Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

I can respect that. For what it's worth with NAir, I thought the move was better than FAir in Brawl and used it heavily. FAir had good range but you were lucky to get two hits off it; now if it connects it actually deals damage. Would you say the reason a lot of his aerials are safe is because of his second jump? It feels that way to me. Also to address Shaya's post, BThrow is definitely scary and it is pretty silly how one dash grab (and Ness has a good one!) can lead to your death.

Good point on PKT2 though, it's not a move to be trifled with. If your percent is low enough you can intercept it to deny Ness's recovery sometimes but you take hefty damage. If you're feeling really ballsy you can jump into it even at KO percentages and try and tech against the stage. I wouldn't recommend it though.

Maybe I'll just have to play you to get a better idea of a good Ness's play style. Most of my experience is from For Glory where very few have given me trouble (an indicator of player skill more than character prowess). That also excludes experience on non-FD stages, which changes Ness's game (but makes his aerial game more powerful).

To be totally honest i'm not sure whether it is punishable and people are just finding it hard to work around it or perhaps DJ is giving a certain level of safety there. Actually, whilst I loved Fair in Brawl you'd be right in saying his Nair was actually a fantastic move and possibly his best option.

I also agree rage does sooo much for this character, both because he has quite a few kill moves as well as the fact that they're quite easy to land (especially as grabs are so powerful in this game).

I'd be more than happy to play you at some point if you're up for it! Though cross-continent connections make input lag a bit heavy it's usually not too bad. Just VM me any time i'm around :D

 

[TTTTTsd]

Will got pretty far with DK too. Honestly, character viability is looking pretty good at this point.

Yeah while I doubt we'll see much from the current tournaments, I have hopes for Apex. I'd like to see somebody do something with Dr. Mario besides M@v because I really enjoy the character and I'd like to learn more. DK looking consistent as he always does too.

 

[Garrett Williamson]

It might just be me but Lucina feels more like Marth from the older games than Marth feels in Smash 4. Lucina feels a bit faster and less floaty, and my playing Lucina according to my trained timing with Marth in Melee and Project M is closer than that of Marth in Smash 4.

She still totally feels like a Marth clone that just looks different and has slightly modified mechanics, but I'm actually really liking her.

Also Diddy Kong is actually far better in this game than Brawl. He kicks butt in this game. Love that monkey.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Zucco and Chillin both did well at KTAR yesterday with , which I think is worth noting.

I believe Zucco placed 4th? He put M2K in losers, took Dabuz to Game 3, and took M2K to game 3 in losers.

You right. Not sure about Chillin but Zucco and daiki are doing work with the character. Gotta add him in the same group as Little Mac, Robin and the Pits.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fighting Ness feels like fighting Brawl Ice Climbers,
almost.

It's like

"how do you kill this floaty probably 2 frame nair ****er"
Gotta work on finishing him off, maybe less Ice Climbers and more Lucario-ish? Kill throws scaling with rage just, ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I think if a character can just rely on playing safe until a dash grab opportunity comes along, disgusting.
Forces you to play so differently, and Ness has all the tools to mess you up for trying to avoid grabs and is very hard to approach.

Either way, I already put this character in top 4 since patch 1.0.4. Probably just teetering on as strong as you'd want a character I guess, probably struggles in enough match ups. Over time weaknesses can be learned to be abused (recovery, maybe good shuffling/sdi).

Ness has two weaknesses which I believe will be more apparent later on. He actually has really low mobility overall, and as people have observed already, his recovery is still exploitable.

Right now, Ness as he is thrives due to the strength of PKT juggles, his aerials being safe, and very strong grab reward forcing respect for what otherwise would be a bad ground game. But realistically, it's actually hard for Ness to "catch" you if you don't want him to. He doesn't chase very well without PKT juggles overall.

imo Ness is sorta in a precarious balance situation, not unlike Rosalina. There's a strong chance that he's more noticeably affected by balance changes than most characters due to the levers designed in his kit.

 

[Luigi player]

So with the Wii U version hitting the streets and 3 major tournaments having happened this weekend I think it'd be interesting to summarize character performance since the release of the 3DS version:


Won more than 1 major / super-stacked tournament:
Won 1 major / super-stacked tourney + various top placings:
Place very high consistently with multiple players:
Place very high consistently with one or two players:
Place moderately well with a few players consistently: (/)


-> all based on offline tournaments

Which Sonics place very high consistently (would be nice with some evidence)? It seems I didn't notice them...

