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Character Competitive Impressions

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KlefkiHolder

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You guys wanna talk about something else?

How about... :4yoshi:?

I haven't seen like any Americans playing Yoshi on Wii U yet.

So... Is Diddy the new Rosalina & Luma in terms of complaints? ... I can't wait for Falco complaints! ... *waits forever*
Hey you.

There's always Melee. :)
 

ChronoPenguin

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Shulk and Ike are getting overlooked right now even after their buffs. They got insanely better of the last patch.
Not by me he's not

./brokenrecord.

Shulks got way too much going for him right now. Pretty much always feel like I can beat anyone and every loss is on my own and not the character. It's a good feel to have. Well maybe not Jigglypuff I don't know why Jiggly irks me so. Is it because my fastest move is Jab, and Jab 3 cannot connect on Jiggly? Leading me to try weird crap like Jab 1 - Air Slash? The given that as far as High tier and I think Shulk has earned that position at least, he may be the most susceptible to Rest save maybe Lucario if he stays around there. As good as Jump is, She is still a massive threat off-stage. Granted even she she'll be beat. Competitive Shulk will also be really...off if Customs come along. Given the 3 Monado states, you won't want to dismiss any of them, but all 3 have significantly implications on movement speed that require adjustment to. If you have to get used to Monado Speed, Decisive Monado Speed, Hyper Monado Speed, Jump, DJump, Hjump, The Kill percents of all 3 Smash's and your options out of all 3 Busters. Shield is very situational but that's just another movement change to get used to on top of vanilla movement. Even for custom off matches you still have 4 states of movement to learn. Does that lead to a lot of potential? Diddy's only probably overshadowing him because of the lower skill floor on a competitive level.

What are Shulks real qualms right now? He's got a bit of everything. Well I'd assume it's that of his disjoints, dtilt is frame 10. So for all Shulks potency, he has a lot less options given jab is frame 5 and Grab frame 7. There are a multitude of characters who beat that out and leave Shulk never wanting to simply clang with someone as the opponents response to that will often beat out his own.

I still feel like Yoshi is and was going to fall out of grace. Brawler is such a stronger character, Fox as well.
Im shocked that even still nobody wants to talk Gunner.
 
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Kofu

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:v

The D3 boards are awesome, don't hate!

Smooth Criminal
I didn't say they're all bad. But when you have a thread on the Game & Watch boards discussing his personality and traits as a character when he's an amalgam of games from 30 years ago with no personality to speak of. I like the character boards for what they can tell me about playing a character, not usually for small talk.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Anyhow for good characters we need more information about, anyone know about Villager? He has great zoning and edgeguarding, and only seems to be hindered by a tether grab and slightly below average options in close range.
Villager has a very powerful defensive game. His main selling point is his ability to make use of multiple, often powerful and hugely sized hitboxes at once. He can have a gyroid, a tree and a slingshot hitbox out all at the same time and is entirely safe while doing so. Even though Villager's character design appears to have holes here and there, there's a handful of characters who are fundamentally incapable of doing anything against Villager's jank. Villager's defensive capabilities are amplified by his ability to reset back into neutral from a disadvantaged position pretty easily. He may be the very best character at it, actually. You can NOT juggle or combo this character and you will not win any camping battles against this guy. Patience is as important as in hardly any other matchup because being at a stock disadvantage against Villager is the opposite of fun. Like, the literal opposite of it.

His close range options are indeed best described as below average but most of all he really starts to struggle on his part if he is behind in stocks. Once he has to catch up to you it's really becoming obvious where he has his problems: creating openings, making his traps actually work, giving chase to his opponents, doing noteworthy damage to shields and ultimately getting the kill. All his KO power and edgeguarding capabilities kind of fall apart once Villager is behind in stocks. His recovery also leaves him surprisingly vulnerable.

