Character Competitive Impressions

[SonicZeroX]

For what it's worth, Shield Monado is pretty useful in 8 player smash.

Definitely seems pretty bad in 1v1s though. As soon as you see your opponent put on shield you just go camp mode.

 

[NairWizard]

That's true, making throw not work as a kill option is neat. But what happens if Ness just plays it safe until it runs out? It might work in some ways now, but I ain't seeing much potential.

Where can I see this crew battle btw? I don't I seen it and I wanna see all of Trela's Shulk badly

Sky's twitch channel (invitational is going on this weekend).

http://www.twitch.tv/sky_mp3

 

[Kofu]

@Luco
The thing with Ness is that I'm just confused as to where all the talk that he was top tier came from. He's a solid character, for sure, but for the most part he feels unchanged from Brawl to me. I used him in Brawl as a secondary because I found his playstyle really fun.) That's not necessarily a bad thing; IMO Brawl Ness was a reasonably solid character who just got shafted through grab release infinites. With those gone I would expect him to move up but not to top tier.

I bring up his recovery because it's his most obvious weakness, but that's a given when he takes about a second to actually move back toward the stage and a critical part of that recovery is a projectile that can be intercepted or reflected. His excellent second jump (I'd say it's the best in the game) helps him a little, but if he's forced away from the stage without it he's in a bad state.

His aerials are mostly unchanged from Brawl, although his BAir has a little less power and his DAir is a lot less consistent. FAir continues to form the crux of his game due to its great range and priority. The fact that it drags the opponent along for the ride now makes it even better. I think it tends to be a little overrated though. If he trades with someone else while using it he's more likely to be put in a bad position and take more damage because, aside from not dealing that much damage in the first place, FAir is multi-hit and each hit is quite weak.

PK Fire is a really good tool but it's so much more commitment than Robin's Arcfire or the Mii Gunner's Flame Pillar because it doesn't automatically activate when hitting the ground. It does trigger on contact with hitboxes, though, so that's something. While it has less lag than Brawl, it's still not something you want to be using from neutral or to approach because it's so easy to shield or avoid. That said, if it connects on the ground, you can usually get a free grab. FSmash if you're close enough. It's pretty sweet off-stage, though, because it sinks. I'll give it that. (Do Flame Pillar/Arcfire sink?)

His tilts are fast but pretty short-ranged. His grab game is amazing, especially with that insane BThrow. It honestly feels even stronger in this game than in Brawl, but it's probably partially due to rage buffing its power when Ness gets to higher percents. His Smashes are buffed from Brawl, from what I can tell. I could be wrong on this, but it seemed like his FSmash was somehow both weaker and slower than Lucas's, despite Ness using a bat and Lucas using a stick. Anyway, USmash has more power and DSmash is good at poking shields. His Dash Attack has great range (especially the last hit) and I've been able to use it to surprise people with its reach. It's punishable on shield, though, like most Dash Attacks are.

I really like the power his UAir has and the speed of his NAir. Ness's strength seems to lie in linking aerials together, but this game seems to have more of a focus on ground combat. Ness still does well there, but it's not his forte.

I've seen a lot more Ness users online than I thought I would. I don't remember that many people liking him previously. I assume some of the userbase comes from people losing Lucas and switching to the closest thing.

Basically I see Ness as a solid character but don't know where the hype for him came from, unless people really didn't know his BThrow could kill at silly percents. That's the main feature he has that's unusual and makes him stand out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ffamran]

Like how he sucked in Brawl, then gets a few buffs and rises all the way to top tier. Same with Yoshi. the poor designing of so many characters makes them terrible but then become top tiers with even a few buffs. Like Sonic, Shiek and Yoshi. Namco is just as bad at balancing as Nintendo is. Whoever made the most balanced fighting game ever should work for Sakurai.

Go call the SNK fighting games developers. They have the good character balancing from what I've seen and heard.

The issue is that there will never be a perfect balance, but from what SSB has gone through, I'd say that SSB4 has the best balancing, especially compared to Brawl which had outright unusable characters e.g. Ganondorf and characters who were completely helpless to certain match-ups. Now, even if a character is low tier, they can still stand their ground.

