Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Rest Syndrome is better imo.

"Sleeping on" metaphor reference included for free

 

[Kofu]

Apparently Leaf Shield is more versatile than I gave it credit for; there's a whole thread on the Mega Man boards about how to use it. I haven't really seen llit in action, though, so this is all hearsay.

 

[Flamecircle]

Apparently Leaf Shield is more versatile than K gave it credit for; there's a whole thread on the Mega Man boards about how to use it. I haven't really seen llit in action, though, so this is all hearsay.

Oh no I know it has uses. Having a really safe grab setup is one, gimping is the other. It's just throwing the leaf shield is just so disadvantageous that it feels pointless.

 

[smashbroskilla]

This is also how I see it, sadly. Changes to vectoring hit him stupidly hard. He's probably, at best, on the lower end of mid tier. All because of his frame. Give his tools to Kirby, and you g

The issue is probably that, as much as you can beat it (hell, as TripleD I can pivot grab his spin dash, FTilt, jab), Sonic just doesn't have to try to beat you. He doesn't play by your games. It's a war of attrition he usually wins by not giving two ****s about footsies.

I still find DDD to be higher mid tier in my opinion. The possible mix up options you can creat with side B are too good imo.

For most of the cast, it's usually about camping in your shield, and punishing his landings.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

I'm probably missing something obvious but what's special about Rosalina here?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

Sonic says hello. A few of his customs offer something pointless, while the rest make him irrefutably worse.

 

[Terotrous]

Melee Jigglypuff wants a word with you (like 19th on original tier list iirc).

Honestly, I feel that Melee Jigglypuff is still basically a bad character who just happens to fight the top tiers well. This is why despite being unchanged in PM she's now one of the worst.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm probably missing something obvious but what's special about Rosalina here?

Thinkaman seems to think that because most characters get better tools to deal with Luma via customs, their Rosalina matchups get better, even though Rosalina herself improves with customs too. Thus, Rosalina as a character gets worse than any other character in the game when customs are turned on.

Disagree with it for the most part: Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are both really good. Of course, I only disagree on her being a "special case"--I still think that she gets worse overall with customs, but not by that much. Her hardest matchups improve, but her easiest matchups become more difficult (Bowser, DK, etc.).

Sonic says hello. A few of his customs offer something pointless, while the rest make him irrefutably worse.

Are you OK? Feeling ill? Nauseous? Vision blurry?
Or have you just not unlocked Hammer Spin Dash?

 

[Jabejazz]

I still find DDD to be higher mid tier in my opinion. The possible mix up options you can creat with side B are too good imo.

I'll say one thing, if Gordos would get destroyed on hit instead of reflected, he's probably be much, much higher than what I currently rank him.

Sonic says hello. A few of his customs offer something pointless, while the rest make him irrefutably worse.

Hammer Spindash says hello. Also I'm pretty sure I've already told you this.

I'd like to re-iterate this point.

- fsmash is average, although nigh unpunishable
- his CQC is **** but he doesn't play the footsies game so who cares. also ftilt outranges dimensions nbd
- I don't know what Hammer Spin Dash is, other customs aren't particularly great though

I agree 100%

Disagree with it for the most part: Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are both really good. Of course, I only disagree on her being a "special case"--I still think that she gets worse overall with customs, but not by that much. Her hardest matchups improve, but her easiest matchups become more difficult (Bowser, DK, etc.).

Aren't both effectively useless without Luma though? Serious question here, didn't play much with Rosa's customs, or even Rosa for that matter.

 

[Ulevo]

Can people give me a synopsis of what the current top 5-8 characters likely are, and a couple reasons as to why? I've been too busy lately with school on release and didn't bother with the 3DS so I'd like to be caught up to speed on what people think are currently the better characters right now.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hammer Spindash says hello. Also I'm pretty sure I've already told you this.

Edit cos I don't want to sound as condescending as you : ok then. You lose mix ups and multihits, and has the slowest SDR out of the three. But hey, the hops 2 fast right? It is probably the only usable custom, but I can't see why you'd use it over standard. I'd be interested to know why.

