Character Competitive Impressions

[Locke 06]

Jumpless cyclone is enormous and will change a lot of opinions on Luigi. Sure changed mine.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Really? You can EASILY just Green Missile first, DJ into Cyclone.

If you couldn't do it jumpless before that's fine. People made that nerf or change out to be way worse than what it actually was. All you have to do is mix up the recovery if you can't mash like Boss.

 

[Locke 06]

DJ into cyclone is linear and predictable. Jumpless cyclone is essentially a 3rd jump usable whenever you want. Now you can cyclone, green missile, DJ, up-B. You have many more recovery mixups, as well as the ability to not die after getting hit from a ledge drop DJ.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh it's definitely good but I mean, it wasn't that bad to begin with IMO. Certainly lackluster but that's the story of Luigi's recovery for 2 of 4 games now.

This is gonna equal sore thumbs for Luigi players tho LOL

 

[Asdioh]

Jumpless cyclone is enormous and will change a lot of opinions on Luigi. Sure changed mine.

Really? You can EASILY just Green Missile first, DJ into Cyclone.

If you couldn't do it jumpless before that's fine. People made that nerf or change out to be way worse than what it actually was. All you have to do is mix up the recovery if you can't mash like Boss.

What are you talking about? I vaguely remember something about Luigi needing to do something specific with his Cyclone before he can recover with it, but I don't remember.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He had to charge it onstage in Melee before he could use it. Believe me, it was at its ABSOLUTE WORST in that game. Not only did he have to onstage charge it, it was really hard to mash for optimally even after that lol.

By charge I mean use Cyclone on the ground on-stage. Then it would magically work. I have no idea why this was programmed in or why it works the way it does.

 

[Kofu]

@ TTTTTsd , @ Y Yonder ,if Luigi isn't low tier, then who's he better than? Assuming there are five tiers (top, high, mid, low, bottom that's my paradigm, anyway), that's about 10 characters in each tier (I know it doesn't work out perfectly like this; it's just for sake of discussion). Can you name 10-15 characters that Luigi is better than? I don't think that being low tier means as much in this game than in previous games, tbh. Luigi is legitimately scare once he gets in, I admit that.

Just a thought. If you can't name that many characters better than him, he might still be that low, but it's not necesaarily a consignment to insignificance.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People are being thrown off by how good the balance is in this game tbh

OMG LUIGI IS SO GOOD

Yeah he's pretty good, so are ganon and link

 

[TTTTTsd]

I suppose that's the best way of putting it.

This game's roster seems pretty good.

 

[Yonder]

@ TTTTTsd , @ Y Yonder ,if Luigi isn't low tier, then who's he better than? Assuming there are five tiers (top, high, mid, low, bottom that's my paradigm, anyway), that's about 10 characters in each tier (I know it doesn't work out perfectly like this; it's just for sake of discussion). Can you name 10-15 characters that Luigi is better than? I don't think that being low tier means as much in this game than in previous games, tbh. Luigi is legitimately scare once he gets in, I admit that.

Just a thought. If you can't name that many characters better than him, he might still be that low, but it's not necesaarily a consignment to insignificance.

Let's see here:

Olimar
Palutena [Default]
Doc Mario
DK
Charizard
DDD
Zelda
Kirby
Ganondorf
Falco
WFT
Mii Gunner
Mii Swordsman
Mega Man


14 is pretty good. I would settle for anywhere in mid. Even the bottom position. I just think his combos and buffs thanks to the latest patch along with recent tourney results and AT discoveries for him are too much to ignore.

And yes, I agree the game is well balanced. Aside from Doc and Olimar, no one else stands out as "horrible" to me.

 

[Shaya]

@ TTTTTsd , @ Y Yonder ,if Luigi isn't low tier, then who's he better than? Assuming there are five tiers (top, high, mid, low, bottom that's my paradigm, anyway), that's about 10 characters in each tier (I know it doesn't work out perfectly like this; it's just for sake of discussion). Can you name 10-15 characters that Luigi is better than? I don't think that being low tier means as much in this game than in previous games, tbh. Luigi is legitimately scare once he gets in, I admit that.

Just a thought. If you can't name that many characters better than him, he might still be that low, but it's not necesaarily a consignment to insignificance.

maybe:

Inb4 the bowser jrs/wiifits (insert your favourite character here) players come to yell at me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IDK about Mario, Doc I see as worse than Luigi but that leaves me at a loss as for where to put Doc on the full list (can't see him in bottom 10 tbh with the vectoring change)....the other ones I agree with. @ Shaya

But yeah that seems about right.

