Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

Did you happen to host matches with that Luigi player Capps talked about? Genuinely curious about that myself.
I've played a few really good Luigi players, and their potential for combo game really threw me off at start. Like, much better than both Marios.
And that was before 1.0.4.

Now that vectoring is no more, I feel Luigi might be better than what we think.

Naw that was west coast, I did east coast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Radical Larry its pretty clear to me you have no idea what I'm talking about.

It's also clear you have no concept of the game within the game.

 

[Conda]

(except Toon Link; his customs are bad

Only if you don't see the potential for playstyle and strat alternatives. Fire Arrow is one of the best pk-fire/arcfire/etc moves in the game for stage control. Low fuse bomb makes you play toon link totally differently. Heck, both moves do - you can't pick those customs as toon link but try to play him the same way, it's not gonna work. They are very game-changing customs for him.

 

[Tagxy]

Your fear of Lucina is not warranted. She tends to do 1% more on her attacks compared to Marths sourspot.

Also she does not have Marths hitlag modifiers. This means all of her attacks are ALWAYS less safe on block then Marth. Different moves do vary but general rule of thumb is that she is around 2 frames worse on disadvantage on block compared to Marth for all her moves. To beat Lucina just dash into shield. If she shieldbreakers you can spot dodge on reaction. The move is 19 frames. Block her stuff and punish. She is far less safe than Marth.

This also means her d-tilt trap is worse.

Hell can she even do it consistently vs the whole cast? I truly have my doubts.

Hmm her knockback certainly felt stronger. But I cant really confirm the truth of that, nor did I try just dashing in to shield to punish due to past marth experience. Im a bit skeptical thatll work but Ill try it out next time.

By the way if you havent already dont forget you can test knockback in the results screen for both characters. Doing it at 0 then various percents can give you its base + KB growth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Even if her KB is better she still is unsafe.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

First, @ #HBC | Red Ryu , it's actually not that hard to keep rolling against a competent Marth. While yes, he can easily grab opponents who are rolling, he cannot get lasting hitboxes or traps on rolling and shielding opponents without some degree of difficulty. (Trust me, I've tried multiple times to get opponents who are shielding/rolling with the strategies and techniques, it's hard.)

They roll into me, I Tipper Fsmash on reaction.

Rolling has commitment to it, this has not changed even with them being made better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you can't react to a 30 frame action, then fighting games probably aren't your thing.

 

[hariooo]

They roll into me, I Tipper Fsmash on reaction.

Rolling has commitment to it, this has not changed even with them being made better.

Why would they ever roll into you? Marth has no projectiles you just roll away. You can maybe occasionally catch them with a dash attack that can't KO and has no combo potential but it's not like you have Yoshi's dash attack that's actually worth something.

And lol you're not reaction tippering anything bud. M2k doesn't even reaction tipper fsmash in Melee with twice the amount of movement options. It's not a reliable move at all, especially in Smash4 with the nerfed range.

Come on it's pretty transparent that you're not nearly that good.

 

[Lavani]

Pit and Dark Pit do have a meteor KO option, but it seems that Dark Pit has the better Meteor and better KO options with his attacks.

Not only are their meteors completely identical, but for the two attacks that actually have a difference in KO power (ftilt, sideB), Pit's is the better KO move in both cases.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Reacting to a roll is different from reacting to a wavedash. A roll is a hard commitment. Also if you roll away you just gave up stage control.

Which is what Marth wants.

Good job.

It's pretty transparent that you are clueless and don't understand basic FG concepts.

 

[hariooo]

Reacting to a roll is different from reacting to a wavedash. A roll is a hard commitment. Also if you roll away you just gave up stage control.

Which is what Marth wants.

Good job.

It's obvious you aren't that good bro.

LOLOLOLOLLOL

A roll in Smash 4 has less vulnerable frames than a wavedash does in Melee (which is 10).

Try again.

Nice edit, but "fighting game concepts" loses to "welp here's frame data".

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. i edited because had i left it i woulda got another warning. also you use frame data but frame data supports what im saying. 30 frames is a long time.

See but a wave dash you don't make a hard commitment and the visual cues aren't as identifiable as a roll. You can also control where you go with it and you could even wave dash in place if you don't want to lose your position.

