Character Competitive Impressions

[Smooth Criminal]

Sigh.

Mario is not ****ing terrible. He's not top tier, nor is he bottom. He was much worse off in Brawl than in this game.

If you're tired of the misinformation, I'm tired of underselling the character to the point where it is equally misleading.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kofu]

You are putting words in my mouth.. Mario's frame data is one of his strong points.

What I'm arguing is he needs frame data buffs. So that his stuff actually works in a way that is unique. Mario's combos should be frame tight, but they aren't. Mario probably is one of few characters that legitimately would not break the game with a consistent air to ground blockstring that can't be shieldgrabbed. Is it really unreasonable for me to want these things?

He can still have crappy damage per hit if he doesn't have to work hard for the first 50-60% But realistically that's not how things work.

Character changes should be focused on emphasizing unique qualities when possible, hence why a lot of my complaints revolve around Mario's frame data. It's one of his strong points, but it doesn't actually accomplish much right now.

Y'know, I don't think you have any idea how much I've forwarded his meta.

My mistake, I read "needs better frame data" and took that to mean "his frame data is bad." Thanks for explaining, though, good to know that I was fairly accurate in feeling that his frame data is actually pretty good.

I agree that character changes should serve to make each one unique; I think that, clones excepted, that was a focus of the development team's work on the newcomers. What specific aerials would you buff to make Mario more effective?

For the record, while I think Mario is one of the worst characters in the game (probably not bottom five but close to it), he's good at getting hits in and is annoying to fight but he's just not scary outside of a solid USmash/FSmash hit.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Delta just got the game and Raptor is always quiet about his tournament results, think he got 9th or something at KTAR XI.

Otherwise EU Slice just got the game and Yika also did some work with him when it was 3ds only. Dunno if the other 3 (not raptor) have results yet.
Any other NA Yoshi's are basically doing moderately well maybe in their region, or just not doing well at all yet cause those are prolly the newer or Bandwagon Yoshi mains.

Also Mii brawler is not better than Yoshi, I'll argue Fox though.

I didn't really go to much for the 3DS version but I'm going hard for the Wii U version. Already got 9th/160 at KTAR, 1st/18, and 2nd/25.

There's not too many Yoshi mains out there from what I see though, which is weird since he's a solid character now. He's not top 5 or anything (maybe not even top 10) but I assumed I'd see a lot more Yoshi mains then I'm seeing now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sigh.

Mario is not ****ing terrible. He's not top tier, nor is he bottom. He was much worse off in Brawl than in this game.

If you're tired of the misinformation, I'm tired of underselling the character to the point where it is equally misleading.

Smooth Criminal

I don't undersell the character. I can actually tell you which matchups are okay for him, and why. Yoshi mains were going to erroneously argue they destroy Mario in this game. You know who actually argued against that? Me.

I wouldn't be so quick to argue Mario was worse off in Brawl. Remove the top 8, the game is pretty balanced. Mario in Brawl had better everything, better hard reads, Jab cancel combos, survivability, and stutter step Fsmash. Mario actually could sometimes kill you in about three hard reads in Brawl with a 70% string and an up angled Fsmash.

My mistake, I read "needs better frame data" and took that to mean "his frame data is bad." Thanks for explaining, though, good to know that I was fairly accurate in feeling that his frame data is actually pretty good.

I agree that character changes should serve to make each one unique; I think that, clones excepted, that was a focus of the development team's work on the newcomers. What specific aerials would you buff to make Mario more effective?

For the record, while I think Mario is one of the worst characters in the game (probably not bottom five but close to it), he's good at getting hits in and is annoying to fight but he's just not scary outside of a solid USmash/FSmash hit.

Mario needs 5 frames off Utilt, about 2 frames off Dtilt, Dthrow, Uair, and landing with Nair and Dair. 7 frames off Fair landing.

These changes mostly add coherence to Mario's combos. Nair change I believe would allow Mario to be I think -4 on block for low Nair to the ground, being safe against shieldgrab. Both Mario and Doc Fairs should have less landing lag just for universal consistency.

