Character Competitive Impressions

[Supermodel From Paris]

The fact it's a new game doesn't explain why players lost their basics ans their approach.

Geez, I can't believe I have read there is no real footsies in Smash...

I didn't really say that, I just said they're so different that even calling them footsies is questionable. It's like using the term "frame trap" when we talk about forcing an airdodge and hitting them during the recovery. It's a similar idea, but it isn't the same thing.

Footsies in smash are very different. Look, it is well-known what is entailed in normal SF footsies play. It is very difficult to account for all of those potential variables and also be ready to anti-air a jump-in, to account for stalls in the air, to be ready to tech throws after a dash, and so forth. It's hard; even Daigo gets jumped in on in neutral positions. You would think that he'd anti air every time, right? I mean a jump arc in SF4 is 40+ frames or so, that's 2/3 of a second. it's more than enough time to uppercut, right? Especially if he's so awesome that he can react to, gasp, Guile's 2MK in st.

But the reality is that when he anti-airs a jump-in it's because he's ready for it. When he punishes a normal on block that is -3 or -4 with Super it's because he was ready for it. That's not a raw reaction, it can't be. Daigo is an amazing player and a focused and brilliant tactician, but not a mutant. He is a human with a lot of experience and intuition.

Smash has far more variables than even SF4 in neutral positions that you must be aware of. Reacting to a roll is an even taller order because of the number of things you have to keep track of; we don't have as many limits set upon us like set jump arcs, walk speeds, dash distances, and so forth, and in cases where there are those limitations, we have creative ways of changing them. We have additional defensive options, too. In Smash, there is an inherently higher value placed on these sorts of raw reads. You can punish a roll on reaction if you're the right character (say, you have a special you can use in reverse out of a dash while running forward), or if you're just standing still (where you can fsmash in reverse or something else) but only if you're looking for it while also looking for every other thing that could possibly happen.

My character had one of the best forward rolls in brawl and it was one of my only real defensive choices and I STILL got away with it all the time against players who knew what they were doing. Salem got away with just frolling away from **** all the time. Why do you suppose that is? Because smash players or bad? Really?

 

[Emblem Lord]

There isn't, there's only static priority or clashing. No one will play "footsies" when you know every attack the opponent throws at you has a disjointed hitbox or just outpriorizes your moves or vice-versa. Instead you wait for an opening and then attack yourself. Maybe you'll see someone grab another player out of an attack when the grab wouldn't have reached otherwise, but the community has different names for those things.

You..dont know what footsies entails..do you?

 

[Terotrous]

I have a lot of hesitation to putting too much game design emphasis on something as blunt and discriminatory as reaction time. I think it's just a really poor skill to focus on, and have a lot of sympathy for people with poor reaction times who want to still play Smash.

Smash is actually still a very reaction-heavy game though. While rolls really aren't that hard to react to, there are many situations where reactions are quite important, like to powershield / spot dodge, teching (particularly vs stage spikes), clanks, off-stage interactions, etc.

I'm actually fine with reaction time being a significant factor, as it's something that most people who play video games are already good at and it transfers quite naturally between games. I much prefer having this be important than, say, execution skill, which takes much more direct training and usually doesn't carry over between games all that well.

Don't know if it's the rolls that got buffed, the dash attacks that got buffed, the grabs that got nerfed or any combination of these three factors ... but if you whiff a grab against a roll you're often at such a frame disadvantage that you can get hit by the dash attack afterwards.

Uhh, which character's grab is worse than -30 on whiff? ZSS and Pac might be in that range, but I don't think there are many others.

I'm curious. Who is the worst character in the game ?

I'm pretty convinced it's Mii Swordfighter. Olimar really sucks too, but occasionally you catch glimpses of what used to be good about him (mainly when the Pikmin don't forget to attack). With Mii Swordfighter I really just don't know what they were thinking. The only good thing about him is UpB 3 (aka Link's UpB), but if you want that you should just use Link. Swordfighter basically feels like a way worse Link in most ways.

