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Character Competitive Impressions

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north-note

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the trouble i have with diddy kong is his unexpected range, main as kirby, while I dont have much problem with taking damage, I have trouble with his rather short reach, is being against diddy kong who have much range, make him almost untouchable. however countering him is not impossible, you can waith for diddy to attack and punish him when he missed. note that I'm fighting a level 9 cpu.
also as Kirby, he's difficult to use but as along as you know what you are doing, he can stand on his own.
 
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the trouble i have with diddy kong is his unexpected range, main as kirby, while I dont have much problem with taking damage, I have trouble with his rather short reach, is being against diddy kong who have much range, make him almost untouchable. however countering him is not impossible, you can waith for diddy to attack and punish him when he missed. note that I'm fighting a level 9 cpu.
also as Kirby, he's difficult to use but as along as you know what you are doing, he can stand on his own.
Don't try to learn the match up by going against a level 9 cpu. Level 9 Diddy screws up his recovery even without anyone even hitting him. You're better off watching tournament videos/streams or playing with a good Diddy player
 

Nocally

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Some thoughts on edgeguarding Diddy as Pikachu. I was going to post this on the Pikachu boards (and will eventually, after some more testing), but I think that this is important for our understanding of Diddy competitively.

Diddy is either going to recover high or recover low. Most Diddys know that their up-b is susceptible to gimping so they try to recover high first, and then recover low if that fails. As Pikachu, you have ample time to react to whichever option the Diddy picks.

High

If Diddy recovers high, you can Thunder him (Monkey Flip *is* a commitment) or b-air him depending on how high he is. If he tries some b-reverse shenanigan then the b-air will catch him out of it because b-air has so. many. hitboxes. Anyway, if he recovers high, he's facing lots of options from Pikachu. Don't let Diddy Monkey Flip back to the stage for free: you can catch it and hit him back offstage.

Low
If he recovers low or if you caught him out of his attempt to recover high, then he's got a couple of choices.

Monkey Flip:

He can Monkey Flip to the ledge, in which case you should see the Monkey Flip coming and b-air--he'll try to position himself so that he's on the same vertical level as the ledge of the stage, so even if he chooses not to Monkey Flip and up-bs instead, the same tactics will apply, and you can preemptively begin your b-air. The super bold can time a Thunder--if you do it right and it hits Pikachu at the moment that Diddy's kick does, then you will kill Diddy without taking any damage yourself. If you see Diddy drop lower than ledge-level, then you know he's going to...

Up-b:

Up-bs come in two flavors: he can charge from =down deep or he can charge a horizontal rocketbarrel. If he charges from =down deep then he's yours, you have tons of options. The best is fall-down n-air or f-air if he's close enough (or b-air if he's super close to the stage--this is the easiest gimping scenario; even angling won't save him). This will kill Diddy outright. Another really good option if Diddy isn't that deep is to go deeper than Diddy (fastfall) and up-b back to the edge. Since rocketbarrel is slower than Pikachu's up-b, you can interrupt his barrels and gimp him just by carefully angling your recovery. If you want to play it safe you can Thunderjolt if you can aim it carefully, but I've found that Diddys can just angle around the Tjolt and survive. Plus, the longer Diddy charges his barrels, the more control he has over where he ends up (since he goes further and has more time to angle).

If he charges a horizontal rocketbarrel, you probably can't gimp him, but Diddys don't like doing this because they can hit the edge of the stage and just die (it's a really silly thing). He could choose to rocketbarrel all the way back to the surface of the stage and land there, but that's a free punish for you (even though Diddy's stock stays intact). If he's at high enough percent, you can just run in and up-smash him after he crashes. Just watch out for the blast impact of the rocketbarrels (so insert a minor pause in your run: run part of the way there, wait, then run in and up-smash while he's in endlag).

Pikachu won't succesfully KO Diddy every single time that Diddy is offstage, but it'll happen often enough that Pikachu should be favored in the matchup by a significant margin. Diddy can't really edgeguard Pikachu in return: Diddy just has to throw a banana or try to catch your up-b with a f-air and basically let you get to the ledge for free. So that leaves the onstage game. Here, Diddy kills earlier and has better d-throw followups, but Pikachu's quick attack and thunderjolt match advantage for advantage, with QA being both an approach tool that gets around Diddy's f-air and also an escape tool that gets around banana and edge traps.
I think you forgot Diddy Kong´s wall clinging in your analysis, otherwise a good read.
 
D

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No but really was anyone surprise by this? After the nerf to all the 'top tiers' besides Diddy Kong it's not surprising he's now just the best.
I'm not really surprised. If you ask me though, he's not too good. He's certainly beatable.
 
