Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

I think it's very interesting that casual players and even a lot of you guys are still putting ZSS in like top 5. Why is that? When I thought she'd received a lot of buffs in the other thread, people were outraged.

From Brawl, a game where ZSS was good but flawed in a lot of ways, she received really very few positive changes. Most of the buffs from Brawl were changes to how her moves work on block and a few bug fixes.

Buffs:
- Jab completes (bug fix)
- up-b no longer a tether (buff in some match-ups, worse in others)
- zair (useless really except during recovery and against very tall characters)
- nair is safe on block
- down-b has more invincibility frames and the arc can be adjusted
- paralyzer can be fired before being fully charged

I might have missed a couple of things, but pretty much everything else was a nerf. Her range is worse, her frame data is worse (jab +1 frame, dtilt +3 frames, uar +2 frames, other stuff) she doesn't start with suit pieces, side-b isn't safe vs fast characters and no longer kills, her damage is worse across the board (fair 12% from 17%, dsmash 8% from 11% and can't be used twice), could go on and on. Her grab is still 16 frames and it might have slightly less recovery but it's still probably the worst in the game. Hey, at least they got rid of the dead zone.

The overall approach to ZSS was that her rewards from low-commitment play are just worse. Her spacing tools aren't as good, her damage not as high from those positions. In exchange she got approaches in nair and fast fall uair. Her kill power is about as good as it always was, but it was shifted to a place where she must land paralyzer or commit instead of just fishing for side-bs and back airs.

ZSS is a good character for largely the same reasons she was a good character in brawl. She is more consistent now and less buggy, but probably significantly less "scary". Relatively she's a little better because the balancing points are different in this game, but she isn't in the same tier as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. It's just not reasonable.

I can agree with this accept where did you get the frame data from because her jab is still 1 frame. Their is also the gigantic weakness that she had in brawl that was shield pressure. After the update the reward on grab got a lot better like to point where you can take lives at 90 percent because of up special. This helps immensely with sheild pressure.

 

[smashboy12]

I found a new trick with Kirby and Dark Pit. Copy Dark Pit's Silver Bow ability and then grab him and use a forward throw.
Once you're in the air use his neutral-b and you will hover in the air instead of following down.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I found a new trick with Kirby and Dark Pit. Copy Dark Pit's Silver Bow ability and then grab him and use a forward throw.
Once you're in the air use his neutral-b and you will hover in the air instead of following down.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but bow stalling has already been found.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Olimar's not bad.

I feel AI impracticality on 3ds justifies vitriol but his kit itself isn't bad. I really feel anyone that can go deep has intrinsic value.

So, I really do think Link is a top 15 character now. Here's what I know from my experience:

Basically, his SH Bomb Drop (dropping a bomb with Z-air) is very effective at baiting and mind-games against his opponents, and especially useful against Sonic, making the latter have to create a new strategy to get in. This also makes Link superior in one way to Toon Link, as his SH Bombs do not explode, unlike Toon Link's, which do explode when trying the same thing at any distance (even point blank drop). This is also great against the projectile spamming characters with large projectiles, such as Lucario and Samus. It's a guarantee that the projectiles will collide with the bombs, making them diminish. (As if Link couldn't already block them, we got this.)

As a side note, SH Bomb Drop works with Meteor Bombs, and using the Meteor Bomb Drop off the edge could net you luck in causing a meteor on your opponent.

Then there's the Reversal U-Spec, which, while somewhat unchanging, is quite the bait/mind game tactic (and the result of my stick turning right while using U-Spec).

When talking about good footsies and SH tactics, his SH N-air is very decent against Little Mac, as while Mac can ignore most footsies, Link can counter him by using the SHFF N-air behind Little Mac (due to a hitbox being behind Link during the attack). It's also very safe to use and safe on block due to its very low landing lag. His SH F-air is also safe on block, especially SHFF F-air, due to its own little landing lag.

His U-air is also great for out-ranging most attacks coming down at Link; its hugely disjointed hitbox makes it safe for Link to hit from below, as the sword almost always will hit any opponent who tries an impromptu attack downward. The only two attacks that I know may defeat it from above are Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot and Rosalina's D-Air.

His D-air is very safe on block, due to the bouncing effect it retains; of course, this is if you don't use the FF version of it, where it pierces through a character. Now, talking about the FF variation, it's extremely useful in situations where Link is being sent to the upper blast zone, and is a great escape tool for him, as well as being a good KO tool against impromptu attackers (sends them straight up or ricochets them depending when he hits).

Talking about his throws, here are a few great setups and tactics:

Spoiler

D-Throw > B-Air
D-Throw > U-Smash
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Tilt
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Air
D-Throw > B-Air > F-Air > Boomerang > F-Air
F-Throw > F-Air
U-Throw > U-Air
U-Throw > Spin Attack Aerial

So, this is my experience overall with Link. He's a very solid character with amazing tools at his disposal, and he feels like a top 15 character (top 10 with Meteor Bombs). Attacks are great, strategies are amazing, recovery is god-like (compared to Brawl), and overall just amazing. He is widely underestimated as a character, but he is very dangerous in the right hands.

Link is really interesting, and I feel he's better then Toonlink. Less lag on the aerials, more range. The ground speed is slower but it's not that significant given Links overall strength now.







