Character Competitive Impressions

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya
Swords and projectiles are just really hard to do right. Lazers/pikmin/etc. also had a less clunky feel to them in melee/brawl but thats part of what made them too good in regards to balance. They lead to a lot of the dominating play over the general cast and to an extent defense we saw at top level in both games. I know projectiles are a different comparison then swords which generally encompass an entire moveset, but it was part of the general nerfs we saw to defensive mechanics moving into smash 4.

I think conceptually the reason swords arent given the handy sh auto cancels that other multihit and long hitboxes have is that they already benefit from having extended disjointed hitboxes, and in Marth/MKs case are also fairly fast. In a sense its a "weakness" to compensate a handy "strength". How that plays out in reality I cant say I know enough to judge, but once again conceptually it does seem a bit too good to provide disjointed hitboxes with all those benefits.

I understand marth didnt invalidate anyone by his lonesome and was challenged by characters that had their own strong strengths, in the context of other top characters Marth seems fair. But if you removed the top 8/7 other characters in Brawl/Melee I would think Marth would run a train on most the rest of the cast. Is that incorrect?

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya
Swords and projectiles are just really hard to do right. Lazers/pikmin/etc. also had a less clunky feel to them in melee/brawl but thats part of what made them too good in regards to balance. They lead to a lot of the dominating play over the general cast and to an extent defense we saw at top level in both games. I know projectiles are a different comparison then swords which generally encompass an entire moveset, but it was part of the general nerfs we saw to defensive mechanics moving into smash 4.

I think conceptually the reason swords arent given the handy sh auto cancels that other multihit and long hitboxes have is that they already benefit from having extended disjointed hitboxes, and in Marth/MKs case are also fairly fast. In a sense its a "weakness" to compensate a handy "strength". How that plays out in reality I cant say I know enough to judge, but once again conceptually it does seem a bit too good to provide disjointed hitboxes with all those benefits.

While I understand marth didnt invalidate anyone by his lonesome and was challenged by characters that had their own strong strengths, if you removed the top 8/7 other characters in Brawl/Melee I would think Marth would run a train on the rest of the cast. Is that incorrect?

There's enough characters who get completely disjointed limbs/have disjoints of their own with auto cancels (heck, Robin, the pits). I can understand the decision for fair not to have one, but honestly don't see why nair doesn't have one (although I see the sh-nair ff thing as intentional, but nair being overall gutted in every way doesn't add up; seriously, nair got significantly more nerfed than any other move Marth had). What I'm saying is he's needlessly restricted in ways that no one else really is. His moves are otherwise still potent, but nearly every complaint about using him coming from the boards/players/etc I'm 100% sure stems from this single discrepancy, his numbers just don't add up together, while most other characters do.

And take 9/10 of the top tiers in a game and I'm sure the one left behind would do pretty well. There wouldn't be much reason not to play him, but there'd still be enough characters who can call evens, maybe even slight advantages. Oh yeah, dedede, lol. I'd Play him instead.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Another way to put it is well, are these characters showing up high in tourney because good players so happen to play them or because the character is that good. It could be both, but I believe a part of it for some characters is the former. Correct me if im wrong but the only Dark Pit player was Nairo right?

Earth got 4th out of 186 with Pit at a japanese tourney this weekend outplacing the likes of Nietono and Abadango.

 

[Freezie KO]

What doesn't make sense about Marth's nerfs is how Sakurai and the dev team let through Rosalina. Disjointed hitboxes? Insane range and priority? Luma already makes her attacks disjointed, but Rosalina has the addition of galaxy hitboxes. Her up-air and down-air are completely overpowered. Her dash attack can be unpunishable. I'd say 3/5ths of the cast can't get in on her at all. She'd be broken even if you could grab her, which you can't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My favorite thing about playing against Rosalina is when I hit her with something and get hit out of my initial dash when I try to follow up because Rosalina decided to mash "A". My second favorite thing is trying to chase her down when I kill Luma. Oh well rolls RIP

Skillful play there boys.

A weird thing about Rosalina that catches me off guard even now is how much distance she can cover... like she doesn't run that fast, but I'll think I'm landing in a safe place and her Snake-esque hitboxes just kind of... hit me from really far away.

 

[Freezie KO]

My favorite thing about playing against Rosalina is when I hit her with something and get hit out of my initial dash when I try to follow up because Rosalina decided to mash "A". My second favorite thing is trying to chase her down when I kill Luma. Oh well rolls RIP

Skillful play there boys.