If my predictions on Doc are correct as of the newest patch with Vectoring gone, that would stick Luigi in...mid tiers with Doc being low not bottom, and Mario being "I have no clue yet" tier. Seems accurate.

 

[Yonder]

maybe:

Inb4 the bowser jrs/wiifits (insert your favourite character here) players come to yell at me.

Our list is so dang close it's crazy. I would actually agree with maybe on Game and Watch [His edgeguarding and improved ground speed and attacks overall make me iffy...he's my secondary btw]. And idk anything about BJ cause I never seem them online. Not sure about Samus, I think MK is a tad better thanks to the recent patch and his still amazing recovery and edgeguarding skills are great. Everything else about him sucks though lol. Mario I think is a hair better for overall more movement speed and balanced [not as hot and cold as Luigi].

 

[KlefkiHolder]

maybe:

Inb4 the bowser jrs/wiifits (insert your favourite character here) players come to yell at me.

I swear this won't be yelling or anything... lol

Can you explain Zard a little bit? I think he's actually quite decent with nice tilts, run speed, Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz, Rock Smash, and good aerials in fair and nair. Up air as well. Also, the custom up B that kills super early is a pretty good OoS option. His Smashes are a little lacking, but F Smash kills early and has some nice armor, and Up Smash seems to be decent anti-air.

I don't have too much experience with him, though. These are just basic impressions. Just trying to get some clarification.

 

[NairWizard]

Let's see here:

Olimar
Palutena [Default]
Doc Mario
DK
Charizard
DDD
Zelda
Kirby
Ganondorf
Falco
WFT
Mii Gunner
Mii Swordsman
Mega Man


14 is pretty good. I would settle for anywhere in mid. Even the bottom position. I just think his combos and buffs thanks to the latest patch along with recent tourney results and AT discoveries for him are too much to ignore.

And yes, I agree the game is well balanced. Aside from Doc and Olimar, no one else stands out as "horrible" to me.

Super disagree on Falco and Default Palutena (both are High/Upper Mid for sure, with Falco possibly being at the edge of Top; what the heck is Falco doing on this list as one of the best characters in the game ?_?).
Minorly disagree with Megaman and Mii Gunner (both significantly better than Luigi imo).
Rest of this list seems solid.

 

[Asdioh]

Top tier:
High tier:
Mid tier:

And that's it. There is no "low" or "bottom" tier in this game, now everyone will be satisfied.
I'm only slightly joking, this is how I see it happening, or at least this is how close I'm hoping the balance actually is.

Super disagree on Falco and Default Palutena (both are High/Upper Mid for sure, with Falco possibly being at the edge of Top; what the heck is Falco doing on this list as one of the best characters in the game ?_?).

I always hear "Falco is bad in this game" and I've personally never seen a good Falco. Do you know of any videos to show me?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well @ Asdioh I'm inclined to agree on that sorting of the tier list. REALISTICALLY SPEAKING no character has been proven to like, be downright unwinnable with. Even Olimar who I slept on can snatch wins thanks to improvements (I'm sorry bro I didn't mean it)

Even Doc has players who place decently, I think M@v has won stuff with doc (and assistance from secondaries.) Nobody seems impossible.

 

[NairWizard]

Top tier:
High tier:
Mid tier:

And that's it. There is no "low" or "bottom" tier in this game, now everyone will be satisfied.
I'm only slightly joking, this is how I see it happening, or at least this is how close I'm hoping the balance actually is.

I always hear "Falco is bad in this game" and I've personally never seen a good Falco. Do you know of any videos to show me?

No videos on hand, so you'll have to accept the theory or play me online

Void Reflector is the most terrifying mid-range attack in the game; chews through both attacks and projectiles.
Jab and f-tilt are kings of footsies, and all of Falco's grounded normals basically set him up for a kill or edgeguard.
B-air is the truth, and you can space it on shields.
He does a ton of damage with his tilts, and lasers were buffed in the most recent patch (they were already semi-decent used on the ground, but are outright decent now). Combined with reflector, lasers mean that it's very tough to camp Falco, and his CQC is fantastic.

edit: I suppose terrifying is a word best reserved for Ganon's f-smash, but Void Reflector is still super frustrating at the least

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Void Reflector is only better in specific MUs HONESTLY. It's GREAT for Villager since he has Pocket so you can omit that counterplay entirely, but I'd prefer reflection in most other cases because you can occasionally trip people and I think you can squeeze more damage out.

