Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Reflecting diddys projectiles is a waste. Falcons reflector is beneficial for its attack range.

What do you really get out of reflecting a peanut its not really significant

Which you repeated... I was more on the subject of using Falco's and Palutena's reflectors as interrupters and as reflectors since they have distance, they might be able to do better than the capes and stationary reflectors on Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost. Because of distance, they would be good options to interrupt Diddy's Monkey Flip.

 

[|RK|]

Well, I learned why Ganoncide didn't change, sort of. Tips section says that the point goes to the last person to hit the opponent before the grab. In standard tournament matches, that'll obviously always be Ganondorf.

 

[Radical Larry]

I will state this once; Diddy Kong is not that overpowered. He and Sonic have great attributes (except Sonic's is annoying and some are countered by other characters), but you have to remember that Diddy Kong is light, and his recovery is a charge type recovery that is a bad idea to use under a stage.

Sure, everyone says his U-air is overpowered, but people will adapt to it and find ways to counter it. His throws might be annoying and link into each other, but people can spot dodge or roll away from it. Monkey Flip may be good, but a spot dodge or rolling the opposite direction can counter that. F-Smash has great knockback power, but that's the main ground attack Diddy Kong players use; exploit it.

Diddy Kong, to me, is not very threatening or scary. There will be ways to develop strategies against Diddy, and characters will soft counter him to a lower position. The Links can fare well against Diddy Kong, and Ganondorf (in my experience) can stand his own.

 

[Shaya]

May I ask you @ Radical Larry about what your live tournament experience in Smash 4 or any other Smash games is like?
I constantly feel as if you live in a different world to the rest of us ;\
Spot dodge and roll away from it isn't great when Diddy has a wide range of frame traps in Banana + peanut to cover simple dodge options (including shield to be frank). Monkey Flip isn't spammed at all like it is on wifi, the kick is great to priority through certain things and the flip is otherwise a long range air grab; something you can use liberally to cover people's landings; it's not a hard read tool at all, it's a superb semi-reactive punish. Diddy Kong's aren't really needing to use forward smash as their main ground move either when he has godlike tilts and a fast dash to shield.

I would recommend you take the time to watch tournament videos and not always base things off your wifi experience, you're way off kilter.
Not to say your conclusion is wrong, but it's a safe conclusion to make either way, I just don't agree with how you drew that conclusion.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, I may not have much tournament experience (I'm not lying when I say I don't have a car or a friend to take me), and some of the people I've fought against were almost pretty bad, and I'm only decent. Some of my conclusions may be inaccurate, I agree, @ Shaya .

I could formulate better conclusions whenever I can get people to personally play against me in a serious tournament-style play Online "With Friends" (or when I get a car). I just make conclusions based on my experiences, nothing more nothing less.

I'm really great with Link; maybe not the best, but pretty good.

I am just saying that some characters are great, some aren't as amazing as they seem, just the whole situation, not saying who is better than who here.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Thats cool, and i do think that people look at tier lists to much without thinking for themselves. But at the same time, some characters tools are inherently better by design and imo there is only so much you can do to change that. Look at brawl MK to brawl Ganon for example. Even if you fleshed out every inch of ganons meta to the point where you Could win.... how consistent do you think you would be vs a player of mew2kings caliber?

Playing a worse character for the most part essentially means that you have to guess (and out read) your opponent more often than they have to read you assuming the games being played optimally. If you put in the hours, on your best day maybe you are capable of beating any player with any character. But I dont think playing low tier characters will bring consistent and long term results

....At least for me. Maybe someone out there is legitimately dedicated enough to just outskill me every time on some daigo mindgames, and if that's what you want to do then goodluck to you.

this is the third time one of my comments seem to have caught the attantion of an pro player. lol if only m2k responed to half the things i say about him lol.
look you are not quite wrong but u were also making these statements so early in smash 4 life span that i found it way more irritating than i should have. alas the damage is done.

 

[Shaya]

You can learn a lot from watching tournament play of all sorts, I would really recommend it.

Also <3 @Orion*

 

[Radical Larry]

You can learn a lot from watching tournament play of all sorts, I would really recommend it.

Also <3 @Orion*

I've watched one or two Tournaments for the 3DS version, and suffice to say that I'm indifferent about them; while I find them amusing, I want to wait a bit longer to see a more efficient result from players and characters alike.

Maybe the future is what will behold everything, you know?