Can't believe their are talks of ban diddy already.
Odd enough that Sky's invi banned Rosa on the first day of Wii U
How are we going to see the game develop in such a case.

I think Shulk at a higher level then what we have seen or reached is going to be a greater force. You can alter KO & combo percents with 4/5 Monado arts. Vanilla/Speed (or is speeds FF speed relevant), Buster,Jump, Smash,Shield. That's 5 different effects on KB given blatently increased KB (Smash), or the in/decreased damage. Buster is safer on shields, Speed and Jump break into zones really well, plus that Speed walking comparable to dashes.


The point your combo breaks is earlier in Jump then vanilla, early in Smash then Buster. Vanilla is sturdier them all but Shield. Some of your early throw combos won't work on shield due to lack of hitstun/knockback.
The kind of things Shulk mains can't quantify because it'll take considerable time to work that all out and then that influences matchups further as the opposition tries to understand their options against X art.

The characters in the limelight currently are Diddy,Rosa, ZSS,Ness, Rob, Pika Mac, Sonic, Pits, Fox, Lucario, Yoshi, Robin, Villager, Mii Brawler, Sheik. That's a great number right now if you take it in.
All of those characters have been seen as threats and recieved a fair amount of attention (some more then others)

The ones to look for in the coming months I believe are
Shulk,Charizard, Link, Jigglypuff, Mii Gunner, Peach, Megaman.

I dont think DHD is going to be a real contender, Similar to how I felt about Bowser. DHD has shock value because his kit is obnoxious and makes a fair amount of the cast exercise patience when they don't want to.
His CQC isn't even that bad which is funny for all the spam that's utilized early on. Unless DHD's start trapping out of their projectiles, and on a level that is really difficult to shutdown, he's just going to get zoned in. The way I see it, his projectiles aren't to really play a keep away game. He drops a can, this is a trap you have to respect insofar as how he can use it as a follow up for his various options. If your knocked into a can it's significant. If he starts throwing a can at you from the other side of FD it's trivial. My qualm is, if you run into a DHD and he's placing his can to control the space, throws out a frisbee, you N-air the frisbee, that's gone. His ability to follow up now can be limited. He'll want to box you back out, get the can set-up, but im not afraid of DHD's normal range as Kirby. Damn not afraid of it as Marth, Shulk or Pit. Nor am I afraid of his long-range at any stage of it. All he's got is mid-range, and he has a window of opportunity in that range that if he doesn't stake his claim who is he?

 

[Terotrous]

Last I remember, Jiggs only disadvantaged matchup in Melee was Fox.

I'm not arguing that Jiggs didn't perform well in Melee. However, when you look at Jiggs, she in no way meets the criteria of a "complete character" in the way that someone like Yoshi does (in this game). She basically has like 3-4 good moves and that's it, even though those good moves are very good. Much like Little Mac, Jiggs is kind of only half a character because so many of her moves have almost no practical use.

The reason she got away with this in Melee was because there weren't really many characters who could take advantage of the holes in her toolset. Jiggs can have issues with characters who are good at safe space control and who have a lot of vertical kill power, but in Melee most of the characters fitting that description just aren't very good. In PM, when a lot of these characters got buffs, she suddenly has a ton of really awful matchups because her limited toolset just leaves her with no way to play around these characters. Mewtwo vs Jiggs is probably at least 8-2 in PM, maybe even 9-1. It was so bad that Hungrybox ragequit out of a match and dropped Jiggs altogether after that.

 

[Signia]

slow movement? Ok no she's faster than most the cast

Ok, she's barely faster than average, at 19th. Faster than I thought, but another very average aspect of her.

She is fast. So she can rush so characters down

Hah. Wii Fit can rush-down? How? She has no approach.

and she has good combos like upthrow>uair>fair & nair>backhit ftilt>header. Her jab also grounds U so she can follow off or try to get the read of them popping out. She also has and amazing ledge game. When its not safe to go on the stage, she can use headers until one hits then she can run on the stage. Fsmash is extremely strong, I've even gotten kills at 80% with it. With pivoting a thing she can pivot fsmash and play mind games. Pivoting her ftilt can also help her a lot. The back hit sends u up and the front hit can kill. The front hit knocks U forward so its like a "get away" Attack. She can camp really well. Due to her low crouch she has lots of better matchups like ZSS. Diddy. Etc.

I'm thoroughly unimpressed by the videos you linked. As for those combos, ok, that's ... average ... and even then I'll believe it when I see it.

She can camp with projectiles decently. That's it. But aren't there far better keepaway/projectile characters in this game?

 

[Asdioh]

Can't believe their are talks of ban diddy already.

Who is stupid enough to say this? Ignore them if these people actually exist.

Odd enough that Sky's invi banned Rosa on the first day of Wii U
How are we going to see the game develop in such a case.

What.
What?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Who is stupid enough to say this? Ignore them if these people actually exist.
What.
What?

Zero
Wot

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sounds like a lot of alarmist bull**** to me. Can we not entertain character bans this early in the game's life? It's ridiculous.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Berserker.]