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Diddy is more boring to watch than brawl MK

Cookie-cutter bull**** all day long omg. At least MK was somewhat cool to watch with his crazy edgeguards.

- edit, I have no advice for you sorry, I dont even own the game yet.
Diddy was cookie cutter bull**** in brawl, too, tbh

Diddy in brawl had one of the most braindead flowcharts out there, that's not to say he couldn't make smart plays or decisions or anything, but his gameplan was reasonably straight forward overall
 
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Signia

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It blows my mind that people seem to think that doing a late aerial into the ground should be a relatively safe action.
In order to connect with a shield with a low aerial, you have to put them in a position where they are passive, since it takes too long to get to them if you do a late aerial. This game also has fairly reliable anti-airs that not only beat most aerials, but are especially punishing, like utilts for true combos, and up-smashes that kill. Some Up-Bs and u-smashes even have invincibility frames like a Street Fighter DP.

So let me ask you this: If anti-airs exist, why should late aerials be unsafe? The jumper already would have to force them to shield and/or get through the anti-air. Isn't that risky enough? Does the jumper not deserve to earn anything from having the initiative?

I mean, the mix up could be:
-Late aerial "beats" shield - reward is safe negative frames, but if it hits it would lead to a true combo or at least +frames
-Any attack beats late aerial - reward is a true combo or juggle
-Early aerial beats some attacks - reward is some damage and +frames
-Anti-air/disjoints beat all aerial timings - reward is a true combo or juggle
-Shielding beats early aerial - reward is out of shield punishes
-Early fastfall or air dodge beats anti-airs? - not always possible but the reward is a dash grab or attack as a whiff punish
-Wait and bait beats anti-airs - If you are close enough and the air-speed is fast enough that it's impossible to anti-air on reaction, they'll forced to anti-air on prediction to beat aerials. This could be baited. Reward is a dashing punish or +frames.

Result: It's dangerous to jump-in if the opponent is looking for it and is ready to react with an anti-air, or, if the character lacks strong anti-airs they must read the aerial attack timing.

But instead, it's:
-Late aerial beats no defensive response from the opponent - reward is damage and either - or + frames, rarely a combo, if it hits
-Any attack beats late aerial - reward is a true combo or juggle
-Early aerial beats some attacks - reward is some damage but -frames
-Anti-air/disjoints beat all aerial timings - reward is a true combo or juggle
-Shielding beats early aerial - reward is out of shield punishes
-Shielding beats late aerial - reward is shield grab
-Early fastfall or air dodge beats anti-airs? - not always possible but the reward is a dash grab or attack as a whiff punish
-Wait and bait beats anti-airs - If you are close enough and the air-speed is fast enough that it's impossible to anti-air on reaction, they'll forced to anti-air on prediction to beat aerials. This could be baited. Reward is a dashing punish or +frames.

Result: Why would you try and anti-air? Just shield, it beats everything. Guy jumping in? Sorry, you can't do that. Instead you can only do aerials that auto-cancel, allow you to fade away, or avoid punishment in some way. You can't really jump in, you only poke at them and fade back/crossup. Instead of being able to choose between that less committal but less rewarding set of options and a high risk, high reward committed mixups, you can only play low risk, low reward or high risk, low-medium reward, no matter what position you have your opponent in.

It would absolutely be better if the game had less landing lag or shield stun from aerials. I don't think long range aerials deserve to be safe unless they are spaced, though. Safe attacks give you reward for taking the initiative. I don't think the current system does that.
 

LiteralGrill

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Well I feel like we need to talk about Meta Knight. I was toying with him today and was curious what people thought on him. anyone wanna do an exciting write up on him?
 

Emblem Lord

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I'm shocked you guys are still taking this thread seriously.

Sakurai is going to nerf Diddy straight to hell. Knowing the perfectionist this man is and his desire to make players of all characters feel like they have a shot, diddy is an affront to everything he stands for.

Just relax dudes. Let's see where the dust settles after two years.

Diddy is braindead. So what? This game is NOT hard to play.

Sorry if I crushed anyone's dreams.

I'm not sorry btw.
 

Kofu

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I take this thread seriously because it's a nice, consolidated place to talk about all the characters so I don't have to read through all the character boards. A lot of the discussion there is either stupid or reeks of bias anyway.
 
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A2ZOMG

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I'm shocked you guys are still taking this thread seriously.

Sakurai is going to nerf Diddy straight to hell. Knowing the perfectionist this man is and his desire to make players of all characters feel like they have a shot, diddy is an affront to everything he stands for.

