mechakoopa in particular could potentially be a real game-changer for him...

 

[Luco]

Customs are up in the air right now and personally I feel the argument against them is biased and focuses on a logistical issue that doesn't take much effort to solve (Amazing Ampharos is leading a project right now that makes the logistics thing a non-issue, you guys should check it out if you haven't already).

I think if the community gets behind them, customs will be an influential part of our meta game, so i'd argue it's fine to discuss them with relevance to character viability, or at least have them there as a note if nothing else.