Void is DEF great for Villager though.

 

[Shaya]

I swear this won't be yelling or anything... lol

Can you explain Zard a little bit? I think he's actually quite decent with nice tilts, run speed, Dragon Rush/Flare Blitz, Rock Smash, and good aerials in fair and nair. Up air as well. Also, the custom up B that kills super early is a pretty good OoS option. His Smashes are a little lacking, but F Smash kills early and has some nice armor, and Up Smash seems to be decent anti-air.

I don't have too much experience with him, though. These are just basic impressions. Just trying to get some clarification.

You obviously weren't yelling :D

Well, I think those maybes are characters able to be applied at high level pretty well right now. Zard has results, he's good/usable for sure. I don't think Zard's some mystery high/top tier though, but rather any mid tier should be able to win tournaments in a balanced-ish game, and we're kinda seeing good results from Zard, Luigi, Ganon and kinda Megaman/DK (DK with customs I guess :\). MK is feeling a lot more worth learning right now with the neutral air and back air changes, I accidentally wrote a huge paragraph here in ramblings about him but that's straying too far from the point !_! Anyway I also rate G&W for some individual match ups towards top and being fairly underrated early in the meta considering.

Re: Falco

I think Void Reflector is almost better in every match up. I genuinely never get anything out of the trips, the move is way too laggy for that. I hate it forcing people into the ground when Falco is goat at basketball and hence not a soccer player. Otherwise reflecting is mostly only useful against horizontal only projectiles, and also many projectiles having max distances traveled often forcing reflected things to not even travel far enough back to do 'punish'. Void Reflector is THE transcended priority 3 swords length 9% (that beats most heavy armor) poke that knocks people straight up. It's an extremely dumb move that I think almost every character in the cast would be willing to trade a special for.

 

[NairWizard]

I think Void Reflector is only better in specific MUs HONESTLY. It's GREAT for Villager since he has Pocket so you can omit that counterplay entirely, but I'd prefer reflection in most other cases because you can occasionally trip people and I think you can squeeze more damage out.

Void is DEF great for Villager though.

Void Reflector is notably better in most matchups I think; it does 9% damage and can actually KO off the top/offstage. It's also fantastic vs. Luma.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Really? I haven't had a chance to USE it a whole lot (gotta unlock it I can only run off of what I've been told it does). I didn't know about increased damage and KO POTENTIAL LMFAO.

I imagine it is good against Luma, does it eat it? (I only ask cuz I have Falco as a secondary ever since GC controller because **** playing him on 3DS lol)

 

[Thinkaman]

I dunno, Void Reflector is a pretty S-rank move.

The only entity Void Reflector "eats" is Pac-Man hydrant. It does not eat DHD stuff or Phantom.

It used to eat Villager tree, but this was fixed in the patch.

That said, it's a brutal anti-Luma move. OHKOs are common.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You obviously weren't yelling :D

Well, I think those maybes are characters able to be applied at high level pretty well right now. Zard has results, he's good/usable for sure. I don't think Zard's some mystery high/top tier though, but rather any mid tier should be able to win tournaments in a balanced-ish game, and we're kinda seeing good results from Zard, Luigi, Ganon and kinda Megaman/DK (DK with customs I guess :\). MK is feeling a lot more worth learning right now with the neutral air and back air changes, I accidentally wrote a huge paragraph here in ramblings about him but that's straying too far from the point !_! Anyway I also rate G&W for some individual match ups towards top and being fairly underrated early in the meta considering.

Ah ok. That makes sense.

Also Mega Man did pretty well at KTAR, with Chillin finishing top 16 IIRC, and Zucco finishing 4th, taking a set off of M2K, taking him to Game 3 in another, and taking Dabuz to Game 3 as well.

Also, I think Will finished top 8 there with DK w/o customs as well. I'd have to check on that, but I know it was top 16 at least.

 

[NairWizard]

Really? I haven't had a chance to USE it a whole lot (gotta unlock it I can only run off of what I've been told it does). I didn't know about increased damage and KO POTENTIAL LMFAO.

I imagine it is good against Luma, does it eat it?

No, but it knocks Luma UP, which gives you a great opportunity to go ham while Luma is in tumble.

It has a larger hitbox than normal reflector too, so Luma can't avoid it.