 

[HeroMystic]

I agree that character changes should serve to make each one unique; I think that, clones excepted, that was a focus of the development team's work on the newcomers. What specific aerials would you buff to make Mario more effective?

To be honest, I can't say for sure. I'm still experimenting with his moveset to see what syngerizes. Right now I'm mainly exploring B-air and his tilts. In general, Mario's ground game is still largely unexplored and I have a feeling that we've been sleeping on F-tilt, which could be a good keep-away move.

I think what I would want most is B-air being able to push back shields. That combined with D-air would give him a consistent combat against shields that could only be beaten by quick OOS options. A lot of what I could ask though, I'm refraining from doing so because Doc exists.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I wouldn't be so quick to argue Mario was worse off in Brawl. Remove the top 8, the game is pretty balanced. Mario in Brawl had better everything, better hard reads, Jab cancel combos, survivability, and stutter step Fsmash. Mario actually could sometimes kill you in about three hard reads in Brawl with a 70% string and an up angled Fsmash.
Mario needs 5 frames off Utilt, about 2 frames off Dtilt, Dthrow, Uair, and landing with Nair and Dair. 7 frames off Fair landing.

I don't see how removing the most dominant fourth of the game makes Mario a good character...

Take out the Top 8 in Melee and you actually have a decentish game balance-wise (Both within the Top 8 and with what is left after you take them out... So two balanced-ish games).

Melee is still terribly balanced. Same goes for Brawl.

Now, as for Brawl Mario... I don't know enough about him to comment on him so... yeah. But as for Smash 4, give him some more damage or some better frame data, I agree. Also I like @ TTTTTsd 's idea of giving Doc more speed.

Also if they change Mario then they'll have to change Doc as well to keep in with the whole slow but stronger thing, which would be nice because Doc needs some love as well. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sorta worried about giving Doc more running speed now, just a little. I think they should up it a BIT, but not too much.

I mean he's already decent so that would just make him better, so it's likely a pipe dream and not meant for this thread, but I've been getting better mileage off of him with vectoring gone and with a better controller. Doc's Shorthop game is really fierce since they still autocancel really smoothly. I feel like Mario has to go in and out whereas Doc just has to go in and stay in.

 

[Chuva]

He could use less ending lag on tornado

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sorta worried about giving Doc more running speed now, just a little. I think they should up it a BIT, but not too much.

I mean he's already decent so that would just make him better, so it's likely a pipe dream and not meant for this thread, but I've been getting better mileage off of him with vectoring gone and with a better controller. Doc's Shorthop game is really fierce since they still autocancel really smoothly. I feel like Mario has to go in and out whereas Doc just has to go in and stay in.

Doc is really scary with custom Tornado allowing really deep edgeguards. Like holy hell, Doc's B-air and its vomit inducing power.

That, F-air landing lag reduction, and slight run speed buff, maaaybe more hitstun on pills, he's golden.

I don't see how removing the most dominant fourth of the game makes Mario a good character...

Take out the Top 8 in Melee and you actually have a decentish game balance-wise (Both within the Top 8 and with what is left after you take them out... So two balanced-ish games).

Melee is still terribly balanced. Same goes for Brawl.

Now, as for Brawl Mario... I don't know enough about him to comment on him so... yeah. But as for Smash 4, give him some more damage or some better frame data, I agree. Also I like @ TTTTTsd 's idea of giving Doc more speed.

Also if they change Mario then they'll have to change Doc as well to keep in with the whole slow but stronger thing, which would be nice because Doc needs some love as well. I think we can all agree on that.

Mario would probably be top tier in Melee if you removed the current top tier because then in that case he basically beats everyone that isn't named Samus or Ganondorf. His tier ranking is literally held back by specific bad matchups, while the only reason Doc is above Mario is because he does better instakilling space animals if they let him touch them.

Brawl Mario also would probably be recognized as realisticaly mid tier if you got rid of various top tiers given Brawl top tiers are just kinda very obviously unfairly strong and held him back competitively.