Just relax dudes. Let's see where the dust settles after two years.

Diddy is braindead. So what? This game is NOT hard to play.

Sorry if I crushed anyone's dreams.

I'm not sorry btw.
I believe we should take this thread seriously so we can come up with things to tell Sakurai on twitter.

Also my favorite character Mario is still realistically bottom 5 even after DI changes, and I would hate to believe that the reason he didn't get other buffs is because some competitive players obviously are very bad at the matchup in the first few months of this game's competitive lifespan.

I mean, Mario as a character needs better frame data and probably some damage buffs. His risk/reward is really blatantly bad for seemingly no reason outside of the misguided perception that Mario somehow has reliable combos.

Doc probably has outpaced Mario after the recent patch at any rate, given his combos have better damage potential than Mario's. Then with customs Doc's recovery and edgeguarding gets really gross, while Mario really only just manages to suck less with customs.
 

NairWizard

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I'm shocked you guys are still taking this thread seriously.

Sakurai is going to nerf Diddy straight to hell. Knowing the perfectionist this man is and his desire to make players of all characters feel like they have a shot, diddy is an affront to everything he stands for.

Just relax dudes. Let's see where the dust settles after two years.

Diddy is braindead. So what? This game is NOT hard to play.

Sorry if I crushed anyone's dreams.

I'm not sorry btw.
I take this thread seriously as a meeting ground for different perspectives and experiences. Reasonably thought out ideas and posts to be found here.
 

deepseadiva

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There needs to be another thread called "For Glory Character Impressions" so 80% of you could talk there.
 

Emblem Lord

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What I mean by serious is pretty much constantly talking about Diddy or top tiers in general.

He's going down guys.

Stop ****ing talk about him.

My heart dies a little everytime one of the really intelligent people I admire in this community brings him up or talks about his risk vs reward.

And now you guys are talking about his incarnation from Brawl? Really?

Guys...what the **** are you doing?
 

irokex13

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What I mean by serious is pretty much constantly talking about Diddy or top tiers in general.

He's going down guys.

Stop ****ing talk about him.

My heart dies a little everytime one of the really intelligent people I admire in this community brings him up or talks about his risk vs reward.

And now you guys are talking about his incarnation from Brawl? Really?

Guys...what the **** are you doing?
Sorry, but it's comments like these that make me worry about the future of smash 4. I was initially skeptical about the addition of balance patches in smash bros, as it usually takes the meta years to develop before we truly find out characters true potential. It's not really healthy for the community to call for nerfs for a character just because they are dominant during the early tournament scene. All that will lead to is the continuous call for nerfs for whoever is the best character at the time.

Sure, Diddy Kong is a problem at the moment. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore him because of his potential of getting nerfed. Discussion about Diddy is healthy because it'll lead to strategies against him and potential counters to his gameplay. That way, even if he does get nerfed, it'll only be his most overbearing aspects that get toned down instead of him getting gutted. The same goes for all the characters who are dominating at the moment.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Until said nerf happens, Diddy current risk vs reward is still relevant to the current competitive metagame.

This is the competitive impression discussion area. We have no clue when the next patch will come out. Technically, we don't even truly know that another balance patch is coming out. Could end up being them just fixing up glitches and then walking away. They obviously know that somebody has to be the best character in the game, they could look at the situation and decide that Diddy is perfectly fine.

So until we either get confirmation that Diddy will be nerfed in a future patch, or a patch suddenly lands and nerfs Diddy, Diddy's current risk vs reward is 100% relevant. Future speculation that he may be nerfed or the ways he may be nerfed are irrelevant. What do you want people to do, not analyze their own character's match up with Diddy because hey, he might get nerfed in 6 months! You expect the Backroom to never put out a tier list because hey a patch could come out 2 months after they do?

How Diddy is currently is in the competitive scene worth talking about, as that is the present. This is the topic to do it in. Go talk about how he may or may not be nerfed and to what degrees somewhere else.
 
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The Real Gamer

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I knew people would start complaining about Diddy the second we got the full patch notes.

This is what sucks about balance patches. People will always complain about the next most broken thing.

Once Diddy gets nerfed people will start crying about Yoshi or something. It's a never ending cycle that I want no part of.
 

GalaxyWaffles

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Really enjoying Villager.. One thing I want to know is what is the safest out of shield option for villager? From my experience Nair seems to work fine..
 

Emblem Lord

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I don't call for nerfs. But the psycopath working on this game is well.....a psychopath.

I mean Diddy is not even interesting.

Do you guys enjoy talking about him THAT much?

