Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

Except they... don't? Please enlighten me on who has a better, more well rounded, and effective aerial kit, or even one similar to Jiggs.

Mario and Kirby are two examples of characters with generally similar aerial moves. I would take Fox or Falco's aerials over Jiggs in a heartbeat, they also generally have some similarities but tend to have better properties. I also think Yoshi, Sheik, and maybe GW have better aerial kits overall. If we're talking PM, Mewtwo and Ivysaur completely destroy her aerials. Ivysaur Bair alone is probably better than than Jigglypuff.

Well, I already said my side... so... Nair is an insanely busted spacing tool. Seriously, its like Melee Marth Fair. Its super good. Dair is her worst aerial imo, but it still is great since its safe on shield, and good for hit and run.

No one denies that sex kicks are great tools. I just don't see much about her sex kick that doesn't apply to all of them.

Also, SINCE WHEN WAS HER AERIAL SPEED NOT PART OF HER AERIAL GAME? It's like the keystone of it all! Seriously, it's like you're getting rid of half the character to say that the other half is bad. Jiggs' speed, coupled with Nair's insane active length, or bair's amazing poking ability, allows her to get in.

Her air speed is essential to her aerial game, but I think it's important to note that it's her air speed that makes her aerials good, not some intrinsic property of those moves. This highlights the fact that her gameplan is basically just "use air speed to weave back and forth and look for openings to land aerials". The reason the others don't stand out that much is because all of her aerials have fairly similar usuage, and Bair is clearly the best of them for poking. Sure, Dair is nice if you can land it, but you have to get even closer to land Dair compared to Bair and that's just giving your opponent more time to poke you with something.

Rest is high risk, high reward, but what he was getting at was that the presence of Rest, something that you have no risk in having as part of your toolset, already gives it high reward.

I don't respect Rest at all when fighting Jiggs. IMO, this is the optimal way to deal with her. She has to get in and make a really hard read to land it, as long as you play solid opportunities to land the attack are few (though they do hurt like hell if she gets one, no one denies that). If she whiffs one that's a huge win for you.


Anyway, I don't really think it's possible to argue that Jiggs isn't a one-dimensional character. She's decent at her one dimension, but she doesn't really have much versatility overall. This might be okay if she wasn't also hampered by the totally unnecessary weakness of having the game's worst defense and dying instantly on shield break.

 

[ZHMT]

Rest isn't a read based move, well its not supposed to be anyway. Sure you can rest roll reads and stuff but that's not the main reason its good. It is good because it is reaction based and able to be used when its guaranteed to hit, like after an uair, utilt, fair/bair or when your opponent misspaces a move. It is guaranteed in those cases. You can't do this with most if not any of the other moves in the game with the same reward, its not even close, barring maybe Warios down B, which is weaker in most cases I think.

Also you do know that her back air is stronger than her Fsmash right? Its stronger than Sonics, Falcons, Samus back air for sure, those are the ones I know of anyway but I'm having trouble thinking of a character with a stronger one that isn't a heavyweight, even then...

Also Kirbys aerials are so inferior to Puffs its not even a contest at all. Falco? I don't know enough of to reliably comment on it, but from what I've seen and heard there's no way.

 

[NairWizard]

Not sure sure about this one. His recovery, while good as far as covering range goes, isn't exactly amazing
And I'm not even talking about his Gyroid. All 3 are super exploitable.

Extreme Balloon Trip is probably by far his best option, but I feel his recovery is very similar to Ness; both are really exploitable, but dangerous if you mess up.

He's hands down amazing in neutral, pretty good in positive, but his negative state is nothing to write home about.

That's fair; on the list he's probably the one I would question the most anyway. However, I think his recovery is surprisingly good because you have to hit both balloons in order to gimp him, but if you hit Villager himself he can just up-b again. It also covers a lot of distance.

Rocket is useful for getting out of juggles as well, though you can punish the landing if Villager is too far up.

 

[Terotrous]

Rest isn't a read based move, well its not supposed to be anyway. Sure you can rest roll reads and stuff but that's not the main reason its good. It is good because it is reaction based and able to be used when its guaranteed to hit, like after an uair, utilt, fair/bair or when your opponent misspaces a move. It is guaranteed in those cases.

Most of those require a correct read on DI and only work at certain percents. They also generally seem less reliable in Smash 4, though perhaps they became more reliable in 1.0.4.

Also you do know that her back air is stronger than her Fsmash right? Its stronger than Sonics, Falcons, Samus back air for sure, those are the ones I know of anyway but I'm having trouble thinking of a character with a stronger one that isn't a heavyweight, even then...

Yes, that's why I called it fantastic. One of the best Bairs for sure. Unfortunately, it's so useful for everything that it will usually be pretty stale and thus kills a little later than it might. I have no idea how you would ever get the freshness bonus on Bair.

Also Kirbys aerials are so inferior to Puffs its not even a contest at all. Falco? I don't know enough of to reliably comment on it, but from what I've seen and heard there's no way.

I should probably clarify that I meant Melee Falco there.

Also, for Kirby, again, I think the main thing that makes his aerials worse is that his air speed is a lot worse. It's the air speed that makes Jiggs' aerials, but that means that anyone who can mitigate the weave basically mitigates her entire aerial kit.

