Character Competitive Impressions

[Flamecircle]

But now I really want to try to take a couple of games off of @Ray_Kalm, just for the kicks.

The kicks you'll be forcing solidsense to eat, amirite

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's worth noting, Ray_Kalm has trained under Gungnir, THE best Ganondorf in the world.

/shameless promoting

I don't think anyone here is trying to say Ganondorf is great. But he's probably viable, and he can't be slept on competitively, especially when he's actually had some non-trivial success in tournament as we speak now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well no he's not the paragon of excellent but he's far from trash tier now. The future is at the very least, on a regional tournament level, brighter for him than Brawl.

 

[Iron Kraken]

The kicks you'll be forcing solidsense to eat, amirite

Mhmm. (Even if I'm more likely to get my teeth kicked in... a man can dream)

It's worth noting, Ray_Kalm has trained under Gungnir, THE best Ganondorf in the world.

/shameless promoting

I don't think anyone here is trying to say Ganondorf is great. But he's probably viable, and he can't be slept on competitively, especially when he's actually had some non-trivial success in tournament as we speak now.

I never said Ganondorf wasn't viable. I think every character in this game is basically "viable." And I saw videos of that Ganondorf that finished 2nd in a major Japanese tournament.

It was just my contention that the Rosalina/Ganondorf match up heavily favors Rosalina.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

At the very least Ganon commands respect out of certain MUs/situations in Smash 4, unlike in Brawl where 90% of the cast didn't give two ****s about any of his buttons.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Big O]

I think the problem most people are really having with rolls is that rolling to avoid attacks and stay safe isn't too hard. Oddly enough, punishing rolls isn't too hard either so I don't really see why there is so much qq about it for offline play.

I can see why it gets so many complaints from people who's competitive experience is limited to the FG environment. In random/heavy input lag scenarios, it is often less risky to spam roll and hope the enemy whiffs something than to space/time attacks properly.

Honestly, rolls are largely the same as Brawl's overall. There just happens to be less of a gap between the bad ones and good ones. Rolling away isn't a big deal considering they don't gain anything from it. They are not in a position to punish you afterwards and they have less of the stage to work with. Eventually, they run out of room to roll away and end up closer to the blastzones.

I don't know how Ganon and Falcon got mentioned as people who struggle to punish rolling when they both have 2 special moves that make punishing them very easy. Falcon's speed makes punishing them pretty easy too...

As for Marth being unable to punish rolls, Dashing Assault (Neutral B 3) makes punishing pretty much any lag within half of FD's length trivial. Customs aside, Dancing Blade catches rolls too. I just don't see how Marth can be considered bad at dealing with rolls.

 

[san.]

Had no problems vs rolls once I had a Gamecube controller + offline. It should be easy to punish with Marth Fsmash on reaction vs a roll.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't know if it's the rolls that got buffed, the dash attacks that got buffed, the grabs that got nerfed or any combination of these three factors ... but if you whiff a grab against a roll you're often at such a frame disadvantage that you can get hit by the dash attack afterwards. I find that to be poor game design. A move with so little risk should not have the capability to create openings like that.

 

[Nabbitnator]

For someone who wants to get more into the competitive scene who is a good sub for peach? like someone who can cover her bad matches?

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm a little late to the party, but if my opinion's worth anything, Ganon's definitely more viable than in Brawl. I feel capable of winning tournaments now, whereas in Brawl, I felt the need to perform miracles to place well. I think Ganon is definitely capable of placing moderately well now. Though, his weaknesses are the same as they ever were, principally, so he'll still struggle.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't know if it's the rolls that got buffed, the dash attacks that got buffed, the grabs that got nerfed or any combination of these three factors ... but if you whiff a grab against a roll you're often at such a frame disadvantage that you can get hit by the dash attack afterwards. I find that to be poor game design. A move with so little risk should not have the capability to create openings like that.

Haven't really felt this unless I went for a dash grab.

 

[NairWizard]

For someone who wants to get more into the competitive scene who is a good sub for peach? like someone who can cover her bad matches?

imo the perspective you should be approaching this from goes like this line of self-questioning: "Against which characters do I have the most trouble when I play Peach? Are these matchups that I can learn to adapt to, or is learning to adapt a larger time investment than just picking up a counterpick character?"

