Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Then the best course of action isn't to just wait around and let it happen then, is it? I know CT Zero (despite wanting to ban Diddy lol) is already going through the motion of attempting to find strats, what should stop anyone else from trying to?

The last thing I advise anyone to do is lie down and let it happen. But hey, could let it stagnate!

Players are training for Apex. They're about to go on their winter college/school breaks and are planning on sitting down for 12 hours a day for the greater portion of the next 2 months for it. Most players are thrown a conundrum of who to invest time in right now, logically the choice this early on is to play the character most easy to learn and apply winning strategies with.

Also I'm purely talking about risk/reward here. Character options are pretty balanced, I think we nearly all agree. But what is the meta focusing on and what mechanics are the best characters abusing?

It will hurt the game outwards competitive appearance significantly if the first major tournament for the game, some 2 months after release is already saturated with a very small list of characters.

 

[Luco]

Does the Smash competitive scene always make such sweeping judgments about the game's meta while it is in infancy? Seems like a bunch of overreacting to me.

We have a complicated past. *blushes*

 

[TTTTTsd]

We're gonna come back to this thread 3 years from now and have a good laugh over this, I'm sure.

I'm not picking up no banana throwing red-capped monkey though. I'll learn and do everything in my power to stomp him should he get in my way. I'm not a man of conceding to mere....statistics.

For the record I'm not going to dictate what Apex 2015 will be, but like any young game it's probably going to have it's difficulties. I'm concerned more about the extra long term (2-3 years) than I am about Apex. Either the game gets patched before then (possible) or people find counter-play (also possible). Or Diddy and a small pool of characters takes it (also possible).

All three of these are possible but quite frankly, the game, no matter how Apex goes, is still incredibly young.

Could it hurt the game's outward appearance? Possibly. Is the damage irreparable? Probably not. I'm going to focus on going forward and combating stagnancy with strats in the long term. Maybe other people will do the same, but I am going to be optimistic about this as opposed to letting myself sink.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

FoxDiddy Only
No items
Smashville.

Except I don't think Diddy is as objectively potent as melee Fox.
There's been a lot of monkey-branching and bandwagoning between characters.

 

[Shaya]

I genuinely don't think the game will look the same in 6 months, come next summer season I think the meta will settle a lot better as people will have time to develop more than just a select few characters.
Characters with reliable ways of avoiding grabs or other great strengths will still come out on top as 'uniquely' high tier+. We know a few, but we don't know enough.

I'm purely talking about the early stages of this meta and what we're likely about to get hit by. I hope I'm wrong, I definitely could see people figuring out the Diddy match up well enough to not have it be overly saturated at apex (like I don't see top level players of other characters getting knocked out by "unknown" diddys).

 

[TTTTTsd]

We're getting hit with stagnancy in early meta. It's not really uncommon or specific to this game, this is just how it ends up with certain games in the FGC, it's inevitable and as such I can't say I'm surprised.

I think what's really important is moving forward. Oh, and patching, patching seems like a nice thing to help out a little too.

For the record I think in the long term meta a lot of the cast will be viable (this sounds cheesy as **** but if they patch/balance the risk and reward and people learn matchups that's how I feel it will end up since options are fairly balanced), and will be a lot more explored. Right now we have to settle with either Diddyland at Apex or not, but I think we shouldn't stop investing in our characters.

I think the mentality of "play only these characters" is not a good one to even enforce regardless of how many people are doing it. I don't want to halt my progress now.

These are just my thoughts though, I'm rather traditional in my belief and used to character stagnancy being a thing in fighting games.

 

[Asdioh]

shields and grabs in Rage

When you put it that way, I see it. That probably plays a big part in why Ness has been so successful, huh?
So basically it's like a miniature version Brawl Ice Climbers all over again, except you can't separate Ness (or whoever) from his grab. Kinda.

 

[Luco]

FoxDiddy Only
No items Bananas
Smashville.

Fixed.

Sorry, I don't mean to turn this in to something trivial, I get that having like 2 or 3 SEEMINGLY viable characters (as in, in reality there might be way more) hurts the outward appearance of the game.

Ideally i'd like someone outside of these characters to take the throne at Apex. I'm not sure what would bring the most character diversity to be totally honest outside of people winning tournaments with other characters. :/

(And I hate being part of the problem for using a character i've loved using for over a decade. In case you couldn't tell, I don't play this game for money guys )

EDIT: I'm inclined to agree that the meta won't look the same in 6 months. Maybe we'll have to put up with Apex if that's the case. Gosh darn it, you top players had better get out there and do some work with your favourite characters!

 

[TTTTTsd]

You're not a part of the problem at all. The "problem" just centralizes around early meta. It happens, it's not new to this game, people are gonna find counters to everything eventually, it's just this game is going to Apex at a really young age (poor release timing in hindsight, what, we got not even a year's worth of practice) so lord knows what's going to happen.