 

[X3I]

I see your main is Mr. G&W. Most players see him as weak, but I see potential. What do you see that makes you use him as a main?

Well, I play him mainly because I like the character... I'm not a tier *****, ahah. He wouldn't have been good, I would have played him anyway. But in my opinion, he is definitely good, and he corresponds to the way I play Smash (which is still important).

He has an unique flaw : he is sooo LIGHT... Mistakes are not allowed. But basically, I love to control the pace of the game and to outsmart my opponent (and thus, to benefit from my opponent's mistakes). Game & Watch has everything I need to do that. As I already said plenty of time in this thread, G&W is probably the most defensive character of the whole game, making him also one of the most skilled one.

Hit & Run is what defines him the best. He his fast and very mobile : his dash is awesome, and he also has the UpB. That, plus all the nice spacing and zoning moves he has, makes him a very annoying character to play against (I'm happy no one plays him, actually).

For example, the Usmash allows me to punish IN REFLEX an air approach, because the upper body is invincible.
Dtilt and Uair permit to PUNISH moves that put a character in free fall (generally, an UpB), or to steal a jump.
The Ftilt may be the best FOOTSIES tool of the game. Its priority is really frightening, and it's fast and safe.

He is a beast in air-to-air, with the Dair and the Bair that are disjoincted hitboxes with a lot of priorities (the landing lag is too long now to use these moves another way - Bair is safe depending of the range, though). If you are high enough (don't smoke, guys), you can use the Dair with no landing lag, which can surprise your opponent.

His UpB is the best recovery of the game by far : quick, invincibility frames, goes high, and doesn't put you in free fall. Can also be used to punish an attack from the air. If custom are allowed, the Heavy one is ridiculous... Allows you to kill very early, and to do a lot of stupid combos.

Bucket prevents a lot of character from camping, and that's what you want since you are focussed on punishing your opponent's mistakes. It's also an easy kill move ! Though, it's useless on some match-ups, since the momentum cancel is gone... =(

I also love Judgement because if you are lucky, you can catch up with a 9 (which can now be comboed after a Dthrow at some % ranges). It's good to have that option because it can also frustrate your opponent, which will make him do more mistakes.

He has a nice throw game, by the way, this video will explain it better than me :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZWhLNl7kM4
(Even thought this isn't exhaustive...)

He also excels at edgeguarding, it's probably the best character of Smash 4 at it (even with Pikachu, maybe). He has sooo many options : UpB, Chief, Dair, Dtilt, Dsmash, Uair, Fair, Ftilt... Well, most of his move are godlike to steal a jump or a recovery move.

All his smashes are safe on block, quick, with a nice range, and kill early... The Fsmash has a great lingering hitbox (even though it's nerfed from Brawl, where it was broken), the Dsmash has a weird knockback on the sour spot that gives you kills at low percent...

Out of shield, his jab is awesome. It's his quickest move, no need to explain why it's useful, I guess...
Utilt might be his worst move, but it's still usable to start a combo (especially after a Dthrow).

You can also change your playstyle during a match and start to press your opponent, he has good moves for that purpose (especially his Nair - nice combo starter and good to put a pressure on a shield). It can surprise your opponent.

Blah, blah blah. There's a lot of things to say, but I'm too lazy to continue this post.

TL;DR : G&W is strong. If you don't think so, you must say that because he is black. You ****in' racist !

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think that's one positive trait I can associate with this game if the post above is my evidence. Nobody besides a few small exceptions feels totally useless! I mean obviously some chars have it stacked against them and G&W vs. fatties is always scary for G&W but like, yo, nobody feels ****ty.

It could just be me, I'm not even talking general balance, but most characters feel like they were made with some semblance of thought.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Definitely true

 

[Jabejazz]

Nobody besides a few small exceptions feels totally useless!