 

[Radical Larry]

I figured out a way to make it unsafe for Sonic to use S-Spec against Link (and Toon Link); SH Z-Drop both Bombs. It will render Sonic players to change up strategy from S-Spec to something else. This is nothing really new, as I'm sure most others know this, but it's good against Sonic, especially with the Meteor Bombs. In fact, I think Z-Dropping (or L-Dropping in the 3DS version) the Meteor Bombs off the edge, above an opponent is a really great gimp tool, especially with the short fuses of the Meteor Bombs. It's also very, very safe since you can easily get back on the stage with Link.

I feel that Meteor Bombs render it harder for Diddy Kong (and to extents, Pikachu, Luigi, Meta Knight, Fox, Falco, etc.) to recover; not saying it's rendering Diddy's recovery impossible, it's just a tad harder, especially when a Bomb connects at a higher percentage.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I know that falco isnt used much but how is he competitvely? His tools seem to work for every situation and he can kill early on the griund and air.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Falco is very good once you learn him. He's just quite different in this game. His tilts are awesome and his reflector is pretty cool, a lot more fun with customs. Spacing is decent and his ground game is probably his best aspect with Bair being a great aerial finisher.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco is being slept on competitively, especially after small buffs to lasers making them not useless. He has the tools to outperform virtually every character in neutral, and his damage per hit is considerably above average.

Probably his worst matchup is Pikachu, but other than that, I believe he is very viable right now.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Falco is being slept on competitively, especially after small buffs to lasers making them not useless. He has the tools to outperform virtually every character in neutral, and his damage per hit is considerably above average.

Probably his worst matchup is Pikachu, but other than that, I believe he is very viable right now.

Im glad I chose falco along with peach. I hope.more people test falco out in training like I am. His combo game is amazing aswell.

 

[Flamecircle]

Shaya could probably talk about falco, considering shaya took falco to a tourney.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Alright am I the only one who thinks all of Sheik's nerfs still isn't enough? Maybe I'm just salty from getting bodied by Sheik players who just spam bair after a down throw and end up 0-KOing me at like 40%. Seriously they need to decrease that moves combo potential, because it has too much hitstun and too little knockback making what I mentioned above possible.

 

[NairWizard]

Ness is good because of b-throw mostly. He has other tools, but the fear of dying at 100% is too immense for most characters to play freely/without restraint against him. It shuts down options. You're always afraid of getting shieldgrabbed, you're always afraid of staying in your shield against PK Fire, you're always afraid of landing with an airdodge because he can dashgrab you.

 

[Jabejazz]

Alright am I the only one who thinks all of Sheik's nerfs still isn't enough? Maybe I'm just salty from getting bodied by Sheik players who just spam bair after a down throw and end up 0-KOing me at like 40%. Seriously they need to decrease that moves combo potential, because it has too much hitstun and too little knockback making what I mentioned above possible.

Gimping, like in Brawl, is a great option for her. That option has been weakened with the overall buff to recoveries, though.
Nerfs are okay. Her killing power is absolute trash, but with the removal of vectoring, I don't live that much longer.
She's still a pretty good character.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So with the Wii U version hitting the streets and 3 major tournaments having happened this weekend I think it'd be interesting to summarize character performance since the release of the 3DS version:


Won more than 1 major / super-stacked tournament:
Won 1 major / super-stacked tourney + various top placings:
Place very high consistently with multiple players:
Place very high consistently with one or two players:
Place moderately well with a few players consistently: (/)


-> all based on offline tournaments

It's interesting to see, but I do want to remind viewers to not mind it directly for balance.
There is currently a lack of representation for a lot of characters which means under developed metas and unclear tournament viability.

A question to ask at least for KTR and Sky's invi for one is if these are the top characters, how would they place relative to other players if they simply choice different characters? Would Mr.R ignoring #1 place top 5 without Sheik? And would it have to be one of those characters we've seen for it to be plausible?

Im still waiting for some Jiggly play and given I won't be buying a Wii U till Spring (well earlier if Xenoblade C X comes out)
and I won't mooch off my local tourney scene until exams are finished. I'm eagre to see more characters played and where their players take them.

There's been some shoutout of Diddy, diddy, diddy, but It's semi-early for that. While undoubtedly strong I say "best char in the game" is suspect.