Your move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

A roll doesn't let you act out of it immediately or select a move to use right after now, does it? Because that's the fundamental difference. Even if rolls recover rather fast, you have a small frame window.

Edit: **** Ninja'd by an actual Marth player damn it.

Either way rolls are both telegraphed and can be punished MUCH MUCH easier than a wavedash in Melee.

 

[NairWizard]

A roll in Smash 4 has less vulnerable frames than a wavedash does in Melee (which is 10).

Try again.

If you roll into Marth you will get dancing bladed. Most characters can just turn around and jab. Rolling away is bad, because you sacrifice stage control and lock yourself into an action.

Rolling in general is a poor high-level strategy. Walking is usually better because you aren't committing.

Sometimes a crossup roll isn't a bad mixup though, or rolling as a getup option.

 

[hariooo]

What? I'm responding to the guy saying he can reaction tipper fsmash something like a 7 frame window. No he can't. The pivoting in the game can't be done that precisely that quickly. Rolls are extremely safe against characters without a hitbox that stays out for a while.

And this is the second time but you're not rolling into a character who has no projectiles lol. And what stage control does Marth have in a game where most of the cast can hit him with a projectile from across the map in the first place?

And give it up guys lol we all saw KTAR right? Half the game was rolling around as Diddy trying to bait the other character into getting grabbed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stage positioning is important in all fighters whether you have a projectile or not. Rolling away is simply not always a viable option. Period.

 

[NairWizard]

If your strategy against Marth is to stand at the ledge firing projectiles then you're letting Marth make bolder and better plays because the risk:reward is in his favor.

E.g., he can go for an f-smash read because he has most of the stage to his back--if he misses and gets hit, he won't get knocked off the stage; if he doesn't miss, you probably just got KO'ed. That wouldn't have happened if you had just fought him and tried to gain stage control.

Stage control isn't everything, but it does matter a good deal. Giving it up just for a chance to get 3% damage from projectiles is extraordinarily silly.

 

[Conda]

I think the point is that you can safely toss the Fsmash and it doesn't matter if it tippers. You WANT it to tipper, but if you fail at the spacing for human reasons (which is what it seems people are understandably arguing is a thing) then you're still fine. It's the potential of landing the tipper that makes the reward much better, but missing the tipper isn't the end of the world and sets you up for offstage play.

So yeah, you're not ALWAYS gonna land the tipper. M2K doesn't ALWAYS land tippers. But that's not the point of the mechanic - to always always always use it perfectly. You're gonna get counterplayed, and you're gonna either space incorrectly or not be able to space correctly in the first place. Things happen, this is a very mobile fighting game. But the reward is there when you do land it, and the skill ceiling for Marth and any character with similar tipper mechanics lies in spacing.

It's like Megaman using fsmash at max range. You can reflect it, but it's not gonna make its way back to Megaman due to the attack's short range. So again - not landing your ideal attack isn't too bad if you don't get punished for failing. That's the focus - not getting punished. It's something any swordsman can due better than most non-swordsmen, which is the cause for some of their drawbacks.

 

[Kofu]

Rolls seem to have slight vulnerability before the character actually rolls and has invulnerability (or maybe G&W's roll is just that bad, can't say )

And on the topic of Luigi, @Jabejazz, I've always found him much scarier than Mario, especially now that his FSmash is buffed to be an actual KO option. His aerials are all extremely quick and chain into themselves, NAir is legitimately stupid, I think his Jab is one of the few that still leads into grabs (and possibly Super Jump Punch), and his DAir can spike more consistently. Not a top tier contender but definitely a threat. His customs aren't amazing by my estimation, but they do boost his recovery.

During lunch I spectated a Sheik/Luigi match on For Glory, expecting the Sheik to get an easy win (because lol Luigi approaching). Unfortunately the Sheik was bad at keeping Luigi out and Luigi basically JV 2-stocked the Sheik. Not indicative of the MU as a whole, but NAir stuffed a lot of what Sheik was trying to do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why would they ever roll into you? Marth has no projectiles you just roll away. You can maybe occasionally catch them with a dash attack that can't KO and has no combo potential but it's not like you have Yoshi's dash attack that's actually worth something.