 

[ZHMT]

Jigglypuffs shield is great for her character model. She is highly resistant to shield poking. Shields have what? 50 health? My shield isn't breaking to attacks. If I wanna shield a bowser down B, that's my fault. Realistically, most characters that get their shield broken are going to be KOd anyway.

Also this game doesn't have enough shieldstun to do shield break combos and the shield damage over time by holding it isn't high, I don't see where the shield breaks are happening.

 

[ChampKing]

Eh. One dimensional is fine if you are extremely potent in that dimension like Melee Jiggs is. No idea about this game's Jiggs though.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Mario and Kirby are two examples of characters with generally similar aerial moves. I would take Fox or Falco's aerials over Jiggs in a heartbeat, they also generally have some similarities but tend to have better properties. I also think Yoshi, Sheik, and maybe GW have better aerial kits overall.

Kirby's aerials, as well as Mario's aren't even close to as good. Kirby has nair which is nice, fair which is iffy, terrible if you whiff. Kirby's bair is good, yeah, but its no better than Puff's Fair, Nair, or Bair. Up Air is alright? Puff still has a better up air with amazing disjoint and whatnot. Similar dairs, but Kirby's is better to gimp with. Mario has a nice up air for combos, but like... nothing for juggles. Mario's fair has insane lag, dair is a bit more risky, nair is worse because Mario has worse momentum. Bair is nice, but a little weak and not great for poking.

Spacies.... what?! Falco's dair has insane lag, up air is nice, fair is terrible on whiff, not safe at all unless you know you are going to hit. Bair is good, but has short active frames. Nair is alright in that you can hit with it, but the reward is poor. Fox's nair is good, but still a worse sex kick. Bair is good, but similar to Falcos. Also has less reward than Puff's Fair or Bair. Fox Fair is like.... pointless for spacing. Fox Up Air is always good, but once again, poor for juggling as you want that thing fresh. Fox Dair is just a Puff Dair thats less than half as nice.


Yoshi... Fair's lag makes it eh. Nice to space with, but still eh. Yoshi's sex kick is weaker, but still good. Up Air is fantastic, a lot like Puff's except that its a better kill move than it is for juggling,. Dair is riskier, has a lot of endlag/land lag. Also spacing Dair is like, bad. Dair is def not safe on shield imo due to the landing lag. Bair is a decent spacing tool but nothing on the levels of Bair and Nair from Puff. Nice kill move tho, but still loses to Puff Bair there.

Shiek... Similar thing with Up Air to Yoshi, except that its easier to land and a good juggling tool early on. Great move, better than Puff's Up Air imo. Both are still amazing. Fair is a good combo finisher/starter, but thats about where it ends. Percent. Can also lead to some tech chases. Another good move though. Nair is great, but once again, not as good as Puff's Nair. Generally less reward. Bair is a busted move as well. Amazing range. But Puff Bair has better range and poking abilities, as well as spacing use due to Puff's aerial momentum. Dair is useless. A very bad move imo. Sheik is probably the closest to puff in the strength out of what you listed, but still, the lack of a safe on shield Drill, worse poking abilities, and overall spacing abilities still makes it weaker imo.

GnW... I can't really speak on him. Not enough experience, but overall I really doubt he beats Puff's aerial toolkit.

BTW, I'm a Yoshi main with secondaries of Falco and Kirby out of the ones you listed. I play some Sheik and Fox. Also, Puff is a secondary of mine that I consider to be worse than my Falco so....

No one denies that sex kicks are great tools. I just don't see much about her sex kick that doesn't apply to all of them.

Its better for spacing than the rest. Also amazing for mixups due to how different it is than bair and even fair. And yeah, Puff's aerial momentum is a key factor.


EDIT: Wait so you mean Melee Spacies?

Both Fairs are garbage. Fox Up Air kills early, yeah. Nice fast move. Only downside is that it can be SDI'd out of. Fox Dair is a worse puff Dair. Falco Dair is crazy jank, lol. This is coming from a Melee Falco main. Falco's Dair, imo, is the best move in the game after like Shines and Rest. All three nairs are godly. Spacies can space theirs due to the engine. Same thing for bair. Puff's bair is amazing. Spacie bair (especially Falco's) is super good, but not Puff good (once again, aerial velocity). Puff's aerial toolkit is better in Melee than 4. Puff's aerial moveset way outclasses spacie aerials.

Melee Falco main here... Also, idk why we're comparing Melee Spacies, super jank characters, to Smash 4 Puff...

Her air speed is essential to her aerial game, but I think it's important to note that it's her air speed that makes her aerials good, not some intrinsic property of those moves.

Why does this matter at all? I see no point at all in this as it all comes together for her overall aerial game. I really don't see what you're getting at.

This highlights the fact that her gameplan is basically just "use air speed to weave back and forth and look for openings to land aerials". The reason the others don't stand out that much is because all of her aerials have fairly similar usuage, and Bair is clearly the best of them for poking. Sure, Dair is okay, but you have to get even closer to land Dair compared to Bair and that's just giving your opponent more time to poke you with something.

Except they don't have similar usage? Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpAir are all very different and serve very different purposes. Bair and Fair are more similar, but both are very good. Nair and Bair are both great spacing tools, but Bair is more for straight up poking than Nair is, and Nair is more of keep away due to its hitbox being out for forever.