I don't think Diddy deserves to be banned, but nerfed? Yeah sure. Why not? I mean, it's just one move of his that we think should be nerfed *cough* u-air *cough*

Edit: Wtf Rosalina was banned?

 

[Flamecircle]

Rosalina was not banned at the invitational, she just wasn't played because no one wanted to play someone slow during a promotional thing.

Only Zero mentioned banning diddy, and literally everyone else is saying that's dumb. Zero tends to overreact.


DHD is a good zoner, but depends on the Can for traps. Since the can is eaten by rosalina, DHD basically loses that matchup. So unless the DHD player is twice as good as the Rosa player, DHD is probably stuck as a secondary.


Olimar's AI is much better on the WiiU. Much less stray pikmin. Now that he's usable, I believe he's definitely got perks. His air game is alright- decent disjoints, just a bit small. Pretty safe to just throw out since they're all so fast.

The real money is in his grabs and smashes, which go extremely far when using the right pikmin, and hurt badly with the purple one. These attacks are so safe, deceptive, and hard to see coming. They are even safer with pivots. Getting "In" on Olimar is a huge pain.

With customs, Olimar gets a custom that makes all of his pikmin deal knockback when thrown like purple, which I feel is extremely strong due to the varying arcs and speeds of the pikmin, combined with throw speed in general. Plus, it forces everyone to approach, which is what Olimar enjoys.

 

[PK Gaming]

Olimar's not bad.

This. It astounds me that people still think he sucks when his camping game is still solid. Not an amazing character by any means, but far from being the worst in the game.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

There are a lot of characters who can invalidate/mitigate DHD's zoning comfortable but won't find the same luxury against Villager.
Funny enough they have similar recoveries only DHD's is easier to shutdown.
He would be a decent secondary though.

 

[Lavani]

This. It astounds me that people still think he sucks when his camping game is still solid. Not an amazing character by any means, but far from being the worst in the game.

In fairness, his pikmin are literally braindead on the 3DS. It's hard to say good things about a character that doesn't even function properly at all times.

I haven't looked into him much in this game, but I'm sure opinions will change on Wii U.

 

[Spirst]

Rosalina was not banned at the invitational, she just wasn't played because no one wanted to play someone slow during a promotional thing.

Only Zero mentioned banning diddy, and literally everyone else is saying that's dumb. Zero tends to overreact.


DHD is a good zoner, but depends on the Can for traps. Since the can is eaten by rosalina, DHD basically loses that matchup. So unless the DHD player is twice as good as the Rosa player, DHD is probably stuck as a secondary.


Olimar's AI is much better on the WiiU. Much less stray pikmin. Now that he's usable, I believe he's definitely got perks. His air game is alright- decent disjoints, just a bit small. Pretty safe to just throw out since they're all so fast.

The real money is in his grabs and smashes, which go extremely far when using the right pikmin, and hurt badly with the purple one. These attacks are so safe, deceptive, and hard to see coming. They are even safer with pivots. Getting "In" on Olimar is a huge pain.

With customs, Olimar gets a custom that makes all of his pikmin deal knockback when thrown like purple, which I feel is extremely strong due to the varying arcs and speeds of the pikmin, combined with throw speed in general. Plus, it forces everyone to approach, which is what Olimar enjoys.

For DH, it's really not that straightforward. Rosalina may have an advantage, but DH doesn't lose just because Gravitational Pull eats the Can. If Rosalina is constantly being forced to down B, then that means she's uncomfortable from the pressure being applied. In addition to the can, there's the clay pigeon and gunmen. While both the can and the clay pigeon can be absorbed, the gunmen can't. Not to mention that both the can and the clay pigeon have very little commitment anyway and Rosalina won't be able to constantly pull those in without getting punished a few times. DH is a good zoner, yes, but it's not the only thing he's relegated to. Being more aggressive vs Rosalina works quite well. I've seen a lot of people on here speaking of DH as if he's polarized and only effective at camping/zoning and that's just not true. He has a disjointed fair that's safe on shield, disjointed bair and tilts for shield poking, fthrow follow-ups, and can use the projectiles for aggro pressure play just as much as zoning play.

 

[Bedoop]

yeah i have been noticing that too so marios been nerfed a little but do you think F.L.U.D.D has any competitive presence?

I wouldn't call the Cape Breaking a "Nerf", it's just a slight change in Mechanics that--in the long run--adds to Mario's survivability (now with 1.0.4 removing Vectoring and re-adding DI, it helps even more) so I would call it a "Buff".

As for F.L.U.D.D., I originally found it to be a bit nerfed from Brawl, having a shorter range vertically (Moving the Nozzle up and down has less of an impact now) and a bit longer charge time, but I've found recently that the Water Blast has a "Sweetspot" if you will, located just at F.L.U.D.D.'s Nozzle that sends the opponent flying if they're in the air, plus F.L.U.D.D.'s Water now has a bigger pushbox, so I'm thinking the tradeoff in my opinion says that F.L.U.D.D. has been buffed.
As for the competitive scene, I say that F.L.U.D.D. could be very useful in matchups against characters like Ike, Bowser Jr. and in some cases Duck Hunt (among others) to help push the opponent away when hitting them with the Cape (which is really good against characters like Pit and Dark Pit, by the way) just won't cut it.