Another way to put it is well, are these characters showing up high in tourney because good players so happen to play them or because the character is that good. It could be both, but I believe a part of it for some characters is the former. Correct me if im wrong but the only Dark Pit player was Nairo right? Every little mac seems to get dusted come the conclusion as well.
Nairo's a good player, but it probably could have easily been Villager, or Link on your list if the notable characters (so far) decided to play those characters. Trela's done alright for himself on 3ds/WII U with Robin/Shulk/Charizard, but is anyone feeling that Trela is in the top 3 of Smash 4 from what we've seen so far? If he's not then if someone in the top 3 was playing his characters with the same level of dedication, would they be placing in the top 4? We may have a complete reversal come larger tournaments, given I don't think anyone expected Ganon to place 2nd in Japans 100 man 3ds tourney.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Gimping, like in Brawl, is a great option for her. That option has been weakened with the overall buff to recoveries, though.
Nerfs are okay. Her killing power is absolute trash, but with the removal of vectoring, I don't live that much longer.
She's still a pretty good character.

Eh, I'm just sick of feeling like I'm playing MvC, knowing I'm going to die the second a Sheik player touches me even if I'm at 0%. I like seeing gimps,but her gimps are just effortless.

 

[Kofu]

Eh, I'm just sick of feeling like I'm playing MvC, knowing I'm going to die the second a Sheik player touches me even if I'm at 0%. I like seeing gimps,but her gimps are just effortless.

Not really. If you play Marth, your aerials outrange hers and your Up-B has invincibility. Use that and mix up your return to the stage.

 

[Rayze]

How do you people feel 1.04 (default) Ike is stacking up relative to the rest of the cast? I'm seeing fairly good potential. His gameplan works; great spacing options, KO power, range, weight, capable of maintaining advantageous momentum. However, he does still struggle somewhat against certain key threats such as ZSS and Sheik.

 

[Ffamran]

I know that falco isnt used much but how is he competitvely? His tools seem to work for every situation and he can kill early on the griund and air.

I was about to mention how the lack of Falco discussions makes me sad, but yay! You mentioned the bread-bird!

Falco is very good once you learn him. He's just quite different in this game. His tilts are awesome and his reflector is pretty cool, a lot more fun with customs. Spacing is decent and his ground game is probably his best aspect with Bair being a great aerial finisher.

Don't forget Fair which while it can't fast-fall and pull down people as of patch 1.04, it's still a good gimp and aerial finisher. I don't use Uair much when I should, but I think it's fairly good.

SSB4 Falco seems to be like a fusion of Brawl Wolf and past Falco's, especially considering that his Bair is Wolf's Bair and Falco's Up Smash is functionally the same as Wolf's Up Smash. I wonder what Wolf would be like if he returned. I'm definitely wondering what Mewtwo would be like when Mewtwo returns since there's little to go from the Brawl leftovers and the fact that with Pokémon constantly getting new moves and mechanics, Mewtwo's different in each game. Anyway, I digress.

 

[Deathcarter]

How do you people feel 1.04 (default) Ike is stacking up relative to the rest of the cast? I'm seeing fairly good potential. His gameplan works; great spacing options, KO power, range, weight, capable of maintaining advantageous momentum. However, he does still struggle somewhat against certain key threats such as ZSS and Sheik.

I put him in upper-mid alongside Bowser. Troubling match ups against top tiers like ZSS, Diddy, and especially Sheik are easily his biggest roadblocks competitively. I can't speak on custom Ike.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I was about to mention how the lack of Falco discussions makes me sad, but yay! You mentioned the bread-bird!


Don't forget Fair which while it can't fast-fall and pull down people as of patch 1.04, it's still a good gimp and aerial finisher. I don't use Uair much when I should, but I think it's fairly good.

SSB4 Falco seems to be like a fusion of Brawl Wolf and past Falco's, especially considering that his Bair is Wolf's Bair and Falco's Up Smash is functionally the same as Wolf's Up Smash. I wonder what Wolf would be like if he returned. I'm definitely wondering what Mewtwo would be like when Mewtwo returns since there's little to go from the Brawl leftovers and the fact that with Pokémon constantly getting new moves and mechanics, Mewtwo's different in each game. Anyway, I digress.

I know is fair doesn't pull people down as much but its great to use as like a scrolling wall especially when you do the move backwards off the stage to spike the opponent off the stage. I'm actually shocked more people don't talk about him.