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

I've watched one or two Tournaments for the 3DS version, and suffice to say that I'm indifferent about them; while I find them amusing, I want to wait a bit longer to see a more efficient result from players and characters alike.

Maybe the future is what will behold everything, you know?

No offense to you but this isn't the greatest argument I've ever seen...
How can you even talk about matchups and metagame if you deliberately diss the top of the current meta? Is your experience only based on some for glory and wifi games? Yeah lag helps some chars like link, great you're the best! I don't wanna sound too rude (though I know I might do, my english isn't good enough to show enough nuances) but I just wanna show you some flaws inherent to your logic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cant do this larry dude anymore. I caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan't

 

[Terotrous]

Well, I think it's pretty obvious what happened with Diddy. He was one of the best characters in 1.0.3. Every other top or high tier character got some nerfs, even if they were minor. Diddy basically got nothing, so he's now a little bit above them. I don't think he's like ridiculously bonkers broken, but he is probably #1 right now.

I think he really just needs to lose a bit of damage on some of his attacks and he'd be fine. They reduced the damage on Mario's strings to compensate for VI being taken out, how did Diddy escape untouched?


On the plus side, if you were maining a lower tier character, your matchup vs Diddy isn't any worse than it was before, in fact chances are it probably got a bit better due to buffs. It's mostly people playing high tier characters from 1.0.3 who are feeling the sting right now.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Give Up Air some lag at the end, maybe 2 or 3 frames at the beginning as well, and change D Throw to limit the follow ups and idk if Diddy is a big problem anymore.

The fact that changes as simple as these can have such a huge effect is unsettling.

 

[Terotrous]

The fact that changes as simple as these can have such a huge effect is unsettling.

Actually, I see it as an indication that the game's balance is generally pretty good. Even small changes have a pretty significant effect on viability because the cast is fairly close.

I do think it means that they likely shouldn't make another massive tweak like they did with the previous patch. The first one was fine, and probably necessary, but doing that too often will be disruptive to the metagame. I'd probably be fine with waiting until Mewtwo to get another couple fixes (tone Diddy down a bit, buff Swordfighter / Olimar / Zelda etc). I personally don't believe Diddy is strong enough to blow the game wide open before then.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Actually, I see it as an indication that the game's balance is generally pretty good. Even small changes have a pretty significant effect on viability because the cast is fairly close.

I do think it means that they likely shouldn't make another massive tweak like they did with the previous patch. The first one was fine, and probably necessary, but doing that too often will be disruptive to the metagame. I'd probably be fine with waiting until Mewtwo to get another couple fixes (tone Diddy down a bit, buff Swordfighter / Olimar / Zelda etc). I personally don't believe Diddy is strong enough to blow the game wide open before then.

Idk if that necessarily has to anything with the cast though. Diddy can do crazy stuff with Up Air and D throw against a large majority of the cast. If anything, it shows Diddy's janky aspects.

The only real problem with waiting for Mewtwo is Apex. I hope w don't see Diddy Domination (Diddynation :oooo) there.

 

[Terotrous]

I personally don't consider throw follow-ups to be jank. Characters like Palutena, Sheik, and Mario also have them, and they don't break those characters. The issue just seems to be that Diddy's throw follow-ups are a little strong, especially for a character who otherwise has very strong neutral with moves like monkey flip and banana.

This is why my recommendation is just "lose damage". Shiek is a character who puts you in long string and hits you a million times but it only does like 20-25% damage. Diddy should be in that category too.

Part of the problem may be that Diddy often has multiple follow-up options after his Dthrow, whereas other characters only tend to have one, thus allowing Diddy's moves to be fresher and thus deal more damage and knockback. That might need to be looked at.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Even if we do see Diddy take a few of the top spots...who cares?

Honestly, until I see Diddy really break the game in half by existing ala Metaknight, he's just a strong character. I think a lot of people are overreacting.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Even if we do see Diddy take a few of the top spots...who cares?

Honestly, until I see Diddy really break the game in half by existing ala Metaknight, he's just a strong character. I think a lot of people are overreacting.

Well duh, it's a fighting game and it just had a recent patch. Every time someone wins a tournament we must call for that character to be banned until we can finally have our Olimar vs Swordfighter grand finals.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I personally don't consider throw follow-ups to be jank. Characters like Palutena, Sheik, and Mario also have them, and don't break those characters. The issue just seems to be that Diddy's throw follow-ups are a little strong, especially for a character who otherwise has very strong neutral with moves like monkey flip and banana.