It's probably because there no more characters with 90% of their moveset being complete garbage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That is definitely a plus. Lots of things "flow" properly in characters now, I feel.

 

[KenMeister]

Melee Kirby: Retreat with bairs and kill with Uairs. Pray it works. lol

Also, I'd like to think it's because of the engine why movesets aren't so bad for mediocre characters like they used to be. DI being less of a thing means mulit-hit moves are finally useful. Just look at Zelda and Ness for example.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Brawl Zelda: hit fsmash a lot, hope they run into it

 

[TTTTTsd]

Brawl Ganon: Pray.

Ganon is probably the biggest example of getting better in this iteration if you ask me.

 

[KenMeister]

Melee Roy: Use Dtilt a lot and hope the DI trajectory is good enough for an Fsmash.

 

[Kofu]

Melee Kirby: Retreat with bairs and kill with Uairs. Pray it works. lol

Also, I'd like to think it's because of the engine why movesets aren't so bad for mediocre characters like they used to be. DI being less of a thing means mulit-hit moves are finally useful. Just look at Zelda and Ness for example.

Brawl's SDI (or hitstun shuffling, as the game calls it) was silly. Look at some TAS matches of Brawl to find out why. It wasn't the reason Ness got better, though. The change to make FAir drag people with it was (among other things).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Melee Kirby: Retreat with bairs and kill with Uairs. Pray it works. lol

Also, I'd like to think it's because of the engine why movesets aren't so bad for mediocre characters like they used to be. DI being less of a thing means mulit-hit moves are finally useful. Just look at Zelda and Ness for example.

You must not know about the Midwest strats.

Melee Kirby: Roll -> Utilt. It works.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think that's one positive trait I can associate with this game if the post above is my evidence. Nobody besides a few small exceptions feels totally useless! I mean obviously some chars have it stacked against them and G&W vs. fatties is always scary for G&W but like, yo, nobody feels ****ty.

It could just be me, I'm not even talking general balance, but most characters feel like they were made with some semblance of thought.

The balance is strong with this one...

Seriously, SSB4 is great, if only for that reason.

Well, I play him mainly because I like the character... I'm not a tier *****, ahah. He wouldn't have been good, I would have played him anyway. But in my opinion, he is definitely good, and he corresponds to the way I play Smash (which is still important).

He has an unique flaw : he is sooo LIGHT... Mistakes are not allowed. But basically, I love to control the pace of the game and to outsmart my opponent (and thus, to benefit from my opponent's mistakes). Game & Watch has everything I need to do that. As I already said plenty of time in this thread, G&W is probably the most defensive character of the whole game, making him also one of the most skilled one.

Hit & Run is what defines him the best. He his fast and very mobile : his dash is awesome, and he also has the UpB. That, plus all the nice spacing and zoning moves he has, makes him a very annoying character to play against (I'm happy no one plays him, actually).

For example, the Usmash allows me to punish IN REFLEX an air approach, because the upper body is invincible.
Dtilt and Uair permit to PUNISH moves that put a character in free fall (generally, an UpB), or to steal a jump.
The Ftilt may be the best FOOTSIES tool of the game. Its priority is really frightening, and it's fast and safe.

He is a beast in air-to-air, with the Dair and the Bair that are disjoincted hitboxes with a lot of priorities (the landing lag is too long now to use these moves another way - Bair is safe depending of the range, though). If you are high enough (don't smoke, guys), you can use the Dair with no landing lag, which can surprise your opponent.

His UpB is the best recovery of the game by far : quick, invincibility frames, goes high, and doesn't put you in free fall. Can also be used to punish an attack from the air. If custom are allowed, the Heavy one is ridiculous... Allows you to kill very early, and to do a lot of stupid combos.