Dair is a good shield poke and move to attack with from above. I don't see how your opponent is going to poke you when their shield is being drilled? Puff can just leave after her Dair... it really is that easy

I don't respect Rest at all when fighting Jiggs. IMO, this is the optimal way to deal with her. She has to get in and make a really hard read to land it, as long as you play solid opportunities to land the attack are few (though they do hurt like hell if she gets one, no one denies that). If she whiffs one that's a huge win for you.

Puff players shouldn't be fishing for Rest. She can already do enough with her aerials that she shouldn't need to Rest. However, if the opposing player screws up enough to allow for the Rest, go for it.

Anyway, I don't really think it's possible to argue that Jiggs isn't a one dimensional character. She's decent at her one-dimension, but she doesn't really have much versatility overall.

Yeah, she's an aerial based character, You're right. She'll be in the air most of the time. It's what she can do in the air that gives her versatility.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If we're talking Melee Falco's aerials (in the context of this discussion, we might be? I'm lost) then no, Dair is not bad at all lmfao.

I think Jiggs is good in Sm4sh but the low shieldstun makes her gameplan a good deal less reliable in a sense due to the low as hell shieldstun, meaning she has to space perfectly to not get shieldgrabbed, and since she works best close where opponents have to respect her aerials, it's a lot riskier here. I mean, still a solid character by virtue of offstage pressure and ok on-stage. I can see use in situations.

 

[Asdioh]

Quick question with regards to Jigglypuff: you know how in this game, Star KOs have a chance of them just dying off the top instantly? Is that random, because if so that makes it annoyingly easy for people to revenge KO Jigglypuff. I remember reading that those instant top screen KOs were supposed to be when the game is nearing its end, but it seems random to me. It just seems like it affects Jigglypuff more than any other character, because of how long it takes Rest to end. It's like how in Melee people would DI so they could die off the side and respawn instantly, but in this game you don't even need to do that.

 

[Esquire]

I understand that the whole "Custom Move" subject keeps this character out of common discussion (since its first set of custom moves aren't the most optimal combination as a group), but Mii Brawler is a legit character that could easily be placed in the top half of rankings conservatively. After spending some time offline with it, I've gotten a good sense of its strengths and weaknesses and came up with some overall pro/con opinions and suggestions as to what custom moves benefit it the most. I'll also go a bit into his aerials and normals. Keep in mind that I'm using the mid/mid build for it, as neutral Mii options seem to be the best idea for tournaments.

Pros

• Extremely mobile. Good mobility on the ground and in the air, can easily space itself for combos.
• Rush down game is intense. Puts pressure on opponents quickly with strong tilts and footsies.
• Throw combo potential is significant. DThrow combos into a ton of options for good damage. Grab game is excellent.
• Aerial options are strong. While none deal significant knockback at lower damages, damage is overall high, active frames are long, and combo potential is extremely high.
• Custom moves offer viable kill options and give Mii Brawler varied recovery and rush down options.
• Smash moves have above average knockback and relatively quick start-up times. High damage.

Cons

• Best recovery options are fairly predictable and lack vertical height.
• Reach on normals is below average. Doesn't struggle to make up space, but often gets trumped by characters with longer normals.
• Recovery on Smash attacks is horrendous, particularly FSmash and DSmash. Major kill options are risky.
• Has no solid answer to strong projectile games. Struggles if it can't apply pressure up close consistently.
• Has trouble against characters with disjointed hitboxes.

Normals

• Jab - AA combo is fast, can be used as a means to interrupt attacks or start a mix-up. AA -> Throw is particularly useful. AAA Multi-hit deals good damage (~12% minimal), but is easy to escape as the time in between AA+A is fairly long.
• Tilts - FTilt is similar to Fox's FTilt, but is less speedy and with greater knockback. Decent reach. Can be tilted diagonally. UTilt has tremendous reach vertically and a good front hitbox. Can combo into itself on bigger opponents or opponents near 0% damage most of the time (although not a true combo). Good anti-air. DTilt has deceptively good reach and damage, plus pops opponent into the air for combo potential. Average in speed.
• Smashes - FSmash has fast start-up and does tremendous damage (~17% uncharged). The ending lag, however, is incredibly slow and puts Mii Brawler at an extreme disadvantage. Should be used as a punish. DSmash has below average reach and deals average damage, but knockback is pretty good and start-up time is fast. Recovery is average. Important to note that the back of the attack is stronger than the front in both damage and knockback. USmash has the least amount of ending recovery while dealing average damage. Good knockback, and has a sourspot that ensure a hit on both sides. All three moves have good to great kill potential (FSmash = 85%, USmash = 120%, DSmash = 130% back/145% front).
• Aerials - NAir is awesome, but has some weird properties. Good damage, sex kick, great priority, and small landing lag. However, the recovery of the move in the air is actually kind of bad. Significantly faster to use the move and land than it is to use the move and wait for recovery in the air. Hard to use off of the stage as a result. FAir hits twice for good damage. Combos well with DThrow at low percentages and keeps combo potential alive. Good landing lag and average aerial recovery. UAir is a combo move that pairs well with a number of its attacks, particularly UTilt and DThrow. Quick and little lag overall. BAir deals high damage and has good knockback. Little landing lag. Hitbox is generous. DAir is a spike in the air. Astonishingly low recovery both in the air and to the ground for a spike. Spiking power is average.