This is why my recommendation is just "lose damage". Shiek is a character who puts you in long string and hits you a million times but it only does like 20-25% damage. Diddy should be in that category too.

Part of the problem may be that Diddy often has multiple follow-up options after his Dthrow, whereas other characters only tend to have one, thus allowing Diddy's moves to be fresher and thus deal more damage and knockback. That might need to be looked at.

Yeah that's what I was saying. Diddys follow-ups are jank. Change up those from D Throw, maybe touch Up Air some and you still have an incredibly strong character.

Even if we do see Diddy take a few of the top spots...who cares?

Honestly, until I see Diddy really break the game in half by existing ala Metaknight, he's just a strong character. I think a lot of people are overreacting.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah that was a bit of hyperbole on my part.

Also by Apex a LOT of MU knowledge will be discovered.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Tbh I think olimars really underrated

 

[ChampKing]

What happened to Rosalina? Longer Luma respawn times is one thing but everything else people were whining about is still there still isn't it. What about ZSS and Greninja? Has Diddy winning a few tournaments in the early stages of the game made the whole game change to counter Diddy?

 

[Jabejazz]

Give Up Air some lag at the end, maybe 2 or 3 frames at the beginning as well, and change D Throw to limit the follow ups and idk if Diddy is a big problem anymore.

The fact that changes as simple as these can have such a huge effect is unsettling.

A single minor change on a single entity indirectly affects all the others.

If all 1.0.4 did was nerfing Diddy's peanut damage by 1%, it would effectively affect 50(EDIT : 51) matchups, albeit on a very marginal scale.

Personally, I have no idea how to beat Diddy effectively as TripleD, even moreso that we got nerfs instead of buffs on an already struggling character, but he's clearly not broken by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[suarsuar]

Cant do this larry dude anymore. I caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan't

Lmfaoooooo

A perfect example where lurk moar post less would be best.

Listen @ Radical Larry , really take this to heart when I say you really got to do your research.

This thread is very different from the rest in that it receives high volumes of traffic and a very good insight to post ratio. Meaning, people here talk a lot and some are very insightful in what they say.

People are posting fresh out of tournaments or from watching tournament videos.

For you to dismiss videos is nothing short of irresponsible.

I'm sorry if you don't have a car or good friends to vs. but these discussion are perpetuated from people that are getting hands-on experience at tournaments they pay money to participate in so it is not to be taken lightly.

If you cannot post while adhering to those basic standards then I suggest you read.

Nothing is better than that at this point in the game if you're on the outside looking in.

And this goes to anyone about any subject matter they're not familiar with - if you don't know, you can't say.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I would be all for making diddy's up air not be a direct follow up from down throw and just leave it as a kill move with a little more start up and a little bit more recovery nothing huge. He can keep all his other follow ups.

(but until then i'll just go to my friends an dissect the match up.)

 

[HeroMystic]

What happened to Rosalina? Longer Luma respawn times is one thing but everything else people were whining about is still there still isn't it. What about ZSS and Greninja? Has Diddy winning a few tournaments in the early stages of the game made the whole game change to counter Diddy?

It's just following a trend.

#Smashboards.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's just following a trend.

#Smashboards.

#paranoia

Smooth Criminal

 

[Deleted member]

Well duh, it's a fighting game and it just had a recent patch. Every time someone wins a tournament we must call for that character to be banned until we can finally have our Olimar vs Swordfighter grand finals.

I would pay to see this.

 

[san.]

Most characters have good combos from their throws, so I don't know why Diddy needs to lose his. I think his uair should be balanced close to Pika's frame and damage-wise. Right now, it's faster and deals much more damage than Pikachu's, who already has one of the best uairs around. Less damage, but still great at combos. Diddy already has a great fair for aerial kills.

 

[Terotrous]

I would pay to see this.

I can summarize it for you. Olimar sits back and throws Pikmin while Swordfighter tries to get in with Nair. At some point Olimar tries to do an upsmash, but it just doesn't come out because his pikmin are being stupid. Swordfighter punishes with Jab because his other moves are too slow. Olimar recovers and goes back to throwing pikmin.

8 minutes later Olimar wins by timeout with a damage lead of 30%. On to round 2!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Nah, sword fighter would straight win.
SF capes or power thrusts. Olimar smashes it gets reflected. Rip Olimar.