 

[Shaya]

Tournament results coming out of every orifice:
Seemingly the less apparently OP but still bodying everybody, but losing to Diddy Kongs (or prior to nerfs: Sheik) in Grand Finals:

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I dunno, I think some folks are being a little too generous with D3's portrayal. His polarizing MUs make him feel like a low tier character this time around. He just can't seem to do anything right against more well-rounded characters, in the sense that he doesn't play neutral well, he doesn't zone well, and he doesn't have these almighty buttons that can get him out of a jam (have you seen the frame data in Dantarion's dump? Dtilt is his fastest move at 6 frames, followed by nair at 9; everything else is at least 20 frames or higher). Being a fatass in his case means living longer and hoping to make a big break, unlike the other heavyweights where they at least have more than a couple of tools to help them along coupled with survivability.

I hope I can contribute to furthering D3's game beyond naysaying but I'm not too terribly optimistic.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

Aren't both effectively useless without Luma though? Serious question here, didn't play much with Rosa's customs, or even Rosa for that matter.

Yeah, they are both useless without Luma. But they make getting rid of Luma harder too (Luma Warp is better than Luma Shot--actually, the patch changed the extent of this slightly, but the Luma recall speed buff is amazing for getting Luma out of harm's way regardless of which standard B you use).

DK vs. Rosalina is in Rosalina's favor without customs.

With customs: Kong Cyclone is a great way to destroy Luma (though DK's Storm Punch and other customs aren't that worrisome for Luma), but at the same time, Speedy Star Bit makes it harder for DK to even get near Rosalina unless the stage is Battlefield. You have to approach at odd angles to get a chance to use Kong Cyclone. Luma Warp means that Rosalina doesn't have to go through Kong Cyclone to hit DK, she can Warp in when DK isn't expecting it or punish the ending of Kong Cyclone since Luma Warp is near-instantaneous. DK definitely can't just freely throw the move out against the threat of a Warp, given his huge hurtboxes.

At a very superficial glance, it seems like Rosalina gets far worse vs. DK when customs are turned on, since Luma can die more easily.

But Rosalina's own customs make it harder for DK to leverage this new advantage against Luma in the first place, so I'd call it only slightly better for DK when customs are turned on.

Meanwhile, someone like, say, Diddy is tons easier for Rosalina to face when customs are turned on: he gains very little, while she gains two very potent moves against him.

Overall, her Top Tier matchups get better, but other matchups get worse. She probably gets worse with customs on, but to mark her as a special case is extreme imo.

 

[Jahordon]

Tournament results coming out of every orifice:
Seemingly the less apparently OP but still bodying everybody, but losing to Diddy Kongs (or prior to nerfs: Sheik) in Grand Finals:

Diddy is silly.

Pikachu feels great now. He racks up damage so easily, never has to commit, and seems to kill pretty easily now with VI removal upsmash, sidesmash, and Thunder.

 

[Jabejazz]

Edit cos I don't want to sound as condescending as you : ok then. You lose mix ups and multihits, and has the slowest SDR out of the three. But hey, the hops 2 fast right? It is probably the only usable custom, but I can't see why you'd use it over standard. I'd be interested to know why.

It's exactly like vanilla spindash, except even harder to punish. The angle it goes at is terribly hard to cover on reaction for a lot of characters. Spacing makes the move even harder to read, as the angle changes for every distance you use the move.

Also, how exactly do you lose your mix ups with it? Are you referring to jump cancels? If so, I'm pretty sure this is still doable.

The burying effect is a nice bonus, to boot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can people give me a synopsis of what the current top 5-8 characters likely are, and a couple reasons as to why? I've been too busy lately with school on release and didn't bother with the 3DS so I'd like to be caught up to speed on what people think are currently the better characters right now.

Won more than 1 major / super-stacked tournament:
Won 1 major / super-stacked tourney + various top placings:
Place very high consistently with multiple players:
Place very high consistently with one or two players:
Place moderately well with a few players consistently: (/)

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

So what is the general consensus on Kirby now? I tried going back through the thread but there's just too many posts.

Could somebody give me an indepth explanation on why he's perceived as the worst character?

 

[saltybeach]

So what is the general consensus on Kirby now? I tried going back through the thread but there's just too many posts.

Could somebody give me an indepth explanation on why he's perceived as the worst character?

I am biased here somewhat, but I absolutely do not think kirby is the worst character. I could easily name a bunch of characters worse. I would put him mid-tierish. With customs he goes even higher. The 3rd cutter cutsom is so unbelievably good for kirby it blows my mind.

He has decent mobility, great edge guarding, some combos, and the best gimps in the game. He does have problems, but calling him the worst character in the game is 100% false.