And yep, you are never safe against Falco in the air with Void Reflector. If you get too close he'll n-air or drag-down-f-air. If you aren't that close he'll Void Reflector you. Falco's jump height is the best in the game so you can actually chase people into the air and do nothing, and they will airdodge to avoid Void Reflector, only to get hit by something else. Or they will DI toward the ledge and give you positional advantage. It's pretty great.

 

[Nobie]

Honest question: What is it about this game that it appears to be quite well-balanced to the point that all characters seem viable?

For past games this was more wishful thinking than anything else (Mew2King long ago wrote a post about why Mewtwo in Melee is really good because of teleport). Is something different about the approach taken to Smash 4, whether in universal concepts or specific implementations (more super armor to heavies) that makes "THERE ARE NO LOW TIERS" (semantics aside) feel like more than just a far-off dream?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well, for starters most of the stuff cast members can do is pretty grounded even for top tiers. There's not a lot of crazy over the top stuff that can be done in say, other smash games. Chaingrabbing is gone, recovery is easier across the board and edgehogging is gone completely.

Really the system and core design is a lot more grounded and simple which makes even weaker characters able to do SOMETHING thanks to...well, simplicity.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Honest question: What is it about this game that it appears to be quite well-balanced to the point that all characters seem viable?

For past games this was more wishful thinking than anything else (Mew2King long ago wrote a post about why Mewtwo in Melee is really good because of teleport). Is something different about the approach taken to Smash 4, whether in universal concepts or specific implementations (more super armor to heavies) that makes "THERE ARE NO LOW TIERS" (semantics aside) feel like more than just a far-off dream?

Namco Bandai actually specializes in making fighting games unlike HAL and the assortment of dev teams that made Brawl, so they know how to balance them pretty well.

 

[HeroMystic]

Honest question: What is it about this game that it appears to be quite well-balanced to the point that all characters seem viable?

Right now, I feel it's because it's a new game and counter-strategies for all characters have not been developed yet. When that appears, the game will begin having "low tiers" just like any other game.

Honestly though, this game does feel to have a better balance than the predecessors, and I'm betting that's because Sakurai actually has help in balancing the characters this time around.

 

[Shaya]

Honest question: What is it about this game that it appears to be quite well-balanced to the point that all characters seem viable?

Right now the abusive characters are Rosalina and characters with fantastic grab games (and safe aerial games)
Otherwise most characters are relatively matched up overall in capabilities, some likely having better match ups overall but nothing insurmountable.

The fact is though, that there is abuse in this game that most characters cannot deal with. Customs brings in moves which aren't universally broken but can shut down characters in abusive ways; patching up customless issues but bringing in new ones. If Diddy is to remain unnerfed (we're all assuming this won't be the case), there really is only a select few characters who have reward/risk that can combat that, and they're all in the "great grab games, safe aerials" pit for the most part as well, even if they aren't universally winning match ups like Diddy. Shifting of focus and we'll start seeing a stark contrast in character's able to keep up with the most powerful overtuned options. Kinda hypothetical, but I do remember the early Brawl days "if it wasn't for X/Y/Z characters, this game would practically be perfectly balanced". It's definitely a tone down from Brawl, but who knows how the meta will go, it tends to always go the same way though, no matter what people thought of the balance.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The best conclusion I can come to is that while the lower tiers are obviously going to struggle, I think it's FAR from the struggle they would've had being placed in any other game

@ Shaya pretty much nailed it honestly, and even then the "abusive" chars are definitely still beatable and can be fought by the lower end, not to an advantage but it's possible.

The game is fundamentally simpler and toned down from Brawl mechanics wise and it shows. While it leads to a game with a smaller pool of options on paper (not meta-wise, the options are LIMITLESS in meta obviously), this pool of options benefits more characters overall.

In summary, less complex and less overall means more for a larger cast due to a less rigid playing field of requirements.

 

[Asdioh]

Well @ Asdioh Even Doc has players who place decently, I think M@v has won stuff with doc (and assistance from secondaries.) Nobody seems impossible.

The guy who won the tournament I went to last weekend used Doc/Pacman. I managed to record one match against him http://youtu.be/NfRZE0z3tWE
I don't know if he's a bad character, I know the player is better than me (this is the guy who's been top 5 on the nintendodojo ladder for a while) and I know I didn't know the matchup at all, but even if Doc is "bad" he still seems pretty solid.

He does a ton of damage with his tilts, and lasers were buffed in the most recent patch (they were already semi-decent used on the ground, but are outright decent now). Combined with reflector, lasers mean that it's very tough to camp Falco, and his CQC is fantastic.