 

[NairWizard]

Time for a bit of theory-cise:
what if Sheik still had her down-b from Brawl/Melee, i.e., she could still transform into Zelda (and vice-versa)? But no Bouncing Fish/Phantom. (transforming refreshes all your moves in knockback/damage, remember). She'd obviously be better, but by how much?

 

[Shaya]

She wouldn't be better, that would probably drop her several tiers haha.

 

[Ffamran]

I know is fair doesn't pull people down as much but its great to use as like a scrolling wall especially when you do the move backwards off the stage to spike the opponent off the stage. I'm actually shocked more people don't talk about him.

This is why I pester people by mentioning Falco as much as I can. Ganondorf not so much since he's a (literal) beast in SSB4, especially considering what was done to him in Brawl so, that leaves Falco who I wasn't really keen on in Melee and Brawl - I really wished he used dual blasters after seeing that cutscene -, but after seeing him drop like a rock in discussions because "that ain't Falco", I decided to main, defend, and inform others about him.

Oh, and Fox's voice in SSB4 pulled me away from my "crutch character". I miss Jim Walker, Fox's voice actor for Assault and Brawl. Heck, Steve Malpass, Fox's voice actor for Adventures, would have been fine, but somehow, the directors made Mike West sound really annoying not to mention the recycled voice clips for Bowser - his voice clips are apparently from Mario Kart 64 -, Sonic - all ripped from Generations and another game -, Link - Skyward Sword Link's VA, Takashi Ohara, please, follow the "remake trend" with Nobuyuki Hiyama, or tease us with Link's voice actor for Zelda Wii U -, and some other characters. Anyway, I digress and I don't hold anything against Akira Sasanuma, Link's voice actor for Twilight Princess, Brawl, and SSB4, I just would like something new or have "refreshed" voice clips.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Time for a bit of theory-cise:
what if Sheik still had her down-b from Brawl/Melee, i.e., she could still transform into Zelda (and vice-versa)? But no Bouncing Fish/Phantom. (transforming refreshes all your moves in knockback/damage, remember). She'd obviously be better, but by how much?

Then she really couldn't be able to kill or combo into a kill move. Its probably better for both characters that they are separate. Together they would probably drop a few ranks.

 

[Shaya]

The fair "change" or "nerf" on Falco is quite annoying, very hard to get all hits on people off stage while going deep for recoveries ;\

Falco's a beast middle tier +, if not better as time goes on. Truly a combo heavy, high range ****** who's weaknesses probably step from over damaging opponents making it very hard to find the kill and getting juggled/landing. He doesn't change much customs, he's just given better versions of his own moves (void reflector + extra long range up-b) in such a way that I think he needs them just so his tools are just more well-rounded and potent.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Time for a bit of theory-cise:
what if Sheik still had her down-b from Brawl/Melee, i.e., she could still transform into Zelda (and vice-versa)? But no Bouncing Fish/Phantom. (transforming refreshes all your moves in knockback/damage, remember). She'd obviously be better, but by how much?

Sheik's Brawl/Melee down-b is the worst move in the game in both games, as it leaves you wide open for an attack and brings you down a couple of tiers to boot. Bouncing Fish is a huge upgrade.

 

[NairWizard]

Then she really couldn't be able to kill or combo into a kill move. Its probably better for both characters that they are separate. Together they would probably drop a few ranks.

She would have trouble killing (even more than she has now) in her Sheik form, but definitely not in her Zelda form--imagine Zelda emerging with all moves fresh, opponent at 80%+, after Sheik has done a bunch of d-throw and f-air combos to build up percent already.

Loss of Bouncing Fish would hurt her landing and recovery, but Zelda is probably the best character for landing/recovery in general with that up-b, so against characters with good landing traps/edgeguarding, transforming to Zelda at moderately high percents is a legitimate strategy. Just up-b whenever Pikachu tosses you off stage: done.

I'm surprised that people think that she'd be worse. Bouncing Fish is certainly good, but not so good as the option to become an entirely different (and now viable) character. And Phantom is OK at best, not amazing really, so adding Sheik's kit to Zelda's is clearly a big buff.

 

[OBI1JABLOMI]

samus is op

 

[Shaya]

The same option existed for Brawl and after multiple years/tier lists of having this "Sheik + Zelda" combination as it's own separate entity, it got removed, it was a +2 position on the tier list above sheik at it's best.