 

[NairWizard]

I am biased here somewhat, but I absolutely do not think kirby is the worst character. I could easily name a bunch of characters worse. I would put him mid-tierish. With customs he goes even higher. The 3rd cutter cutsom is so unbelievably good for kirby it blows my mind.

He has decent mobility, great edge guarding, some combos, and the best gimps in the game. He does have problems, but calling him the worst character in the game is 100% false.

How are Kirby's gimps better than Meta Knight's or Pikachu's?

 

[Asdioh]

I dunno, I think some folks are being a little too generous with D3's portrayal. His polarizing MUs make him feel like a low tier character this time around. He just can't seem to do anything right against more well-rounded characters, in the sense that he doesn't play neutral well, he doesn't zone well, and he doesn't have these almighty buttons that can get him out of a jam (have you seen the frame data in Dantarion's dump? Dtilt is his fastest move at 6 frames, followed by nair at 9; everything else is at least 20 frames or higher). Being a fatass in his case means living longer and hoping to make a big break, unlike the other heavyweights where they at least have more than a couple of tools to help them along coupled with survivability.

I hope I can contribute to furthering D3's game beyond naysaying but I'm not too terribly optimistic.

Smooth Criminal

Hey you've gotta look on the bright side. D3 is a heavyweight that feels almost like he "breaks the rules" a lot of heavyweights have. He has disjointed attacks thanks to his hammer, a great recovery, combos, combos from grabs (and an amazing grab range still), and a projectile (although it's unreliable)
That's more than most heavyweights get from what I can see.

I am biased here somewhat, but I absolutely do not think kirby is the worst character. I could easily name a bunch of characters worse. I would put him mid-tierish. With customs he goes even higher. The 3rd cutter cutsom is so unbelievably good for kirby it blows my mind.

He has decent mobility, great edge guarding, some combos, and the best gimps in the game. He does have problems, but calling him the worst character in the game is 100% false.

Yeah supposedly some people are calling him the worst in the game. I can understand thinking he's not that great, but anyone who's saying he's the worst is delusional.

 

[Nobie]

So what is the general consensus on Kirby now? I tried going back through the thread but there's just too many posts.

Could somebody give me an indepth explanation on why he's perceived as the worst character?

As far as I can tell, the general idea seems to be that Kirby is actually very good and even kind of scary if he can actually get in on his opponent, but has a very difficult time doing that in the first place.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hey you've gotta look on the bright side. D3 is a heavyweight that feels almost like he "breaks the rules" a lot of heavyweights have. He has disjointed attacks thanks to his hammer, a great recovery, combos, combos from grabs (and an amazing grab range still), and a projectile (although it's unreliable)
That's more than most heavyweights get from what I can see.

One thing I wanna mention really quick is that D3's grab range is actually nerfed from Brawl. You're right about everything else, though, but the question remains whether or not these traits will help him in the long run.

Back to work I gooooo

Smooth Criminal

 

[saltybeach]

How are Kirby's gimps better than Meta Knight's or Pikachu's?

I haven't even seen good meta knight players, so I can't comment on meta knights gimps, but kirby has multiple ,safe, gimp options in comparison to pikachu.

Pikachus only real gimp is back-air drag you down, which often doesn't even gimp if you tech off the stage. Thunder often doesn't work in most scenarios against intelligent opponents. All of pikachus gimp options often leave him in SD territory, where if you make a mistake your stock is gone.


EDIT:

As far as I can tell, the general idea seems to be that Kirby is actually very good and even kind of scary if he can actually get in on his opponent, but has a very difficult time doing that in the first place.

I mostly agree with this. Especially against projectile characters.

 

[mimgrim]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

I dunno man. Up Special that kills is pretty redonk. You can get a guarantee kill with this Up Special with default Nanner as well, at relatively early percents.

 

[Jabejazz]

One thing I wanna mention really quick is that D3's grab range is actually nerfed from Brawl. You're right about everything else, though, but the question remains whether or not these traits will help him in the long run.

Back to work I gooooo

Smooth Criminal

Luckily, his grab range is still better than a large portion of the cast.
Also his frame data isn't as terrible as you make it sound.

Jab is Frame 10 (still slow, but a jab game this amazing doesn't deserve to be too fast).
FTilt is Frame 12-24, has Transcendent Priority, and is probably still the tilt with the best range.
Nair hits on frame 7, and last for 3 bazillion frames.

etc.