Specials

• Neutral Specials

1. Shot Put - 8.5/10 - This is such a great, unique projectile that takes some careful timing and planning to use properly. Extreme damage for a projectile of its caliber (14% after throw, 11% after one bounce, 8% after two bounces). Excellent gimping tool, gravity and distance really hinders vertical recoveries. In the air, you can actually freely move left and right during the animation. The iron ball out-prioritizes almost all other projectiles. Recovery after the throw, though, is extremely sluggish. Easily punished if used incorrectly. Should not be used as a free projectile, but rather for one-time spacing and gimping.
2. Ultimate Uppercut - 5/10 - Chargeable uppercut that deals good damage and has good knockback. Charging period isn't too long, but the reward is nothing to write home about. Smashes do similar things. Very situational.
3. Exploding Side Kick - 6.5/10 - Essentially Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch. Can be reversed. Great knockback, more knockback if reversed. Does less damage and knockback in the air. Good punish move, but comes with same downfalls as the Captain's Punch.

• Side Specials

1. Onslaught - 7/10 - Rushes forward and closes distance well. Has surprisingly good knockback. Activates when opponent is hit or shield is hit. Quick start-up. Average to below average damage. If it misses, leaves Mii vulnerable. Can be used as a horizontal recovery, but goes into fall state after. Situational, but can catch people by surprise.
2. Burning Dropkick - 8/10 - Chargeable side kick that can act as a recovery. Deals good damage and has great knockback, especially if charged. Recovery is the same distance as Onslaught if uncharged, but important to note that you can act out of Burning Dropkick after it's done. If charged, goes further. Charging period makes it situational on the ground, but it's a strong air and recovery option.
3. Headache Maker - 3/10 - Trying to find a use for this was a headache...it does have good damage when used on the ground, but knockback is just okay. Next to useless in the air, doesn't even spike. Probably Brawler's worst special move.

• Up Specials

1. Soaring Axe Kick - 5.5/10 - Brawler's best vertical recovery. Outside of that, does decent damage and can somewhat combo into itself as a two-hit attack. Really isn't that great of a move otherwise. Isn't bad, but way out-classed by the other two options.
2. Helicopter Kick - 9/10 - This is a really cool move that can be controlled pretty well horizontally and can be used in many situations. Is a powerful kill move. Extremely good combo finisher. You will get to know DThrow -> FAir or UAir -> Helicopter Kick very well. Spaces well. Good priority, which helps it as a horizontal and (very slight) vertical recovery move. This is the Up Special of choice for the most offensive build of a Brawler. Absolutely crushes big characters and characters that struggle offstage/gimping. Lack of good vertical recovery limits recovery approaches, however. Medium-high risk, high reward move.
3. Piston Punch - 9.5/10 - Imagine Little Mac's Rising Uppercut, but with slightly more vertical distance, a lack of Mac's restricted ledge grabbing, and slightly more knockback potential. That's Piston Punch. Excellent combo potential, fast start-up, and offers Brawler vertical recovery AND offensive power. Comboes from UTilt and DThrow tremendously. One-Inch Punch tech gives Brawler the advantage against lighter opponents. Smaller, lighter opponents hate this move. Lack of horizontal control and usefulness of Helicopter Kick in certain match-ups prevents this from being the obvious choice.

• Down Specials

1. Head-On Assault - 7.5/10 - Similar to Yoshi's Ground Pound, but causes a buried state if opponent is hit into the ground. Thus, is a move with a good reward if used correctly. Is a spike if used in the air. DON'T USE OFFSTAGE. If shielded or if missed, can be easily punished. Not a go-to move, but rather a change of pace offensive option. Don't particularly need this move, but can be useful.
2. Feint Jump - 8/10 - Like ZSS's down special. Has some invincibility frames, gives Mii Brawler a semi-third jump. Can hit the attack button mid-jump for a kick attack that can be aimed either left or right. Doesn't automatically hit opponents otherwise, however. A must-have if you're using Helicopter Kick IMO. Always useful to have a third jump regardless. If used correctly, excellent mobility tool that has relatively low recovery time. Takes practice and spacing to optimize.
3. Foot Flurry - 5/10 - Kind of like Wolf's old UpB on the ground. In the air, it doesn't move and hits downward. Really odd move, doesn't pick up opponents during the ground animation well, and isn't safe enough in the air. Generally inferior to Onslaught if you're using that. At least it stops momentum if used in the air, so works as an anti-anti-air. Not great and is situational.

Characters I Think Mii Brawler Struggles With
(in no particular order)

I can provide more opinions on why these seven give Brawler the most trouble as well, but this post is already tl;dr as it is, so...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Although it does suck for Jigglypuff if she gets grabbed on any battlefield platform against Mario, I think since vectoring is gone, U-Throw into Dair into a properly spaced Up+B that hits on a few certain frames can top blast-zone her.....

It's silly but probably easily avoidable with an airdodge.

Also I don't think Mii Brawler is top half, I can see him in the middle, pseudo high end. He's solid for sure, I think Gunner is the best of the three but Swordsman is just butt tier.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Rest isn't a read based move, well its not supposed to be anyway. Sure you can rest roll reads and stuff but that's not the main reason its good. It is good because it is reaction based and able to be used when its guaranteed to hit, like after an uair, utilt, fair/bair or when your opponent misspaces a move. It is guaranteed in those cases. You can't do this with most if not any of the other moves in the game with the same reward, its not even close, barring maybe Warios down B, which is weaker in most cases I think.