 

[Hippieslayer]

What are they going to do? Your shield is stronger. Their option is grab, given that pressuring your shield is less practical than normal. If they can camp its one thing, but as far as keeping people out, you aren't trying to with Shield.
It's relevant when you have a stock lead, as unless they're planning to time out in your advantage, or again they can effectively pressure from range they have to come in. You can hold on to your stock and not be worried about the shield pressure so you can focus on zoning out their grab.

They don't have to come in unless there's very little time left because the stance doesn't last forever. But okay, so it has its uses; I just ain't seen it work out that well most time's it's been used; moreover, ya gotta consider there are a lotta characters who can camp shieldshulker what with projectiles being common and he being slow.

 

[tebby]

when will we see the first decent tier list

 

[Ffamran]

when will we see the first decent tier list

When it's ready.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

They don't have to come in unless there's very little time left because the stance doesn't last forever. But okay, so it has its uses; I just ain't seen it work out that well most time's it's been used; moreover, ya gotta consider there are a lotta characters who can camp shieldshulker what with projectiles being common and he being slow.

Definitely but thats why its only 1/5 states.
If the Monado was just Shield that would suck but since it isn't it's good that you can have Shield as an option in the back of your mind to help you out.

A lot of Shulks use jump on-stage but I rarely ever do. I swap out of it immediately upon successfully recovering or edgeguarding.
It is fortunate that he can play so differently.

 

[Freezie KO]

Something that isn't "fixable" at the very least shouldn't be very strong competitively, from a design standpoint. It's favorable for the health of competitive gameplay. Sonic is both technically overpowered, and is by design nonsense. That instantly warrants nerfs.

In Jojo ASB, Nacmo made Iggy that way. He's pretty BS to play against by design because in Stand Off mode, he's by far the smallest character in the game, like, think Kirby crouching perpetually the entire game. Bottom tier character too (extremely low life), and that's for the better of the game.

Sonic's gameplay is degenerative because it doesn't promote smart decisions. Against Sonic, you either have a safe spammable projectile that stops him from running for free, or the almost the entire game against him is just a straight guessing game. Very little reaction or strategy involved. You just fish for him making mistakes over and over and hope he dies before you. Sonic doesn't even have a seriously terrible negative state to take advantage of to really counterbalance him.

I should make clear, Sonic is not the only character that has a poor design that probably shouldn't be competitive. He just happens to be the strongest competitive example of a poor design in this game, one that pretty blatantly breaks the conventional rules established by most characters. Unlike Little Mac and Falcon who at least are plagued by a terrible negative state to counterbalance their dominant mobility...Sonic just doesn't allow you to do anything interesting.

afaik most of the other strong characters in this game have a few things that are overtuned, but evening out the overall power levels would reveal there isn't as much wrong with them design-wise. This is especially obvious in Diddy, Yoshi, and Lucario. Diddy doesn't need the best U-air in the game, Yoshi gets noticeable milage because virtually all of his attacks do Falco level damage or something, and Lucario probably would be much less cringe-worthy by slightly shifting him away from his massive aura scaling.

Great post. I agree with you about what needs to be toned down in Yoshi, Diddy, and Lucario, but those things are noticeably different from a Sonic or Captain Falcon who just force 50/50 guesswork based on their mobility.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't really feel like Yoshi is top tier; high tier, maybe, but nowhere near top tier. He may have his buffs and strengths, but he also suffered nerfs against him, such as his worse recovery compared to Brawl; by this, I mean that Egg Throw will only lift you up significantly during the first two throws, and if the opponent gimps you, it becomes useless if you haven't used your second jump. As well, his second jump doesn't have that Super Armor feel to it anymore, as I've KO'd a Yoshi multiple times after hitting it during its second jump, with Toon Link's B-Air.

Then there's Diddy, who I don't consider a top tier either. He may have advantages, but his biggest disadvantage is being below a stage, well below it. Remember, his U-Spec needs to charge considerably to get distance, and it takes quite some time to get said charge and distance. By that time, any opponent (or even the stage) will have gimped you against your recovery.

I don't know what people see in those two, but I don't see it. (Also, Bowser's really feeling it at mid-tier now, in my opinion.)