And lol you're not reaction tippering anything bud. M2k doesn't even reaction tipper fsmash in Melee with twice the amount of movement options. It's not a reliable move at all, especially in Smash4 with the nerfed range.

Come on it's pretty transparent that you're not nearly that good.

the frame difference with a wavedash and a roll is very different.

Rolls might he harder to get vulnerable but I've learned how to punish this incredibly easily just by playing as and against Lucario in Brawl.

It's really easy when you got the timing down, and rolling away from Marth gives him more room, which is what he wants lol.

edit: it's a viable option this time around but don't pretend it's some exploitable game breaking thing people can do.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble, but I suppose it's possible that I just haven't played any real good Ganondorfs, or that Rosalina is a really bad match up for him.

Like, King Dedede gives me much more trouble, and I don't consider Dedede to be top tier or anything.

I want to have the opportunity to play a really good Ganondorf then. My experience is that it's not that hard for Ganondorf to swat Luma away, but every time he does it's a free punish for Rosalina. I'll take 13 Luma-less seconds for a free punish every single time. Keep in mind that in 1.0.3 separating Luma from Rosalina was a terrible option, but now in 1.0.4 it's a fantastic option because Rosalina is right within punish distance if someone tries to hit Luma.

I'm here. Let me show you the true power of the Monado Triforce.

 

[hariooo]

Rolling against a whiffed fsmash gives you a frame advantage. That fsmash is not free, sorry. Marth in all his iterations has an ideal distance to space from his opponent, even Brawl's WNBA Marth. He can't keep that distance very effectively in Smash 4 and he doesn't have a strong enough punish game even when he does catch it. This isn't even a "rolls are so strong" post. This is a "Marth is low tier trash" because he can't punish rolls very well post. Obviously the top tier characters have a much easier time against roll-spamming but that's why they're up there and Marth is down here.

That's why Falcon and Ganon are so awful too. They're so straightforward as characters that it's very easy to abuse the safety of rolling against them. It's why they're ****ty character designs outside of the Melee engine where their speed/power/combos give them such a solid punish game that they're worthwhile.

There won't be any top tiers without a projectile in Smash 4.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I'm here. Let me show you the true power of the Monado Triforce.

I had a set of games with @ TTTTTsd 's Ganondorf after I put this out there. TTTTTsd showed me that he could knock Luma away pretty effectively, and that Ganondorf's custom wizard kick is a pretty cool move.

I'm also quite certain TTTTTsd is a better player than me. I never really even played Smash (other than casual Smash 64) prior to last month. And TTTTTsd seems like a pretty good player.

But it still didn't stop my Rosalina from solidly winning 80%-ish of the games that we played. So to be honest I remain convinced that the match up is heavily in Rosalina's favor.

But sure, I'll play you sometime soon (although I can't today).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Rolling against a whiffed fsmash gives you a frame advantage. That fsmash is not free, sorry. Marth in all his iterations has an ideal distance to space from his opponent, even Brawl's WNBA Marth. He can't keep that distance very effectively in Smash 4 and he doesn't have a strong enough punish game even when he does catch it. This isn't even a "rolls are so strong" post. This is a "Marth is low tier trash" because he can't punish rolls very well post. Obviously the top tier characters have a much easier time against roll-spamming but that's why they're up there and Marth is down here.

That's why Falcon and Ganon are so awful too. They're so straightforward as characters that it's very easy to abuse the safety of rolling against them. It's why they're ****ty character designs outside of the Melee engine where their speed/power/combos give them such a solid punish game that they're worthwhile.

There won't be any top tiers without a projectile in Smash 4.

If they roll into you, you can punish a lot of these on reaction.

If you can't do it, you need to get better.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What? I'm responding to the guy saying he can reaction tipper fsmash something like a 7 frame window. No he can't. The pivoting in the game can't be done that precisely that quickly. Rolls are extremely safe against characters without a hitbox that stays out for a while.

And this is the second time but you're not rolling into a character who has no projectiles lol. And what stage control does Marth have in a game where most of the cast can hit him with a projectile from across the map in the first place?

And give it up guys lol we all saw KTAR right? Half the game was rolling around as Diddy trying to bait the other character into getting grabbed.