It's about you, not Peach as a character.

Having said that, I'd say Jigglypuff, Ike, Shulk, Diddy Kong, Ness, and characters with huge aerials in general are on the more problematic side for Peach. She's really floaty and susceptible to strong aerials in both neutral and in disadvantage. She can handle Sheik and others easily enough though imo.

 

[Big O]

Don't know if it's the rolls that got buffed, the dash attacks that got buffed, the grabs that got nerfed or any combination of these three factors ... but if you whiff a grab against a roll you're often at such a frame disadvantage that you can get hit by the dash attack afterwards. I find that to be poor game design. A move with so little risk should not have the capability to create openings like that.

This is not the case with most grabs. Unless you have a laggy grab like Little Mac or a tether grab, the only time you can get punished by someone who rolls is if they rolled well before you even started the grab. In general, grabs and rolls end at roughly the same time.

 

[Signia]

I have a lot of hesitation to putting too much game design emphasis on something as blunt and discriminatory as reaction time. I think it's just a really poor skill to focus on, and have a lot of sympathy for people with poor reaction times who want to still play Smash.

So when *I* say that rolls are easy to punish, that should tell you something.


Average human reaction time is 15 frames.

Average hardcore video game player reaction time is ~10 frames.

A roll is ~30 frames.

Zero sympathy.

That's way too simplistic a way to think about it. There's getting to an actionable state, physically inputting the punish (input time), the move's startup, and the time it takes to get close enough into consideration. Also you can't necessarily tell someone is rolling from the first frame, so the first frame that confirms that a roll is occurring matters as well. All these things add up.

And of course you should know that that figure is based on non-choice-based reaction, right? You'd have to be standing still and completely focused on watching for the roll spark for your model to be even remotely tied to reality.

So it comes as no surprise to me that in Soul Calbur 5, nobody can block a perfect Yoshimitsu iFC3K (i22 if done perfectly) on reaction (yes this includes their top players), even though the first few frames are a tell (you have to crouch first and then press down-forward kick). And blocking low only takes one frame. There are tons of other lows in the game that are between i15 and i20 and are "unreactable" as well, and it's a running joke in the community to claim you can block them, since it's a classic noob mistake to overestimate one's reaction time.

This "Average human time is 15 frames" figure would have you believe that you can block standard i15 low kicks on reaction. Hah!


Of course, there's still enough time to punish rolls that end up very close to you. What, you dash grabbed someone who rolled, and you started dashing after they started rolling? They probably were just shielding, you didn't get the punish, you just guessed right on the mixup. To really beat rolls that aren't landing right next to you, you need to be consciously covering that option,among others, if your character can, and be in position to punish.

There's more to it than "lol my score on http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime is below .500s/30f."

Also, only on Smashboards is a 2-frame 4-input DACUS command "simple" and "everyone can do it", but a 30 frame roll eludes human reaction time.

That has nothing to do with reaction time.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I keep hearing people mention how Falco really needs some more use. I've been toying with him and find him really fitting me a bit. I'm curious if anyone in here would be willing to write a more details "why" on why Falco is good, and maybe explain the very basics of how he should be played and why it works. Any takers?

 

[Shaya]

Rolling into Marth on reaction to whiffs is a viable strategy.
But so is doing the same against just about everyone. That's high level use of rolling that most high to top level brawl players are used to.

You can't just spam rolls against Marth though, lol. If you play me on for glory and all you're going to do is roll away and charge a projectile in enough frame delay that I can't even short hop, congratulations, rolls hard counter Marth in this situation.

I keep hearing people mention how Falco really needs some more use. I've been toying with him and find him really fitting me a bit. I'm curious if anyone in here would be willing to write a more details "why" on why Falco is good, and maybe explain the very basics of how he should be played and why it works. Any takers?

All of his moves that send vertically.
They all can combo into uair/bair.
At kill percent.
Know all the various knockbacks and ideal percent for all your vertical sending moves.

Jab, ftilt everything, and dash attack for the punish tool. Voila

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rolling against a whiffed fsmash gives you a frame advantage. That fsmash is not free, sorry. Marth in all his iterations has an ideal distance to space from his opponent, even Brawl's WNBA Marth. He can't keep that distance very effectively in Smash 4 and he doesn't have a strong enough punish game even when he does catch it. This isn't even a "rolls are so strong" post. This is a "Marth is low tier trash" because he can't punish rolls very well post. Obviously the top tier characters have a much easier time against roll-spamming but that's why they're up there and Marth is down here.