No point taking a character who probably goes 60:40 with everyone and then switch to zelda to get the kill when she's probably playing it as 30:70.

 

[san.]

How do you people feel 1.04 (default) Ike is stacking up relative to the rest of the cast? I'm seeing fairly good potential. His gameplan works; great spacing options, KO power, range, weight, capable of maintaining advantageous momentum. However, he does still struggle somewhat against certain key threats such as ZSS and Sheik.

Probably going to have many evenish MUs in the upper echelon. Unlike the 3DS, the playstyle seen in Brawl translated very well to the Wii U version for much better spacing. Sheik is probably the most difficult theory-wise, but she is susceptible to dying at 80-90 from even simple bair/fairs. Killing at earlier % on the Wii U version changed up quite a few things.

 

[NairWizard]

The same option existed for Brawl and after multiple years/tier lists of having this "Sheik + Zelda" combination as it's own separate entity, it got removed, it was a +2 position on the tier list above sheik at it's best.

No point taking a character who probably goes 60:40 with everyone and then switch to zelda to get the kill when she's probably playing it as 30:70.

The problem there was that Brawl Zelda was arguably the worst character in the game, only feared near the beginning of the game's lifespan and then almost forgotten about. This game's Zelda is anything but that: one up-b read can net you a kill at 80%, smashes or laggy moves in general are very unsafe against her (they are generally unsafe against Sheik too but they won't get you killed), f-smash is fairly safe, and she has a reflector, an amazing tool against most of the top tiers and good characters in this game.

Zelda is actually a pretty good character now, and I doubt that most of her matchups are 30:70, at least not the part where she's trying to get a kill.

Just one example: I would much rather be Zelda at 100% going up vs. 80% Ness than I would be Sheik at 100% going up vs. 80% Ness. My KO options are generally safer, getting back to the ledge and avoiding PKT juggles is safer, avoiding juggles is easier, and I don't have to build Ness into the Rage which he needs to kill me from any point of the stage, because I can actually kill him fairly early with anything I land.

 

[Shaya]

I think the combination of the two would prove to have more match ups in which there was an actual difference (in Brawl the only agreed match up which bringing zelda in was actually better than just staying sheik was DEDEDE) in this game. A character like Ness may have been worthwhile for a zelda switch.

I doubt this will be a common case though. And it isn't applicable in any way either.
But lets go a little further then,

So you're going to deal 80% damage and then switch to zelda? Really? Because there's a point which up-b doesn't easily combo into itself, and the mental scenario in which you're confident switching off of sheik to avoid trading/taking damage to get the kill isn't going to work any better as Zelda...

Can players avoid down tilt? Can they abuse the slower zelda in ways that allow them to catch back up?

 

[Nabbitnator]

I see that she is a pretty good character but I don't quite understand why they would need the transformation. I'm guessing you could use sheik to wrack up the damage and then Zelda to net a kill, but aren't Zelda's killing options kind of unsafe? I know she has a reflector but sheik can use bouncing fish to go over projectiles. you could still use them each for different match ups though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think the combination of the two would prove to have more match ups in which there was an actual difference (in Brawl the only agreed match up which bringing zelda in was actually better than just staying sheik was DEDEDE) in this game. A character like Ness may have been worthwhile for a zelda switch.

I doubt this will be a common case though. And it isn't applicable in any way either.

Sheik being able to transform into Zelda would be a MASSIVE buff in the Lucario matchup. I'd dare say Zelda actually has a better matchup against Lucario than Sheik, honestly.

Zelda's superior landing options are also a big deal against pretty much everyone not named Sonic, especially when you consider how much she stands to benefit from rage. Of the really good characters, I feel like she primarily just has it noticeably hard against Sonic, Little Mac, and Peach. Everyone else she's pretty competent against.

 

[Browny]

Wheres my tier list thread Shaya?

Also, hi.

 

[Kofu]

Farore's Wind is a little overrated, IMO, at least as a kill move. It's much more potent as a mix-up, since you can't tell where Zelda's teleporting. It's also hilariously unsafe on shields (I've seen so many Zeldas try to attack me directly with it, it's sad). She is better in this game but I feel it's more from mechanics changes than from any changes to her.

 

[Shaya]

Wheres my tier list thread Shaya?

Also, hi.

Waiting until we have "undeniable proof" marth is top 5, obviously.

 

[Browny]

That was a better response than I could have ever imagined.