If I were to recommend Custom Moves (if they're allowed in Tourneys), I would say always choose the "High Pressure F.L.U.D.D.", as it is vastly superior to the normal one, and--if you're willing to sacrifice Cape Braking--the "Gust Cape", as it gives a bigger Push, which I found useful against Characters like Shulk and Little Mac who want to rush you with such things as Side Bs and Dash Attacks. Other Customs such as the "Fast Fireball" and "High Jump Punch" are also useful, if you're willing to sacrifice a bit of damage in tradeoff of a more Safe gameplay style.

However, I do like Doctor Mario more than his Plumber Counterpart all in all, but that's a story for another day.

 

[LostinpinK]

Keeping up with some of the last discussions:
I don't really agree with the general statement of ZSS not being that great. People don't even mention her new up B, which is, I believe, one of the best killmoves in the game. She might have received some nerfs from Brawl but I don't believe that the comparison is useful because of the new engine. Thanks to her mobility and fast attacks, she can punish basically anything on naturally sandbaggy characters. She also probably has one of the best OOS game. It makes her punish game crazy.
Nevertheless I admit that she's frustrating to play as when facing small characters because the punishments whiff because her hitbox are generally small vertically (bair, ftilt, laser). It certainly won't make her fall below top 8 though. It would be more interesting to discuss her MU against other tops / well performing characters (see Gheb_01's list). If all of them are bad or even, or half of them are really bad, I'd consider putting her lower, but right now I still conider her a great pick.

As someone who dropped DDD after the patch I agree with him being underwhelming now. Below-average neutral game and being fairly sandbaggy with the new weird DI make me feel he won't ever get near the first half. Disclaimer: I consider the game well balanced and I'm aware that he has a lot of great tools. But a lot of characters are better.

I really can't see him mid tier as some of you mentioned, regardless of how I respect you as players. His neutral game is just, so, so, sooooo bad. Yeah he's scary once in, but it won't ever matter if you don't get close. Saying that his mobility is average is a huge hyperbole, I don't have air mobility datas but I'm fairly sure kirby has one of the worst horizontally (and even vertically). You can do nice stuff to people worse than you, but you won't touch a player of your skill level. Not the worst character in the game because Olimar and Mii Swordsman exist, but there's not a lot of worse characters. At least certainly not enough to push him into mid tier.
With customs things get better for him, but for now I can't name 10 clearly worse characters (especially with Ike's or Ganon's buff), which makes him bottom in my eyes. Same disclaimer as DDD's though, this game bottom tier is not brawl's and he's certainly better than brawl's bottom 10, but in this game he belongs there.


Generally, I feel like a lot of people claim X character is midtier because it has cons but also neat pros, but in this game it means low tier to me. I don't know enough about WFT to build an argumentation but it might be the same effect.

Also, on the "footsies" name debate, it's actually fairly new that people use this term. Probably because SFIV became popular. Where did "spacing" go?

 

[Flamecircle]

For DH, it's really not that straightforward. Rosalina may have an advantage, but DH doesn't lose just because Gravitational Pull eats the Can. If Rosalina is constantly being forced to down B, then that means she's uncomfortable from the pressure being applied. In addition to the can, there's the clay pigeon and gunmen. While both the can and the clay pigeon can be absorbed, the gunmen can't. Not to mention that both the can and the clay pigeon have very little commitment anyway and Rosalina won't be able to constantly pull those in without getting punished a few times. DH is a good zoner, yes, but it's not the only thing he's relegated to. Being more aggressive vs Rosalina works quite well. I've seen a lot of people on here speaking of DH as if he's polarized and only effective at camping/zoning and that's just not true. He has a disjointed fair that's safe on shield, fthrow follow-ups, and can use the projectiles for aggro pressure play just as much as zoning play.

Rosalina isn't forced to down-b. She just can do it at all ranges where DHD is strongest. Once she's say, a quarter of the screen away, DHD doesn't have time to put out projectiles without getting punished. The gunman is the only special DHD has that would still do it's job in the matchup.

So essentially, it would come down to who's physical attacks are better- and while DHD is much better at melee ranges than most expect, he doesn't have much compared to Rosalina. DHD would have a fair chance if he could, like you say, use the projectiles for aggro play, but against Rosalina he just can't do that.

EDIT: Seriously guys, Olimar isn't the worst. His biggest con from the 3ds version is now less frequent and more controllable, and with that he's overall solid with great strengths and a slight weakness to being juggled. Certainly better than Kirby who's only merit is his multi jumps and utilt and has a huge weakness in that he's bad at getting in, or Wiifit trainer who's extremely screwed against anyone with a reflector because of incredibly lackluster normals.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can agree with this accept where did you get the frame data from because her jab is still 1 frame. Their is also the gigantic weakness that she had in brawl that was shield pressure. After the update the reward on grab got a lot better like to point where you can take lives at 90 percent because of up special. This helps immensely with sheild pressure.

I got this frame data from dentarion's data mining. It says her jabs come out on frames 2, 7, and 11 IIRC. Unless I read it wrong, which is possible

I'm beginning to agree with this tbh. In particular, her Uair and Bair seem a lot less overpowering than they were in Brawl. Uair is still really, really good, and Bair is pretty solid, but they definitely aren't as solid as they used to be. And yeah, not starting with suit pieces is a pretty damn huge nerf, all things considered.