Smash 4 Mario...actually would likely get worse if you removed the top tier, because he has a few specific not totally stupid matchups against characters like Rosalina, Yoshi, and Fox, while one of his worst matchups Marth is not a top tier.

Basically, Mario has a better and more complete gameplan in previous games, but the top tiers in those games are just poorly designed broken characters that from a design perspective shouldn't be relevant. In Smash 4, more characters have reasonable design paradigms, while Mario got crapped on massively, thus removing the best characters in Smash 4 still leaves Mario a character with very glaring problems that just surface in other matchups.

 

[NairWizard]

@Emblem Lord got his wish. We are no longer talking about . Now we're talking about the other guy with a Nintendo hat, !

(which is fine, not to discredit A2ZOMG's passion, but it's a little amusing)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wasn't planning on it, I swear. It's just I've constantly been pissed off by Clash Tournaments for just constantly disappointing me, and given the stuff they uploaded recently, I decided I had enough of being quiet about their nonsense. People have often cited Nyani's Mario for competitive analysis, and they've done so for the wrong reasons. She is not that great, but her opposition in matches where she wins is embarrassing at times. And commentators perpetuate lies about Mario being scary, clearly because they don't know anything.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What...nonsense exactly? Pardon if I sound uneducated but it's just videos of people playing Smash....

Or did they make a tier list? Or any sort of spread? I'm not too sure....

Also fun fact, Mario's gotten more representation here than ever before! Just a funny little tidbit

 

[NairWizard]

I think the reason that people think that Mario is fine is because he has good frame data. He flows very smoothly when you play him. Most bad characters are bad because they lack good flow. You have to really learn their options and create a tight gameplan to get any kind of smoothness in their gameplay (I'm thinking of guys like Dedede here; playing him feels clunky and awkward at first). When I play Mario I feel much more comfortable and win much more than when I play someone like Ganondorf.

As the metagame develops and players execute more quickly with their characters and create new gameplans, I'm sure that Mario will not seem so good any more.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well, I'm glad I set my sights on Dr. Mario and stuck with him despite all the fluff that went around him initially...

I do feel pretty bad for Mario, he FLOWS really well on paper and he feels good to like, use (much like Doc), but, yeah.....

 

[Chuva]

@Emblem Lord got his wish. We are no longer talking about . Now we're talking about the other guy with a Nintendo hat, !

The thread is just following it's never-ending loop course:

- Character X is being slept on
- Is Kirby bad?
- Diddy/Rosalina/Yoshi too strong
- Intense Mario debate
- Hating on Sonic
- Insert miscellaneous subject (Ness bthrow too good)

repeat

 

[TTTTTsd]

The thread is just following it's never-ending loop course:

- Character X is being slept on
- Is Kirby bad?
- Diddy/Rosalina/Yoshi too strong
- Intense Mario debate
- Hating on Sonic
- Insert miscellaneous subject (Ness bthrow too good)

repeat

While some interesting stuff has been going on this is a pretty funny analysis lmao. That's pretty much it tho lol

 

[NairWizard]

The thread is just following it's never-ending loop course:

- Character X is being slept on
- Is Kirby bad?
- Diddy/Rosalina/Yoshi too strong
- Intense Mario debate
- Hating on Sonic
- Insert miscellaneous subject (Ness bthrow too good)

repeat

X is pretty slept on, though. He hasn't even gotten a single page of discussion yet!

 

[HeroMystic]

What...nonsense exactly? Pardon if I sound uneducated but it's just videos of people playing Smash....

Basically, commentators during tourneys were saying Mario was scary because he can combo and Gust Cape is pretty lulzy. Granted, Mario with customs makes a good impression but that's because it's new.

X is pretty slept on, though. He hasn't even gotten a single page of discussion yet!

X >>>>> Megaman. Just sayin.

 

[Jabejazz]

Basically, commentators during tourneys were saying Mario was scary because he can combo and Gust Cape is pretty lulzy. Granted, Mario with customs makes a good impression but that's because it's new.

Unrelated to Mario, but pretty sure I heard one of the commentators yesterday mentioning you couldn't tech Ganon's Flame Choke.