A weird thing about Rosalina that catches me off guard even now is how much distance she can cover... like she doesn't run that fast, but I'll think I'm landing in a safe place and her Snake-esque hitboxes just kind of... hit me from really far away.

I forgot to mention her up-smash also. But I'm replying because I agree with how surprising it is when she covers distance also. I was playing Olimar and lost my pikmin, so I needed to retreat to the ground for a 1/3rd of a second. I literally could not touch the ground until I was KO'ed, and that was my sole objective. I know I was playing a low tier, but damn...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A weird thing about Rosalina that catches me off guard even now is how much distance she can cover... like she doesn't run that fast, but I'll think I'm landing in a safe place and her Snake-esque hitboxes just kind of... hit me from really far away.

That Dash Attack mad dumb.

 

[Shaya]

But then you shuffle the first hit of her dash attack into a good aerial once or twice and they're too scared to ever do it again!

 

[NotLiquid]

Midst the talk of potential patches to even out characters like Diddy down the line I'm curious just how much faith we're putting into Sakurai and co. to patch regularly and drastically. The only reason I feel we got such drastic changes now is because the patch exists to push the 3DS version up to speed with the inevitable differences in unaccountable values and physics that would have been present and changed in the Wii U version. I kind of doubt we'll see another "real" balance patch, if any at all, until Mewtwo comes out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zelda is hard to edgeguard as pika as an initial impression and probably vs other people who edgeguard, as compare to sheik. There may turn out to be ways to better optimize edgeguarding tough, perhaps through ledge trumping.

Also this was based on an initial impression but I feel Lucina may be underrated in some MUs as compared to marth. In some matches recently I realize how much I rely on not getting tippered vs Marth to get in, as its notably more risky to try and rush in on Lucina and lose the exchange if youre a rush in type character. Ill see if I can figure this out more.

You are wrong about lucina. She has nothing over marth at all.

 

[Browny]

Shes hotter than marth

hi sfp, are you ready for another 4-5 years of tier list laughs

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lucina can take comfort in the fact that Marth - despite being slightly better than her - is just as unviable.

Shes hotter than marth

Nah, Marth is still the prettiest princess in Smash.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hero-King

Prettiest king.

Carry on

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Shes hotter than marth

hi sfp, are you ready for another 4-5 years of tier list laughs

The more important question: are you? Are you playing smash 4? :O

 

[Chuva]

Lucina can take comfort in the fact that Marth - despite being slightly better than her - is just as unviable.

Marth unviable? I dunno man
Maybe I'm overrating him since it's kinda early to tell, but in terms of competitiveness I'd rank Marth in the "too cool for top 5" aka kawaii tier alongside
He feels clunky to use (for me personally), but he still got his opressive buttons and frame traps and is probably the biggest bully to fast fallers. He doesn't seem to have any glaring weakness (unlike, say, Ness recovery) and a single good tipper read feels more decisive than ever.

I'm a firm believer that this will be another iteration where Marth regally sits in the upper echelons of competitiveness.

 

[Terotrous]

Midst the talk of potential patches to even out characters like Diddy down the line I'm curious just how much faith we're putting into Sakurai and co. to patch regularly and drastically. The only reason I feel we got such drastic changes now is because the patch exists to push the 3DS version up to speed with the inevitable differences in unaccountable values and physics that would have been present and changed in the Wii U version. I kind of doubt we'll see another "real" balance patch, if any at all, until Mewtwo comes out.

I agree. I don't expect to see really frequent balance changes. The timing of this patch obviously wasn't a coincidence. A patch when Mewtwo comes out wouldn't surprise me, but I don't expect to see anything else until then.

Marth unviable? I dunno man

Yeah, I disagree with this pretty strongly. Marth might be a little weaker than before but he's still functionally the same character. If you space it properly he hits hard and fast and is fairly safe. Counters are godlike in Smash4, too. He's definitely still a threat even for some of the better characters.

 

[hariooo]

Marth doesn't have any lasting hitboxes in a game where you can reasonably spam roll.

He ain't hitting **** ever.

And no he doesn't bully fastfallers you're talking about the wrong game lol.

As a rule you should never make characters feel worse to play as a balance mechanic.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Serious question, is it really possible for a character to be viable in Smash 4 without some kind of projectile or way of neutralizing your opponent's projectile? It just feels like such a huge disadvantage in this game.