Interesting, I know this was the case with Brawl Falco. He had great jabs and grab game, and lagless lasers gave him good camping AND approaching options. The fact that these were all nerfed is probably what lead to the stigma of him being bad now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

it tends to always go the same way though, no matter what people thought of the balance.

We can always believe ;_;.
If this game does get continued patching support this might not happen though, I look forward to it.

 

[Thinkaman]

All gameplay parameter proposals are exclusively approved by Sakurai, so he still has complete executive control and responsibility over balance.

The difference is, in additional to the experience gained from Brawl, the balance test team this time is 12 players instead of just 4. It's also been implied that they play more often, and are higher skilled. (The best players on the Namco-based dev team.)

 

[Conda]

The guy who won the tournament I went to last weekend used Doc/Pacman. I managed to record one match against him http://youtu.be/NfRZE0z3tWE
I don't know if he's a bad character, I know the player is better than me (this is the guy who's been top 5 on the nintendodojo ladder for a while) and I know I didn't know the matchup at all, but even if Doc is "bad" he still seems pretty solid.

Interesting, I know this was the case with Brawl Falco. He had great jabs and grab game, and lagless lasers gave him good camping AND approaching options. The fact that these were all nerfed is probably what lead to the stigma of him being bad now.

He's not broken anymore, but a lot of characters aren't. DeDeDe doesn't have his chaingrab stuff from Brawl anymore, and has ranged projectile game nerfed/heavilymodified. But he's still good in his own way. Falco's in the same boat. He has a kit that works well in smash 4, and ends up being a Mario-like all-around character.

 

[HeroMystic]

The best conclusion I can come to is that while the lower tiers are obviously going to struggle, I think it's FAR from the struggle they would've had being placed in any other game.

I'm inclined to agree with this, for now. In Brawl, we found some funky stuff almost immediately (lolSnake), but it isn't the case for Smash 4 as far as I know. However, anyone who is experienced with fighting games know it takes time to conclude how a game will turn out. In Brawl we basically figured it out in a year. I expect there to be the inevitable overused top tiers in a half a year, and the unfortunate realization that my dear Rosalina will be one of them.

The game is fundamentally simpler and toned down from Brawl mechanics wise and it shows. While it leads to a game with a smaller pool of options on paper (not meta-wise, the options are LIMITLESS in meta obviously), this pool of options benefits more characters overall.

In summary, less complex and less overall means more for a larger cast due to a less rigid playing field of requirements.

Smash 4 overall is a game of making the right decisions in a given situation, much like Brawl. The problem with Brawl was this decision-making process was not balanced at all, especially between characters. Powershielding was the answer for almost everything and if you were the character that was forced to approach, you were often the loser (unless you're ICs). Smash 4 balances this by making shield pressure much stronger and placing lag on air dodging towards the ground. It also helps that Powershielding no longer resets your shield to full power.

I think the best part about Smash 4 thus far is it plays similarly to the rules of Street Fighter. You try to get a hit confirm, then once you get it, you get as much damage as possible in before your opponent recovers, and then you have to go at it again. Positional play is also a lot more substantial this time around.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is luigi really that bad? I find him to be pretty good with an iffy recovery.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi is one of the few characters who can ignore the neutral game with fireballs and Down-B. I'd say he's pretty good.

 

[Nabbitnator]

not to mention he has a pretty good combo game to wrack up damage and possibly a reliable combo into up b for a very easy kill. He can make up with the lack of range with retreating fireballs to annoy his opponent too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Luigi ain't ignoring the neutral game. That's simply having some options in said game.

If you want something close to truly ignoring, look at Sonic or maybe Little Mac to some extent.

I also agree with Luigi being a case of getting hype because everyone is relatively balanced. Even in that list Shaya posted, I would put Charizard, MegaMan, MetaKnight, and Bowser Jr. above Luigi in a heartbeat. If customs are turned on, that list grows a tad. Mii Gunner, G&W and Ganondorf without a doubt, DK and Samus as maybes.

Luigi can do some mean damage once he gets in and has some good KOing options that he can combo into... but that's not particularly unique in this game. A lot of characters can claim that. His fireball was buffed which was great, but I don't see it cancelling out his lack of range or traction. (I'm assuming he still has meh air speed but I honestly don't know 100% for sure so I won't count that one). His recovery has a lot of different ways it can be played out which is great, but each individual part is fairly easy to deal with meaning that he can't realistically force his recovery to be safe and has to rely on basically tricking his opponent.