X >>>>> Megaman. Just sayin.

Seconded.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think the reason that people think that Mario is fine is because he has good frame data. He flows very smoothly when you play him. Most bad characters are bad because they lack good flow. You have to really learn their options and create a tight gameplan to get any kind of smoothness in their gameplay (I'm thinking of guys like Dedede here; playing him feels clunky and awkward at first). When I play Mario I feel much more comfortable and win much more than when I play someone like Ganondorf.

As the metagame develops and players execute more quickly with their characters and create new gameplans, I'm sure that Mario will not seem so good any more.

See...and this is where I would argue a character like Ganondorf is better designed than Mario. Ganondorf is a character whose success is less about knowing his own options, but understanding his opponent's. Yes you have to know what individual purposes your moves serve, but beyond that small learning hump, Ganondorf is a very simple and intuitive character. It just comes down to grappler logic from there.

Mario has a much more infuriating design where he offers a lot of stuff that is supposed to appear intuitive, but then once you actually get into case by case scenarios, you realize that Mario is extremely unnecessarily complicated. Not actually hard to play, but unreliable to the point of burdening you with the requirement of knowing matchup specific move interactions.

I learned how to play Brawl by playing Ganondorf, because I didn't actually have to focus on my own character after I got down a few mechanical basics. With Mario in Brawl...I always felt like I was forced to know a crapton of stuff to make up for all the dumb things that weren't consistent in his kit, though at least in Brawl I knew that my reward was massive enough to make a few reads and win if I was patient enough to not get gimped.

And now, Ganondorf's aerials actually flow reasonably, and he's probably a straight mid tier. And I mean, there isn't really a low tier, but Mario just clearly is less powerful than most of the other characters on the bottom half of the cast.

Reading youtube comments anyhow is depressing when all people want to do is resort to bad observations and ad-hominem to defend lies about Mario magically being good.

 

[deepseadiva]

I found THIS thread. Might be useful for... some... of you...

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

sight it's always the same with this thread..

On an interesting note I found it funny how people were saying luigi sucks and is bottom tier but the minute he won a tourney everyone's opinion on him did the biggest 360 of life.. smh.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Guys... An Olimar won our European tournament today. Not a big turnout this time, but he beat one of our best EU players who's even placed well in US tournament so that's really saying something. Honestly though I think it says "player skill can really help a character."

I don't know about Olimar, he feels like he could be okay but he's not going to be breaking into the top ever. I'm just not sure if he rests in the bottom 10 or just a tad bit over.

BTW A LOT of votes on their upvote/downvote tier list. Some of the results are obviously going to be kinda wack (I can see them already even though it's in contest mode) but soon you'll know what the general masses think on characters at least. It should be curious to discuss.

 

[A2ZOMG]

sight it's always the same with this thread..

On an interesting note I found it funny how people were saying luigi sucks and is bottom tier but the minute he won a tourney everyone's opinion on him did the biggest 360 of life.. smh.

I swear, the inconsistent observations made by so many people...

I called that he was underrated LONG before that happened. Guys, I know what I'm talking about. And **** me, this is me not even having the game and I am able to see this.

Guys... An Olimar won our European tournament today. Not a big turnout this time, but he beat one of our best EU players who's even placed well in US tournament so that's really saying something. Honestly though I think it says "player skill can really help a character."

I don't know about Olimar, he feels like he could be okay but he's not going to be breaking into the top ever. I'm just not sure if he rests in the bottom 10 or just a tad bit over.

BTW A LOT of votes on their upvote/downvote tier list. Some of the results are obviously going to be kinda wack (I can see them already even though it's in contest mode) but soon you'll know what the general masses think on characters at least. It should be curious to discuss.

I think a few people were saying Olimar after the patch was underrated. I don't claim to know much about him given there is very limited footage of the character, but if his buffs are doing work, that's good to hear.

And by the way Meno, your trolling is very relevant. I'm being emotional, but I'm on topic. What are you?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

sight it's always the same with this thread..