ZSS's main strength now, IMO, is that she's probably one of the hardest characters in the game to edgeguard (in theory, at least), and her off-stage game is pretty stellar. Although actually getting them off-stage isn't always that easy...

I think her main strength is that she can punish /anything/. Jab being fast, up b being great OOS, dsmash being amazing for laggy stuff, grab+dash speed being great for things that are far away. She can punish like anything, especially any landing... it is very dangerous to make big commitments vs ZSS, another reason I think she owns scrubs.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Jiggs has a lot of good moves...

All the aerials, at least 3 throws, dash attack, and f smash are good. That's 10 right there.

Then we also got Pound and Rest. Rest is as good as like 4 usable moves on its own.

Then there is also aerial velocity, recovery, etc... Melee Jiggs is complete.

As for PM, I'm not as well versed there but... 3.02 Mewtwo is stupid crazily jank. Jiggs doesn't transition to the engine too well (yes, PM and Melee don't share the exact same engine. 3.5 is closer, 3.02 not as much).

Also Mewtwo is in Melee so I mean ... Yeah

 

[David Viran]

I got this frame data from dentarion's data mining. It says her jabs come out on frames 2, 7, and 11 IIRC. Unless I read it wrong, which is possible

Thinkaman's frame data said that it was frame 1 and I went and tested mac's jab, which is frame 1,with zero suits and they clanked almost every time. His frame data also looked a lot more like brawl besides a few things. There is a thread for this to. I think it's on page 2 of the Wii U and 3DS competitive forum.

 

[Lavani]

I got this frame data from dentarion's data mining. It says her jabs come out on frames 2, 7, and 11 IIRC. Unless I read it wrong, which is possible

The data shows jab 1 as 1f and the hitboxes end on 2f. Jab 2 is 2f and jab 3 is 3f.

EDIT: Kinda ninja'd welp

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The data shows jab 1 as 1f and the hitboxes end on 2f. Jab 2 is 2f and jab 3 is 3f.

EDIT: Kinda ninja'd welp

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=szerosuit&mode=view104#subaction-050

According to this, it looks like the visual effects start on frame 1 and the actual move starts on frame 2.
"def game_50():" is Jab 1

def game_50():
Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x5C, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x17, BKB=0x0, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=12.000000, X=13.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x3D, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x2D, BKB=0x0, Size=3.800000, Z=0.000000, Y=11.000000, X=9.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=2.000000, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=8.000000, )
unk_170(0x13, 0x2100, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=11.000000, )
unk_170(0xD, 0x2100, )
End_196()

Then gfx_50 which if I'm not mistaken is the visual part of the move.

def gfx_50():
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=1.000000, )
unk_070(0x100008D, 0x0, 0.000000, 14.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.800000, 0x1, 80.000000, )
unk_156(1.300000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=2.000000, )
unk_060(0x100008F, 0x0, 0.000000, 14.000000, 12.500000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.900000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 360.000000, 0x1, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=3.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=6.000000, )
unk_08A(0x100008D, 0x1, 0x1, )
End_196()

I interpreted this as meaning that you can see it on frame 1, but there is no hitbox until 2.

Pardon my ignorance if I've read this incorrectly, but there isn't much documentation...

 

[san.]

You see the hitbox start at the beginning, frame 1. The hitbox ends on frame 2, hence "Remove All Hitboxes"

 

[ZHMT]

I'm not arguing that Jiggs didn't perform well in Melee. However, when you look at Jiggs, she in no way meets the criteria of a "complete character" in the way that someone like Yoshi does (in this game). She basically has like 3-4 good moves and that's it, even though those good moves are very good. Much like Little Mac, Jiggs is kind of only half a character because so many of her moves have almost no practical use.

The reason she got away with this in Melee was because there weren't really many characters who could take advantage of the holes in her toolset. Jiggs can have issues with characters who are good at safe space control and who have a lot of vertical kill power, but in Melee most of the characters fitting that description just aren't very good. In PM, when a lot of these characters got buffs, she suddenly has a ton of really awful matchups because her limited toolset just leaves her with no way to play around these characters. Mewtwo vs Jiggs is probably at least 8-2 in PM, maybe even 9-1. It was so bad that Hungrybox ragequit out of a match and dropped Jiggs altogether after that.

Jigglypuff isn't half a character. Let's look at her moves and such. Aerials = amazing. Air speed = amazing. Grab game = great. Why? She has high pummel dps and her throws all do 10% meaning she can focus on positioning and lose no damage. Also because people are conditioned to shield more vs Jiggs as she's in the air more and rest can beat most things that arent shield or counter on reaction. Recovery = great. Combo potential = good. Edgeguarding = great. DI = great for escaping strings or combos.

Ground moves = average. Yes I said average. You do know half of Jiggs ground moves outrange Metaknights in this game right? I know he doesn't have great pokes in this as he did in Brawl but they are far better in this game. They are safer on block, ftilt is actually fairly safe if spaced and is -10 after shield drop iirc. That's mehhh but not as bad as it was in Brawl which it was around -18. Her jab has a lot more reach in this game and gives enough frame advantage for mixups afterwards. Dtilt has less range than her 2nd hit of jab but sends them at a low angle so it has use in that regard. If it didn't send them low it would be useless imo. Utilt is also very safe in this game, it is around -7 after shield drop. That is Marths untipped dtilt in Brawl with a bit less range. Tipped was -14? I'm going off memory here.

