Character Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

You..dont know what footsies entails..do you?

That's an unnecessarily condescending assumption, but yes, catching the other players' kick with your own, whether it's standing or crouching. More loosely it could mean catching any spacing/baiting/counter attempt move of the other player with any of your moves, but that's not what footsies originally meant. This isn't a huge thing in Smash because of reasons I mentioned in my earlier post.

 

[LoLDuco]

In my experience it seems that Zero Suit is really strong, she moves around the map so fast you can barely keep up. Samus is also got a mean projectile game where she can pretty much spam projectiles and bait you into things you don't want to do.

At least those are my issues with them, since my friend mains them it's hard to beat him -_-

On a side note, currently who would you guys recommend for me to main? My playstyle is more of rush in and try to combo, but I can't really do that, maybe it's just me and I need to get better. It seems that I can only win using Marth online but against my friends I'm the 2nd or 3rd best player out of the 7 people I play with. Which probably means I'm really bad :/ (Tips?) I played a lot of Sheik and Fox on the 3DS. I started to play a lot of Marth on the Wii-U.

I'm up to suggestions.

 

[NairWizard]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off so strongly. And I certainly don't think he is better then pikachu (without customs at least, even then who knows). I just wanted to stick up for the little guy in the one category I think he has locked-down.

The game is still young. We all only speak from our personal experiences, and right now those experiences are very limited.
Guess we will have to wait and see how things progress.

Kirby is certainly no slouch when it comes to edgeguarding, but I don't know that I would classify him as superior to Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Meta Knight so easily (he's better in a very specific way, at least that much is true).

For the record, I don't think you came off strongly at all, and even if you did it's no skin off my back, really. I'm a long-time debater. I've given and taken much worse and felt nothing. Comes with the territory of telling people that they're wrong and accepting that you also can be wrong.

Generally when someone comes off strongly it's a sign that you're getting under his skin and that you're winning, so when someone actually does come off strongly in a discussion (not that you've done it, mind, just talking about the topic in general), I take it as encouragement: the other guy is probably just frustrated that he can't get his point across the way that he wants to, and his frustration is showing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's an unnecessarily condescending assumption, but yes, catching the other players' kick with your own, whether it's standing or crouching. More loosely it could mean catching any spacing/baiting/counter attempt move of the other player with any of your moves, but that's not what footsies originally meant. This isn't a huge thing in Smash because of reasons I mentioned in my earlier post.

Footsies is pretty darn broad actually. Its really the struggle to establish mid range dominance. Counter poking is definitely a part of it, but just one part.

Footsies in smash is a thing and its pretty dynamic not to mention all types of awesome.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish Lucario could play footies like he could in Brawl.

 

[Luco]

@ Jabejazz I don’t care about minutiae like exact placement either, and I know full well that a "low tier character" doesn't equate to terribad in this (seemingly) balanced roster. It's just what my gut is telling me in regards to his MUs. I don't see an advantageous spread in our future.

...and I was waxing hyperbole/melodrama a little bit on the frame data (did not know that nair starts up on frame seven; thanks for that). Admittedly. :v I dunno, I just wanna do more, dammit.

Smooth Criminal

I wouldn't be too worried, actually.

I had to verse a DDD in swiss rounds (and also in Bracket) at a recent tournament, and when he went DDD I was losing for the vast majority of the match and probably would have lost had he not accidentally SD-ed. I don't actually know what it is, but DDD does still have some nice follow-ups and quite a bit of his moveset really really scares me. It feels like if I make a single mistake i'm going to be eating a Fair to the face, and dying at 110% or so before rage can actually make my Bthrow kill that penguin makes me more than a little frustrated haha. I really had to alter my playstyle going against him. I wish I could say more on why I think he's decent (maybe still low tier; but that says a lot about the low tiers in this game because Ganon does the same thing and I mentally put him there too), i'll have a look at the videos when they're recorded and tell you. ^_^

@ Emblem Lord - When I envision footsies at it's most basic level, the example that comes to my mind is like, two characters at mid-range trying to space attacks against each other with both of them either waiting for a poke/followup or on the other hand an extension of the other so they can punish. Would this be a correct, if basic, assumption?