Overall, I think Villager is like a defensively even more capable but ultimately less flexible [and imo slightly worse] version of the duck hunt duo. Villager appears to be advantaged in the direct matchup and he probably wreckts a couple of characters harder than DHD does. But DHD has the better answers against characters that can actually get in on him, and since a lot of these characters seem to be pretty damn good in this game I think it makes DHD ultimately a bit more viable. My experience is playing against the best Villager in Europe on a regular basis.

:059:
 

Sinister Slush

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I haven't seen like any Americans playing Yoshi on Wii U yet.
Delta just got the game and Raptor is always quiet about his tournament results, think he got 9th or something at KTAR XI.

Otherwise EU Slice just got the game and Yika also did some work with him when it was 3ds only. Dunno if the other 3 (not raptor) have results yet.
Any other NA Yoshi's are basically doing moderately well maybe in their region, or just not doing well at all yet cause those are prolly the newer or Bandwagon Yoshi mains.

Also Mii brawler is not better than Yoshi, I'll argue Fox though.
 
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Sirgabite

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am i the only one who thinks that having a :4villager: secondary is extreamly usefull against the moere projectile/strong projectile characters, for example :4megaman: and :4rob: ???
 
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X3I

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Geez...
I think the best move of the game is Game & Watch's UpSmash.
With no doubts, seriously... With the C-stick, it's just ********.

I know I'm such a G&W's fanboy... but this move is stupid, reaaally.
 
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meleebrawler

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Mario is kind of an annoyer in his playstyle. He kinda
reminds me of Jak & Daxter from Playstation All-Stars in that
they both have quite low damage output, but in the right hands
can be very difficult to catch, whilst they annoy their opponents with
bouncing projectiles. Jak had his jump-refreshing bounce attack, while
Mario has fast-fall Tornados to throw off juggles and Cape and FLUDD
disrupt frontal assaults.

Basically, Mario gets results from staying out of arm's reach of
characters and frustrating them so badly in the process that they
make mistakes he can capitalize on.
 

~ Gheb ~

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On Topic: Sheik still better then Diddy imo.

Better neutral and her risk vs reward is still solid. And I don't think she loses to anyone.
Dude, no. Sheik got the completely wrong treatment with theat patch, man. Everything that wasn't top tierish about her - mainly her kill power - has been made even worse. Like, you can look at all her fundamentals and her neutral game and you'll probably think she's amazing and top tier and all. But then you try to - you know - actually win with this character and you'll realize how much she got hurt. She's not better than Diddy right now. I really doubt she's even in the same tier as Diddy right now. We can talk about that once they fix Diddy's uair but not now.

I think she loses to Lucario btw. If she didn't already lose to him prior to the patch, she most likely does now.

Delta just got the game and Raptor is always quiet about his tournament results, think he got 9th or something at KTAR XI.

Otherwise EU Slice just got the game and Yika also did some work with him when it was 3ds only. Dunno if the other 3 (not raptor) have results yet.
Any other NA Yoshi's are basically doing moderately well maybe in their region, or just not doing well at all yet cause those are prolly the newer or Bandwagon Yoshi mains.

Also Mii brawler is not better than Yoshi, I'll argue Fox though.
1.) Slice got 2nd / 30+ people at the launchtournament for the Wii U version of smash 4 today.
2.) Fox is not better than Yoshi. Fox is very good but Yoshi's ability to have out safe and rewarding hitbox like ... all of the time with minimal risk is simply on another level as Fox. He's right up on par with Sonic and Diddy imho though it seems like I'm alone with that opinion ...

:059:
 
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LiteralGrill

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Hey guys, didja know Meta Knight can stop Sonic Spin Dash with properly timed shuttle loops and tornadoes?

Maybe we got a nice counter to sonic, tornado wracks damage, shuttle loop kills. Be careful if you dash Sonic.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I didn't say they're all bad. But when you have a thread on the Game & Watch boards discussing his personality and traits as a character when he's an amalgam of games from 30 years ago with no personality to speak of. I like the character boards for what they can tell me about playing a character, not usually for small talk.
I was just being a dweeb with that, Kofu. I am going to try and spur more productive conversation on the D3 boards where I can. I tell ya too, if I were moderating there I would can the lameass threads about the character sucking.