Like I'm sorry to bring up Rosalina again, but she's the only character I know the match ups with. What is Marth supposed to do against Rosalina?

Spacing with Luma against Marth and pestering with star bits is so easy for Rosalina. Marth's counter is basically useless against Rosalina, because if he counters Luma that's a free punish for Rosalina. Marth literally can't even counter up-air, down-air, down-tilt and forward smash because the range is so disjointed. Marth's whole game is supposed to be based around spacing, and yet Rosalina's attacks easily have more range, priority, and speed.

When Luma is on the field, Marth feels totally unviable against Rosalina.

But as I said originally, it just seems really tough for characters without projectiles in this game.

 

[Terotrous]

Marth doesn't have any lasting hitboxes in a game where you can reasonably spam roll.

He ain't hitting **** ever.

His dash attack is plenty active enough to punish backwards rolls without needing great timing, but really you should just try to learn the timing to hit rolls. There's still a decent number of vulnerable frames.

Serious question, is it really possible for a character to be viable in Smash 4 without some kind of projectile or way of neutralizing your opponent's projectile? It just feels like such a huge disadvantage in this game.

Remember, every character can neutralize projectiles by clanking with them. As a character with a huge sword Marth can clank projectiles easier than most.

Like I'm sorry to bring up Rosalina again, but she's the only character I know the match ups with. What is Marth supposed to do against Rosalina?

Block Luma Shot and FSmash Luma probably. Rosalina can't get close enough to punish before the FSmash will recover.

If she's got Luma at moderate distance and is spamming projectiles you can either just double jump over Luma and go after Rosalina or Fair / Nair Luma. Both involves some risk, which is why you don't want to let her set up that situation if you can help it. Note that Rosalina can no longer have Luma save her if she's in hitstun, so it's a little safer than it used to be.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Marth doesn't have any lasting hitboxes in a game where you can reasonably spam roll.

"Reasonably spam" roll? Sure, rolls aren't complete ass any more, but spamming them is still unsafe as hell. Your optimal option in most situations is to space well and try not whiff/use unsafe **** on shield.

Marth does fine punishing that kinda rolling ****. As a matter of fact, I say he could land some very nice punishes with spaced f-smash or (as Tero mentioned) dash attack.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lenus Altair]

Shes hotter than marth

Depends on your point of view.

I really don't like that Pit/Dark Pit, and Meta Knight's Up Smashes don't connect from behind, especially when they directly hit the models of the opponents. Whenever I try using SS U-Smash, I find myself going too far or too high with them (it's worse against smaller characters).

On the topic of things, what do you guys feel about Pit, Dark Pit and Meta Knight?

I can't speak of metaknight but I can to the Angel Boys.

The Pit's are solid. Like, almost obnoxiously so. Pretty much every quality the have is slighty above average to pretty darn good. They rock the nuetral game against a large portion of the cast between having their arrow (above average projectile), Ftilt (stupid ranged frame 10 dijoint with some great coverage), solid Jab(Frame Five Disjoint, Infinite jab, Gentlemens jab), solid Grab options and damage (Dthow to Uair, Fthrow to dash attack), and that Upperdash to cut through an opponents cheesiness with your own.

His recovery is one of the better ones in the cast. His gimping game and aerial options are above average too (mostly thanks to long disjoints).

His only notable "weakness" Is a lack of KO options outside of gimping (Fsmash, while great, is the only KO move he has below 130). If he had his old Bair or some kind of aerial kill move I'd be isurprised not to see him top 10. But outside of that weakness his problem is really that a lot of character just have more devastating/abusive options then he does. Pit rewards a strong nuetral game and pressing the advantage offstage, but the rewards are... slightly above average, if that.

There would have to be something really abusive discovered for him not to be a solid mid/mid high character.

 

[Chuva]

Marth doesn't have any lasting hitboxes in a game where you can reasonably spam roll.

And no he doesn't bully fastfallers you're talking about the wrong game lol.

Rolls are not as safe as you're claiming. Spamming rolls against a Marth who knows his Dtilt setups is asking to be punished.

He still bullies fast fallers in the sense that you can trap them easier in the air since they have less momentum to react to Marth's already dangerous long-ranged aerial disjoints. Stuff like Dthrow -> Uair -> insert follow-up also connects a lot easier on characters like Fox and Falcon. Obviously it's nothing Melee'esque and it's more relevant on low-mid %s, but it's significant.