I don't know much about Little Mac, so correct me if I'm wrong. Edgeguarding = bad, recovery = bad, aerials = bad. Completely different amounts of character completion here imo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You see the hitbox start at the beginning, frame 1. The hitbox ends on frame 2, hence "Remove All Hitboxes"

So there is no "Frame=X" for frame 1 moves, correct?

 

[Asdioh]

I really can't see him mid tier as some of you mentioned, regardless of how I respect you as players. His neutral game is just, so, so, sooooo bad. Yeah he's scary once in, but it won't ever matter if you don't get close.

What are characters with good neutral games? Does he need projectiles or disjoints to have one? He seems the same or better as Brawl, and he was a pretty solid mid tier there. I feel like his matchups in this game are all better than his worst matchups were in Brawl. And yes, customs help this even more.

Saying that his mobility is average is a huge hyperbole, I don't have air mobility datas but I'm fairly sure kirby has one of the worst horizontally (and even vertically)

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2inca4/air_speed_comparison_of_all_characters/
Yes, his airspeed is godawful, and it really deserves to be better, considering air juggling is one of the major points of the character.

You can do nice stuff to people worse than you, but you won't touch a player of your skill level. Not the worst character in the game because Olimar and Mii Swordsman exist, but there's not a lot of worse characters. At least certainly not enough to push him into mid tier.

I dunno, I've been doing pretty solidly against the top players in the RI/MA area so far. Taking them to last stock high % and/or last game. I've gotten top 3 at my last two (admittedly small) tournaments with just Kirby. I have plenty of tourney matches and stuff on my channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr1b401ch5uKgl7ei1GRdCw/videos

With customs things get better for him, but for now I can't name 10 clearly worse characters (especially with Ike's or Ganon's buff), which makes him bottom in my eyes. Same disclaimer as DDD's though, this game bottom tier is not brawl's and he's certainly better than brawl's bottom 10, but in this game he belongs there.

Maybe. I've been thinking of him as pretty solidly mid tier, but like you said it's hard to say who the "worst" character in this relatively-balanced game are.

Like, his matchups against some of the perceived best characters in the game all seem pretty 50:50 or 40:60 at worst to me.
Sheik: uptilt combo her for days, juggle her from below, he has much more KO power than her after her nerf. Ducks under needles, abuses her power even better than she does.
Greninja: uptilt combo for even more days because he falls so fast, the matchup was doable after I learned it, and then he got nerfed so it's even easier.
Rosalina: this matchup felt hellish (unless Kirby had her power, Luma shot outprioritizes literally everything she has, including her own Luma shot) but I haven't played it in the new patch/wiiu yet. If he can actually grab her with relative safety now, it shouldn't be too bad. He also makes her pretty helpless if he gets in the air beneath her. Her Dair is too predictable and punishable.
Fox: ducks under lasers and dashgrab, again combos him heavily because of his fallspeed, and is one of the easiest characters to gimp.
ZSS: ducks under EVERYTHING. Stupidly easy matchup, for how good of a character she (supposedly) is.
Yoshi, Lucario, Ness, etc. I won't go into too much detail but at the very least, none of the matchups seem awful.

 

[san.]

So there is no "Frame=X" for frame 1 moves, correct?

I think there are a few, but there'd be no reason to code it in except if it used to be greater than 1 and they reduced it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi vs Kirby should remain similar to Brawl.
Pick Battlefield.
Granted I didn't think Kirby beat Yoshi, but so they say.

 

[Terotrous]

Jigglypuff isn't half a character. Let's look at her moves and such. Aerials = amazing. Air speed = amazing. Grab game = great. Why? She has high pummel dps and her throws all do 10% meaning she can focus on positioning and lose no damage. Also because people are conditioned to shield more vs Jiggs as she's in the air more and rest can beat most things that arent shield or counter on reaction. Recovery = great. Combo potential = good. Edgeguarding = great. DI = great for escaping strings or combos.

Ground moves = average.

I would grade it like this:

Fair = good
Bair = fantastic
all other aerials = average at best

FSmash = decent
USmash = okay
Jab = decent
All other grounded normals = below average

Down B = fantastic (but risky)
Side B = Great (in melee, less so in Smash4)
Up B = Worst in game easily
Neutral B = nearly useless

UThrow = Great (less so in Smash 4)
All other throws = okay


When I talk about her having 4 good moves I mostly mean Fair, Bair, Rest, and Pound. Also UThrow I guess (I wasn't really counting throws). Having 2 basically useless B moves is pretty damaging, particularly considering that her moveset is otherwise pretty basic and not heavily disjointed or anything.

 

[Asdioh]

Yoshi vs Kirby should remain similar to Brawl.
Pick Battlefield.
Granted I didn't think Kirby beat Yoshi, but so they say.