Smooth Criminal
 

Sinister Slush

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Oh right, he was just discussing the tournament earlier and even gave a link to the stream lol. But he didn't give results, good on him getting 2nd.
Was mostly guessing with the fox statement cause I think he's pretty good but I would've still put like a 55:45/+1 Yoshi if it came down to who wins the MU.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Was mostly guessing with the fox statement cause I think he's pretty good but I would've still put like a 55:45/+1 Yoshi if it came down to who wins the MU.
I agree on both parts. Fox is really good but Yoshi beats him.

And yeah, Ike and Shulk DEFINITELY got overbuffed. Like, there was nothing wrong with these characters that required a buff in the first place and now these guys just got massive buffs all around just like that. I have no idea wtf the developers were thinking when they did that.

:059:
 
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A2ZOMG

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And yeah, Ike and Shulk DEFINITELY got overbuffed. Like, there was nothing wrong with these characters that required a buff in the first place and now these guys just got massive buffs all around just like that. I have no idea wtf the developers were thinking when they did that.

:059:
They needed minor buffs if the comparison is to the top 15. But yeah, overbuffed seems accurate.

Mario is kind of an annoyer in his playstyle. He kinda
reminds me of Jak & Daxter from Playstation All-Stars in that
they both have quite low damage output, but in the right hands
can be very difficult to catch, whilst they annoy their opponents with
bouncing projectiles. Jak had his jump-refreshing bounce attack, while
Mario has fast-fall Tornados to throw off juggles and Cape and FLUDD
disrupt frontal assaults.

Basically, Mario gets results from staying out of arm's reach of
characters and frustrating them so badly in the process that they
make mistakes he can capitalize on.
And, Diddy, Pikachu, and Sheik all do that way better than Mario. And Mario dies much faster than any of them when he's caught, because he literally has no way to force people to respect him when he's juggled and edgeguarded.

Are you trying to suggest this character isn't still bad? I don't need any more of this nonsense for a character that legitimately needs buffs and has a very disappointingly unrewarding gameplan where even when you're juggling people, you are deathly afraid of trading.
 

RonNewcomb

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At the risk of sounding like a scrub, I'd like to repeat what was said earlier about Link > Diddy, but for different reasons. The MU reminds me of Juri vs Cody in SF. Juri has better projectile zoning and slightly better footsies than Cody (because her disjoints on far MK & cr.MP are wow) but Cody hits like a truck. At lower levels of play it seems the MU is in Cody's favor 'cause he'll suddenly end Juri, but as the Juri player closes the holes in the zoning & footsies, the MU ends at 6:4 Juri's favor, because Cody hasn't great approaches. I see Link vs Diddy this exact same way. Diddy seems to win for now, early in the game's lifecycle.
 

NairWizard

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Yes, Link has difficulty pressing his advantage against Diddy.

Link might win in neutral, but in advantage and disadvantage he's not so great.
 

|RK|

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As a Lucario main, I've gotta say - his best matchups are against characters with low kill power. It makes it easier to survive at crazy percents, and so the Sheik matchup is likely more in our favor now. Can't say for certain, though.
 

san.

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Been playing Mii Gunner for a short while and this guy is ridiculous, couldn't see any weaknesses and has a good chance at dominating some characters.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Been playing Mii Gunner for a short while and this guy is ridiculous, couldn't see any weaknesses and has a good chance at dominating some characters.
Thank you Jesus. Someone else sees.