 

[Kofu]

I don't really feel like Yoshi is top tier; high tier, maybe, but nowhere near top tier. He may have his buffs and strengths, but he also suffered nerfs against him, such as his worse recovery compared to Brawl; by this, I mean that Egg Throw will only lift you up significantly during the first two throws, and if the opponent gimps you, it becomes useless if you haven't used your second jump. As well, his second jump doesn't have that Super Armor feel to it anymore, as I've KO'd a Yoshi multiple times after hitting it during its second jump, with Toon Link's B-Air.

Then there's Diddy, who I don't consider a top tier either. He may have advantages, but his biggest disadvantage is being below a stage, well below it. Remember, his U-Spec needs to charge considerably to get distance, and it takes quite some time to get said charge and distance. By that time, any opponent (or even the stage) will have gimped you against your recovery.

I don't know what people see in those two, but I don't see it. (Also, Bowser's really feeling it at mid-tier now, in my opinion.)

What would top/high tier consist for you then? I agree that Yoshi might not be top tier, but his mobility, weight, and power are huge factors in his advantage. Diddy has absurd range and obnoxious follow-ups from his DThrow. Even without those, though, he'd still be a very solid character and probably top tier. You don't have to recover low in Smash.

 

[Jabejazz]

Been away from the past 2 days. 3 hours of sleep, coffee is doing the balance.

I pretty much agree with @ Jabejazz 's blanket summation for D3 on the whole. To paraphrase, he more or less said that D3 suffers from a lacking neutral game. Sure, he's got a lot of great tools otherwise, but once you're up in his **** and you start overwhelming him, it's more or less over. He just can't compete with characters that can outbox/outfox him in close quarters. I believe D3 can keep people out very well by counterpoking and playing reactionary, but that's a whole other mess all together with its share of goods and a whole lot of bads.

So, yeah, D3 isn't that great, but at least he isn't completely helpless. He's a very polarizing character.

Smooth Criminal

Seconding whatever this fine gentleman says.
Also, removal of Vectoring hurt us quite a bit, our punish game from DThrow is better though it seems.

Poor Dedede, Sheik has a inescapable Fthrow into bouncing fish combo till almost 70% thanks to the removal of vertical VI

Fair enough, Sheik can't kill. At least she can rack up damage easier than she did pre-patch. Still most likely a favorable MU like it was pre-patch. Maybe slightly less.

I don't really feel like Yoshi is top tier; high tier, maybe, but nowhere near top tier. He may have his buffs and strengths, but he also suffered nerfs against him, such as his worse recovery compared to Brawl; by this, I mean that Egg Throw will only lift you up significantly during the first two throws, and if the opponent gimps you, it becomes useless if you haven't used your second jump. As well, his second jump doesn't have that Super Armor feel to it anymore, as I've KO'd a Yoshi multiple times after hitting it during its second jump, with Toon Link's B-Air.

Then there's Diddy, who I don't consider a top tier either. He may have advantages, but his biggest disadvantage is being below a stage, well below it. Remember, his U-Spec needs to charge considerably to get distance, and it takes quite some time to get said charge and distance. By that time, any opponent (or even the stage) will have gimped you against your recovery.

I don't know what people see in those two, but I don't see it. (Also, Bowser's really feeling it at mid-tier now, in my opinion.)

Yoshi's recovery "nerf" is honestly really not that significant; chances are you'll kill him before he gets a chance to recover in most cases. That's if you kill him, because he beats most characters in every single aspect of their game. So yeah, a ****ty recovery (that is not really ****ty in any way, shape, or form) does not warrant a "nowhere near top tier" placement (Shoutouts to Brawl Olimar).

Diddy's recovery is amazing. He can both side-B (which you are forced to respect when offstage if you even want to attempt to edgeguard him), then he can use upB as a last resort if side-B isn't sufficient. The fact it needs to charge is irrelevant; he can make it back from fairly low, a place where not many characters can actually go and make it back.

On stage, he has 700 ways to kill you, but most likely ends with a banana to DThrow to up air, one of the most braindead kill setups in history.

I do agree, however, that Bowser is fine in mid tier. I think Bowser in high tier was completely over-rated.