 

[Jabejazz]

I wouldn't be too worried, actually.

I had to verse a DDD in swiss rounds (and also in Bracket) at a recent tournament, and when he went DDD I was losing for the vast majority of the match and probably would have lost had he not accidentally SD-ed. I don't actually know what it is, but DDD does still have some nice follow-ups and quite a bit of his moveset really really scares me. It feels like if I make a single mistake i'm going to be eating a Fair to the face, and dying at 110% or so before rage can actually make my Bthrow kill that penguin makes me more than a little frustrated haha. I really had to alter my playstyle going against him. I wish I could say more on why I think he's decent (maybe still low tier; but that says a lot about the low tiers in this game because Ganon does the same thing and I mentally put him there too), i'll have a look at the videos when they're recorded and tell you. ^_^

Grapplers in a nutshell.

 

[Chuva]

From my understanding footsies in other fighting games like SF is referring to the mid-range space control on the ground, to get something going from neutral game.

The thing is, due to the mechanics of Smash, I dont think footsies in this game is necessarily ground-based because of how fluid aerial jump-in options generally are, as opposed to the risks of jump-ins you see in Street Fighter. Jigglypuff should be the more obvious example of this, given how she can control the ground space mostly via aerials. With that you add a whole new layer of complexity to Smash footsies because you also have to factor aerial options (movement, pokes, whiff punishes etc).

Also cursed be whoever came up with the name, it's so damn awkward to say in certain sentences

 

[NairWizard]

I wouldn't be too worried, actually.

I had to verse a DDD in swiss rounds (and also in Bracket) at a recent tournament, and when he went DDD I was losing for the vast majority of the match and probably would have lost had he not accidentally SD-ed. I don't actually know what it is, but DDD does still have some nice follow-ups and quite a bit of his moveset really really scares me. It feels like if I make a single mistake i'm going to be eating a Fair to the face, and dying at 110% or so before rage can actually make my Bthrow kill that penguin makes me more than a little frustrated haha. I really had to alter my playstyle going against him. I wish I could say more on why I think he's decent (maybe still low tier; but that says a lot about the low tiers in this game because Ganon does the same thing and I mentally put him there too), i'll have a look at the videos when they're recorded and tell you. ^_^

@ Emblem Lord - When I envision footsies at it's most basic level, the example that comes to my mind is like, two characters at mid-range trying to space attacks against each other with both of them either waiting for a poke/followup or on the other hand an extension of the other so they can punish. Would this be a correct, if basic, assumption?

You should be going super aggressively for Dedede's throat once you find an opening. Dedede wants you to play the neutral game with him because he's big and scary, and you might not be able to abuse his large frame when you are scared of your own options.

Intimidation is big characters' best tool. Don't let all that range, strength, and disjointedness scare you, and you'll get him up to 4,000% in no time.

 

[Luco]

You should be going super aggressively for Dedede's throat once you find an opening. Dedede wants you to play the neutral game with him because he's big and scary, and you might not be able to abuse his large frame when you are scared of your own options.

Intimidation is big characters' best tool. Don't let all that range, strength, and disjointedness scare you, and you'll get him up to 4,000% in no time.

Ah yeah I actually planned to mention it when I was first writing the post, but in bracket that was the approach I took and I did significantly better. He was still scary as hell, though, hahaha.

You could be right.

 

[ZHMT]

Honestly, I feel that Melee Jigglypuff is still basically a bad character who just happens to fight the top tiers well. This is why despite being unchanged in PM she's now one of the worst.

Last I remember, Jiggs only disadvantaged matchup in Melee was Fox. She had steady good matchups throughout the roster. Its not like her best matchups were Marth and Sheik and that's why she was top tier. She was a good character, and that's why she had 7/3 matchups vs most of the low tier characters. IIRC she wasn't very good vs some middle characters like Link/Young Link but idk, I may be wrong there.

I don't understand why she's considered bad in PM because I don't play or watch PM. If she truly stayed the same that's fine. However we have a different roster in that game and Melee vets like Mewtwo have changed. Plus all the new characters like Ivysaur and Lucas.