 

[Terotrous]

Nah, sword fighter would straight win.
SF capes or power thrusts. Olimar smashes it gets reflected. Rip Olimar.

Then we can have an even more entertaining battle of Ftilt vs Nair, lol.

Long story short I also suspect Swordfighter would win (if he gets Olimar offstage he actually does have a decent opportunity to chase his landing), but the viewers are the real losers.

 

[Deleted member]

I can summarize it for you. Olimar sits back and throws Pikmin while Swordfighter tries to get in with Nair. At some point Olimar tries to do an upsmash, but it just doesn't come out because his pikmin are being stupid. Swordfighter punishes with Jab because his other moves are too slow. Olimar recovers and goes back to throwing pikmin.

8 minutes later Olimar wins by timeout with a damage lead of 30%. On to round 2!

Oh boy, what happens in round two? I'm on the edge of my seat!

 

[Terotrous]

Oh boy, what happens in round two? I'm on the edge of my seat!

Swordfighter switches to reflector and sits still the entire match reflecting pikmin back at olimar. Eventually he just stops throwing them. They sit there watching each other for several minutes because no one wants to commit to something punishable.

Finally someone realizes that banning characters just because they do well in tournaments is stupid.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm just glad my Doc analysis on Diddy was pretty on point or at least close to what is optimal. I'm glad my studying from this thread + tournaments paid off.

For the record I think if D-Throw was still a good combo throw but only at lower %s I think it would be fine. Launch at more of an angle, let people DI out at later percents, you know. Having a good throw combo game is fine (lots of chars have it, or at least competent throw followup options), so I wouldn't wanna strip that away from Deedee.

Honestly though, even as is, he's tough to handle but I think there has historically been more dominant characters in the history of Smash so at least right now the counter-play is a lot better than "Pray your opponent is a good deal worse or doesn't know the MU"

My main concern is once Diddy is handled by players/Nintendo themselves, are people just gonna move on to the next top tier to talk about getting nerfs? Not accusing or saying it's gonna happen, but the thought crossed my mind, is someone gonna take Diddy's place?

 

[warriorman222]

What nerfs did Yoshi get? I didn't even notice anything, and if anything since the patch i've been doing better with Yoshi.

 

[Jabejazz]

Oh boy, what happens in round two? I'm on the edge of my seat!

-Round 2
-Olimar wins
-Swordfighter decides to counter pick Olimar by picking Olimar himself
-Game ends on a draw because they just spam side B from their respective edge of the stage
-Hype is at a universal low
-Internet is filled about ****posts claiming Olimar is the most boring chracter to watch
-New rule for competitive Smash bans Olimar from play
-Games are from then on 1v1 Mii Swordfighter
-Competitive scene dies a few weeks later, it is reported that Sakurai secretly commits Subaru in his office.
-Pichu confirmed for Smash 5

 

[Sinister Slush]

What nerfs did Yoshi get? I didn't even notice anything, and if anything since the patch i've been doing better with Yoshi.

http://smashboards.com/threads/3ds-community-patch-notes-v1-0-4-engine-changes-to-di.378404/
Otherwise only other thing somebody brought up is Dair possibly doing 40% now.

 

[Kisatamura]

Just out of curiosity, can Diddy throw another banana if Villager pockets it?

 

[Terotrous]

What nerfs did Yoshi get? I didn't even notice anything, and if anything since the patch i've been doing better with Yoshi.

Dash attack is less safe. Neutral B is a little slower and Dair is slightly more unsafe. In general, not hugely changed though you can't be as braindead with Dash Attack anymore. It's possible he may have gotten better relative to other good characters (who generally received larger nerfs), though he definitely lost ground to Diddy and possibly also Brawler (does anyone know if Brawler got any changes?)

 

[Sinister Slush]

So did you switch Little mac from being a hard counter for Yoshi to Mii Brawler now?

 

[warriorman222]

Dash attack is less safe. Neutral B is a little slower and Dair is slightly more unsafe. In general, not hugely changed though you can't be as braindead with Dash Attack anymore. It's possible he may have gotten better relative to other good characters (who generally received larger nerfs), though he definitely lost ground to Diddy and possibly also Brawler (does anyone know if Brawler got any changes?)

My brain cells are still dying from Dash Attack. i did realize Egg Lay and Flutter Kick don't work anymore, but i only used Egg Lay against idiots couldn't mash, and Flutter Kick against the same kind.