But I am not putting down Dr. Mario, a character I am genuinely passionate about, because some people are *giggle* MONKEYING AROUND.

What do I know? Apex might be bad, might be good. People might buckle down and start bopping Diddy, people might not. I think rather than stew I'm going to figure out options myself with the limited resources I have.

If a bandwagon besides Diddy comes up in the next 2 months, you can imagine it will be THAT character instead of a bunch of Diddies we'd be seeing. It's just the game being young, and unfortunately that's gonna transfer to Apex.

 

[Shaya]

ness is definitely the least troublesome culprit. And I doubt he has universally positive/even at worse match ups either.
If rage didn't scale with throws, Ness would not be remotely abusive. I think Sonic and Diddy would still likely be too good without any other changes.

I'm still going to main Marth, I may put a lot more time into Robin (who I've been developing as of late) due to just having very solid reliable kill moves/set ups at low-ish percent (dthrow uair at 90% <3), but Robin's already quite popular. Otherwise more effort into Falco, **** your kill throws i'ma just up tilt bair you for the stock at 80%.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If it really is those two characters that are the main issue then I can't see players just letting them dominate.

Either Ninty will do something or WE will have to do something. Maybe not in time for Apex but I hate idling about and getting slept on, especially cause of some ****** monkey.

You know what though? Crazier things have happened in other games, don't lose hope for Apex. Please don't. This game (and series as a whole) is really hard to predict (let me tell you, a replay of Olimar beating Rosalina being played by Dabuz was not something I expected to see in my life). Even if it was just one match, it's insane.

 

[Luco]

ness is definitely the least troublesome culprit. And I doubt he has universally positive/even at worse match ups either.
If rage didn't scale with throws, Ness would not be remotely abusive. I think Sonic and Diddy would still likely be too good without any other changes.

I'm still going to main Marth, I may put a lot more time into Robin (who I've been developing as of late) due to just having very solid reliable kill moves/set ups at low-ish percent (dthrow uair at 90% <3), but Robin's already quite popular. Otherwise more effort into Falco, **** your kill throws i'ma just up tilt bair you for the stock at 80%.

Yeah I never liked this MU and I never wiiilllllllllll.... *PKT sucked into void reflector*

And Apex does tend to bring surprising results. Brawl MK has won Apex like... once? THAT, to me, is surprising.

 

[Shaya]

If Japan shows up at apex, hopefully some yoshi/lucario/sheik will even out saturation. Not sure on their status yet.

 

[NairWizard]

If Japan shows up at apex, hopefully some yoshi/lucario/sheik will even out saturation. Not sure on their status yet.

Let me get this straight. You actually want people to play Lucario?

You've lost your mind, sir.

 

[Asdioh]

All this talk of Diddys (and Sonics?) overrunning Apex is truly scary. I hated those characters since Brawl.
On the plus side, no Olimars :3

Seriously though, I don't see Diddy being THAT much better than all the rest of the characters we've already seen do well in tournaments. I don't even know when people decided he was the best? Was it when Sheik/Greninja/I think Rosalina were nerfed? These characters and more still have crazy potential, I don't think it's as bad as you're saying, even with Rage favoring throw kills.

p.s. Kirby has two kill throws that benefit from rage :D

 

[Shaya]

Let me get this straight. You actually want people to play Lucario?

You've lost your mind, sir.

Better than diddy dittos.
That recovery nerf was really big tbh. Fast characters can definitely punish it, getting him off stage/in a juggle trap situation before rage kicks in is pretty good.
I'm pretty sure if you trump a lucario off the edge he -has to- up-b, if he goes for the ledge he won't have invincibility on the sweetspot, giving everyone a free hit, and if they go on stage just reactively chasing him has positive results.

I feel Lucario has issues with heavy hitters as well. I will very much enjoy seeing a Lucario player storm through an apex bracket of Sonic and Diddys; in the former case Espy is pretty convinced it's still a hard counter, and I haven't seen enough of the latter match up to guess it although i've seen a recent set of lucario 2-0ing apparently japan's best diddy (it was 1.03 though).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Nintendo doesn't have to do anything. Follow-batty players everywhere.
3 weeks ago.
It was
Rosaluma, Diddy, Sheik, Fox constantly being discussed alongside
Robin, ZSS, Yoshi, Greninja.Lucario Sonic,Peach and Pikachu being talked about sprinkle a little Villager in there.

How did that all those percieved options dissolve to Diddy & Sheik. It wouldn't even make sense.
Greninja nerfed, fine.
Sheik nerfed, she's still played. Fox is still played. Yoshi's still decent but I understand if the hype has finally come down.