On an interesting note I found it funny how people were saying luigi sucks and is bottom tier but the minute he won a tourney everyone's opinion on him did the biggest 360 of life.. smh.

What are you talking about?

Didn't you hear Luigi was being slept on?

 

[19_]

Not to be rude A2ZOMG but I do not understand your argument. Are you trying to say mario is bad because he is outclassed? Usually the reason why a character is not as good is because someone else on the roster can do there job better.

Also in general I like to think the more options a fighter has the better. When you play a game the best way to win is to out smart your opponent. More options means the more of a chance your opponent will be wrong.

 

[Locke 06]

sight it's always the same with this thread..

On an interesting note I found it funny how people were saying luigi sucks and is bottom tier but the minute he won a tourney everyone's opinion on him did the biggest 360 of life.. smh.

Luigi can jumpless cyclone. That is information most people didn't have until that tournament and changes one of his perceived weaknesses into a somewhat legitimate strength. He's not a god (although he still wrecks up close off that dthrow) but change one character's weakness into a strength and opinions will change.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not to be rude A2ZOMG but I do not understand your argument. Are you trying to say mario is bad because he is outclassed? Usually the reason why a character is not as good is because someone else on the roster can do there job better.

Also in general I like to think the more options a fighter has the better. When you play a game the best way to win is to out smart your opponent. More options means the more of a chance your opponent will be wrong.

Forget that Mario is definitely outclassed. Just...seriously. Do a simple risk/reward analysis.

Mario does bad damage, and he's bad at neutral. And he's also easily killed, and his few good KO options are highly conditional and can't be relied on, and his more reliable KO options are considerably weaker than most other characters.

So basically, how much respect do you need to give Mario when he runs at you? Are you afraid of him when he tries to run up with N-air, B-air, or grab? Is he doing more damage than you just walking back and B-airing?

Just ****ing seriously, Mario can't win a game about trading hits, and his combos are not reliable beyond two hits except against like Ganondorf and Ike.

Now look at Ganondorf, another character who we know is limited in neutral. Now wait a minute, Ganondorf does twice as much damage as Mario when he attacks, and he has MASSIVE range and priority on things like DA, D-tilt, and F-air which are not slow moves. So even though he's not always a safe character, are you sure you really want to challenge Ganon when he's in range to attack?

Furthermore, you might think juggling Ganondorf is easy, but are you sure you want to die to aerial Down-B at 80%?

 

[LiteralGrill]

sight it's always the same with this thread..

On an interesting note I found it funny how people were saying luigi sucks and is bottom tier but the minute he won a tourney everyone's opinion on him did the biggest 360 of life.. smh.

Him having a chaingrab discovered doesn't exactly hurt either

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I swear, the inconsistent observations made by so many people...

I called that he was underrated LONG before that happened. Guys, I know what I'm talking about. And **** me, this is me not even having the game and I am able to see this.

Actually owning the game and playing it would probably help your stance. Or hell, even access to it. Just saying, man.

And by the way Meno, your trolling is very relevant. I'm being emotional, but I'm on topic. What are you?

Not blinded by emotions and concocting unprovable scenarios of two previous iterations' worth of metagames where actual facts and tourney results prove that Mario isn't a strong character. Whereas in Smash 4, he hasn't proven himself enough to determine anything after less than a year of play and after a patch that did change global traits of the game.

No disrespect meant, A2, and I really think you have a sound mind when it comes to fighting game theory, but this absolutist armchair stuff is only gonna carry you so far.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Stepped in voting thread.
Saw a bunch of -1 Shulks.
I don't understand life.

Would one say Marth > Pit and if so would that stretch to Lucina? The general trend throughout the thread is that Marth gives a better overall performance than Pit.
Anyone care to revisit that?

 

[Kofu]

Stepped in voting thread.
Saw a bunch of -1 Shulks.
I don't understand life.

Would one say Marth > Pit and if so would that stretch to Lucina? The general trend throughout the thread is that Marth gives a better overall performance than Pit.
Anyone care to revisit that?