But where are you feeling him? Im putting him above default DhD in all seriousness. I mentioned this a couple pages back but my perception of Dhd is very much so around his Can. Dhd can do work in cqc, but what he aims for is can set-ups either to chain from or into. Players who successfully zone around the can, cut down DHD's threat more then they do Villager if I had to compare him to someone else. Gunner isn't like this in the least. While Grenade launcher connects into other moves, as does his F-air, gunners U-Smash and dtilt are still lethal. His N-air is a good keep-away, and his grab game works because U-air lasts for so long. Ftilt being disjointed is just another bonus. I don't want to be another "definitely in the Top X" but he's absolutely a character to look out for and like early 3ds with Brawler warrants more attention then he is receiving.

Shulk > Lucario from a MU standpoint. You can go for the gimp at 30-50% or so with Smash. Due to its elevated KB but low damage. You'll get several opportunities to try and kill him before he reaches 70%. Once he passes the mark of BS recov you still outrange a bulk of his moves and have similar start-up and lag. In general Shulk gets to Scale Lucario up however he pleases, while possessing all the KO potential he needs other characters do not have this liberty.
 
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KlefkiHolder

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Been playing Mii Gunner for a short while and this guy is ridiculous, couldn't see any weaknesses and has a good chance at dominating some characters.
Just out of curiosity, what set are you running on Gunner?
 

~ Gheb ~

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I mentioned this a couple pages back but my perception of Dhd is very much so around his Can. Dhd can do work in cqc, but what he aims for is can set-ups either to chain from or into.
You're half-wrong. The can's utility is not to be questioned by any means but that doesn't mean that his gameplan should be centered around it so much. On the contrary: since the can's utility is so obvious DHD players should put more focus on his other moves and how to make ideal use of it. Once they realize what they can do with his moveset, that's when implementing the can becomes really fun. The can by itself is useful but not really outstanding. Only in tandem with his other moves, especially his projectiles, does the move truly shine.
I think the gunman is really good. It produces an additional hurtbox in front of DHD that allows him to use can and clay pidgeon from a safe position. But it also produces a hitbox that literally covers DHDs back and can actually set-up CQC shenanigans. When you throw in good use of can DHDs damage output will start to stand out imo. But I don't think we'll get to see any of that if people fail to realize that the character has a lot more going from him than just the can.

:059:
 

Kofu

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I was just being a dweeb with that, Kofu. I am going to try and spur more productive conversation on the D3 boards where I can. I tell ya too, if I were moderating there I would can the ******* threads about the character sucking.

Smooth Criminal
Okay lol, I don't always recognize sarcasm. But a lot of the character boards need work. Then again, the game is only a few months old and there hasn't been much time to develop any metagame.

The Game & Watch boards have a lot of lamenting about the nerfs he got. I don't think they're justified when comparing him to Dedede, though.

Anyway, I think Villager will probably have the most polarizing matchups in the game. His recovery is absurd and the amount of projectiles he can throw out is really obnoxious. However, he struggles to get in against characters with good reflectors, especially if they have projectiles as well. Practically all his approaching options are projectile-based. He has good anti-air capabilities and is excellent at gimping (he often doesn't need to leave the stage). Kill power is a little lacking, especially if you forgo normal Timber for Counter Timber, but several of his aerials can kill and if you can land DSmash it leads right into USmash. His greatest weakness is easily his grab. It's slow on both start and end and its range is barely more than a normal grab. All his throws have good setup potential, however, and BThrow tends to kill around 140-150%.

His customs are interesting. Garden is a great option against characters that don't have projectiles or who don't use them often, dealing 10% while keeping the invincibility and ability to grab projectiles from normal Pocket (they don't have the multiplier nor does the move have the grab range the default has). Rising Lloid might be useful for catching people high above him but Villager can already do that well and you sacrifice the horizontal control normal Lloid offers. Pushy Lloid doesn't go as far but it doesn't explode from every hit, allowing it to block projectiles better. Extreme Balloon Trip is a much safer, if not as versatile, recovery, and Counter Timber further enhances his stage control abilities.