Bucket prevents a lot of character from camping, and that's what you want since you are focussed on punishing your opponent's mistakes. It's also an easy kill move ! Though, it's useless on some match-ups, since the momentum cancel is gone... =(

I also love Judgement because if you are lucky, you can catch up with a 9 (which can now be comboed after a Dthrow at some % ranges). It's good to have that option because it can also frustrate your opponent, which will make him do more mistakes.

He has a nice throw game, by the way, this video will explain it better than me :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZWhLNl7kM4
(Even thought this isn't exhaustive...)

He also excels at edgeguarding, it's probably the best character of Smash 4 at it (even with Pikachu, maybe). He has sooo many options : UpB, Chief, Dair, Dtilt, Dsmash, Uair, Fair, Ftilt... Well, most of his move are godlike to steal a jump or a recovery move.

All his smashes are safe on block, quick, with a nice range, and kill early... The Fsmash has a great lingering hitbox (even though it's nerfed from Brawl, where it was broken), the Dsmash has a weird knockback on the sour spot that gives you kills at low percent...

Out of shield, his jab is awesome. It's his quickest move, no need to explain why it's useful, I guess...
Utilt might be his worst move, but it's still usable to start a combo (especially after a Dthrow).

You can also change your playstyle during a match and start to press your opponent, he has good moves for that purpose (especially his Nair - nice combo starter and good to put a pressure on a shield). It can surprise your opponent.

Blah, blah blah. There's a lot of things to say, but I'm too lazy to continue this post.

TL;DR : G&W is strong. If you don't think so, you must say that because he is black. You ****in' racist !

Nice.. I'll take all these as pointers when I play.

 

[Thinkaman]

At my tourney last night, in Loser's finals I had a close game 1 as Little Mac. A spectator behind me went on a loud rant on how much Ganon sucked; I went Ganon and won games 2 and 3 pretty decisively. (Though my opponent played well, especially on the last stocks.)

I'm still worried about Diddy and Sonic.

Less worried about Lucario now; everyone is killing faster.

Rosalina seems manageable, the Luma nerf really does matter. Need to see more of Sheik to judge her better. ZSS seems extremely reasonable. Falcon is also quite potent but not really abusive in any way I can tell.


I still have low faith in DDD, less faith in Olimar (better but still meh), and the least faith in Swordfighter. Besides these, I really struggle to identify the worst characters. Doc is probably not great but doesn't seem bad with vectoring gone. Luigi is a bit underwhelming but still super scary.

Gunner probably has several bad matchups? I think Gunner is WAY better with a C-stick though. Like holy crap, best retreating fair of all time. How did I not consider this as an obvious "WiiU winner"?


Edit:
Also, Mega Man is so good! How are we not talking about this guy all the time? His aerial moveset is ridiculous, even if uair and dair and nair take a LOT of getting used to.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Vectoring being gone aids the Marios in so many ways. Throw setups are now incredibly reliable and more surefire than ever before (Doc's D-Throw is ridiculous now). Diddy worries me but if he gets overpicked I feel like it will turn into a literal arms race of counterplay strats, either that or he'll be successful and then get nerfed or something, no clue.

Sonic, eh, dunno. He's silly but, yeah.

Edit:
Also, Mega Man is so good! How are we not talking about this guy all the time? His aerial moveset is ridiculous, even if uair and dair and nair take a LOT of getting used to.

Oh I know he's good but playing him is a test of awkward handling for me. Can't give a fair analysis but I think he's in a good spot.

 

[Thinkaman]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Diddy is gonna get hit with something. Whether it be people figure out how to fight him or he gets slapped like Sheik or something, A or B is going to happen. If it doesn't I'll cry because it's like the LAST issue I have with this game...

Like, Sonic is goofy and silly but there are characters that can force some form of honesty and in the end he's not too bleh for me, yet. I mean, Doc Tornado beats Spindash so I guess there's some form of bias in that....