And while I think our one True King belongs in lower-mid/upper-low, I feel the difference between a Mid-Mid and a Upper-Low is so insignificant that unless you're Lower-High Tier or above, your tier placement doesn't really matter other than for the sake of making an accurate tier list, which I personally do not give two damns about.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Jabejazz I don’t care about minutiae like exact placement either, and I know full well that a "low tier character" doesn't equate to terribad in this (seemingly) balanced roster. It's just what my gut is telling me in regards to his MUs. I don't see an advantageous spread in our future.

...and I was waxing hyperbole/melodrama a little bit on the frame data (did not know that nair starts up on frame seven; thanks for that). Admittedly. :v I dunno, I just wanna do more, dammit.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Omegascizor456]

I feel like quite a few characters are gonna be quite viable in competitive! these include marth, mario,greninja, shiek, and bowser!

 

[san.]

DDD might get hit a bit, but what's the reward of his attacks/grabs? Can he get easy confirms into damage?

 

[Asdioh]

The balance of the game is pretty good though, yeah? I've played some great players of characters that experience from past games would tell me are awful, such as Ganondorf and Dr. Mario, and I've seen some scary things from them.
I'm assuming there is a general agreement that this is the most balanced Smash yet, with the possible exception of Smash64, which is a bit easier to balance with 1/4 of the roster..
And I have a feeling every, or almost every, character is capable of winning large tournaments, especially with future patches being a possibility.

DDD might get hit a bit, but what's the reward of his attacks/grabs? Can he get easy confirms into damage?

Jab combos into things, and his downthrow combos into stuff (the angle changed a bit in 1.0.4 from what I hear, but still combos)
In a 3-stock game, due to his weight and great recovery I often feel like he has 4 stocks to my 3, because he lives so incredibly long. This is partial bias because I play Kirby, who is super light, but you get what I mean.

 

[NairWizard]

I haven't even seen good meta knight players, so I can't comment on meta knights gimps, but kirby has multiple ,safe, gimp options in comparison to pikachu.

Pikachus only real gimp is back-air drag you down, which often doesn't even gimp if you tech off the stage. Thunder often doesn't work in most scenarios against intelligent opponents. All of pikachus gimp options often leave him in SD territory, where if you make a mistake your stock is gone.

Kirby has less mobility in the air than Pikachu and a worse recovery (jumps included: Pikachu's up-b is way better than Kirby's up-b for getting back to the stage safely, and Thunder is a safe cover). If Pikachu misses his edgeguard he can actually up-b back to the stage before his opponent, or even after to get a quick ledge-trump -> b-air. The only way you'll SD as Pikachu is if you put your controller down while you're trying to gimp and just walk away to get a cold drink. If Kirby misses his edgeguard, he's getting edgeguarded back.

Kirby can Stone, d-air, f-air, b-air, and Hammer, none of which are overly safe except for b-air because it's quick (f-air, d-air and Hammer are big commitments, and so is Stone if the other guy dodges it and gets back to the stage before you do). Pikachu can thunderjolt, Thunder, n-air, u-air, d-air, b-air, and f-air to pull opponents away from the stage. Only Thunder and b-air are real commitments, and b-air's hitbox is so good that it doesn't matter most of the time.

Oh, and Kirby has Swallow, which is a cool trick, I guess, but it puts Kirby in a very dangerous situation if the opponent gets out. If Thunder doesn't work against intelligent opponents then Stone and Swallow definitely don't. Also, Pikachu has multiple ways to use Thunder (retreating, B-reverse, or hitting himself as a stall so that he can be close enough to n-air you afterwards, or b-air you when you airdodge past him).

Kirby's edgeguarding is good relative to most of the cast, but Pikachu and Meta Knight are much better at the job. Jigglypuff is better too, though less safe--f-air and b-air walls are very real.

 

[Jabejazz]

DDD might get hit a bit, but what's the reward of his attacks/grabs? Can he get easy confirms into damage?

His grab and jab game is pretty good. A jab can translate into down tilts, down smashes, or grabs. Grabs further develop into nairs, fairs, RAR'd bair or uair, the latter which can be cancelled for the vacuum effects that drags the opponent down, allowing for extra grabs. Although not as efficient as it used to be, this pseudo "chaingrab" is still a thing at lower to mid%.

His DThrow "nerf" isn't really one, as with the removal of vectoring, and the weak DI the game currently offers, there's no real way to escape from Down Throw setups until the opponent is at kill %, at which point you're better off doing FThrow / BThrow offstage to start your edgeguarding game if you haven't killed them with a bair yet.