Also you do know that her back air is stronger than her Fsmash right? Its stronger than Sonics, Falcons, Samus back air for sure, those are the ones I know of anyway but I'm having trouble thinking of a character with a stronger one that isn't a heavyweight, even then...

Also Kirbys aerials are so inferior to Puffs its not even a contest at all. Falco? I don't know enough of to reliably comment on it, but from what I've seen and heard there's no way.

In Kirbys defense the moves themselves aren't bad he's just too slow to utilize them. If Kirby had Puffs Air speed his aerial game would be on par with what I'd say I'd call better vertical threat, but alas...


I think Gunner and Brawler occupy the same "space" just a different tone. Brawler is getting praised now that he's had appearances but I feel like Gunner has more options, he's just not as lethal, and his playstyle doesn't translate to rushdown which is the most popular style of play.

If Brawler is mid though, then wtf is mid? Falcon and Fox? cus thats brawler level to me.

 

[NairWizard]

Jigglypuff has one and only one problem imo: she is incredibly light, and by a huge margin. I've seen her die at hilariously low percents.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

If we're talking Melee Falco's aerials (in the context of this discussion, we might be? I'm lost) then no, Dair is not bad at all lmfao.

I think Jiggs is good in Sm4sh but the low shieldstun makes her gameplan a good deal less reliable in a sense due to the low as hell shieldstun, meaning she has to space perfectly to not get shieldgrabbed, and since she works best close where opponents have to respect her aerials, it's a lot riskier here. I mean, still a solid character by virtue of offstage pressure and ok on-stage. I can see use in situations.

Yes, this is true.

Also, idek what we're talking about anymore... We keep on going between Smash 4 and Melee without saying when we're going in and out...

Falco Dair in Melee is super janky and amazing, while here its... bad :[

But yes, the engine, while nice to jiggs, isn't perfect. Shieldstun is a bit of a problem. Nair is still really good at getting around this though.

Jigglypuff has one and only one problem imo: she is incredibly light, and by a huge margin. I've seen her die at hilariously low percents.

It's a double edged sword. Less comboing for easier death. Its a trade off. At least her frame is small.

 

[ZHMT]

Even with the games 7 frame shield drop and low shieldstun, Jiggs aerials are still safe with a huge risk reward ratio in her favor on some. The landing lag means you can't land nearby them after hitting their shield, that's all.

I didn't know he was referring to Melee Falcos aerials because I'm not talking about Melee. Some of Melee Falcos aerials are obviously great. I'm talking about ssb4. I'm not talking about PM either, Ivysaur outranges Jiggs in PM with bair and Mewtwo outranges her as well, easily. However, moves like Ivysaurs bair are so janky and designed poorly imo. I don't like PM personally for that reason, the game doesn't feel like Smash at all to me.

Point is, I can edit hitbox radius values in a fighter too and make them outrange Metaknight in Brawl, I can make them transended too. Because something loses to something stupid doesn't make the losing move bad. I'm not referring to anything but ssb4 now.

 

[ZHMT]

Jigglypuff has one and only one problem imo: she is incredibly light, and by a huge margin. I've seen her die at hilariously low percents.

Yep, that combined with her slow fast fall speed vs vertical ko moves. The blastzones seem smaller on average in the Wiiu version as well. As much as this is an issue, she's also fairly good at avoiding ko moves landing on her.

(The following isn't really directed towards any one person)

Heavies live longer but are usually easier to hit with ko moves etc. I do find Ness Bthrow rather good vs Jigglypuff. Hpwever characters like Diddy can try to dthrow to uair and you can often just hold up and away and its no longer a follow up.

Being light has perks too, and she's been this way in the past games. This is just another dimention to this one dimentional character.

 

[Jabejazz]

I feel shield is another problem for Jiggs.

As in, she has minimal answers to it.
I shouldn't be scared of liberally using my shield as long as I'm wary of her Pound. Pounding a full shield is a free grab anyway.

And her grab game really isn't scary.

 

[NairWizard]

Shield is an issue if she's in the air because all aerials can be shielded. But her ground game is actually not bad in this iteration due to jab being pretty good (and her tilts are also not bad). She doesn't have to approach through the air. She can just walk back and forth on the ground and take to the air only when she's in danger/when she pleases. So the threat of a grab is always there vs. shields--I wouldn't say that shields are too horrible for her.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I feel shield is another problem for Jiggs.

As in, she has minimal answers to it.
I shouldn't be scared of liberally using my shield as long as I'm wary of her Pound. Pounding a full shield is a free grab anyway.

And her grab game really isn't scary.

I have had my shield broken by pound when it was insanely healthy

 

[Jabejazz]

So the threat of a grab is always there vs. shields--I wouldn't say that shields are too horrible for her.

Except the grab itself isn't threatening in a lot of cases, unless you're on the edge and depending on your character, she can probably set up her edgeguard, but the grab itself yields poor rewards. Often, it's a mere reset.
I did underestimate her ground game however.

I have had my shield broken by pound when it was insanely healthy

Color me surprised.

 

[scalpel]

Is Palutena a competitive pick? Her cqc seems lackluster even with her high priority jab and grab range. She has no "get away from me" attacks like Luigi's nair that immediately break enemy rushdown pressure/juggles. You would think her counter would be good for this, but no it has a deceptively long cast time followed by an unparalleled long after delay. It cannot be used while being juggled.