Jigglypuff is a character that's dependant on the engine of the game more than most, similar to how Captain Falcon is. In ssb4, I do believe Jigglypuff is a great character because she has the ability to steal wins more than any other character in this entire game. She has the ability to stop playing the game whenever she feels like it, a high damaging grab game, and has spammable safe kill moves. I for one learned a lot of things about Puff that I would bet lots of people don't realise she can do. In example, her weak nair true comboing into back air at a huge percent window nearby the ledge, oh and btw you don't have to commit at all to it.

As this game gets patched, we may see engine changes, like rage scaling to weight, or a overall landing lag change, things that are insane for the character among others.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I wish Lucario could play footies like he could in Brawl.

[collapse=Lucario Footsies?]

[/collapse]

Anyways, real talk. I tried working with Mii Swordfigher for the first time today. I dunno if he's the worst character in the game but honestly I can parrot what everyone is saying about him being a worse link. Someone mentioned earlier with all his movement specials he might be interesting as a character to maybe run away and move a bunch but honestly the moves have so much start up and end lag it wouldn't work. Most of his moves just plain are laggy and annoying. Definately a low tier character. One of the few characters I feel confident in saying is outright bad.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Who do u guys feel is the worst character

 

[Luco]

I'm thinking possibly swordfighter. Not sure though.

 

[Signia]

Who do u guys feel is the worst character

Wii Fit Trainer

 

[LiteralGrill]

Worst?

I'm not sure, Olimar is pretty bad though.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Wii fit trainer is probably mid. She isn't near the worst

 

[Signia]

Wii fit trainer is probably mid. She isn't near the worst

She has slow movement, tiny hitboxes, and kinda ok projectile zoning. Knockback, damage, and combos are just average. Without customs, what reason is there to pick this character? Waifu syndrome?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Who do u guys feel is the worst character

I've heard Mii Swordsman, Olimar, Luigi, and Dr. Mario suggested in the past. Personally my money's on Olimar but I was never really able to get the hang of him other than abusing his smashes so I may be missing something.

I feel it's important to note that although any list of characters will inevitably have a "worst," that doesn't necessarily mean the worst character is garbage. And I don't think any character in this game is straight up garbage like Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganondorf were.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I wouldn't be too worried, actually.

I had to verse a DDD in swiss rounds (and also in Bracket) at a recent tournament, and when he went DDD I was losing for the vast majority of the match and probably would have lost had he not accidentally SD-ed. I don't actually know what it is, but DDD does still have some nice follow-ups and quite a bit of his moveset really really scares me. It feels like if I make a single mistake i'm going to be eating a Fair to the face, and dying at 110% or so before rage can actually make my Bthrow kill that penguin makes me more than a little frustrated haha. I really had to alter my playstyle going against him. I wish I could say more on why I think he's decent (maybe still low tier; but that says a lot about the low tiers in this game because Ganon does the same thing and I mentally put him there too), i'll have a look at the videos when they're recorded and tell you. ^_^

Grapplers in a nutshell.

I'll try not to worry too much, guys. I'm just gonna play my damn character and do my best.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Flamecircle]

Wii fit trainer is probably mid. She isn't near the worst

You keep saying this, but you're not saying much to prove your point. While her B moves are quite good, her A moves are almost all terrible in return.

I used to think Luigi and Kirby were the worst, but Mr.concon winning the reddit tourney with Luigi opened my eyes to how incredibly lagless luigi is. Still think Kirby doesn't have much, though.

Olimar definitely isn't the worst, I think. He still has the ability to smash out of neutral, and that's always a strong ability. Pretty decent offstage ability too, with the recovery. And while not technically strong, his stealth grabs are still very... stealth.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I feel it's important to note that although any list of characters will inevitably have a "worst," that doesn't necessarily mean the worst character is garbage. And I don't think any character in this game is straight up garbage like Melee Kirby or Brawl Ganondorf were.

Generally the worse characters are just hindered by a few design flaws instead of being flat out crippled. The most notably example being Olimar, but that's mainly due to the Pikmin AI being somewhat eccentric at inappropriate times, especially in a very fast paced battle. If it wasn't for that Olimar would be a more practical character.