That's why Falcon and Ganon are so awful too. They're so straightforward as characters that it's very easy to abuse the safety of rolling against them. It's why they're ****ty character designs outside of the Melee engine where their speed/power/combos give them such a solid punish game that they're worthwhile.

There won't be any top tiers without a projectile in Smash 4.

Im trying really hard to not get banned. I will let the others contend with you.

 

[Kofu]

Don't know if it's the rolls that got buffed, the dash attacks that got buffed, the grabs that got nerfed or any combination of these three factors ... but if you whiff a grab against a roll you're often at such a frame disadvantage that you can get hit by the dash attack afterwards. I find that to be poor game design. A move with so little risk should not have the capability to create openings like that.

I know this is more in reference to grabs, but I think the lessening of shieldstun helps dash attacks to be a lot more usable. For most characters they're a viable way to punish attacks on shield if they're not in grab range.

As far as grabs go it seems like most grab ranges got nerfed a little.

 

[Trifroze]

Reaction time of 15 frames is very practical and possible, but that's assuming you're already anticipating something. Reacting without anticipation or reacting and having to confirm what it is you're reacting to (good example is hit/block confirmation in fighting games) usually takes longer.

Meanwhile, any characters that can contest or overwhelm rushdown characters like Sheik, Sonic or Greninja preferably without being rushdown characters (or Rosalina) themselves? Trying to figure out a complementing secondary for Robin who so far seems to be at least somewhat unfavored in those match-ups. How's Shulk? Just throwing him out there as all I know of him is that he can kill fairly early and seems to have a good reach.

 

[ZHMT]

The main reasons people think rolls are so good are that moves in general in this game have less active frames. Also people react to rolls and try to punish them when they are at frame disadvantage all the time. This gives them a false impression that rolls are too good or whatever. Realistically if you stand still and they roll behind you, anyone should be able to punish that, if you can't its a player issue, not the game. If they roll away, most characters don't have a fast enough ground speed to punish it, just walk in the direction they rolled and reset the situation as they have less stage to work with behind them now. Rolls are fine in this game, people don't understand the idea of being punished by losing space.

People bringing up Marth and how he had issues with rolling are half right in my opinion. Marth can have a tough time with smart and calculated rolls, but has tools to punish any roll if they realise that its a possibility. He's one of the best characters at throwing out a move, generally dtilt on shield and rolling behind Marth in response is free damage for Marth.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulk can give Sheik and Greninja a good match no comment on Sonic.
Im trying to see if a Buster N-air causes enough shield stun to allow the grab/Jab at different spacings, but outside of current experimentation It's going on Speed and being able to match her chase and walk out of her range then pivot ftilt or Dash grab back right in. Shulks fast enough to chase her relatively deep for the edgeguard before she can get in range to confirm her vanish to the ledge. Speed Shulks run speed is number 1 in the game, you can walk back retaining all your options, faster then half the rosters Dash.

Now to compliment Robin? I don't know about that. My current compliments to Shulk are Pit and R.O.B. Other characters that can go for the edge-guard on a real level, but they both have reflectors and projectiles as alternative to shulks speed. The upper echelons of this game for the most part areprojectile users. When I tried to put Robin in, it didn't work for me. Potent as he is, I didn't feel he and Shulk meshed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Would generally (but not totally) agree. Fast fall uair is pretty similar to brawl marth fair btw.

I was referring to generally mobility as well as the strong ability to create traps from neutral reliably that reset into themselves or transition to other traps.

 

[Tagxy]

That's way too simplistic a way to think about it. There's getting to an actionable state, physically inputting the punish (input time), the move's startup, and the time it takes to get close enough into consideration. Also you can't necessarily tell someone is rolling from the first frame, so the first frame that confirms that a roll is occurring matters as well. All these things add up.

And of course you should know that that figure is based on non-choice-based reaction, right? You'd have to be standing still and completely focused on watching for the roll spark for your model to be even remotely tied to reality.

Rolls are different. Shielding and distance provide a huge tell on when rolls will occur, so its really not a hard thing to focus on when youre paying attention. Arguably instant non shielded defensive rolls cannot be punished on reaction, but the option itself is fairly pointless.