Even on a moveset level, is default Palutena even decent? What makes her reflect better than the other reflects in the game? What are her options versus rushdown opponents?

 

[NairWizard]

Except the grab itself isn't threatening in a lot of cases, unless you're on the edge and depending on your character, she can probably set up her edgeguard, but the grab itself yields poor rewards. Often, it's a mere reset..

The grab isn't threatening, but getting thrown into the air against Jigglypuff is absolutely terrifying. Up-air to Rest is disgusting.

 

[ZHMT]

Pound does over 60% of a shields health. One fresh back air does 26% of a shields health.

Jigglypuff has positional based throws, if she can't get you offstage, she can get you above her where she likely has better air speed than you and has a chance to juggle. She can't directly KO with grabs, we know this. I understand not being afraid of her grabs but it leads to a situation people should be afraid of.

I wouldn't call 3.1% pummels, 10% throws, and stage control poor rewards. Her grab is also relatively safe, as most are.

 

[NairWizard]

Is Palutena a competitive pick? Her cqc seems lackluster even with her high priority jab and grab range. She has no "get away from me" attacks like Luigi's nair that immediately break enemy rushdown pressure/juggles. You would think her counter would be good for this, but no it has a deceptively long cast time followed by an unparalleled long after delay. It cannot be used while being juggled.

Even on a moveset level, is default Palutena even decent? What makes her reflect better than the other reflects in the game?

My evaluation of Palutena from earlier in this thread:

Default Palutena...

• escapes with ease from juggles and edgeguards due to Warp.
• KOs early due to multiple kill setups (not guaranteed): jab to f-smash, d-throw to up-air, [any move that launches vertically] to an up-air or up-smash read, and [any move that launches horizontally] to an invincible b-air
• out-projectile-camps everyone due to Reflect Barrier+Autoreticle. Autoreticle is only subpar because it needs to be subpar--if Palutena actually were to have a decent projectile (such as Fox laser or Pit arrows), she would be very OP, but as it stands there really isn't a projectile-based character who can just fire projectiles at Palutena for free
• stacks damage quickly due to d-throw and jab followups, with her grab having more reach than most other grabs and her jab having disjoint and speed

That's quite a (unique) list to recommend her! She's better than Bottom, Mid, and much of High Tier imo due to these qualities.

She isn't in Top Tier without customs though. *With* customs, she can trade in the ability to escape from juggles and edgeguards or the ability to outcamp projectile characters for better approaching options and easier KOs.

She's very good with customs, at the tippy top of Top Tier from what I can tell. There isn't a single matchup that she can't patch with a custom set--trouble with Fox? Equip Jump Glide, Super Speed, and Lightweight and approach through his lasers and KO him easily. Trouble with Duck Hunt? Equip Autoreticle, Reflect Barrier, and Celestial Firework and render his camping game useless. Trouble with Pikachu's edgeguarding? Equip Warp and don't worry about it. And so on. The range of her customs is so vast that it encompasses every possible character archetype and playstyle (Heavenly Light is useless, but every other move has at least niche use in a matchup). I also think that she's the best Doubles character for the same reason: she can shut down entire Doubles strats with the correct custom set.

Additional thoughts:

-On terminology, her jab is low priority, not high priority, because it doesn't do 9% or more damage against any other attack (since it does less than 9). But it is disjointed and fast, and leads to followups.
-Reflect Barrier is better than other reflectors because it moves away from her body, and the surface area is huge, so it's quite safe to use against Megaman, etc., without sacrificing stage control. It isn't super laggy like Pit's/Dark Pit's either.
-Lack of n-air interrupt is one of her weaknesses, but Warp allows you to escape many other dangerous situations. Super Speed too.

 

[Terotrous]

Realistically, most characters that get their shield broken are going to be KOd anyway.

There's some truth to this, a shield break is generally comparable to a whiffed rest in that you're going to take that character's maximum punish, which will generally kill around 70% for most of the cast (and probably 50-60% on Jiggs). Of course, a shield break will kill Jiggs at 0%.

Also this game doesn't have enough shieldstun to do shield break combos and the shield damage over time by holding it isn't high, I don't see where the shield breaks are happening.

Shield breaks are definitely more common in Smash 4, likely because shield damage is either higher or shield health is less. There are definitely situations now where you shield 1-2 aerials and are at risk of a break from a strong attack. For example, if you shield one aerial from Kirby and then shield Stone, you may get shield broken if it hits twice. This means that all characters have to be more wary of using their shield, but Jiggs in particular.

Lots of aerial stuff

I think you're generally ignoring the good properties of a lot of those moves. For example, you just point out that Yoshi Dair is riskier than Puff Dair. This is true, but it also hits way harder and eats shields much better. If an opponent's shield has even moderate damage a dair puts them at risk of a shield break, and it can be done high enough to complete before it hits the ground. Puff's Dair is definitely better in some situations, but I think the added variety that Yoshi has is an asset. He still has the tools to juggle, poke, and break combos (and everything else you use a sex kick for), plus a useful spike and a huge damage dealer. Puff isn't that flexible.


And yes I meant Melee spacies. I was comparing them against Melee Puff originally, though Puff really hasn't changed too much between games.