Rolls are more like an 11-15 frame window

A roll in Smash 4 has less vulnerable frames than a wavedash does in Melee (which is 10).

Try again.

Nice edit, but "fighting game concepts" loses to "welp here's frame data".

I'll quote Shaya.

Just done a little bit of testing on several characters.

The average roll is 30 frames.
The cool down of every roll I've seen is 10 frames. In other words, for 10 frames they're completely vulnerable.

All rolls have 4 frame start ups it looks like, and otherwise shielding is 2 frames in this game instead of 1.

So for every roll you see, there will be 13 frames of vulnerability between another roll, or 11 between a roll into shield.

Rolls are on average 1 frame less cool down than in Brawl
Rolls are on average 1 frame more invincibility than in Brawl.

Now these comparisons are against the best rolls in Brawl. Half the cast were shafted with rolls in Brawl, having much larger cool downs and vulnerability than the other half. Most rolls seem homogenised a bit to NOT BE SO HORRENDOUS ON OVER HALF THE CAST.

Spot dodges and shield frames have been nerfed across the board, with 7 frames of invincibility cool down for nearly everyone it seems. Some characters used to only have TWO.
Shields must be held for 10 frames, up from 7.

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

Lets take Shaya's data as accurate.
10 Frame CD, 4 Frame start up.
You have a 14 frame window between rolls, and rolls are 30 frames.
If you subtract 4 frames from startup and 10 frames frames from the end, it's 16 frames of invulnerability on a roll, if I interpret this correctly. So unless they shield (1-2 frames) If you have even a 20 Frame reaction time. Then you still have 11-14 Frames (depending on their next defensive action) to counter.
Given that Shielding is stopped by grabs, if you turn-around grab, or have a fast attack (like a jab and many dtilts).
You'll punish the roll reliably.

However this isn't taking into consideration what else they may do out of a roll.
If their attack out of their roll is 14 frames, they had 10 frames of Cooldown, then you really have 24 frames of which you could do something, and had 20 frames before that to react.


While I think rolls are a tad goofy, It's a mistake to think Marth (and other characters in general) don't have options to fit within 11-24+ frames given a 20 frame buffer.
Basically what character can't land a grab from neutral given that window of opportunity on reaction?

Edit: Snap Thinkaman says reaction should really be between 15 and 10. And here I am using 20 frame reaction as a base.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have a lot of hesitation to putting too much game design emphasis on something as blunt and discriminatory as reaction time. I think it's just a really poor skill to focus on, and have a lot of sympathy for people with poor reaction times who want to still play Smash.

So when *I* say that rolls are easy to punish, that should tell you something.


Average human reaction time is 15 frames.

Average hardcore video game player reaction time is ~10 frames.

A roll is ~30 frames.

Zero sympathy.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I had a set of games with @ TTTTTsd 's Ganondorf after I put this out there. TTTTTsd showed me that he could knock Luma away pretty effectively, and that Ganondorf's custom wizard kick is a pretty cool move.

I'm also quite certain TTTTTsd is a better player than me. I never really even played Smash (other than casual Smash 64) prior to last month. And TTTTTsd seems like a pretty good player.

But it still didn't stop my Rosalina from solidly winning 80%-ish of the games that we played. So to be honest I remain convinced that the match up is heavily in Rosalina's favor.

But sure, I'll play you sometime soon (although I can't today).

I can guarantee you Ray_Kalm is probably better than I am, like threefold. He's been doing this for a lot longer : )

 

[Iron Kraken]

I can guarantee you Ray_Kalm is probably better than I am, like threefold. He's been doing this for a lot longer : )

In which case, he's probably fourfold better than me, and if his Ganondorf stomps my Rosalina how much does it really prove?

---

Also, I thought the way we're supposed to punish rolls is to use attacks that last for a good number of frames, so that we don't have to react instantaneously?

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, only on Smashboards is a 2-frame 4-input DACUS command "simple" and "everyone can do it", but a 30 frame roll eludes human reaction time.

 

[Kofu]

But Thinkaman, rolls go really far and I can't be bothered to chase after my opponents! Especially if my opponent is Samus. Her roll is just too good. Especially with 15 frames of input lag.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Samus,Rosaluma,Paletuna probably get away with more rolls because their visual makes them harder to read.
Figuring out how to punish rolls on the rest of the cast is easier when the animation lines up well.
Am I too sympathetic?