 

[Conda]

Incoming videos on my channel from r/smashbros's huge Wii U release tournament. A lot of character variety - many Jigglys, shulks, ness's, and even a Mii Gunner! Editing and uploading as we speak. Should spark some discussion.

 

[Terotrous]

The Pit's are solid. Like, almost obnoxiously so. Pretty much every quality the have is slighty above average to pretty darn good.

There would have to be something really abusive discovered for him not to be a solid mid/mid high character.

I generally agree that Pit is a solid character, but at the same time, there's really not much about him that makes me think "wow, this is amazing" in the same sense as Lucario's aura-boosted damage or Palutena's super speed or something like that. FTilt is legitimately a really great move, but other than that I feel he's kind of a textbook weapon fighter who doesn't really seem to have a lot of advantages over, say, Robin. I also find he feels a bit stiff, probably due to a combination of poor air speed and a lot of landing lag on his aerials (when not autocancelled).

 

[NairWizard]

Serious question, is it really possible for a character to be viable in Smash 4 without some kind of projectile or way of neutralizing your opponent's projectile? It just feels like such a huge disadvantage in this game.

Like I'm sorry to bring up Rosalina again, but she's the only character I know the match ups with. What is Marth supposed to do against Rosalina?

Spacing with Luma against Marth and pestering with star bits is so easy for Rosalina. Marth's counter is basically useless against Rosalina, because if he counters Luma that's a free punish for Rosalina. Marth literally can't even counter up-air, down-air, down-tilt and forward smash because the range is so disjointed. Marth's whole game is supposed to be based around spacing, and yet Rosalina's attacks easily have more range, priority, and speed.

When Luma is on the field, Marth feels totally unviable against Rosalina.

But as I said originally, it just seems really tough for characters without projectiles in this game.

yes, entirely possible to deal with projectiles without having one or a means to neutralize projectiles. Attacks tear through projectiles, so you can f-air (or f-tilt) through them in most cases.

Gravitational Pull is actually slightly worse than f-airing through a projectile, because GP doesn't have a hitbox so Rosalina can be hit if the projectile is used from up close. I'd rather be Marth against say Mario Fireballs (though having Luma take some hits is cool).

GP is better against, like, Fox, but Fox is really strange as an MU: you have to approach him if he has the lead no matter what

 

[Tagxy]

You are wrong about lucina. She has nothing over marth at all.

The only difference between marth and lucina is the tipper/non-tipper yes?

As a mobile rush character I feel I have great control of the immediate space directly around the tipper range. The problem isnt avoiding the tipper though, its whether or not I can navigate or bypass the swords full length in one way or another to hit the swordsman. With that in mind I understand that Im going to lose exchanges, but its worth taking the risk to get in close. Taking that risk and losing against marth feels like a bop on the nose, where-in afterwards I lick my wounds and try again. Losing against Lucina feels like a full-blown timeout wherein I start to question my purpose (of risking the rush in). Hard to fully explain beyond that but its just scarier to approach Lucina with that type of strat. Gonna try to play it more though and see what I can figure out.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I generally agree that Pit is a solid character, but at the same time, there's really not much about him that makes me think "wow, this is amazing" in the same sense as Lucario's aura-boosted damage or Palutena's super speed or something like that. FTilt is legitimately a really great move, but other than that I feel he's kind of a textbook weapon fighter who doesn't really seem to have a lot of advantages over, say, Robin. I also find he feels a bit stiff, probably due to a combination of poor air speed and a lot of landing lag on his aerials (when not autocancelled).

I don't disagree. He is a slightly above average character all around that doesn't do anything super fantastic. Being so well rounded without glaring weakness will keep him out of the bottom half of the roster, but that's all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Your fear of Lucina is not warranted. She tends to do 1% more on her attacks compared to Marths sourspot.

Also she does not have Marths hitlag modifiers. This means all of her attacks are ALWAYS less safe on block then Marth. Different moves do vary but general rule of thumb is that she is around 2 frames worse on disadvantage on block compared to Marth for all her moves. To beat Lucina just dash into shield. If she shieldbreakers you can spot dodge on reaction. The move is 19 frames. Block her stuff and punish. She is far less safe than Marth.

This also means her d-tilt trap is worse.

Hell can she even do it consistently vs the whole cast? I truly have my doubts.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Marth doesn't have any lasting hitboxes in a game where you can reasonably spam roll.