To elaborate on vectoring being gone aiding Doc, this also makes him kill sooner. FSmash is incredibly scary. Combining that with his really good D-Throw (as of now anyways thanks to Vectoring going poof) and I think he's gotten noticeably improved by proxy of system, lets him get reliable damage more consistently which is what he wants. Nowhere out of low tier but not bottom IMO. It also helps that all of his other moves that kill besides DSmash (Bair offstage, USmash, Fair off a solid read) hit at a mostly vertical angle like FSmash does....

Keep the buffs coming...slow and steady..

 

[Jabejazz]

I still have low faith in DDD

This is also how I see it, sadly. Changes to vectoring hit him stupidly hard. He's probably, at best, on the lower end of mid tier. All because of his frame. Give his tools to Kirby, and you got a deadly *******.

That being said, and we might be beating a dead horse here, but this game's balance is impressive.

Like, Sonic is goofy and silly but there are characters that can force some form of honesty and in the end he's not too bleh for me, yet. I mean, Doc Tornado beats Spindash so I guess there's some form of bias in that....

The issue is probably that, as much as you can beat it (hell, as TripleD I can pivot grab his spin dash, FTilt, jab), Sonic just doesn't have to try to beat you. He doesn't play by your games. It's a war of attrition he usually wins by not giving two ****s about footsies.

For most of the cast, it's usually about camping in your shield, and punishing his landings.

 

[NairWizard]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

Battering Banana is great imo, because it launches opponents, and that's precisely what you want to do as Diddy since you want to land up-airs and f-airs. Banana Toss can lead to a grab, which is also cool, but the near-guaranteed followups off of Battering Banana are preferable against characters such as Rosalina--tripping Rosalina is often not enough; you want her to be away from Luma, up in the air. Hitting an offstage opponent into f-air range is also hilarious.

Other than that, nothing in his custom set is even worth taking, that's very true.

I think Sheik gets significantly better with customs, by the way, even though her defaults are good. Her customs are better at dealing with a large variety of stages and characters than most characters' customs are. For example, the side-b that pulls you in is fantastic for landing KOs against difficult-to-KO opponents, and her down-b 3 is good for general mobility against characters like Pikachu. Down-b 2 is easier to land on certain stages like Town And City than even Bouncing Fish (seriously, those platforms make landing this move super easy).

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that characters with good specials get worse and characters with bad specials get better: it's also about having additional options, not just having better options. A generally suboptimal option that improves a bad matchup into a positive or even one is often better than an option that's just flat out better but by a tiny margin.

You might be underestimating the amount that upper tiers actually gain from customs, though there's no denying that characters like Palutena stand to gain more.

But at least for Diddy and ZSS, I agree with you; they get nothing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just a trend I'm wondering about now that I've seen it come up more than once.

Mii Brawler has a hard to do, super situation 0-Death hit in his up B.

Ike has this: http://i.imgur.com/ZF1ZJwn.gif

Just how many characters can theoretically kill at 0% off the top? Like, not how likely it is, but how many have the mathematical possibility with rage and stuff like that kicking in against a featherweight? Because if you think about it, that's some pretty crazy knockback even with rage/jumping/weight factors accounted for. Is Lucario able to do that with Uair? I would think that's possible with Aura/Rage/Jumping/Featherweight target.

 

[NairWizard]

Also, I've seen people say that the absence of vectoring and smaller blastzones/lower ceilings benefits X or Y character due to faster killing, but really they benefit everyone in the cast except for Lucario. Or rather, it's often a zero-sum game.

Yes, Sheik and Doc kill earlier, but they also get killed earlier and can't stay in Rage as long.
Yes, Bowser dies earlier, but he also kills even earlier than he already did.

Lucario is unique in that he double-loses from earlier kills: both Rage and Aura are affected. Other than that, it's a "good for everyone, thus good for no one" kind of deal.

Actually, that's not quite true. Some characters do benefit more than others, but it's hard to see at first. Smash Shulk benefits a lot because his *tilts* will actually become KO options at %s where only his smashes would have killed before. Having new KO options is a huge deal.