Why does this matter at all? I see no point at all in this as it all comes together for her overall aerial game. I really don't see what you're getting at.

It's all really about versatility, as above. Puff has a bunch of moves that deal some damage if she gets close, but she doesn't really have what I would consider a lot of utility aerials. No spike, nothing that does huge damage or demolishes shields, no transcendent hitboxes / weird projectile aerials / other weird stuff, they're basically all just pokes and juggles.

Except they don't have similar usage? Dair, Bair, Nair, and UpAir are all very different and serve very different purposes. Bair and Fair are more similar, but both are very good. Nair and Bair are both great spacing tools, but Bair is more for straight up poking than Nair is, and Nair is more of keep away due to its hitbox being out for forever.

Dair is a good shield poke and move to attack with from above. I don't see how your opponent is going to poke you when their shield is being drilled? Puff can just leave after her Dair... it really is that easy

Generally the idea is to challenge before Jiggs gets close enough to do Dair. You shouldn't ever be letting her get that close if you have any solid disjoints, forcing her to try to poke it out with Bair instead.


[quote[Puff players shouldn't be fishing for Rest. She can already do enough with her aerials that she shouldn't need to Rest. However, if the opposing player screws up enough to allow for the Rest, go for it.[/quote]
I agree, but unfortunately Rest is such a powerful option that they kind of have to make the rest of Jiggs a bit lackluster to make up for it. Unfortunately, as you said, you can't really base your whole gameplan around it, it just isn't reliable enough.

 

[ZHMT]

I think the shield health is the same as Brawl but Brawl had a 0.7x multiplier on attacks damage output. This means the shields have less health in practice, from about 71/72 to 50. However the shield reduction over use is a lot more draining in Brawl so it may cancel out a little. Especially because bonus shield damage never used the multiplier in Brawl. Meaning Pounds shield damage bonus of 20 still did 20 shield damage in Brawl, not 14.

Bom-ombs do 26% damage and two of them break a shield.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

There's some truth to this, a shield break is generally comparable to a whiffed rest in that you're going to take that character's maximum punish, which will generally kill around 70% for most of the cast (and probably 50-60% on Jiggs). Of course, a shield break will kill Jiggs at 0%.

Yeah, I know. But like, you better be damn sure you're hitting that Rest. There's a reason whiffs don't happen too often.

It's also worth nothing that Jigg's has a bulky shield for her size/weight, but that doesn't matter.

Shield breaks are definitely more common in Smash 4, likely because shield damage is either higher or shield health is less. There are definitely situations now where you shield 1-2 aerials and are at risk of a break from a strong attack. For example, if you shield one aerial from Kirby and then shield Stone, you may get shield broken if it hits twice. This means that all characters have to be more wary of using their shield, but Jiggs in particular.

The only one's I've seen so far are people shielding Shield Breaker from Marth, and only tippers. And those are all on wifi where there's lag. Shield breaks are still really uncommon.

I think you're generally ignoring the good properties of a lot of those moves. For example, you just point out that Yoshi Dair is riskier than Puff Dair. This is true, but it also hits way harder and eats shields much better. If an opponent's shield has even moderate damage a dair puts them at risk of a shield break, and it can be done high enough to complete before it hits the ground. Puff's Dair is definitely better in some situations, but I think the added variety that Yoshi has is an asset.

Yoshi Dair does eat shields more. However, that doesn't mean much because his Dair isn't safe on block, or at least against a healthy shield. If they have enough to stomach the blow (which is not that big of a demand), then you'll get punished during your landing lag as Yoshi. But yes, Yoshi puts more shield pressure, at a much greater risk.

He still has the tools to juggle, poke, and break combos (and everything else you use a sex kick for), plus a useful spike and a huge damage dealer. Puff isn't that flexible.

Yes, I agree. Yoshi is a very good character. Very fluid, has great potential, etc. That's why I main him. All I'm saying is that Puff can do a lot.

Also, I don't think Fair's meteor is good. Dair's is sometimes good for offstage kills, but fair's is not something I'm fond of.

And yes I meant Melee spacies. I was comparing them against Melee Puff originally, though Puff really hasn't changed too much between games.

As someone who plays Melee Falco as a main and a little (like 1/100th of my Falco time) of Puff, Puff definitely has a better aerial game. That's not to say Falco's is bad (It's one of the best), but that Puff's is better.

It's all really about versatility, as above. Puff has a bunch of moves that deal some damage if she gets close, but she doesn't really have what I would consider a lot of utility aerials. No spike, nothing that does huge damage or demolishes shields, no transcendent hitboxes / weird projectile aerials / other weird stuff, they're basically all just pokes and juggles.

Puff doesn't really need a spike when her edgeguard game is so good. Nair has a lot of utility. Fair and bair have some, of course. Hell, even Dair does. There's also Pound which we all know is an insane move. Pound does a bunch of shield damage, what are you talking about? Pound also has an amazing high priority hitbox. It's such an oddity of a move. Up air has a great disjoint. Bair's range is really awesome. All her aerials except for weak nair do a lot of damage and well... it's weak nair. What do you expect?

Generally the idea is to challenge before Jiggs gets close enough to do Dair. You shouldn't ever be letting her get that close if you have any solid disjoints, forcing her to try to poke it out with Bair instead.