 

[Shaya]

What most people don't understand either about rolls and how people react to them.

Shielding is an 18 frame commitment in this game if nothing hits it (brawl was 14).
If your reaction to someone moving towards you (which could be the roll animation) is to shield, you're putting yourself at a frame disadvantage assuming 10 frames of reaction speed. Obviously you could roll yourself, spot dodge, jump; but not unshield into an action.

 

[Zelder]

I also think that a lot of people get salty about rolls because they play online (with bad connections), where repeated rolling can admittedly be super annoying.

Honestly that's one of the biggest "tells" of a scrub that doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[LiteralGrill]

All of his moves that send vertically.
They all can combo into uair/bair.
At kill percent.
Know all the various knockbacks and ideal percent for all your vertical sending moves.

Jab, ftilt everything, and dash attack for the punish tool. Voila

Having messed around with him, may I add that his Fair can drag people down sometimes for gimps too? I was so happy to make that happen. I think I got a new main here seriously.

 

[Minordeth]

Man. Charizard. Playing with him and Palutena with a (Sort of functioning) c-stick makes me re-evalute them. Charizard's absurd punishes and Nair make me happy. Palutena feels like such a massive rush-down character, it's odd, given my perception of her, early on. Her ultimate-priority attacks, couple with strong grabs and mix-ups also make me happy.

I mean, I won't ever not main Ganon, but I'll be damned if they aren't vying for a strong sub.

Edit - everyone expects that flare blitz, but that d-grab is just gorgeous.

 

[Shaya]

Having messed around with him, may I add that his Fair can drag people down sometimes for gimps too? I was so happy to make that happen. I think I got a new main here seriously.

Previous patch it was significantly better. They kinda killed fair as this "just throw it out off stage and if anything comes near it they die", the individual hits spiked, if you traded a recovery/attack with him, you'd die. Those individual hit changes also made it so that it doesn't "suck people in" or keep them there, making it a lot easier to avoid all the hits (if you're ffing off stage with it or something, you'll only hit them once out of the many hits and won't get anything out of it).

It's good, but it's no longer drill pick-tier. :<

 

[DanGR]

Interesting side-note about rolling: Megaman's forward roll is a spitting image of the first 3/4ths of his full foxtrot animation. It's quite deceptive.

 

[Nobie]

I have this theory on the ecology of For Glory, which is that the aspects which frustrate and become crutches for newer/inexperienced players influence and exacerbate each other.

The three things that people complain about most are rolling, projectile spam, and Little Mac.

Two universal aspects which influence this are the FD-only stages, and lag which can make rolls better than they really are. People get the idea that rolls are really good (partially because people think the best way to play would be to roll around and hope to land a hit). The best rolls in the game (I think?) are Little Mac's, who is also really simple to use at a base level, never leaves the ground so he rolls more often than anyone else, and is also really good at punishing rolls when attacking randomly compared to others. In response, more and more people switch to characters who can fight mediocre Little Macs by using projectiles to hit him from afar, which results in the roll, roll, roll, projectiles Samus/Duck Hunt/Link strategies. This creates more Little Macs who are again good at dealing with rolls and projectiles, which perpetuates the cycle of frustration.

 

[Gunla]

Rolls are primarily a problem online, mainly because of the small lag that comes with opponents with middling or poor connection.

With local matches on wireless or offline on the Wii U version, I find that rolling is nowhere near the problem that it deceptively appears to be online. If one's having trouble reading them and your punishing is "just a tad off", it's likely just a connection issue tampering with your inputs and reads online. Even then, some opponents foolishly think that rolling is a great way to win, when it's just the opposite; once they start becoming repetitious, read their inputs and punish them.

 

[hariooo]

Did anyone watch KTARXI? M2K wasn't playing online I'm just saying.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Previous patch it was significantly better. They kinda killed fair as this "just throw it out off stage and if anything comes near it they die", the individual hits spiked, if you traded a recovery/attack with him, you'd die. Those individual hit changes also made it so that it doesn't "suck people in" or keep them there, making it a lot easier to avoid all the hits (if you're ffing off stage with it or something, you'll only hit them once out of the many hits and won't get anything out of it).