His punish game is stupidly good, but is crippled by a counter intuitive projectile and a large frame that prevents him from easily getting in.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Honestly, I feel that Melee Jigglypuff is still basically a bad character who just happens to fight the top tiers well. This is why despite being unchanged in PM she's now one of the worst.

And this is bad how?

All that means is that Melee Puff is a good character relative to all the rest, which is a great quality.

Also Melee Puff is insanely good. She's good against everyone. There's a reason why Fox is her only bad MU. Rest is soooo awesome, and her aerials are really that good.

But yeah, being antimeta as all hell is still something that can make a character great.

 

[Omegascizor456]

It appears Mario's cape puts him to a screeching halt, so Cape Gliding (as far as I know) is no longer possible.
However, this could be used like Game & Watch's 'Bucket Brake' and add to his survivability, but I'll have to look more into that.

yeah i have been noticing that too so marios been nerfed a little but do you think F.L.U.D.D has any competitive presence?

 

[saltybeach]

Kirby has less mobility in the air than Pikachu and a worse recovery (jumps included: Pikachu's up-b is way better than Kirby's up-b for getting back to the stage safely, and Thunder is a safe cover). If Pikachu misses his edgeguard he can actually up-b back to the stage before his opponent, or even after to get a quick ledge-trump -> b-air. The only way you'll SD as Pikachu is if you put your controller down while you're trying to gimp and just walk away to get a cold drink. If Kirby misses his edgeguard, he's getting edgeguarded back.

Kirby can Stone, d-air, f-air, b-air, and Hammer, none of which are overly safe except for b-air because it's quick (f-air, d-air and Hammer are big commitments, and so is Stone if the other guy dodges it and gets back to the stage before you do). Pikachu can thunderjolt, Thunder, n-air, u-air, d-air, b-air, and f-air to pull opponents away from the stage. Only Thunder and b-air are real commitments, and b-air's hitbox is so good that it doesn't matter most of the time.

Oh, and Kirby has Swallow, which is a cool trick, I guess, but it puts Kirby in a very dangerous situation if the opponent gets out. If Thunder doesn't work against intelligent opponents then Stone and Swallow definitely don't. Also, Pikachu has multiple ways to use Thunder (retreating, B-reverse, or hitting himself as a stall so that he can be close enough to n-air you afterwards, or b-air you when you airdodge past him).

Kirby's edgeguarding is good relative to most of the cast, but Pikachu and Meta Knight are much better at the job. Jigglypuff is better too, though less safe--f-air and b-air walls are very real.

I was commenting on gimping. I said kirby's edge guard game is good(it is compared to most of the cast). You can think what you want about kirby vs pikachu when it comes to edge guards(though a lot of your points are biased), I don't really have time to have a discussion about the pro's and con's of pikachu and kirby's off-stage game.

When its comes to gimping(low percent kills), pikachu's only TRUE gimps,as I said, is back-air drag you down and maybe some tricky thunder play(that is being generous). The back-air gimp is very hard to pull off and, depending on the opponent's recovery, isn't even a true gimp. It also leaves pikachu dangerously close to the bottom of the blast zone, where if you make a mistake with the gimp or recovery, it might end in a SD.

When it comes to kirby, dair is one of the easiest gimping tools in the game, it leads into footstool on almost all characters, and is relatively safe. Depending on the opponent, you can kill with dair into footstool at very early percents. Also, good kirby players can use inhale very effectively to get gimps. Being ahead a stock as kirby is one of the best tools he has. Jumping Inhale is absolutely ridiculous as a gimp, but I won't get into customs. Between inhale, dair, and having the ability to stay off stage for the longest out of (probably) the entire cast, I would definitively say kirby has the best gimp game.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Default Kirby is meh. his tilts are good, he can play footsies with the typical cast member. Stay away from swordsmen.
Thing is when he wants to just be playing around spacing, he can't set himself into his optimal position, he's just poking in.
Kirby wants to be on your ass like a resting Jigglypuff. If he has to play just outside your range? He can, his range is poor but its not *that* poor (wassup WFT). When Kirby is on you like rice that is when he gets multiple strings, thats when he wracks up damage on you. When he can't get in optimal range, im seriously wondering wtf he is there for. A lot of characters outrange him so he ends up going for a defensive option, a meager poke for next to nothing and thats it, unless dtilt trips them so he can get a follow up. His grabs don't combo excusing like a super early (lol 0%) B-throw-B-air. He can try to follow up with a forward air off his throws too but it is reaching. Thankfully excusing D-throw they all do relevant damage that and he has a good pummel.