 

[SonicZeroX]

The only problem I have with Diddy right now is that upair. Everything else is okay, but that upair is WAY TOO GOOD.

 

[Radical Larry]

Still, the setup with Diddy's D-Throw > Anything, can be broken easily by a simple Wizard's Foot by Ganondorf to send Diddy straight upward. Though there's a window between it, and timing may be strict, it's very useful to KO Diddy early that way if it connects, even with Diddy doing a trade-off attack. There's guaranteed setup breakers by every character against Diddy's D-Throw.

As for Diddy's U-Air, it's not too good, for there are characters i.e. Shulk, Link, Toon Link and Sheik, who can defeat the U-Air (again, timing and precision is needed).

What would top/high tier consist for you then? I agree that Yoshi might not be top tier, but his mobility, weight, and power are huge factors in his advantage. Diddy has absurd range and obnoxious follow-ups from his DThrow. Even without those, though, he'd still be a very solid character and probably top tier. You don't have to recover low in Smash.

What I justify as high/top tier is admittedly yet to clarification (meaning I don't know what it will consist of yet until I test further).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Still, the setup with Diddy's D-Throw > Anything, can be broken easily by a simple Wizard's Foot by Ganondorf to send Diddy straight upward. Though there's a window between it, and timing may be strict, it's very useful to KO Diddy early that way if it connects, even with Diddy doing a trade-off attack. There's guaranteed setup breakers by every character against Diddy's D-Throw.

As for Diddy's U-Air, it's not too good, for there are characters i.e. Shulk, Link, Toon Link and Sheik, who can defeat the U-Air (again, timing and precision is needed).

...are you insane?

Any good Diddy player would basically have to put down his ****ing controller after the down-throw in order to flub it, especially at the percentages that it's almost guaranteed to connect. The window to stop Diddy from following-up is so small that he could easily adjust to whatever you think you're going to do to stop him anyways. It is really as braindead as people are making it out to be.

Sure, there's a way to stop it completely. It's called, "try not to let Diddy Kong manipulate you into being grabbed." AKA footsies, which can be hard to do against a character as greasy as he is. Good luck with anything else!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Still, the setup with Diddy's D-Throw > Anything, can be broken easily by a simple Wizard's Foot by Ganondorf to send Diddy straight upward. There's guaranteed setup breakers by every character against Diddy's D-Throw.

As for Diddy's U-Air, it's not too good, for there are characters i.e. Shulk, Link, Toon Link and Sheik, who can defeat the U-Air (again, timing and precision is needed).

what

EDIT : what

 

[NairWizard]

Still, the setup with Diddy's D-Throw > Anything, can be broken easily by a simple Wizard's Foot by Ganondorf to send Diddy straight upward. Though there's a window between it, and timing may be strict, it's very useful to KO Diddy early that way if it connects, even with Diddy doing a trade-off attack. There's guaranteed setup breakers by every character against Diddy's D-Throw.

As for Diddy's U-Air, it's not too good, for there are characters i.e. Shulk, Link, Toon Link and Sheik, who can defeat the U-Air (again, timing and precision is needed).

How do Link, Shulk, and Sheik defeat Diddy's up-air? And Toon Link has what, d-air? use d-air and face fastfall f-smash...not worth it; I'd rather just DI and eat the f-air instead.

Wizard's Foot is too slow to defeat Diddy's up-air at most percents, because Ganon's on the heavier side and doesn't get launched too high.

up-air isn't the broken move that people think it is, though, I will agree with that much; his f-air is. F-air is the reason that Diddy is a nightmare to face for most characters. You can avoid the up-air but then you just get wrecked by f-air in most cases, or side-b, or land up-tilt, or land f-smash, or...

Then there's Diddy, who I don't consider a top tier either. He may have advantages, but his biggest disadvantage is being below a stage, well below it. Remember, his U-Spec needs to charge considerably to get distance, and it takes quite some time to get said charge and distance. By that time, any opponent (or even the stage) will have gimped you against your recovery.

Side-b means that Diddy can recover high most of the time, and he can actually recover completely horizontally with his up-b if he wants. He can angle the rockets to get around your n-air edgeguards attempts if he charges at the bottom of the stage (below the stage).