Ness and characters with a kill throw benefit because putting the fear of grab -> KOs into your opponent at a much earlier percent is a huge deal: it changes the game and the way your opponent has to play.

Absence of vectoring does improve certain followups, but that's a different matter.

 

[Emblem Lord]

kinda want to make a big article about footsies, the 3 states of game play and traps.

if its not up by the end of thanksgiving then i have given up on it but for now its still in the works.

 

[Flamecircle]

Diddy's custome upB 3 is actually really fantastic. The person who got second? in the west coast of the reddit tourney used it to great effect. He can just quickly fly into you from basically anywhere and leave a fairly deadly explosion.

megaman is great, athough people are using the uppercut way less than I assumed they would. An issue with him is that it's pretty hard to kill without catching someone with an upsmash, since Bair out of shield sadly knocks down before the kill hit, and without safer kill options to bait out unsafe attempts to get in, it's hard to land an uppercut after a surprise change to defense.

 

[Terotrous]

Besides the possible special case of Rosalina, Diddy benefits more from no customs than anyone. It's increasingly obvious that all his defaults are optimal, with Monkey Flip and Banana Toss being top-tier moves.

Even Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS, and Jigglypuff get SOME options with customs. Diddy gets nothing.


Or the better way of looking at it, Diddy is the only character in the game lucky enough to have his best options as his defaults.

IMO Yoshi 1111 is his best set too. I could see 1131 having use against Villager, since you can throw the piercing egg through his tree. I would never swap out the other three moves though.

 

[Chuva]

The more I play Gunner, the more I feel it is Samus done right:

Nair is fast, with little lag and very good sweeping arc hitbox, Fair is extremely good at keeping people away and poking, jab is much more reliable than Samus', retreating pivot Ftilt has swordman character's range. Grab is better in most situations. Gunner overall CQC is a lot more functional.

Grenade Launch is CRAZY. That thing can control space mid/long-range so well because of the lasting hitbox and is relatively fast both in start-up and recovery (you can almost have two grenade explosion hitboxes active at the same time). It has similar properties of Arcfire so you can create mixups like going for a grab during the active hitbox and you can also combo out of it (Fair connects reasonably). You can also create a lot of trap situations especially with Grenades -> Fsmash because of Fsmash's range and multihit properties.

Add Gunner's Missile and you have a way of forcing enemies into mid range and into grenades traps. The homing properties from Gunner's Missile feels a lot more flexible compared to Samus' variant. You can even combo your aerials with an already fired missile because of how slow and vertical it can fly. It just feels better for pressure.

Gunner is also more competent at killing. Dtilt and Utilt are faster and actually kills, some smashes are either faster or have better properties (Usmash hits connects better than Samus'). Even Grenade Launch has reasonable kill-power and can also be used as edge guard.

And finally, Gunner's physics feels more adequate for the character archetype. It's not floaty like Samus and more smooth to position yourself in the air. I'm still practicing and testing but so far Gunner seems to have the best tools for a zoning/keep-away character.

 

[Terotrous]

The more I play Gunner, the more I feel it is Samus done right.

I agree. Don't forget standard grab, which helps a lot too. I also feel about this way for Brawler, with Little Mac. Brawler still retains that fist-fighter archetype without being a stupidly polarizing character like LM is.

But the real question is, what the hell does this make Swordfighter? He basically seems like Link done very, very wrong.

 

[Nobie]

I don't know enough about Mii Sword Fighter to give a fair assessment as either good or bad, but one thing that I notice about the character is how many of its specials are movement-based. It essentially has Ike's Side B, Link's Up B, and a Falcon Kick with a disjointed hitbox. I don't know if it all comes together or if it's just redundant, but having a character with this amount of "get from point a to point b" attacks feels like it has some potential to be a really weaselly opponent.