All his specials are laggy, Final cutter is poop sorry Idgaf. Stone is situational, and otherwise just poop on a general level. Hammer Flip is impractical as hell, better hope for a shield break. Whats that other special? Inhale. Garbage. Copy abilities can be good but Inhale is terrible at what its supposed to do. Doesn't ignore shields? Sakurai seems to be trying so hard not to show bias to his creations...that he is showing bias to his creations.

His off-stage game is generally good, but Kirbys lack of range and disjoints comes into play. If Kirby is coming to stop you off-stage. Hit him and the problems solved. It's almost as if Kirby is never in advantage because he doesn't apply enough threat even with stage control given his range allows him to be batted away. Jigglypuff by comparison is fast as ****.

Now with customs?
Well his B-button 'works'.
Hammer Bash is decent.
Upper and wave cutter are good.
All 3 stones are generally poop, but situationally good so nothing really changes. Well Meteor stone might be full poop.


When you have such short range and nothings disjointed its a pain, but good for Kirby a lot of the "upper" level so far...aren't range beasts that he can't play around with on some level.

 

[Asdioh]

I agree, he needs some viable throw combos (why does DEDEDE get them, while Kirby had them all removed wtf?), Inhale needs to be less INSANELY PUNISHABLE, he needs some disjoints on SOME attacks, and he needs more airspeed.
I'm not biased at all btw, these are all facts.

 

[saltybeach]

Default Kirby is meh. his tilts are good, he can play footsies with the typical cast member. Stay away from swordsmen.
Thing is when he wants to just be playing around spacing, he can't set himself into his optimal position, he's just poking in.
Kirby wants to be on your *** like a resting Jigglypuff. If he has to play just outside your range? He can, his range is poor but its not *that* poor (wassup WFT). When Kirby is on you like rice that is when he gets multiple strings, thats when he wracks up damage on you. When he can't get in optimal range, im seriously wondering wtf he is there for. A lot of characters outrange him so he ends up going for a defensive option, a meager poke for next to nothing and thats it, unless dtilt trips them so he can get a follow up. His grabs don't combo excusing like a super early (lol 0%) B-throw-B-air. He can try to follow up with a forward air off his throws too but it is reaching. Thankfully excusing D-throw they all do relevant damage that and he has a good pummel.

All his specials are laggy, Final cutter is poop sorry Idgaf. Stone is situational, and otherwise just poop on a general level. Hammer Flip is impractical as hell, better hope for a shield break. Whats that other special? Inhale. Garbage. Copy abilities can be good but Inhale is terrible at what its supposed to do. Doesn't ignore shields? Sakurai seems to be trying so hard not to show bias to his creations...that he is showing bias to his creations.

His off-stage game is generally good, but Kirbys lack of range and disjoints comes into play. If Kirby is coming to stop you off-stage. Hit him and the problems solved. It's almost as if Kirby is never in advantage because he doesn't apply enough threat even with stage control given his range allows him to be batted away.

Now with customs?
Well his B-button 'works'.
Hammer Bash is decent.
Upper and wave cutter are good.
All 3 stones are generally poop, but situationally good so nothing really changes. Well Meteor stone might be full poop.


When you have such short range and nothings disjointed its a pain, but good for Kirby a lot of the "upper" level so far...aren't range beasts that he can't play around with on some level.

I mean, I mostly don't disagree with you. His specials are situational-borderline terrible. Inhale is kinda the only exception(though I only say this because of its offstage gimping potential), but even then it can be very mediocre at times.

His customs make all of his moves better(rock is arguable), so if kirby wants to have any TRUE competitive potential customs will have to be allowed. Up-B 3,as I said before, almost changes kirby as a character. Lots of stuff combos into it (including some specific throw-into-kill set-ups), and it adds another solid kill option for him.

As I said before, kirby is midish tier. He is good at some stuff and bad at some stuff. If customs become allowed he may have potential to be very good in the right hands, but even then who knows.

 

[NairWizard]

I was commenting on gimping. I said kirby's edge guard game is good(it is compared to most of the cast). You can think what you want about kirby vs pikachu when it comes to edge guards(though a lot of your points are biased), I don't really have time to have a discussion about the pro's and con's of pikachu and kirby's off-stage game.