 

[Luco]

I feel like a character who hates dealing with small characters isn't going to be a very successful mid, but feel free to convince me.

This is in reference to Wii Fit trainer, btw.

 

[Yonder]

Finally, people are realizing Luigi isn't bottom 5! Thanks to Mr. ConCon!

Honestly, just realize him as a middle of the mid tier, or even a low mid or top of the low. But he is not bottom 5. Those combos are just scary scary scary.

Also, the new buffs on him increased his kill power on his F and D smash. Hitboxes for Up B are bigger too. Currently we are testing D throw to Up B on characters, and so far it's fairly legitimate, scoring a kill anywhere from 80-120% on most characters. No Vectoring also helps...

Edit: As to worst character from previous posts, I still think Olimar, followed by Doc.

 

[Luco]

Speaking of Luigi, Boss just beat Seagull's Sonic in GFs a moment ago for Xanadu. :o

 

[Shaya]

Luigi is growing on me, very quickly.

He's been really common on Wifi ever since they had those two-three conquests in a row with Luigi in them a couple weeks ago.
Probably the best character on wifi, tbh. His projectiles are GOOD-ish on shield, combo into things on hit, is extremely fast and spammable. Crazy.

His down throw makes Diddy mad, super amazing priority/start up "sex kick" like aerials everywhere. Pretty much perfectly tuned to combo people like he's in Smash 64 (as Mario); but with the infamous fantastic kill power.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I disagree with the notion of Luigi being bottom. I don't think Doc is anywhere near the bottom 5 (nor is Luigi, for that matter). Doc would be bottom 20, Low tier if I had to estimate, but Bottom 5? Mii Swordsman is yuck, Olimar is blegh...it's hard for me to fill in the other spots but I do not think he is the worst or one of the worst in the game lol. He's pretty underwhelming though, definitely below average (low tier). I don't think Doc's traits really stick him in bottom 5 for me, at the very least.

Also yeah Luigi is good. As I said, he can have some difficulty getting in, but when he does everything dies.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yo guys, I told you Luigi was underrated.

This character has a better projectile than Mario, more frame tight combos that do like 1.5x as much damage, and high KO power on most moves. Plus his frame 2 Jab has disgusting range. Everyone also has to play somewhat respectfully against Cyclone because it basically allows Luigi to get around playing footsies.

Luigi's F-air is a CRAZY move. I swear, the frame data on that move is basically one of the best among aerials period.

 

[Radical Larry]

So, I really do think Link is a top 15 character now. Here's what I know from my experience:

Basically, his SH Bomb Drop (dropping a bomb with Z-air) is very effective at baiting and mind-games against his opponents, and especially useful against Sonic, making the latter have to create a new strategy to get in. This also makes Link superior in one way to Toon Link, as his SH Bombs do not explode, unlike Toon Link's, which do explode when trying the same thing at any distance (even point blank drop). This is also great against the projectile spamming characters with large projectiles, such as Lucario and Samus. It's a guarantee that the projectiles will collide with the bombs, making them diminish. (As if Link couldn't already block them, we got this.)

As a side note, SH Bomb Drop works with Meteor Bombs, and using the Meteor Bomb Drop off the edge could net you luck in causing a meteor on your opponent.

Then there's the Reversal U-Spec, which, while somewhat unchanging, is quite the bait/mind game tactic (and the result of my stick turning right while using U-Spec).

When talking about good footsies and SH tactics, his SH N-air is very decent against Little Mac, as while Mac can ignore most footsies, Link can counter him by using the SHFF N-air behind Little Mac (due to a hitbox being behind Link during the attack). It's also very safe to use and safe on block due to its very low landing lag. His SH F-air is also safe on block, especially SHFF F-air, due to its own little landing lag.

His U-air is also great for out-ranging most attacks coming down at Link; its hugely disjointed hitbox makes it safe for Link to hit from below, as the sword almost always will hit any opponent who tries an impromptu attack downward. The only two attacks that I know may defeat it from above are Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot and Rosalina's D-Air.