Tell me how far you get doing this against anyone competent.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Can't Marth just pivot tilt or throw out anything disjointed and eventually hit someone who's only rolling anyways? They eventually have to go in, and even with nerfed range Marth is still effective at forcing that sort of thing, is he not?

 

[Conda]

Rosalina's basically the new Snake. Shulk seems to be the new Marth (not literally, I'm just catching your attention )

Hear me out on Shulk - he has slow moves but low landing lag compared to Marth on nair and fair. Marth used to be the hop around and use aerials to cover space, but that is now literally Shulk's forte instead. Sakurai seems to have consciously given Shulk this playstyle, taking it away from Marth as one of his strong options.

Marth is definitely more of a fencer type in this game, with quick startup moves but each having long end lag, both in the air and when landing with them. It forces you to not play Marth the way you may have in the past (creating a fair wall and not having much landing lag - Shulk does this now with Nairs). Instead, you have to use him in a more precision-focused way. His tipper mechanic is very strong comparatively to the rest of the cast's kill power in Smash 4's, so he still has a very powerful unique mechanic to himself in this. Shulk has his tricks, but let's not forget that Marth has his.


Lucina, though? She has no tricks. May as well play Ike instead if you like her playstyle.
People who said "Lucina feels like melee Marth!" during the first month of the 3ds release are just saying things for the sake of expressing first impressions - the truth is, she does not.

So if you really loved how Marth played in previous titles, you may find that in Shulk. I commentated and hosted many matches during the r/smashbros Wii U release tournament, and there were some impressive shulk players who used him in ways that reminded me of Marth. I'll post individual match links once they're up. Sure, Shulk isn't doing multi fair SHs or anything, but he hasn't too much landing lag and, unlike Marth, can toss out aerials to cover space and stop approaches.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think if they fixed Lucina's shield poking methods she'd be a LOT better. If she was close to as safe as Marth on shield I'd see her being much closer to him given her air speed. Right now tho....lol.

Also I've been having WAY too much fun with Falco, and I can't help but want to chime in and say I recommend Void Reflector against Villager out of principle. Never done the MU but looking at Pocket in hindsight, voiding his projectiles entirely may be the best bet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think Marth has tricks. Marth imo is a very numbers oriented character. You put someone in a situation and if they do something other then 1 or 2 options, Marth can punish.

Shulk is not the new Marth at all. He can't do what Marth did in Brawl. Marth spacing someone out isn't just to keep them out. It's to create situations where they are super limited. Shulk's toolset does not work that way. He can poke at you, but his trap game is nothing akin to Marth at all.

If you like Marth in Brawl and you want that feel in a top tier I would suggest ZSS. No one else comes close.

 

[Jabejazz]

snip

Dat shameless channel advertisement!

Did you happen to host matches with that Luigi player Capps talked about? Genuinely curious about that myself.
I've played a few really good Luigi players, and their potential for combo game really threw me off at start. Like, much better than both Marios.
And that was before 1.0.4.

Now that vectoring is no more, I feel Luigi might be better than what we think.

 

[Chuva]

Is there any substancial difference in the KB values of Lucina's blade and Marth's sourspot or is it as minimal of a difference as damage output?

At least when I cycle between Marth and Lucina in my games, the impression I have is that Lucina has more dangerous OoS stuff not because of damage, but KB. But then again, I'd rather have proper data instead.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Generally Lucina will kill 10% sooner on any kill move compared to Marth's sourspot.

So the answer is no.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dat shameless channel advertisement!

Did you happen to host matches with that Luigi player Capps talked about? Genuinely curious about that myself.
I've played a few really good Luigi players, and their potential for combo game really threw me off at start. Like, much better than both Marios.
And that was before 1.0.4.

Now that vectoring is no more, I feel Luigi might be better than what we think.

No vectoring makes D-Throw even stupider.

My sentiments on Luigi can be summed it very quickly. His neutral is mediocre and his approach options are incredibly limited.

However, if you let this man in, it's like watching a car accident with that throw.

 

[Thinkaman]

Is there any substancial difference in the KB values of Lucina's blade and Marth's sourspot or is it as minimal of a difference as damage output?

At least when I cycle between Marth and Lucina in my games, the impression I have is that Lucina has more dangerous OoS stuff not because of damage, but KB. But then again, I'd rather have proper data instead.

http://smashboards.com/threads/fram...for-every-character-wip.378789/#post-18040689

 

[Jabejazz]

No vectoring makes D-Throw even stupider.