Kirby vs. Yoshi was miserable in Brawl, Kirby was forced to approach and Yoshi's pivot grab shut down everything he could do. In this game it's harder to say, Yoshi's INSANELY GOOD airspeed is probably the toughest part, considering eggs still force Kirby to approach. But I feel like he can do better otherwise. Might be a 40:60 matchup in Yoshi's favor, I wouldn't be surprised.
I feel like Kirby struggles more against Yoshi, Sonic, Marth, etc., other characters you don't see as being tippity top tier, rather than the ones that have been winning tournaments.
Also I've seen essentially nobody playing Kirby in tournaments so that kinda sucks. I've seen myself and one of T!mmy's sets and that's about it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi, Lucario, Ness, etc. I won't go into too much detail but at the very least, none of the matchups seem awful.

From my experience, Yoshi bodies Kirby (and by bodies I mean at least a +2 in Yoshi's favor); Yoshi is way more mobile, egg lay outranges kirby's everything and allows even more mobility with b reverses, out trades, lives longer, has better kill set ups, can jump out of juggles, down b out of shield, etc. All Kirby really has going for him is like 2-3 utilts at low percent and that inhale can beat egg lay if spaced wrong, otherwise, bair loses to 90% of Yoshi's options, Yoshi is way faster, and Kirby's major strength, juggling, is just straight up ineffective against Yoshi.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think there are a few, but there'd be no reason to code it in except if it used to be greater than 1 and they reduced it.

Interesting, thank you.

 

[san.]

I would grade it like this:

Fair = good
Bair = fantastic
all other aerials = average at best

Stopped reading there.

 

[ZHMT]

I would grade it like this:

Fair = good
Bair = fantastic
all other aerials = average at best

FSmash = decent
USmash = okay
Jab = decent
All other grounded normals = below average

Down B = fantastic (but risky)
Side B = Great (in melee, less so in Smash4)
Up B = Worst in game easily
Neutral B = nearly useless

UThrow = Great (less so in Smash 4)
All other throws = okay


When I talk about her having 4 good moves I mostly mean Fair, Bair, Rest, and Pound. Also UThrow I guess (I wasn't really counting throws). Having 2 basically useless B moves is pretty damaging, particularly considering that her moveset is otherwise pretty basic and not heavily disjointed or anything.

You think her uair is average? Its super disjointed and has about 12 active frames, do you realise how good thatis? It means punishing air dodges is free and most characters can't do anything from above you. It also true combos into nair another uair or rest.

You think her nair is average? Umm...her nair is probably one of her best moves. It does 11% strong, hits frame 6 and lasts over 20 frames, its safe as can be and shield pokes really easily.

Her utilt is moderate reward for low risk, you can't say that is a quality a below average move has. Ftilt isn't bad, the hitbox is out 4 frames which isn't bad, its fast for its damage output as well. It lacks range and is unsafe on hit at low percents which is the downside of it and I admit sucks.

Her smashes are overall poor in this game. Usmash out of shield is ok but dsmash is bad and fsmash is weaker than back air so yeah, not good.

Also Rest isn't risky. Do you know how rest works? Its in my opinion one of the best moves in the game. Even if you don't use Rest at all it has a psychological effect on opponents once they reach 54% or so. Remember what its like playing against Wario in Brawl when his waft/down B is usable? Well Jiggs has this, the entire game. Rest is actually stronger, hits frame 2, and is invincible frame 1. If your reaction time is great, the move is really dumb. However it is still balanced and fair in my opinion. (Nintendo if you see this for whatever reason don't nerf the move, its fine).

Imagine having Fox's shine in Melee and not being able to jump cancel it so youlll get punished hard on whiff. (Lose your stock at 40%) But if it hits you are able to 55-death characters off it, guaranteed with TAS like execution. That is what rest is in practice. You decide when to use it, not your opponent.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I would grade it like this:

Fair = good
Bair = fantastic
all other aerials = average at best

Since when were Nair, uair and Dair "average at best"

Nait is a great spacing tool, has a long lasting hotbox, good range, good damage. Great for mixups. I remember early on HBox called it her main spacing tool in this game.

Up Air is great for juggles, approaching from down low. Great range for a vertical move like this. Lasts a while.

Dair does great damage, safe on shield. Perfect with her aerial velocity. Can even lead into Rest in certain conditions.

Jiggs historically has one of the best aerial movesets for a reason... Especially in this game.

 

[NairWizard]

I think it's very interesting that casual players and even a lot of you guys are still putting ZSS in like top 5. Why is that? When I thought she'd received a lot of buffs in the other thread, people were outraged.

From Brawl, a game where ZSS was good but flawed in a lot of ways, she received really very few positive changes. Most of the buffs from Brawl were changes to how her moves work on block and a few bug fixes.

Buffs:
- Jab completes (bug fix)
- up-b no longer a tether (buff in some match-ups, worse in others)
- zair (useless really except during recovery and against very tall characters)
- nair is safe on block
- down-b has more invincibility frames and the arc can be adjusted
- paralyzer can be fired before being fully charged

I might have missed a couple of things, but pretty much everything else was a nerf. Her range is worse, her frame data is worse (jab +1 frame, dtilt +3 frames, uar +2 frames, other stuff) she doesn't start with suit pieces, side-b isn't safe vs fast characters and no longer kills, her damage is worse across the board (fair 12% from 17%, dsmash 8% from 11% and can't be used twice), could go on and on. Her grab is still 16 frames and it might have slightly less recovery but it's still probably the worst in the game. Hey, at least they got rid of the dead zone.