It's good, but it's no longer drill pick-tier. :<

If you use it RIGHT before you hit the ground it can have lag, but if the first hit comes out right it's a decent kill move, unexpected too. I keep occasionally shooting lasers faster at random moments too. I'm trying to figure out if it's just my head or if I found a tech of some kind.

 

[Conda]

There are different kinds of playstyles to take into account. Let's take 2 playstyles for instance: those who toss out attacks in neutral to punish potential approaches and cover space, and those who move around playing a pure waiting game.

Rolls are hard to punish if you are one of the former players, as you'll likely be stuck in endlag, or committed to a sh fair or something or other. Your opponent's rolls are things that you have to deal with once your current committed decision is complete.

If you are the latter kind of player, you are more often in a position to act quickly as things like fox trotting, dash dancing, and standing still can be quickly acted out of.

There are also players who toss out attacks that don't even have a potential chance of hitting. F-throw to jump + fair, when your opponent already DId upwards and is way behind+above you. This kind of recklessness can sometimes provide obstacles for your opponent if they are being reckless themselves, but it provides easy opportunities for good players to punish you.

These players will also find that either 1) they are too preoccupied on mentally completing certain actions, or 2) their character is stuck in animations and preventing them from reacting when they want to. This also hinders their ability to react to rolls.

 

[Ffamran]

I keep hearing people mention how Falco really needs some more use. I've been toying with him and find him really fitting me a bit. I'm curious if anyone in here would be willing to write a more details "why" on why Falco is good, and maybe explain the very basics of how he should be played and why it works. Any takers?

Yay! Another Falco player! Welcome to our humble community of... 7 people...

Aside from the character discussion dedicated to Falco which can give you more info from players using Falco, the biggest strengths Falco has is that pretty much all of his attacks are strong considering his weight class. His tilts are all good with D-tilt being a potential killer, U-tilt being a combo setup, and S-tilt being a fantastic spacer. Falco has about 4 ground spacers: Reflector, Blaster, Down Smash, and his S-tilt.

Up Smash is a good combo move, Side Smash remains as a powerful kill move, but it's more like Ike's now where it's a slow, but powerful hit, and Down Smash can be both a kill and spacing move.

In the air, Falco's Bair and Fair are his kill tools with Bair being able to kill early through raw damage and knockback while Fair can gimp - not so much since you can't fast fall drag anymore as of patch 1.04 - people off-stage as well as being a good combo move. Nair is a good approach tool since it's fast and has little end lag - more so with the 1.04's changes - and while it won't completely connect all the hits, if it does, then I believe it's a good kill move as well - it's just not reliable compared to Bair and Fair. Dair is usable, but not like in Melee or Brawl. Now, it's like most fighters' spikes and meteor that are either wind-up or stall and falls. It's not going to be a reliable kill move and you can't spam it, but it can be used for stuff - you'll have to ask others on this.

Specials-wise, none of Falco's are bad and his customs either improve or slightly change his play style compared Ganondorf, Ike, and Dr. Mario who drastically change or become much better. By default, Falco's most useful special is his Reflector which interrupts, reflects - it's in the name -, and setups along with the occasional chance of tripping. It comes out fast and covers decent range so, it's a great spacing tool. Blaster, as of patch 1.04, is much better, but even then, it's another good spacing tool. Don't spam it, but I think you can combo with it, I don't know how and what. All I remember is that somehow, you do something and can get off three shots that basically locks down, but only for three shots.

Falco Phantasm remains a good move and a better recovery since it no longer puts Falco into helpless mode. As an approach, it's fast, but probably predictable once you start using it over and over and the opponent catches on - see, kids, don't charge your projectiles right when the fight starts or spam moves. Fire Bird's, well, Fire Bird. I don't use it much for anything, but vertical recovery.

As a fighter, Falco's solid; he and Fox are like the jacks of trades in this game so, I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the dead center of the tier list. As a veteran, he's probably the most different compared to Link who got buffed and gained his classic Jump Attack, Ganondorf who went from zero to a motherfreaking beast, Meta Knight who got "fixed", and Sheik who gained two different specials with one making up for the lack of transformations. Falco not only gained different moves - his Up Smash and Bair -, but gained a different play style. It's like going from Metal Gear Solid 2 Raiden who sneaked around to Metal Gear Rising Raiden who massacred everything in his path; two completely different play styles. Those, however, were stated, while Falco's wasn't. Nobody was informed of Falco's changes until they played as him.