 

[Flamecircle]

I guess to be fair, he's talking about trouble catching a roll with marth's fsmash. That's what, 10 frames until contact? So you have to read the roll at the right time to catch the end lag, not before or after. It's a little tricky for the average player.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Does down-smash not work on rolling for many characters or something?

 

[Thinkaman]

Does down-smash not work on rolling for many characters or something?

 

[hariooo]

1. For the third time, still not talking about rolling into Marth.
2. Especially not talking about rolling into Marth from neutral??? lol

But you can pretend that's what I'm talking about if it makes the circlejerk about how amazing your roll punishes as Marth are if you want.

 

[Tagxy]

Rolling against a whiffed fsmash gives you a frame advantage. That fsmash is not free, sorry. Marth in all his iterations has an ideal distance to space from his opponent, even Brawl's WNBA Marth. He can't keep that distance very effectively in Smash 4 and he doesn't have a strong enough punish game even when he does catch it. This isn't even a "rolls are so strong" post. This is a "Marth is low tier trash" because he can't punish rolls very well post. Obviously the top tier characters have a much easier time against roll-spamming but that's why they're up there and Marth is down here.

That's why Falcon and Ganon are so awful too. They're so straightforward as characters that it's very easy to abuse the safety of rolling against them. It's why they're ****ty character designs outside of the Melee engine where their speed/power/combos give them such a solid punish game that they're worthwhile.

There won't be any top tiers without a projectile in Smash 4.

1. For the third time, still not talking about rolling into Marth.
2. Especially not talking about rolling into Marth from neutral??? lol

But you can pretend that's what I'm talking about if it makes the circlejerk about how amazing your roll punishes as Marth are if you want.

Falcon bad and Marth bad at punishing rolls? Wat. You're either projecting or very misinformed on the subject. Your entire position relies on the heavily faulty notion that stage positioning doesnt matter because of projectiles. el oh el

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you like Marth in Brawl and you want that feel in a top tier I would suggest ZSS. No one else comes close.

Would generally (but not totally) agree. Fast fall uair is pretty similar to brawl marth fair btw.

 

[NairWizard]

I had a set of games with @ TTTTTsd 's Ganondorf after I put this out there. TTTTTsd showed me that he could knock Luma away pretty effectively, and that Ganondorf's custom wizard kick is a pretty cool move.

I'm also quite certain TTTTTsd is a better player than me. I never really even played Smash (other than casual Smash 64) prior to last month. And TTTTTsd seems like a pretty good player.

But it still didn't stop my Rosalina from solidly winning 80%-ish of the games that we played. So to be honest I remain convinced that the match up is heavily in Rosalina's favor.

But sure, I'll play you sometime soon (although I can't today).

ooo, this sounds fun

Ray_Kalm is a high-level tournament Ganondorf capable of beating almost everyone in this thread. This match should give you a lot of insight into what Ganondorf can do.

Based on your statement, "I never really even played Smash prior to last month," I'm going to go ahead and concede that Ganondorf is awful if you beat his Ganondorf with your Rosalina ~40% of the time.

Or I'll eat another shoe.

 

[Iron Kraken]

ooo, this sounds fun

Ray_Kalm is a high-level tournament Ganondorf capable of beating almost everyone in this thread. This match should give you a lot of insight into what Ganondorf can do.

Based on your statement, "I never really even played Smash prior to last month," I'm going to go ahead and concede that Ganondorf is awful if you beat his Ganondorf with your Rosalina ~40% of the time.

Or I'll eat another shoe.

Yeah it's weird, I didn't even know competitive Smash existed until a few months ago. Like, I got Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl the day they came out, but I only played Melee from like 2001-2004, and Brawl from 2007-2007 (yeah, didn't like it). Smash 64 I continued to play casually with my group of friends for years. I thought I was the king of Smash before I knew about a competitive scene... but until a few months ago I didn't even know what a "tech" was. The more you know.

But now I really want to try to take a couple of games off of @ Ray_Kalm , just for the kicks.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Play @Vermanubis when you get a chance as well.

He'll make you respect Ganon, too.

Smooth Criminal