His D-air is very safe on block, due to the bouncing effect it retains; of course, this is if you don't use the FF version of it, where it pierces through a character. Now, talking about the FF variation, it's extremely useful in situations where Link is being sent to the upper blast zone, and is a great escape tool for him, as well as being a good KO tool against impromptu attackers (sends them straight up or ricochets them depending when he hits).

Talking about his throws, here are a few great setups and tactics:

Spoiler

D-Throw > B-Air
D-Throw > U-Smash
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Tilt
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Air
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Air > Boomerang > F-Air
F-Throw > F-Air
U-Throw > U-Air
U-Throw > Spin Attack Aerial

So, this is my experience overall with Link. He's a very solid character with amazing tools at his disposal, and he feels like a top 15 character (top 10 with Meteor Bombs). Attacks are great, strategies are amazing, recovery is god-like (compared to Brawl), and overall just amazing. He is widely underestimated as a character, but he is very dangerous in the right hands.

 

[Yonder]

Link feels beautiful in this game. My favorite portrayal of him easily. His customs rock too, namely power bow [Kills at around 80% wtf?] and Meteor bombs are great. A solid high mid with those customs. Probably middle of mid without.

Anyways...breaking Luigi news: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbwu-3ds-luigi-chain-grab.379906/

Credit to Dire Creeper.

It looks hard to pull off sure, but we're just exploring it now.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, this early metagame in which events don't have custom moves... So far from what I've seen locally it's the Diddy Kong show. The character has no clear weaknesses and seems to win every match-up. He's just fast, powerful, and ranged all at once with everything flowing and comboing very well. This isn't how things seemed at all when I was playing on 3ds with customs since Diddy Kong has the worst set of customs in the game and so many other characters just have threats on his overall level, but even just the handful of no customs sessions on Wii U I've had have been terrifying. If customs are banned, is there any character on Diddy's level at all?

 

[Yonder]

So, this early metagame in which events don't have custom moves... So far from what I've seen locally it's the Diddy Kong show. The character has no clear weaknesses and seems to win every match-up. He's just fast, powerful, and ranged all at once with everything flowing and comboing very well. This isn't how things seemed at all when I was playing on 3ds with customs since Diddy Kong has the worst set of customs in the game and so many other characters just have threats on his overall level, but even just the handful of no customs sessions on Wii U I've had have been terrifying. If customs are banned, is there any character on Diddy's level at all?

...

Hmm...

Lately I've found Lucario pretty ridiculous. Or maybe that's just me raging over how damn stupid his aura is. How powerful it makes his attacks with every smash KOing at 60% or so, and having the longest distanced recovery ever while in the 100%.

Idk. If Lucario didn't have aura though and acted like a normal mid weight with normal KO power, I think he'd be a mid tier easy.

A good Sonic is also very frightening. I think Sheik could keep up too possibly.

 

[Tristan_win]

So, this early metagame in which events don't have custom moves... So far from what I've seen locally it's the Diddy Kong show. The character has no clear weaknesses and seems to win every match-up. He's just fast, powerful, and ranged all at once with everything flowing and comboing very well. This isn't how things seemed at all when I was playing on 3ds with customs since Diddy Kong has the worst set of customs in the game and so many other characters just have threats on his overall level, but even just the handful of no customs sessions on Wii U I've had have been terrifying. If customs are banned, is there any character on Diddy's level at all?

Unfortunately we might have to leave it up to Nintendo. A lot of the 'top tiers' were nerf with this first real patch while Diddy was left untouched. They will most likely cut down on his kill power and damage a bit like they did for Sheik in the next patch.

I do agree with you though that customs would help balance things a bit.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think it's very interesting that casual players and even a lot of you guys are still putting ZSS in like top 5. Why is that? When I thought she'd received a lot of buffs in the other thread, people were outraged.

From Brawl, a game where ZSS was good but flawed in a lot of ways, she received really very few positive changes. Most of the buffs from Brawl were changes to how her moves work on block and a few bug fixes.