Also
Speed shulk broke. No one *that* fast has *that* much range. Range and speed go hand in hand. In the time it takes Fox to move from the same spot as Speed Shulk to hit you. One of the fastest characters in the game, some of the best range in the game, fastest walk in the game. One of if not the strongest counter in the game. inb4 its realized.All in one form wtf.

Edit: Nair auto cancels (obv). B-air can be canceled from a full hop with a nair. All of his aerials can be Monado-art cancelled as well.
No one really camps Speed or Jump shulk. Anyone who can't camp, can't kill Shield Shulk without strong edgeguarding to stop the Jump recover, before he ends abusing Rage, which also works handedly with Smash, at which point Ftilt, b-throw and u-tilt take over

 

[NairWizard]

Also
Speed shulk broke. No one *that* fast has *that* much range. Range and speed go hand in hand. In the time it takes Fox to move from the same spot as Speed Shulk to hit you, Speed shulks hit you because he doesn't need to cover the distance given his range will do it for him. In 1.01-1.03 I was on the fence. I think shulk is fantastic however now and feel confident in that. Inb4 it's realized.

If only his aerials autocanceled

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you want an example of predicted saturation being a non-issue I'm going to cite the hell out of Super Street Fighter 4 AE. Yun was broken as hell in that and people expected him to dominate and while he DID place at EVO, the character variety was, from what I can tell, still solid if memory serves.

Why? Cause the community got together and figured him out. He was still too good and silly, don't get me wrong, but people found out a decent way to combat that and let the professionals go from there. Maybe that can be attested by a larger community overall but frankly I'm tired of defeatist attitudes in regards to this, it's really disappointing.

I'm sure that, in 2 months time, SOMETHING, to what degree I am uncertain, but SOMETHING will happen.

 

[Shaya]

Conversely if you're planning on going hard with your favourite character at apex, you probably should be a god at the diddy match up (so if you're focusing 100% of your training time to the diddy match up, chances are you'll be better at the match up then the diddy who likely won't specialise in many). And you're probably right, there may be a gazillion players on Diddy Kong, but there's going to be multiple waves of players on other characters which are going to be able to take out 90% of them.

Defeating the rage mechanic is probably the least explored/potentially most fruitful angle to go by.
However, I will still maintain that the risk/reward skew on the best characters is problematic; you'll be working harder than they are to get kills, rack up damage, etc etc and early on (just like we moan about rolls/etc) those things will take longer than 2 months for players on both sides to be comfortable with.

I shoot myself in the foot with the sensationalist reaction to sky's invitational, ktar, xanadu and various other things. But at the same time how else do you desensitize yourself from it? For me as a competitive player, the mental weight of that disparity of risk/reward is something I need to overcome myself (as does anyone else who wants to stand a chance). I think it's the most important thing to focus on right now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yup, I can't make it to Apex but general FGC advice: KNOW THE TOP TIER MUs! The low tier ones are definitely important but always know how to take on the most popular character choices at any given time, especially if they're relatively linear in their best options (Diddy WANTS that Throw).

Make me proud, boys.

I shoot myself in the foot with the sensationalist reaction to both sky's invitational, ktar, xanadu and various other things. But at the same time how else do you desensitize yourself from it? For me as a competitive player, the mental weight of that disparity of risk/reward is something I need to overcome myself (as does anyone else who wants to stand a chance).

It's something that is, inherently very difficult to get around. I say always keep a cool head and if you see that a character like that is being dominant or overused, you get a bunch of other players together and you lab the **** out of that character. Learn what he has to do to win, learn what he can do to win, learn HOW he wins, and exploit that.

If our scene was even 3x the size it is right now I imagine people would've labbed Diddy in and out by now, but since it's not, action and early action is all the more important.

 

[BSP]

If Japan shows up at apex, hopefully some yoshi/lucario/sheik will even out saturation. Not sure on their status yet.

Really though, I don't think there's a single big name in the U.S. that uses this guy. I hope Abadango comes and puts in work.

 

[Nabbitnator]

thats a cop out though we cant just have flip flop rules like that. its in or its out.
thats like saying since ness has a glitch in wuhu island that insta kills. we dont have it just banned for when ness is playing we ban it in general.

Having equipment like that is also scary. for someone like diddy it would allow him to have even more bs than usual.

 

[Shaya]

@RichBrown :
A couple other people said it in an earlier status, but it also helped me to remind myself that I'm losing friendly sessions to Ramin, Zero, and M2K, 3 of the best players in the world. But I prefer to substitute the words "best/better" with "familiar." They've simply played more and learned what to look for, and ultimately see without "looking."

Combine that with how easy it is for diddy to score a KO, and you got a tough obstacle to overcome.