I think he's a solid, if a little gimmicky, character. I don't think he's especially comparable to Duck Hunt, since Duck Hunt's projectiles are a lot more potent on principle since he has direct control over two of them. He also has generally superior close combat options (and a grab that actually works). Villager, on the other hand, is more of a patient projectile user who waits for an opening so he can go in and do more than chip damage.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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lol to be honest i cant really talk about miis until we come up with some rules on how heavy or light they can be. since im against the numerous reajustment of learning the mu of the same character with different attributes. also im positive miis wont be patched because they were not ment for competitive play in the first place. so if we want them in we gotta do the balacing as in not having lighters/faster mii brawler. since the 49 character will be getting tweaked every once in a while i feel miis will eventualy get a leg up on all the cast since they will remain unchanged.
 

Chuva

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Sheik vs Lucario matchup is the definition of agony. Most tournament matches of this matchup that I saw followed the same script: Sheik destroys Lucario in neutral -> Sheik struggles to get a kill -> Sheik dies to Lucario after 3 or 4 good reads from him

And personally I find Gunner better than DHD and any other zoner/projectile character in general. That character is simply too solid and has tools to dictate matchups from so many approaches. Grenade Launch, Uair, Fair and Fsmash are just oppressive.
 
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NairWizard

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Sheik vs Lucario matchup is the definition of agony. Most tournament matches of this matchup that I saw followed the same script: Sheik destroys Lucario in neutral -> Sheik struggles to get a kill -> Sheik dies to Lucario's after 3 or 4 good reads from him

And personally I find Gunner better than DHD and any other zoner/projectile character in general. That character is simply too solid and has tools to dictate matchups from so many approaches. Grenade Launch, Uair, Fair and Fsmash are just oppressive.
Sheik vs. Lucario (and Pikachu vs. Lucario, which is similar) gets easier if you approach the matchup from a slightly different mentality than most. Don't try to KO Lucario when he's at high %s, try to grab him and throw him offstage. Once he's offstage, he might have a huge recovery, but he puts himself at risk of dying when he uses it. The patch gave him immense landing lag after up-b, so he's pretty much forced to go for the ledge or die against fast characters like Sheik and Pikachu (as Sheik, dash in Bouncing Fish: you have plenty of time to land it while Lucario is in endlag). Once he's on the ledge, you can ledge trump b-air or read his getup, but he's not as scary as he is on the stage (no Aura Spheres or anything: he can grab you or jab you on getup, but you're not worried about a jab, and his b-throw doesn't kill as easily as Sonic's or Ness' so it's not *that* scary). That's 90% of the time how you will have to get your KOs against him.

tl;dr, Lucario on the ledge is a far different beast, and one that you can abuse. Get him offstage, then win.
 

Shaya

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So many projectiles/moves have unique or specific conditions on what happens when they hit shields (and power shields). Bombs always bouncing off of shields is an interesting quirk now, and so do many other moves (allowing us to get better at the specific windows of opportunity for punishing them).

I would say Villager feels more like the Toon Link of this game. Although Toon Link himself is likely one of the most underrated characters out there, his projectile rotation is faster than it was in Brawl. Something I learned from Texas (the land of the holy scripture, the Toon Link Chronicles and basically being toon link central) was to keep an eye on your projectile count in the stats screen post match, it's a really good indication of how well you were playing usually.

In Brawl, you'd expect about 100+ projectiles within a normal match (which is usually 6-8 minutes because Toon Link). I find a lot of my matches breaching 100 projectiles within 3-5 minutes. I think it has a lot to do with the almost lagless Boomerang regrab, it's extremely speedy return on hit, and eh, bow feels slightly faster too but who knows.

Also finally got to play WiiU last night; being able to buffer dash attacks easily with Falco? ****ING PRICELESS
Oh my god Falco is good.
 
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Browny

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After playing this all through the day and night and using almost every character...

Has almost every character been nerfed thoroughly, with some less nerfed than others? Few exceptions like bowser and link. I... dont think I can take this competitively. I honestly dont get it we were told that this is faster than brawl but everything feels slower. Characters might move faster but attacks in general have larger start-up and end-lag.