To me, Falco seems like a fusion of Brawl Wolf - we don't know if he's returning and how much he's going to change; for all we know he could come back as with some of Snake's move set or something - and his past incarnations. So, he can't short hop lasers anymore, he can't chain grab - nobody can anymore -, and his Dair isn't lightning fast, that doesn't mean he's bad or "that ain't Falco".

Falco and Meta Knight changed severely so, that probably threw people off and knowing people, they just couldn't accept the changes and complained about how their favorite character was nerfed or that they plain suck goat milk which I heard is actually tasty, but I digress. Well, then prove them that Falco, Meta Knight, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, Ganondorf, etc. are good then!

Look at what happened to Sonic in Brawl. Early on, he was written off as trash, but dedicated players showed people what the underhog could do. It's made worse because everyone is focused on the "top tier" characters and letting "low tiers" or the "forgettable" basically become assassins who watch their every move and exploit all of their weaknesses with the big one being: not knowing how to fight that "trash tier".

In Brawl, it was proven that there are broken characters who were either too good or too bad. Case in point: Meta Knight and Ganondorf. Now, in SSB4, there aren't any broken characters - as far as we know, hell, Mewtwo could start wrecking stuff with a recent glitch or something in the future -, and "low tier" characters aren't bad. It's just that everything they do, someone else can do better, but that doesn't mean they're Brawl Ganondorf bad who couldn't stand up to a freaking leaf Pikmin named Steve. They can still hold their own. As for "top tiers", they're beatable unlike Brawl Meta Knight who broke the game.

Everyone's relevant now. The more people write off characters, the harder they will come back. Oh, and don't forget about patches existing now. This won't be another Melee or Brawl where characters stay fixed on their spots or stay broken. Characters will change for the better or the worst.

 

[FimPhym]

Regarding for glory, lag, and rolls I think a little much is made of the lag. On most connections, I find it pretty easy to punish rolls and for lack of a local scene I have an embarrassingly high number of online games. As shaya said, not reflexively shielding makes this a lot easier.

I feel like the thing being glossed over is this: in for glory, most players are fiercely mediocre. Of those players, the ones that roll constantly are even worse. Against such players, it won't kill you to make a hard read now and then. It's already been said that inward rolls are laughably easy to punish, but even away rolls are really chumpy online. I regularly find myself punishing back rolls with dedede dash attack for a satisfyingly low percent kill. If I can make that read, and the fat, slow dedede can make that punish, then I promise anyone reading this thread can catch them all day.

If you are fighting a friend online who is good at the game, or an occasional good for glory player, and they use dodge sparingly enough that you can't make easy reads? Sure, that is probably rough. Online play will never quite match offline but that's not news to anyone.

 

[Browny]

The more important question: are you? Are you playing smash 4? :O

Yep

I boycott smash 3DS because its nothing but a scam to get people to buy the same game twice, but I've preordered the WiiU version.

Fun times ahead when zss, sonic and lucario are all looking high tier while marth got smacked with a nerf bat

:>

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh, God. I didn't even realize.

@ Browny ?! Now it's a ****ing party up in here.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nabbitnator]

imo the perspective you should be approaching this from goes like this line of self-questioning: "Against which characters do I have the most trouble when I play Peach? Are these matchups that I can learn to adapt to, or is learning to adapt a larger time investment than just picking up a counterpick character?"

It's about you, not Peach as a character.

Having said that, I'd say Jigglypuff, Ike, Shulk, Diddy Kong, Ness, and characters with huge aerials in general are on the more problematic side for Peach. She's really floaty and susceptible to strong aerials in both neutral and in disadvantage. She can handle Sheik and others easily enough though imo.

I'm not blaming peach but having a secondary character to help in troublesome match ups do help me for personal match up issues. Somethings don't connect in certain match ups while maybe another character might connect. In any fighter that is a good thing to do. Is Jiggly really an issue with peach? I feel like in that match I have to wait and punish with peach.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Omg did anyone watch Shockwave 8? Wobbles was there and he mains wii fit trainer now. This is great he can help advance wii fit trainers metagame. Tbh I never expected him to use her but I'm happy he is.