There are so many bad Shulks on For Glory. If people are going by that as a measurement of his abilities it would explain why they feel he's bad. The few I've fought that knew what they were doing make me fear Shulk because of his range and flexibility (I agree with you, Speed Shulk is scary). I still best most of them but Shulk is not to be trifled with.

Also I think Marth is better than Pit just because tippers are absurdly powerful in this game. Lucina's probably not better than Pit though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually owning the game and playing it would probably help your stance. Or hell, even access to it. Just saying, man.

My point is, it's not even that hard to realistically observe things like damage per hit, frame consistency on combos, and general options a character has in the three basic states. The fact I can do this accurately without the game means people need to be held to higher standards.

And how accurate? I can literally give frame data with an error margin of one frame. If I'm able to do this...how are people WITH the game giving me data that I KNOW is flat out incorrect?

Not blinded by emotions and concocting unprovable scenarios of two previous iterations' worth of metagames where actual facts and tourney results prove that Mario isn't a strong character. Whereas in Smash 4, he hasn't proven himself enough to determine anything after less than a year of play and after a patch that did change global traits of the game.

No disrespect meant, A2, and I really think you have a sound mind when it comes to fighting game theory, but this absolutist armchair stuff is only gonna carry you so far.

Smooth Criminal

Firstoff, way to be a hypocrite. You literally haven't presented actual facts in most of your posts, and I bet you don't have them. Maybe you have tournament results, but you don't get to just make that argument without actually citing anything specific.

Also, I never concocted unprovable scenarios about Mario's viability. We know what his matchups are for these games, and there are a lot of conclusive impressions and data to support it (some of which does manage to be incorrect because people like Boss can be pretty ignorant, even if they're talented. Boss is terrible against Melee ICs, because he only knows how to play rushdown, but that's not actually how the matchup works given Mario technically wins it 65/35 by playing super defensively. Again, a perceived lack of relevant information doesn't make anything unprovable when we actually realistically have good information that just sometimes gets ignored)

I am not blinded by emotions either. I fully acknowledge that **** before I say anything. Look at Shaya for that matter. Gets emotional about Marth. Clearly not blinded even when he starts diving into hyperbole. Guy deserves respect man.

Even if you mean well, this kind of bull**** annoys me. It's not even about who is right anymore, just who the hell is even trying to prove anything?

I totally wish I didn't have to resort to this before getting the game...I just rather wish I could have more faith in our observations and analysis. Smash 4 makes it EASY for all the people who played Brawl...

 

[Locke 06]

Also I think Marth is better than Pit just because tippers are absurdly powerful in this game. Lucina's probably not better than Pit though.

Theoretically, Marth is absurd. Tipper fsmash is a bowser fsmash with ¼ the startup and endlag (also w/disjoint). Tipper ftilt is a killer too, and he can cover options incredibly well when he has a positional advantage. His speed/power/range when played optimally is unrivaled in the cast (speed/power is much like aura lucario without the projectile).

The problem with Marth has, and always will be, that he is a perfectionist character that suffers when played non-optimally. In the same way non-auraboosted lucario isn't incredibly scary, non-tipper Marth is a weak swordsman (which is why Lucina isn't worthless).

Marth players can correct me if I'm wrong, but he's always been great for theories (counter + spacing). In reality, you can't space perfectly because your opponent is trying to disrupt it. I imagine that's why there are Marth killers that can defeat high level Marths with any character (brought up earlier in the thread).

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the subject of Marth, thing is, Marth's not tipped hits don't really suck (they're even actually safer than Lucina's on block due to hitlag). And then there's his edgeguarding...which is by far the reason why he's so deadly. He covers basic options extremely well, and he hits like Ganondorf offstage where it's much easier to space his tippers.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wax all you want about how ****ty something (or someone, in this case) is, there is literally NOTHING in the current scheme of things insinuating that Mario is complete and utter trash in this game. Big whoop, you cite ****ing frame data and HYPOTHETICAL situations where the character is at a disadvantage. Lotta people been doing that here, including and especially you. That's what this thread is about. But I have the sense to draw the ****ing line somewhere in the mutable sand of a fresh game. Things will change.