I shed a tear for falcos dair as I missed the worlds easiest spike on Links recovery and SD'd because of it. Is this now the worst attack in the game?
 
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san.

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Then there is Gunner's surprisingly potent upsmash. I was using all of the grenade-like specials, all he needs.
 

ChronoPenguin

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You're half-wrong. The can's utility is not to be questioned by any means but that doesn't mean that his gameplan should be centered around it so much. On the contrary: since the can's utility is so obvious DHD players should put more focus on his other moves and how to make ideal use of it. Once they realize what they can do with his moveset, that's when implementing the can becomes really fun. The can by itself is useful but not really outstanding. Only in tandem with his other moves, especially his projectiles, does the move truly shine.
I think the gunman is really good. It produces an additional hurtbox in front of DHD that allows him to use can and clay pidgeon from a safe position. But it also produces a hitbox that literally covers DHDs back and can actually set-up CQC shenanigans. When you throw in good use of can DHDs damage output will start to stand out imo. But I don't think we'll get to see any of that if people fail to realize that the character has a lot more going from him than just the can.

:059:
I prefer to be Half-right, but really its about what I mean. He clearly has his other specials, but it's pressure that forces you inwards where the Can most likely is, which lets him then go to try and play with your approach but then it all goes back to how he's conditioning you with the can. I'd call him a character with a sizeable skill cap, but I feel Gunner has that straight efficiency that arguably doesn't even require him to have Dhd's zoning complexity. Even still Gunner gets to be creative with his projectiles.

With some scenes only allowing "standard" Mii's to boot, Gunner's probably the only Mii that's actually viable, just because how solid his movepool is from normals to specials. Up B3 Is troll as hell.
 
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NairWizard

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Since we're on the topic of zoners: this character Toon Link is seriously underrated. Yes, he has a tether grab, but it's a tether grab that kills because b-throw is ridiculous. Disjoints, speed/mobility, a recovery that's hard to edgeguard (because of tether), and projectiles out the wazoo--and his projectiles aren't just dead against reflectors, either. Bombs and boomerangs are both useful even when reflectors are involved (except for Palutena's, that's kind of a ridiculous one).
 

|RK|

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Sheik vs. Lucario (and Pikachu vs. Lucario, which is similar) gets easier if you approach the matchup from a slightly different mentality than most. Don't try to KO Lucario when he's at high %s, try to grab him and throw him offstage. Once he's offstage, he might have a huge recovery, but he puts himself at risk of dying when he uses it. The patch gave him immense landing lag after up-b, so he's pretty much forced to go for the ledge or die against fast characters like Sheik and Pikachu (as Sheik, dash in Bouncing Fish: you have plenty of time to land it while Lucario is in endlag). Once he's on the ledge, you can ledge trump b-air or read his getup, but he's not as scary as he is on the stage (no Aura Spheres or anything: he can grab you or jab you on getup, but you're not worried about a jab, and his b-throw doesn't kill as easily as Sonic's or Ness' so it's not *that* scary). That's 90% of the time how you will have to get your KOs against him.

tl;dr, Lucario on the ledge is a far different beast, and one that you can abuse. Get him offstage, then win.
TBF, we can cancel most of the lag from landing on stage. It's certainly more difficult when you're going for some weird unpredictable angle, but it is doable to hit a smooth slide rather than toppling over.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
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27,654
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/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
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ShayaJP
I don't mind his zair, not used to it in this game though. Feels like you always have a projectile to throw with the way boomerang was changed, hence the "there's a boomerang, 2 bombs floating around, and 3 arrows flying, i cannot do much else: zair" is not as common as it once were.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
"there's a boomerang, 2 bombs floating around, and 3 arrows flying"

oof, this made me remember that one Christmas song that ends in "And a partridge in a pear tree."

4 Links in color,
3 arrows flying,
2 bombs a-floating...


k got a hold of myself you may continue
 
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