Buffs:
- Jab completes (bug fix)
- up-b no longer a tether (buff in some match-ups, worse in others)
- zair (useless really except during recovery and against very tall characters)
- nair is safe on block
- down-b has more invincibility frames and the arc can be adjusted
- paralyzer can be fired before being fully charged

I might have missed a couple of things, but pretty much everything else was a nerf. Her range is worse, her frame data is worse (jab +1 frame, dtilt +3 frames, uar +2 frames, other stuff) she doesn't start with suit pieces, side-b isn't safe vs fast characters and no longer kills, her damage is worse across the board (fair 12% from 17%, dsmash 8% from 11% and can't be used twice), could go on and on. Her grab is still 16 frames and it might have slightly less recovery but it's still probably the worst in the game. Hey, at least they got rid of the dead zone.

The overall approach to ZSS was that her rewards from low-commitment play are just worse. Her spacing tools aren't as good, her damage not as high from those positions. In exchange she got approaches in nair and fast fall uair. Her kill power is about as good as it always was, but it was shifted to a place where she must land paralyzer or commit instead of just fishing for side-bs and back airs.

ZSS is a good character for largely the same reasons she was a good character in brawl. She is more consistent now and less buggy, but probably significantly less "scary". Relatively she's a little better because the balancing points are different in this game, but she isn't in the same tier as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. It's just not reasonable.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

She has slow movement, tiny hitboxes, and kinda ok projectile zoning. Knockback, damage, and combos are just average. Without customs, what reason is there to pick this character? Waifu syndrome?

slow movement? Ok no she's faster than most the cast

I feel like a character who hates dealing with small characters isn't going to be a very successful mid, but feel free to convince me.

This is in reference to Wii Fit trainer, btw.

She is fast. So she can rush so characters down and she has good combos like upthrow>uair>fair & nair>backhit ftilt>header. Her jab also grounds U so she can follow off or try to get the read of them popping out. She also has and amazing ledge game. When its not safe to go on the stage, she can use headers until one hits then she can run on the stage. Fsmash is extremely strong, I've even gotten kills at 80% with it. With pivoting a thing she can pivot fsmash and play mind games. Pivoting her ftilt can also help her a lot. The back hit sends u up and the front hit can kill. The front hit knocks U forward so its like a "get away" Attack. She can camp really well. Due to her low crouch she has lots of better matchups like ZSS. Diddy. Etc.

Also by saying she has a problem against short people doesn't make her mid. Then ur saying that ZSS is low tier, exactly.

Here's some good gameplay of wobbles playing her

http://youtu.be/AVmtHnB9D6w
http://youtu.be/wb2NU4plZN4

 

[Luco]

slow movement? Ok no she's faster than most the cast


She is fast. So she can rush so characters down and she has good combos like upthrow>uair>fair & nair>backhit ftilt>header. Her jab also grounds U so she can follow off or try to get the read of them popping out. She also has and amazing ledge game. When its not safe to go on the stage, she can use headers until one hits then she can run on the stage. Fsmash is extremely strong, I've even gotten kills at 80% with it. With pivoting a thing she can pivot fsmash and play mind games. Pivoting her ftilt can also help her a lot. The back hit sends u up and the front hit can kill. The front hit knocks U forward so its like a "get away" Attack. She can camp really well. Due to her low crouch she has lots of better matchups like ZSS. Diddy. Etc.

Also by saying she has a problem against short people doesn't make her mid. Then ur saying that ZSS is low tier, exactly.

Here's some good gameplay of wobbles playing her

http://youtu.be/AVmtHnB9D6w
http://youtu.be/wb2NU4plZN4

Umm... not quite. When I talk about her having trouble with short characters, i'm not referring to characters that can crouch low or w/e, i'm referring to short characters in general, who ZSS still has just about everything on save for like jab and I dunno. The thing is, crouching generally does not affect MUs. You don't hear of anyone going "so against this character, what you really wanna do is crouch to avoid X, Y and Z attacks" because generally you're doing... other things. I'm sorry but crouch in this game rarely actually does anything that other stuff doesn't, at least competitively, lol.