When its comes to gimping(low percent kills), pikachu's only TRUE gimps,as I said, is back-air drag you down and maybe some tricky thunder play(that is being generous). The back-air gimp is very hard to pull off and, depending on the opponent's recovery, isn't even a true gimp. It also leaves pikachu dangerously close to the bottom of the blast zone, where if you make a mistake with the gimp or recovery, it might end in a SD.

When it comes to kirby, dair is one of the easiest gimping tools in the game, it leads into footstool on almost all characters, and is relatively safe. Depending on the opponent, you can kill with dair into footstool at very early percents. Also, good kirby players can use inhale very effectively to get gimps. Being ahead a stock as kirby is one of the best tools he has. Jumping Inhale is absolutely ridiculous as a gimp, but I won't get into customs. Between inhale, dair, and having the ability to stay off stage for the longest out of (probably) the entire cast, I would definitively say kirby has the best gimp game.

I see now that you're separating gimping and offstage edgeguarding. In my mind there isn't really much of a difference between the two: both lead to non-blastzone KOs (so, earlier than "normal" KOs that just send people flying). Since you're using the word gimping to imply generally low-percent kills (in accordance with http://www.ssbwiki.com/Gimp, I'm guessing, though this is an imprecise definition), I'll guess that you're using "offstage edgeguarding" to mean interrupts that are knockback-dependent, vs. "gimping" to mean interrupts that work regardless of the knockback involved.

By this definition, Thunder doesn't even count as a gimp for Pikachu, because it doesn't kill unless the opponent has enough % to get knocked back by it. Pikachu's only knockback-independent gimp is...actually, he doesn't have one, because his b-air won't stage spike either, I believe, unless there's some percent on the opponent. I guess he has some character-specific gimps like on Diddy (n-air the rocket barrel).

So, sure, Kirby has d-air and Swallow: Pikachu has nothing, thus Kirby is better at knockback-independent edgeguarding than Pikachu. He's probably better than the whole cast at that (even Jigglypuff's wall of pain tactics is knockback-dependent).

So-called "gimping" is still just one facet of offstage game and killing before typical KO percents. I'd rather consider the whole picture than one piece of it.

also, since you mentioned bias... I have no reason to be biased in favor of Pikachu, since I don't use characters because I like them: I use them because I think that they have potential. If tomorrow someone convinces me that Kirby has more potential than Pikachu, and more room for creative gameplay, I'll use Kirby instead of Pikachu. *shrugs*

 

[saltybeach]

I see now that you're separating gimping and offstage edgeguarding. In my mind there isn't really much of a difference between the two: both lead to non-blastzone KOs (so, earlier than "normal" KOs that just send people flying). Since you're using the word gimping to imply generally low-percent kills (in accordance with http://www.ssbwiki.com/Gimp, I'm guessing, though this is an imprecise definition), I'll guess that you're using "offstage edgeguarding" to mean interrupts that are knockback-dependent, vs. "gimping" to mean interrupts that work regardless of the knockback involved.

By this definition, Thunder doesn't even count as a gimp for Pikachu, because it doesn't kill unless the opponent has enough % to get knocked back by it. Pikachu's only knockback-independent gimp is...actually, he doesn't have one, because his b-air won't stage spike either, I believe, unless there's some percent on the opponent. I guess he has some character-specific gimps like on Diddy (n-air the rocket barrel).

So, sure, Kirby has d-air and Swallow: Pikachu has nothing, thus Kirby is better at knockback-independent edgeguarding than Pikachu. He's probably better than the whole cast at that (even Jigglypuff's wall of pain tactics is knockback-dependent).

So-called "gimping" is still just one facet of offstage game and killing before typical KO percents. I'd rather consider the whole picture than one piece of it.

also, since you mentioned bias... I have no reason to be biased in favor of Pikachu, since I don't use characters because I like them: I use them because I think that they have potential. If tomorrow someone convinces me that Kirby has more potential than Pikachu, and more room for creative gameplay, I'll use Kirby instead of Pikachu. *shrugs*

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off so strongly. And I certainly don't think he is better then pikachu (without customs at least, even then who knows). I just wanted to stick up for the little guy in the one category I think he has locked-down.

The game is still young. We all only speak from our personal experiences, and right now those experiences are very limited.
Guess we will have to wait and see how things progress.