My sentiments on Luigi can be summed it very quickly. His neutral is mediocre and his approach options are incredibly limited.

However, if you let this man in, it's like watching a car accident with that throw.

This is my impression as well, although I find his fireballs much better than Mario's.
Probably a lack of experience with dealing with those compared to Mario and Doc, however.

To be clear, I don't feel Luigi deserves a massive bump in placement, but he's probably not at the lowest of low.

 

[Radical Larry]

Pit and Dark Pit do have a meteor KO option, but it seems that Dark Pit has the better Meteor and better KO options with his attacks. Dark Pit is especially good with his Neutral Special 2, Guiding Arrow, due to its high mobility (PK Thunder < Guiding Arrow). His Side Special 2 is also very good, due to it giving you not only a safe approach, but also a safe distance from your opponent, should you connect.

Talking about solid characters for a moment, while I will bring back Link and Ganondorf as clear contenders, I also feel like Pikachu, Charizard and Toon Link are all indeed solid with their attacks and strategies. They're not bad at all, especially with their customs (except Toon Link; his customs are bad). I still stand firm that Link is a high tier, but I won't have doubts about Toon Link being high tier either. Ganondorf is an easy mid-tier to upper mid-tier.

Tell me how far you get doing this against anyone competent.

Can't Marth just pivot tilt or throw out anything disjointed and eventually hit someone who's only rolling anyways? They eventually have to go in, and even with nerfed range Marth is still effective at forcing that sort of thing, is he not?

First, @ #HBC | Red Ryu , it's actually not that hard to keep rolling against a competent Marth. While yes, he can easily grab opponents who are rolling, he cannot get lasting hitboxes or traps on rolling and shielding opponents without some degree of difficulty. (Trust me, I've tried multiple times to get opponents who are shielding/rolling with the strategies and techniques, it's hard.)

Second, @ TTTTTsd , Well, Marth's nerfed range and Smash Attack Speed (yes, his Smashes are slower than in Brawl) is especially deadly to him against opponents who can out-space and camp against him like crazy. Opponents who roll fast can get an edge on him if they can out-range, camp and have better footies or Zoning than he can have.

I think if they fixed Lucina's shield poking methods she'd be a LOT better. If she was close to as safe as Marth on shield I'd see her being much closer to him given her air speed. Right now tho....lol.

Also I've been having WAY too much fun with Falco, and I can't help but want to chime in and say I recommend Void Reflector against Villager out of principle. Never done the MU but looking at Pocket in hindsight, voiding his projectiles entirely may be the best bet.

Well, I do agree that Lucina is quite the Roy of this game, but at least with her, she's better than Roy would ever be (except in range).

I also love the Void Reflector, it is very good against Villager.

I don't think Marth has tricks. Marth imo is a very numbers oriented character. You put someone in a situation and if they do something other then 1 or 2 options, Marth can punish.

Shulk is not the new Marth at all. He can't do what Marth did in Brawl. Marth spacing someone out isn't just to keep them out. It's to create situations where they are super limited. Shulk's toolset does not work that way. He can poke at you, but his trap game is nothing akin to Marth at all.

If you like Marth in Brawl and you want that feel in a top tier I would suggest ZSS. No one else comes close.

Actually, Shulk is a very splendid character, especially with the tactics and strategic set he needs to be played as. He may be a very strategical character, but he profits from his Monado attacks; however, his Back Slash is terrible, especially when your opponents are mainly facing toward you for the entire match.

And ZSS? I've faced competent ZSS players, and played ZSS myself, but she's nowhere near close to that Brawl Marth feel. She has good tactics, yes, but if she can be beaten by Link (yes, no ZSS has beaten me as Link yet, but some beat me when I was Ganon), then she's not the comparable "Brawl Marth".

Her aerial game isn't bad, but it's also not good either, and her ground game may be one of the better ones, but her projectile and specials won't do it for me. She may have two meteors, but both are very dangerous if they miss off the edge. I do say that her F-Smash, or the D-Smash > F-Smash Combo is decent against opponents at higher percents.

This is my impression as well, although I find his fireballs much better than Mario's.
Probably a lack of experience with dealing with those compared to Mario and Doc, however.

Luigi is actually better than either Mario; mainly this is due to me winning more For Glory matches with him than the Mario's.
I feel his combo game and attacks are better than Mario and Doc's.