And you blatantly admitting to a lack of actual experience and reputedly being proven wrong on a lot of **** on Brawl Mario (source: I personally know one of the best Brawl Marios, Monk/Honky/Banana, and played him frequently at Brawl's peak. I may not have beaten him as often as I liked, but he taught me a lot about the character and his meta. Not to mention, your forum track record, which he's also mentioned) shows.

To put it simply, I'm more concerned with the actual execution of said data than the data itself---you know, the BIG picture. And we don't have one yet, not by a ****ing long shot. So just wait, and in the meantime, play the ****ing game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[19_]

Forget that Mario is definitely outclassed. Just...seriously. Do a simple risk/reward analysis.

Mario does bad damage, and he's bad at neutral. And he's also easily killed, and his few good KO options are highly conditional and can't be relied on, and his more reliable KO options are considerably weaker than most other characters.

So basically, how much respect do you need to give Mario when he runs at you? Are you afraid of him when he tries to run up with N-air, B-air, or grab? Is he doing more damage than you just walking back and B-airing?

Just ****ing seriously, Mario can't win a game about trading hits, and his combos are not reliable beyond two hits except against like Ganondorf and Ike.

Now look at Ganondorf, another character who we know is limited in neutral. Now wait a minute, Ganondorf does twice as much damage as Mario when he attacks, and he has MASSIVE range and priority on things like DA, D-tilt, and F-air which are not slow moves. So even though he's not always a safe character, are you sure you really want to challenge Ganon when he's in range to attack?

Furthermore, you might think juggling Ganondorf is easy, but are you sure you want to die to aerial Down-B at 80%?

I suppose I would keep throwing fireballs instead of approaching. I just went into training a found that fire balls travel further than I thought(may have been the patch). That being said he is pretty week and moves are not as fast as I want be, his speed may allow me too keep my distance. Thinking about now mario is not good on offense, and would use fireballs, cape(reflect, staling and turn-arounds), and even fludd for keeping them away while raking up damage. I would never let my opponent take me to FD though, mario totally sucks there he needs platforms in order to work.

I won't lie, I do think he is kinda bad, customs help so much though especially gust cape which him even more room to breath. Even still he is so middle ground when it come everything: zoning, combos, damage, knockback, ect. I believe the best use him is to use everything to out predict your opponent. That may not be enough though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wax all you want about ****ty something (or someone, in this case) is, there is literally NOTHING in the current scheme of things insinuating that Mario is complete and utter trash in this game. Big whoop, you cite ****ing frame data and HYPOTHETICAL situations where the character is at a disadvantage. Lotta people been doing that here, including and especially you. That's what this thread is about. But I have the sense to draw the ****ing line somewhere in the mutable sand of a fresh game. Things will change.

To put it simply, I'm more concerned with the actual execution of said data than the data itself---you know, the BIG picture. And we don't have one yet, not by a ****ing long shot.

Smooth Criminal

You're funny. Tell me where I stated Mario is trash. I stated he is bad and needs buffs. And I stated that his one obviously unwinnable matchup is likely Marth. Where in this statement did I say Mario is complete utter trash? If anything I've probably argued against that about equally as much as I've cited that realistically, Mario is bad.

Don't put words in my mouth. This isn't hypothetical either when I am literally telling you from VIDEOS THAT WE CAN ALL SEE that Mario's damage output is crap, and his combo game isn't reliable enough to justify it. Seriously, I haven't even bothered citing personal frame data I've collected except for a very few obscure cases like Ganon's Jab and Rosalina's D-smash. Yes, hypothetical construction is useful. I wouldn't be telling you ANYTHING about a character unless I actually saw something happen, which, in my position, is from publicly available video footage.

 

[Yonder]

Him having a chaingrab discovered doesn't exactly hurt either

It's no where as easy to pull off as DDD's or Falco's in Brawl though. You have to time your jumps and dair spikes. (You CAN 0 death with it though from a grounded up b I think though)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Man I know Emblem Lord didn't like the Diddy talk but at least we all got along during it....

.