As far as purely in game technicalities go, I'm treating diddy like ICs. Don't get grabbed, or you die. Don't let them roll into you, wait on them (the nothing option is so strong). Then space around fair, get those OoS punishes solid.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the issue with diddy isn't that he's OP, but that he's easy. This will be the first matchup that we will collectively dissect.
~~~

^ Basically my position, I'm not wanting to give up, I just am currently sizing up the mountain we need to get over. It looks pretty daunting. And right now Sonic is being underrated at tippity top level due to M2K dropping him for Diddy; hopefully no one decides to play him :D

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes the real issue with Diddy lies not in his inherent design but rather....why go the hard route and play anyone else?

I get the feeling that he'll be patched at some point down the line but FOR NOW, I think it's about time for our first unified Matchup discussion > : )

 

[Jabejazz]

It's UMvC3 Wesker all over again.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly that's a REALLY good comparison that I never thought of....

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Real talk tho...

Diddy's Up Air is crazy. Combo potential is high, even into itself. Sometimes it looks like Sheik Fair... However, the thing also kills super early, combos from D Throw at Kill Percents (and lower percents). I think it comes out at Frame 2? if not then it can't be more than frame 4. Also low landing lag, end lag... Crazy jank move... Also I heard something about it being able to hit grounded opponents out of SH like Falcon's Up Air but idk too much about that.

D Throw, Side B, and Up Air are just like all so good... I remember a lot of top players at Sky's invitational talking about how Diddy only needs like these 3 moves to do well (and a few others are also amazing like Fair)... Up Air is a jank move. Like, all it needs to be tame is some end lag and start lag, maybe some lower KBG.

You guys got any ideas on how to counter Up Air other than avoiding the grab?

 

[LiteralGrill]

The obvious solution is for us to start hyping up another character and saying they are astronomical so people will use them.



Have you this this guy!?!?!?!?! You thought Diddy was good, this insanely broken piece of crap needs to be banned instantly. Am I right guys!?!?!

I'm switching to be a Kirby main right away.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Zero's twitter has DI tips on how to get away from it (or at least getting double UpAir'd at low % and avoiding the UpAir PERIOD at High %).

It's a useful bank of info for a start.

 

[Asdioh]

It's UMvC3 Wesker all over again.

I didn't play that, what happened exactly?

Have you this this guy!?!?!?!?! You thought Diddy was good, this insanely broken piece of crap needs to be banned instantly. Am I right guys!?!?!

http://puu.sh/cPibW/755ecd78f4.webm

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wesker was considered like, one of the best chars EVER becuase he was pretty simple and had good synergy with a lot of what was optimal.

Then people learned to counter him and he fell out of top usage. Still a GOOD char by all means but as the skill window increased other characters got more popular than him (Dante, for instance)

 

[Jabejazz]

I didn't play that, what happened exactly?

Super easy to play character. Required next to no execution or thought, for that matter, and yielded extremely high rewards.

http://puu.sh/cPibW/755ecd78f4.webm

http://puu.sh/cPibW/755ecd78f4.webm

Hard counter right there.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I didn't play that, what happened exactly?

http://puu.sh/cPibW/755ecd78f4.webm

You're one of those jerk Kirby users ruining the meta! Why do you do this? Quit playing such an OP character you jerk >=(

 

[Jabejazz]

You're one of those jerk Kirby users ruining the meta! Why do you do this? Quit playing such an OP character you jerk >=(

You're right, Kirby is too OP, I'll switch back to Diddy, at least this character takes skill.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Super easy to play character. Required next to no execution or thought, for that matter, and yielded extremely high rewards.

It's funny, Diddy wears shades in his actual game (DKC2).

Coincidence? Obviously not :3

 

[Asdioh]

TTTTTsd (what kind of name is that, did you roll your hands on a keyboard like I did for mine?) what exactly did he say about Diddy Kong? All I could find was this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...o_here_here_to_apologize_for_the_diddy_drama/

 

[TTTTTsd]

TTTTTsd (what kind of name is that, did you roll your hands on a keyboard like I did for mine?) what exactly did he say about Diddy Kong? All I could find was this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...o_here_here_to_apologize_for_the_diddy_drama/

My name was a result of falling asleep on a keyboard and not wanting to have a generic username. I can not be mistaken for absolutely ANYONE.

ALSOOOO Zero proposed a ban for diddy kong on his twitter and the community went bonkers. Maybe he removed the tweet and it's a done situation but it definitely happened. Needless to say, it was pretty cray.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah I know that, but where's the discussion about how to DI Diddy Kong's stuff? Or you could just tell me

 

[TTTTTsd]

OHHH, Diddy DI? Hold up...

I think it's the latter half of his tweets on Nov 26 on his twitter. He talks about the matchup and the Diddy mentality

...in which @ Shaya was pretty much right about in that it is literally just don't get grabbed, which is easier vs. Diddy compared to ICs because he's not two characters. He also discusses DI in case you DO get grabbed.