The overall approach to ZSS was that her rewards from low-commitment play are just worse. Her spacing tools aren't as good, her damage not as high from those positions. In exchange she got approaches in nair and fast fall uair. Her kill power is about as good as it always was, but it was shifted to a place where she must land paralyzer or commit instead of just fishing for side-bs and back airs.

ZSS is a good character for largely the same reasons she was a good character in brawl. She is more consistent now and less buggy, but probably significantly less "scary". Relatively she's a little better because the balancing points are different in this game, but she isn't in the same tier as Rosalina or Diddy Kong. It's just not reasonable.

Yeah, I agree, and have been saying that ZSS isn't that good for a long time now. Her Speed was buffed, but damage and kill power were nerfed in various places. And the grab is still bad on whiff.

She's good in an absolute sense, but everyone's good in that sense now. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, which is why you see people come up every so often who claim that X character is "probably mid or above." Discussion of a comparable number of strengths and weaknesses is often subjective. You don't have characters like MK in this game who have too many strengths relative to weaknesses for there to be any debate.


@Amazing Ampharos , Pikachu is a fairly strong pick against Diddy, I think, mostly due to edgeguarding.


is strong in general because he's one of the few characters in this game who can be strong in advantage, disadvanage, and neutral. He has an easy time resetting from disadvantage with up-b and Thunder; he edgeguards and juggles easily due to his aerials; and his neutral game is fantastic because of slow-moving Thunderjolts and quick attack.

Other characters that I think are strong in all three states:
(with the right customs, she can be strong in all 3; she can also trade strengths in one area for strengths in another by swapping her custom set, which is even cooler)
(due to Monado switching)
(Bouncing Fish in disadvantage)
(generally just strong with Hammer Spin Dash)
(surprise!)

gets a shoutout for being almost there, but I think he needs a slightly better neutral game to qualify.

 

[Terotrous]

Since when were Nair, uair and Dair "average at best"

Since like half the characters in the game have functionally similar aerials, and most of them have better range?

I might maybe concede that uair is a bit better than average because it lasts so long, but I don't think there's really anything special about nair or dair.

Jiggs historically has one of the best aerial movesets for a reason... Especially in this game.

I think it's really mostly that Bair is very good and her aerial mobility makes the rest of her aerials seem a bit better than they are... as long as she can get in. If she can't, she has basically nothing. Jiggs has no projectile and no burst movement options (well I suppose Rollout is a burst movement option but it's garbage), she either gets in with her aerial mobility or she can't do anything at all.

You think her nair is average? Umm...her nair is probably one of her best moves. It does 11% strong, hits frame 6 and lasts over 20 frames, its safe as can be and shield pokes really easily.

Just like literally every other sex kick in the game though it has among the least range of them all.

Also Rest isn't risky.

It's like -200 on whiff. That's the definition of risk. If you miss it, you're usually dead.

 

[Jabejazz]

(surprise!)

Not sure sure about this one. His recovery, while good as far as covering range goes, isn't exactly amazing
And I'm not even talking about his Gyroid. All 3 are super exploitable.

Extreme Balloon Trip is probably by far his best option, but I feel his recovery is very similar to Ness; both are really exploitable, but dangerous if you mess up.

He's hands down amazing in neutral, pretty good in positive, but his negative state is nothing to write home about.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Since like half the characters in the game have functionally similar aerials, and most of them have better range?

Except they... don't? Please enlighten me on who has a better, more well rounded, and effective aerial kit, or even one similar to Jiggs.

I might maybe concede that uair is a bit better than average because it lasts so long, but I don't think there's really anything special about nair or dair.

Well, I already said my side... so... Nair is an insanely busted spacing tool. Seriously, its like Melee Marth Fair. Its super good. Dair is her worst aerial imo, but it still is great since its safe on shield, and good for hit and run.

I think it's really mostly that Bair is very good and her aerial mobility makes the rest of her aerials seem a bit better than they are... as long as she can get in. If she can't, she has basically nothing.

Okay, so yes, Bair is a busted move. Its one of her bests, everyone knows this. But like, it isn't all she can do. Just because HBox, someone who is known for his dependency on Bair, uses it a bunch, that doesn't mean Jiggs can't do more.

Also, SINCE WHEN WAS HER AERIAL SPEED NOT PART OF HER AERIAL GAME? It's like the keystone of it all! Seriously, it's like you're getting rid of half the character to say that the other half is bad. Jiggs' speed, coupled with Nair's insane active length, or bair's amazing poking ability, allows her to get in.

Just like literally every other sex kick in the game though it has among the least range of them all.

Jiggs' speed makes it the best sex kick in the game with insane range. Also its powerful for a sex kick. Really powerful. Nair, when used with her speed, allows her to bob and weave.

It's like -200 on whiff. That's the definition of risk. If you miss it, you're usually dead.

Rest is high risk, high reward, but what he was getting at was that the presence of Rest, something that you have no risk in having as part of your toolset, already gives it high reward.