As for Ganondorf vs. Little Mac, I honestly believe that it's one of the most exciting matchups in the entire game. Little Mac should have the advantage generally with his oodles of armor, superior ground mobility, and on-par KO power with Ganondorf, but at the same time there's probably no character who fears a successful Ganondorf punish more than Little Mac, especially now with the loss of vectoring. A solid boot to the face at mid-high percentages could very well end Little Mac's stock.

Mega Man I think suffers from what we can probably now call Palutena Syndrome. He's probably not to the level of Palutena, especially when factoring in customs, but I think too many people when the game first came out were members of the Church of Combos and Short Hops. They saw Mega Man, who has very few combos, and who has no low-lag approach on short hop without some serious finger dexterity with the neutral air, and determined that he doesn't have the potential to go toe to toe with the big boys as a result of this.

I also believe that on some level the more you've played and mastered Smash Bros. in general the worse Mega Man can feel because his attacks and the way they follow up on each other is so counter-intuitive. Up smash to build damge but up tilt to KO? Using down tilt to escape when the opponent is behind you during footsies? Existing almost primarily as a mid-range fighter? His stuff works together but when you put it all in place, it's almost like you're not even playing Smash Bros. anymore. I won't go as far as to say that it's just like playing Mega Man games as that's not quite the case either, but it's so different an experience that I think switching to and from Mega Man between matches can feel super awkward. I also think people didn't appreciate the versatility of his off-stage game enough. Attacking out of Up B? Being able to save your 2nd jump to use after your Up B (something neither G&W nor Sonic can do)? With the c-stick especially, you can even go super deep to meteor with the Hard Knuckle while still using its projectile properties to keep you safe from harm.

One last thing: I honestly don't know if this would work against a truly competent opponent but I do a super dumb thing whenever I face Little Macs. As soon as they get the KO punch, I will up B, and then air dodge back into the Rush Coil to restore my Up B and just do that over and over again. It should be possible to connect with an attack during this, but a lot of Little Macs are just afraid to leave the ground, and if I sense that they're catching on I can just as easily land away.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think Megaman is terrible, but I do feel that he has to work really hard for results that other characters can achieve more easily. The fact that his moveset is so heavily projectile based is also pretty polarizing, his matchups against characters who can reflect or absorb projectiles seem pretty horrible.

 

[Asdioh]

Mega Man I think suffers from what we can probably now call Palutena Syndrome. He's probably not to the level of Palutena, especially when factoring in customs, but I think too many people when the game first came out were members of the Church of Combos and Short Hops. They saw Mega Man, who has very few combos, and who has no low-lag approach on short hop without some serious finger dexterity with the neutral air, and determined that he doesn't have the potential to go toe to toe with the big boys as a result of this.

What's Palutena Syndrome? If I had to guess, it would be that people thought she was bottom tier garbage when the game came out, but then people learned better?
I know that I played some really good Palutenas (like Jerm) about a week after 3ds release, and all I could think was "why are people calling this a trash character?"

 

[Terotrous]

What's Palutena Syndrome? If I had to guess, it would be that people thought she was bottom tier garbage when the game came out, but then people learned better?
I know that I played some really good Palutenas (like Jerm) about a week after 3ds release, and all I could think was "why are people calling this a trash character?"

Basically, people wrote this character off at a glance because their moveset was weird / unconventional, but they're actually good.

 

[Locke 06]

The fact that his moveset is so heavily projectile based is also pretty polarizing, his matchups against characters who can reflect or absorb projectiles seem pretty horrible.

False statement is false. If you want to try and reflect/absorb all of the metal blades, crash bombs, and pellets, most mega man users will encourage that. It means you're playing defensive while all of their reflected projectiles can be canceled by a single pellet. It's a lot more trouble than it's worth, especially if you get baited to use the reflector (utilt punish). With the exception of falco and palutena, due to their reflectors projecting out, using reflectors in neutral is usually a losing strategy.