Dair has a pretty long reach. You'll need to have a sword or 64 Kirby Up Tilt to outrange it. She won't be approaching with it, so I mean... yeah.

I agree, but unfortunately Rest is such a powerful option that they kind of have to make the rest of Jiggs a bit lackluster to make up for it. Unfortunately, as you said, you can't really base your whole gameplan around it, it just isn't reliable enough.

Can you rephrase the first part? Idk what you mean there. And yeah, Rest is an option first and foremost. Not a gameplan.

 

[Nobie]

With Pound doing a ton of damage to Shields in Smash 4, are Jigglypuff mirror matches just extra dangerous?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is there a formula for shield stun in Smash 4 yet?

With Pound doing a ton of damage to Shields in Smash 4, are Jigglypuff mirror matches just extra dangerous?

Just resort to roll spam.
Its cruise control for cool.

 

[rd1023]

Can anyone give me the consensus on Link so far? I've seen very different opinions of him, I only played a few matches but he seems upper mid tier to me?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

With Pound doing a ton of damage to Shields in Smash 4, are Jigglypuff mirror matches just extra dangerous?

Sadly, the Puff ditto is still terribly slow and boring....

Also Marth dittos on Wi-Fi are hell.... Counter4Daze...

 

[scalpel]

Default Palutena...

• escapes with ease from juggles and edgeguards due to Warp.
• KOs early due to multiple kill setups (not guaranteed): jab to f-smash, d-throw to up-air, [any move that launches vertically] to an up-air or up-smash read, and [any move that launches horizontally] to an invincible b-air
• out-projectile-camps everyone due to Reflect Barrier+Autoreticle. Autoreticle is only subpar because it needs to be subpar--if Palutena actually were to have a decent projectile (such as Fox laser or Pit arrows), she would be very OP, but as it stands there really isn't a projectile-based character who can just fire projectiles at Palutena for free
• stacks damage quickly due to d-throw and jab followups, with her grab having more reach than most other grabs and her jab having disjoint and speed

Can opponents DI away from Palutena's follow-up after a down throw, or does the opponent always get launched a set distance and direction that cannot be influenced by player input?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Can anyone give me the consensus on Link so far? I've seen very different opinions of him, I only played a few matches but he seems upper mid tier to me?

watch the latest kstar tourny and see keitaro go at it. link is high teir if any thing.

Can opponents DI away from Palutena's follow-up after a down throw, or does the opponent always get launched a set distance and direction that cannot be influenced by player input?

you can di but its areliable low percent combo garenteed to hit wit minimal tech chase.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Can anyone give me the consensus on Link so far? I've seen very different opinions of him, I only played a few matches but he seems upper mid tier to me?

His bomb game got nerfed in the recent patch, but his range and speed got buffed from previous games. His new dash attack is a bit slow but amazing, basically a slower moving Marth f-smash, even has a sweetspot at the tip of the blade.

Still slow compared to the others in the cast, just not sloth slow like he was in previous games. Arguably, I think he's up there in the top 20 in this game.

 

[Yonder]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/592822158

Boss wins a fairly big tournament with Luigi. [And shows a jumpless cyclone is possible]

Mr Concon wins a giant reddit tournament with Luigi.

Semi chain grab discovered for Luigi.

Is he out of Low tier yet?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Boss wins a fairly big tournament with Luigi. [And shows a jumpless cyclone is possible]

Mr Concon wins a giant reddit tournament with Luigi.

Is he out of Low tier yet?

TBH I think he's mid-low still. He's a good character in this game (most are) but some of his flaws are still definitely evident. Not outright low tier though.

For the record I am one of the few who never thought of Luigi as bad in this game (his D-Throw is legitimately stupid and it really makes getting caught by him hurt)! I'm surprised it took a tournament win to convince people otherwise, guess I'll be waiting for my main to win a tournament or even place, because I really don't think my main man is bottom 10 especially not with vectoring gone now ;3

 

[NairWizard]

Can opponents DI away from Palutena's follow-up after a down throw, or does the opponent always get launched a set distance and direction that cannot be influenced by player input?

The opponent can DI, but with the removal of vectoring it's a bit tougher to escape vertically at least. D-throw -> n-air is not reliable at higher percents, but d-throw -> f-air seems to work almost always, and you can mix up d-throw -> up-smash or d-throw -> b-air or d-throw -> up-air, which keeps your opponent guessing.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/592822158

Boss wins a fairly big tournament with Luigi. [And shows a jumpless cyclone is possible]

Mr Concon wins a giant reddit tournament with Luigi.

Semi chain grab discovered for Luigi.

Is he out of Low tier yet?

No-one's in low tier; no proper tiers have been created yet. What would ideally change is the feeling of not needing to respect what he can do because he was supposedly weak based on first impressions.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Two of the best players I've ever seen at an /r/smshbros tournament. Mr. ConCon (winner of our release West Coast Event) vs Kodystri (winner of the East Coast release tournament). We're going to slowly be loading up the rest of the Luigi videos guys, but watch how epic this is.

 

[ZHMT]

Puff dittos are weird because Rest KOs Puff at at 37% without any rage bonus. Then you have to deal with star ko stuff regarding a rest punish coming right back if it'll ko. You can uair to rest Puff at like 23 before the uair hit and she gets KOd off the top.

Also Puff vs Yoshis dair, Jiggs can drop shield and buffer rest towards the end of the dair and rest him for free.