 

[Freezie KO]

...are you insane?

Any good Diddy player would basically have to put down his ****ing controller after the down-throw in order to flub it, especially at the percentages that it's almost guaranteed to connect. The window to stop Diddy from following-up is so small that he could easily adjust to whatever you think you're going to do to stop him anyways. It is really as braindead as people are making it out to be.

Sure, there's a way to stop it. It's called, "try not to let Diddy Kong manipulate you into being grabbed." AKA footsies.

Smooth Criminal

Not to mention that Diddy also has a frame 3 dtilt that combos directly into up-air at higher percentages.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Also Diddy's down throw to uair is a true combo (not 100% of the time but most of the time it's legit, usually if it doesn't work it's because Diddy has too much rage on him)

 

[NairWizard]

*sigh* Diddy's biggest weakness is definitely SD'ing, as Zinoto just demonstrated. Shoutouts to double non-sweetspotted up-bs in one match.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

How do Link, Shulk, and Sheik defeat Diddy's up-air?

He's probably counting counter, or jumping out (but everyone can do that at high enough %'s)
Shield/Smash/Jump/Buster would break the combo early due to de/increased knockback.
But Down air and nair aren't an option against it (at least as far as I've been able to use it) and Back Slash Charge's Armor either is only Heavy, or it gets its frames too late to counter it.

So he can't straight beat it.

While we're on the subject.
Can Diddy get through Megaman's Leaf shield? It stops grabs doesn't it?
Megaman top tier.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

One thing I'd like to add about Shulk's counter, @ ChronoPenguin : If the other person scouts it (as you probably already know, there are noticeable tells for this) from below, you can hit them safely and avoid the riposte all together. Just fastfall right as you connect and watch as the counter misses. Then it's a simple matter of doing whatever the hell you want to Shulk as he's in recovery. I do it all the time with D3 and his U-air when I follow up out of d-throw.

I imagine you could pull off something similar with the other counters. I know I've done it against Marcina and Ike too. Mac, eh, I don't know many Macs that wanna try and stop my follow-up from below with counter. I'd like to see if it works.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

The only instance I had someone original enough to counter an UpAir under him, I was Shulk.

Usually, it ends up they counter the first hit, and get hit be the sword expansion.
But yeah Shulk's counter is particularly bad when used airborne.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi's recovery "nerf" is honestly really not that significant; chances are you'll kill him before he gets a chance to recover in most cases. That's if you kill him, because he beats most characters in every single aspect of their game. So yeah, a ****ty recovery (that is not really ****ty in any way, shape, or form) does not warrant a "nowhere near top tier" placement (Shoutouts to Brawl Olimar).

It really is significant. Footstooling still exists, and those 5 jumps in brawl was so much better than just 2 hops in Smash 4. Rather Brawl > Smash 4 egg toss hops.
Honestly the only reason he doesn't get gimped as much as he should is because of the new ledge mechanics and nobody able to just easily grab the ledge and watch him fall.

 

[Ffamran]

The only instance I had someone original enough to counter an UpAir under him, I was Shulk.

Usually, it ends up they counter the first hit, and get hit be the sword expansion.
But yeah Shulk's counter is particularly bad when used airborne.

Yeah, Shulk just floats there, but for a team match, it's probably a decent way to "trap" someone since both Shulk and his opponent end up in slow motion. I found that out by accident during an online team match where I was able to counter under someone - blame hitboxes - and my opponent was just stuck there. It would have been perfect if it was coordinated, but whatever.

 

[Iron Kraken]

@Nairo beat @NAKAT 's Ness, his main, with Dark Pit. Then @NAKAT switched to Diddy and won 2 straight.

The whole tournament is being dominated by Diddy. Diddy Diddy Diddy. This is bad.

Hopefully it doesn't get in between them as friends, though. Nairo was pretty upset.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Nairo beat @NAKAT 's Ness, his main, with Dark Pit. Then @NAKAT switched to Diddy and won 2 straight.

The whole tournament is being dominated by Diddy. Diddy Diddy Diddy. This is bad.

Hopefully it doesn't get in between them as friends, though. Nairo was pretty upset.