 

[Flamecircle]

I don't think Megaman is terrible, but I do feel that he has to work really hard for results that other characters can achieve more easily. The fact that his moveset is so heavily projectile based is also pretty polarizing, his matchups against characters who can reflect or absorb projectiles seem pretty horrible.

It's shockingly not that bad, because crashbomb is barely used, pellets cancel each other, and metal blade usually doesn't have the right trajectory to hit megaman off a reflect. Not only that, but all of these actions are usually done laglessly at midrange, so megaman often can punish the reflect move.

Also, Megaman actually has really great physical moves in bair and fair, and a really good grab. He doesn't struggle nearly as much as say, Samus.

On the topic of Mii Gunner- Yes, this is exactly what samus should have been. I'm trying to unlock a mii samus helmet so I can call a mii "Better Samus."

Seriously though, Gunner has everything. A BETTER homing missile, charge shot, a better bomb drop, a quick and deadly dsmash, Villager's fair, a quick killing bair, a nair that has such long active frames that it's almost a sex kick, the safest uair ever, megaman's dair, samus' usmash but low enough to actually hit someone...

I'm going to stop before I list all of the Mii gunner's moves. Seriously though. Gunner is probably the best zoner in the game, and a very good fighter overall.

Edit: I guess Gunner's recovery is kinda meh, though.

 

[Ffamran]

What's Palutena Syndrome? If I had to guess, it would be that people thought she was bottom tier garbage when the game came out, but then people learned better?
I know that I played some really good Palutenas (like Jerm) about a week after 3ds release, and all I could think was "why are people calling this a trash character?"

Shouldn't it be Sonic Syndrome? Hmm, who was the first character in SSB history to have been written off as utter trash before they made it around mid to high tier? As far as I know, the earliest is Sonic in Brawl.

 

[NairWizard]

Shouldn't it be Sonic Syndrome? Hmm, who was the first character in SSB history to have been written off as utter trash before they made it around mid to high tier? As far as I know, the earliest is Sonic in Brawl.

Melee Jigglypuff wants a word with you (like 19th on original tier list iirc).

 

[Nobie]

False statement is false. If you want to try and reflect/absorb all of the metal blades, crash bombs, and pellets, most mega man users will encourage that. It means you're playing defensive while all of their reflected projectiles can be canceled by a single pellet. It's a lot more trouble than it's worth, especially if you get baited to use the reflector (utilt punish). With the exception of falco and palutena, due to their reflectors projecting out, using reflectors in neutral is usually a losing strategy.

Speaking of projectiles, having the better recovery on Leaf Shield is such a boon when fighting other projectile-oriented characters. It used to be that the Links' arrows would trade with most of Mega Man's attacks while being able to out-range things like the charge shot that could trade, but the Leaf Shield pierces and goes through most projectiles and now allows Mega Man to actually follow up.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes, you could say Melee Jiggs was quite...

SLEPT ON.

I'd honestly be fine with Jigglypuff syndrome.

 

[Ffamran]

Melee Jigglypuff wants a word with you (like 19th on original tier list iirc).

I tried looking through the tier history and it was lagging for whatever reason, so I stopped. Welp, look's like it's going to be officially known as Jigglypuff Syndrome... Why does that sound like some weird eating disorder?

Yes, you could say Melee Jiggs was quite...

SLEPT ON.

I'd honestly be fine with Jigglypuff syndrome.

She was resting in peace before she rolled out a song of bloody pounding. Get puffed up, yo!

 

[Flamecircle]

Speaking of projectiles, having the better recovery on Leaf Shield is such a boon when fighting other projectile-oriented characters. It used to be that the Links' arrows would trade with most of Mega Man's attacks while being able to out-range things like the charge shot that could trade, but the Leaf Shield pierces and goes through most projectiles and now allows Mega Man to actually follow up.

Too bad the reward on hit is so low that it's basically not worth it. Not sure why they made that so lackluster.