If you want to talk about a top tier talk about Shulk or some ****. At least he's cool.
 

deepseadiva

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What I mean by serious is pretty much constantly talking about Diddy or top tiers in general.

He's going down guys.

Stop ****ing talk about him.

My heart dies a little everytime one of the really intelligent people I admire in this community brings him up or talks about his risk vs reward.

And now you guys are talking about his incarnation from Brawl? Really?

Guys...what the **** are you doing?
Do we have an exact date on when the next balance path is happening? Have we heard from the development team what those changes will be? As assured as you are about a future hypothetical game... that should not detract from conversation about the current game we have now. I don't understand what kind of worthwhile insights there can really be about some future game that doesn't really exist yet.
 
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NairWizard

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Did something happen to this thread? My post history here has vanished, as has every other user's that I've checked.
 

A2ZOMG

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Emblem Lord has a point. We already know Diddy is the strongest character right now, and we should be focusing on other things because we already broke down why he's overpowered, and probably what matchups he has to be worried about.

Anyhow for good characters we need more information about, anyone know about Villager? He has great zoning and edgeguarding, and only seems to be hindered by a tether grab and slightly below average options in close range.
 

HeroMystic

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Emblem Lord has a point. We already know Diddy is the strongest character right now, and we should be focusing on other things because we already broke down why he's overpowered, and probably what matchups he has to be worried about.
He does have a point (though it is hidden in his cynical viewpoint), but this has been the trend of this thread. First it was Shiek and Greninja, then Rosalina, then Sonic, now Diddy.

The problem is right now no one really knows how any character works unless they're maining them. I mean, I bet you and I could talk about Mario for a week, but I don't know **** about Villager.

So it's only natural that this thread talks about the top tiers because they're the ones getting the most exposure.
 

NairWizard

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Emblem Lord has a point. We already know Diddy is the strongest character right now
Disagree with this. I'd say that Pikachu is a better character than Diddy right now, looking at matchups. He has a little more trouble with Link and co. this time around as they're better (and less trouble with MK and Marth, on the flipside, as they're worse), but overall, there just aren't any bad matchups for Pikachu in smash 4. Removing Olimar (basically) and Ice Climbers, nerfing Wario's aerial mobility, and taking away Diddy's second banana gave Pikachu all the MU chart space to himself.

What matchups does he lose? I covered Diddy. Rosalina? Shaya covered that many posts ago, and that was before the nerf to Rosalina. Yoshi is probably even once you learn to edgeguard him (seriously, all of Yoshi's matchups are even, this is the conclusion I come to whenever I think about this character). Sheik? That's probably even (Pikachu has more KO options), Mr. R was just outplaying ESAM at the invitational. Sonic? Nope, Pikachu is one of the few characters who can actually punish Sonic consistently for using spindash (Quick Attack). Ness? Wins on stage, gets edgeguarded, 50:50. Robin? Needs a grab, gets edgeguarded, loses (I actually often get spiked by Robin's Elwind while trying to edgeguard her, and still manage to recover, which is amusing). Zero Suit Samus? I think the ZSS boards were complaining about how terrible this MU is for them; the size difference alone is a huge factor. Peach, Game and Watch, Wario... I can't really think of a good character that Pikachu outright loses to.

The landscape changes when customs are turned on because Palutena and Shulk and others actually become top tier and wreck Pikachu pretty hard imo, but I've actually been actively looking for a character who theoretically beats Pikachu when customs are turned off. Ironically, the best candidate in my mind is...

Anyhow for good characters we need more information about, anyone know about Villager? He has great zoning and edgeguarding, and only seems to be hindered by a tether grab and slightly below average options in close range.
This dude.

Do you know how hard it is to edgeguard Villager as Pikachu?

It's impossible is how hard it is. Villager is one of the few characters who can actually try to gimp Pikachu because he basically gets back to the stage for free/a little damage (popping both balloons without hitting Villager is *really* hard--if you hit him he'll just recover). I think the matchup is still relatively even because Pikachu's grabs are serious business, and Villager has a hard time in CQC, but even outside of Pikachu, this guy is a monster.

He shuts down projectile characters really hard, outzones characters who don't have projectiles with trees and rockets, can't be edgeguarded easily at all, and edgeguards everyone else with what I believe is a frame-3 n-air (it's something absurd at least). And he only gets better with customs. I'm glad he doesn't have a good grab, because he'd be SSS tier if he did.
 

Nidtendofreak

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We could talk about how when you enter this topic and look at navigation chart at the top it goes "Home -> Forums -> Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U -> 3DS and Wii Competitive Discussion -> Super Smash Clans (3DS)" for w/e reason. This topic ain't in the Smash Clans area but it sure thinks it does. Click on "Competitive Discussion" and it throws you into the Smash Clans forum.