Relax, it isn't that big of a deal. Diddy's pretty good and people play good characters. It doesn't mean it's the only choice or only option.

 

[Sinister Slush]

When I saw him choose Diddy I already knew he won. Only thing I was sad about is missing Nairo's salt.

 

[Freezie KO]

I'm all for nerfing Diddy, but let's also remember that a big Melee tourney just had 5/6 Foxes in top six.

 

[NairWizard]

Only one observation:

 

[san.]

Ahead of the curve considering seconding Pika/Jiggs

What does Diddy do if you actively attempt to deny free monkey flips back to the stage?

 

[NairWizard]

Ahead of the curve considering seconding Pika/Jiggs

What does Diddy do if you actively attempt to deny free monkey flips back to the stage?

Nothing, Pikachu literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death.

I mained this character in Brawl, and it looks like I'm going back to him. This is absurd; these edgeguards are absurd.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Nothing, Pikachu literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death.

I mained this character in Brawl, and it looks like I'm going back to him. This is absurd; these edgeguards are absurd.

I mained Pikachu in brawl also. I'll keep him in my pocket. Right now Lucina and Palutena are my main two. Dr. Mario and Pikachu are situational.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The only instance I had someone original enough to counter an UpAir under him, I was Shulk.

Usually, it ends up they counter the first hit, and get hit be the sword expansion.
But yeah Shulk's counter is particularly bad when used airborne.

When in the air, Vision is more so used as a method of dodging an attack. Not only does Shulk recieve no damage, but since he moves forward a fair amount of distance, the opponent will be forced to reposition themselves, unlike the counters used from Lords and Palutena. Greninja and Little Mac can do a similar thing, though for the former there is no leeway.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Pikachu is so good in this game.

God-tier gimping, recovery, and speed. Not to mention the aerial combos. And the up-smash and side-smash are really good, especially with the 1.0.4 patch.

 

[san.]

Nothing, Pikachu literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death.

I mained this character in Brawl, and it looks like I'm going back to him. This is absurd; these edgeguards are absurd.

I'm not convinced on this statement just yet if it's everyone/majority of the cast, but I do think he's quite good vs. Diddy's recovery for sure, though.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not convinced on this statement just yet if it's everyone/majority of the cast, but I do think he's quite good vs. Diddy's recovery for sure, though.

Will respond to this after some in-tournament testing Disagree for now, though; I think it is just about everyone (except Palutena, Zelda, and Sheik).

 

[san.]

It'd be nice to see. Keep in mind I'm taking the statement literally: "literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death"

Edit: To explain a bit more, I think Pika is great both onstage and offstage, I just don't think offstage is absolutely dominant though vs. simply strong.

 

[Radical Larry]

I really don't like that Pit/Dark Pit, and Meta Knight's Up Smashes don't connect from behind, especially when they directly hit the models of the opponents. Whenever I try using SS U-Smash, I find myself going too far or too high with them (it's worse against smaller characters).

On the topic of things, what do you guys feel about Pit, Dark Pit and Meta Knight?

 

[NairWizard]

It'd be nice to see. Keep in mind I'm taking the statement literally: "literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death"

Edit: To explain a bit more, I think Pika is great both onstage and offstage, I just don't think offstage is absolutely dominant though vs. simply strong.

There's hyperbole in there for sure (even though I used the word literally). Today Pikachu had to work pretty hard to get some of those edgeguards, so it's definitely not free, but I also think that we haven't seen a Pikachu with enough matchup knowledge to consistently edgeguard most of the cast. He has such a big kit for edgeguarding! B-air, d-air, n-air, f-air, thunderjolt, thunder, even up-air > stuff. Everything but skull bash (which can also edgeguard if you have the side-b 3 custom, which charges very quickly). Add to this the fact that PIkachu himself can't be edgeguarded easily at all since QA covers so many angles and is so fast, and you probably have the game's best edgeguarding--that's at least relatively dominant if not absolutely dominant.

Oh, also, fun fact: Pikachu needs to spend less time on the ledge than most characters that don't use tether recoveries I believe, so ledge trump is a very strong option for him.
But we'll have to see.