Wii Fit Trainer's hitboxes are really awkward, and most small characters will avoid them even whilst doing their normal stuff. Even some large characters will avoid her hitboxes because in many cases they're not only small but she doesn't have enough range. Go back to that first match and you'll see her use a Dtilt like right next to DDD and she doesn't even touch his shield. In another instance she F-tilts very close to him and very little happens, and her Nair is like 'hmmm'.

For the record, i'm not saying she's the worst character in the game or even bottom tier. I think she's low most likely, with characters like DDD and Ganon who are still scary. Most of your stuff rings true I think to some extent, it's just most characters just perform their roles better than her due to their hitboxes being where they need to be.

 

[Emblem Lord]

From my understanding footsies in other fighting games like SF is referring to the mid-range space control on the ground, to get something going from neutral game.

The thing is, due to the mechanics of Smash, I dont think footsies in this game is necessarily ground-based because of how fluid aerial jump-in options generally are, as opposed to the risks of jump-ins you see in Street Fighter. Jigglypuff should be the more obvious example of this, given how she can control the ground space mostly via aerials. With that you add a whole new layer of complexity to Smash footsies because you also have to factor aerial options (movement, pokes, whiff punishes etc).

Also cursed be whoever came up with the name, it's so damn awkward to say in certain sentences

Listen to this guy.

He knows the deal.

Footsies in smash is dynamic due to short hops, armor attacks, transcendent moves and the mobility options. There is alot going on at any given time.

Super special awesome

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think it's very interesting that casual players and even a lot of you guys are still putting ZSS in like top 5. Why is that? When I thought she'd received a lot of buffs in the other thread, people were outraged.

From Brawl, a game where ZSS was good but flawed in a lot of ways, she received really very few positive changes. Most of the buffs from Brawl were changes to how her moves work on block and a few bug fixes.

Buffs:
- Jab completes (bug fix)
- up-b no longer a tether (buff in some match-ups, worse in others)
- zair (useless really except during recovery and against very tall characters)
- nair is safe on block
- down-b has more invincibility frames and the arc can be adjusted
- paralyzer can be fired before being fully charged

I might have missed a couple of things, but pretty much everything else was a nerf. Her range is worse, her frame data is worse (jab +1 frame, dtilt +3 frames, uar +2 frames, other stuff) she doesn't start with suit pieces, side-b isn't safe vs fast characters and no longer kills, her damage is worse across the board (fair 12% from 17%, dsmash 8% from 11% and can't be used twice), could go on and on. Her grab is still 16 frames and it might have slightly less recovery but it's still probably the worst in the game. Hey, at least they got rid of the dead zone.

The overall approach to ZSS was that her rewards from low-commitment play are just worse. Her spacing tools aren't as good, her damage not as high from those positions. In exchange she got approaches in nair and fast fall uair. Her kill power is about as good as it always was, but it was shifted to a place where she must land paralyzer or commit instead of just fishing for side-bs and back airs.

ZSS is a good character for largely the same reasons she was a good character in brawl. She is more consistent now and less buggy, but probably significantly less "scary". Relatively she's a little better because the balancing points are different in this game, but she isn't in the same tier as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. It's just not reasonable.

I'm beginning to agree with this tbh. In particular, her Uair and Bair seem a lot less overpowering than they were in Brawl. Uair is still really, really good, and Bair is pretty solid, but they definitely aren't as solid as they used to be. And yeah, not starting with suit pieces is a pretty damn huge nerf, all things considered.

ZSS's main strength now, IMO, is that she's probably one of the hardest characters in the game to edgeguard (in theory, at least), and her off-stage game is pretty stellar. Although actually getting them off-stage isn't always that easy...

 

[Trifroze]

Listen to this guy.

He knows the deal.

Footsies in smash is dynamic due to short hops, armor attacks, transcendent moves and the mobility options. There is alot going on at any given time.

Super special awesome

My problem is that footsies is (or at least was) a clearly defined term in the FGC and now it's being used wrong, perhaps by someone starting to relate the term to a similar but still a very different type of gameplay. It's like calling sword slashes or kicks jabs as long as they're neutral A attacks

oh wait ****

But nah that actually makes sense because they all have largely the same function and functionality.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Olimar's not bad.