---

Villager's Counter Tree is stupid. Rockets are annoying but manageable. Recovery I have mixed feelings about as Ike, Tempest giggles at balloons generally speaking.
 

|RK|

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I don't call for nerfs. But the psycopath working on this game is well.....a psychopath.

I mean Diddy is not even interesting.

Do you guys enjoy talking about him THAT much?

If you want to talk about a top tier talk about Shulk or some ****. At least he's cool.
Chill the hell out. Start discussion on another character if you want to instead of ****ting up the thread and crying about Sakurai and balance patches. That thread is dead. Contribute to this one or whine elsewhere. Damn.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Customs make a lot of chars better as SolidSense stated.

Doc, who I think is pretty high in the low tiers already, gets SCARY with customs. He can switch between Megavitamins to camp some chars, fast capsules for others....his recovery gets pretty good which fixes one of his really big achilles heels (he's still easily gimped but at least his recovery is more reliable.) and his Recovery Down-B custom lets him go deep with edgeguards and he has arguably one of the best Bairs in the game for a character of his size and for how fast it is....

I think he gets more out of them than Mario honestly.
 

ChronoPenguin

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I don't call for nerfs. But the psycopath working on this game is well.....a psychopath.

I mean Diddy is not even interesting.

Do you guys enjoy talking about him THAT much?

If you want to talk about a top tier talk about Shulk or some ****. At least he's cool.
Shulk is probably an even greater nerf candidate then Diddy.

Emblem Lord has a point. We already know Diddy is the strongest character right now, and we should be focusing on other things because we already broke down why he's overpowered, and probably what matchups he has to be worried about.

Anyhow for good characters we need more information about, anyone know about Villager? He has great zoning and edgeguarding, and only seems to be hindered by a tether grab and slightly below average options in close range.
The **** is with his recovery. Like some ungimpable bull ****. You've got to have some kinda ******** wind box to gimp him and otherwise it's KO or nothing.
 

TTTTTsd

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I'm glad my character has a wind sheet custom, although cape pushes people back respectably in the air as well, problem is Doc's Sheet is a risky as hell gimp tool but I'll take what I can get.

I guess Doc's Bair works good against villager too because of its outright raw power....
 
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Ffamran

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So... Is Diddy the new Rosalina & Luma in terms of complaints? ... I can't wait for Falco complaints! ... *waits forever*
 

HeroMystic

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Customs make a lot of chars better as SolidSense stated.

Doc, who I think is pretty high in the low tiers already, gets SCARY with customs. He can switch between Megavitamins to camp some chars, fast capsules for others....his recovery gets pretty good which fixes one of his really big achilles heels (he's still easily gimped but at least his recovery is more reliable.) and his Recovery Down-B custom lets him go deep with edgeguards and he has arguably one of the best Bairs in the game for a character of his size and for how fast it is....

I think he gets more out of them than Mario honestly.
Overall, Doc is probably better than Mario due to how the game is structured around the neutral game and positional play. Plainly speaking, Doc has better neutrals while Mario has better spacing tools. The problem with Mario is he has to work too hard to get damage and then has to work even harder to score a KO. Grounded D-air > U-Smash/D-Smash is the best Mario has but the opponent has to be grounded.

While Doc legitimately gets edgeguarded to oblivion due to a bad recovery, he's still formidable on the stage and his KO power is pretty strong.
 

TTTTTsd

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Yeah honestly after playing this game more I think Doc may be better than Mario in the long term.....which is cool, honestly. I would've stuck with him either way since he feels pretty strong (not top tier or even high tier), but just solid overall.

I think customs make him a much scarier threat, still easy to gimp but LESS easy, and gives him projectiles for literally all possible situations.

I also think Doc's ways of racking up damage are fairly reliable and without vectoring they've only gotten better (especially D-Throw).
 
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Emblem Lord

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Chill the hell out. Start discussion on another character if you want to instead of ****ting up the thread and crying about Sakurai and balance patches. That thread is dead. Contribute to this one or whine elsewhere. Damn.
quoted this just to lol@you

lolololol

also, I don't think you know what whining is.

but if I did want to whine, since I HAVE contributed alot to not only this thread but to the community as a whole since 09' by what you seem to imply do I not have that right?

I'm honestly curious.

no actually that was lie, I'm really not. I'm just being pretentious at this point. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

On Topic: Sheik still better then Diddy imo.

Better neutral and her risk vs reward is still solid. And I don't think she loses to anyone.
 
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