Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

I think that if Mii sizes are such a huge problem, middle middle, big big, and small small should be it. Upon the start of the battle you can immediately identify what they even without any knowledge about it.

I dont think anyone uses Big/Big.

would probably be Short/Fat.

 

[Conda]

I dont think anyone uses Big/Big.

would probably be Short/Fat.

I understand the love for short miis, but not short/fat. Short/Fat sacrifices some of the reasons you're choosing a short Mii in the first place (attack speed, movement speed, jump height/mobility).

And what if a player comes around with a working playstyle for a taller Mii? They have much more range, and that can be ideal for certain players. Big/Big isn't great and Tall/Skinny is likely the only good version of it, but we can revise a more inclusive range if we are open to it.

Again, if we are actually going to standardize a small range of Mii weights/heights for tournament setups to have on their systems, then that is great. This is a huge step for Miis.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Tall/skinny If I recall is a currently considered option for Gunner.

I actually don't like Short/Short, it's too extreme and you just end up with this trashy jump, you slide a bit, you've minimized your damage. No thanks jeff.

 

[NairWizard]

I did some Shulk testing to confirm my suspicions about Buster. I wanted to see how punishable Shulk's f-tilt is at various ranges, so I had a friend space f-tilts on my shield. The results were very interesting.

At tipper range:
-Both Speed Shulk and Standard Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be punished by any attack that Little Mac had.

At blade range (as in, not tipper, closer to middle of the blade):
-Speed Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt and f-smash.
-Standard Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt but not by f-smash.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be punished by any attack that Little Mac had.

At close range (as in, close enough for Little Mac to jab):
-Speed Shulk could get punished by jab, f-tilt, f-smash, pretty much everything. Same goes for Standard Shulk.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be hit by jab, because the shield pushback was too much, but he could be hit by f-tilt. F-smash was *still* not possible.

I'd like to continue testing other characters (as well as aerials), but my conclusion is that Buster Shulk is flat out superior to every other Shulk by quite a bit, and Speed is rather underwhelming.

He only takes +13% damage from being in Buster now, compared to the +40% that he deals back to the other side. In exchange, he's much safer, and his attacks have less knockback--and this is an advantage rather than a disadvantage because it makes traps and followups easier to achieve.

Buster Shulk and Ike are both significantly overbuffed; the buffs were very inappropriate imo, and both are easily top 5 contenders with customs (Decisive Arts for Shulk, all moves for Ike). You can't punish well-spaced attacks from either character.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Meh on second thoughts SFP is right, even if they aren't standardized the advantage they gain from it isn't nearly big enough to warrant banning them.

I think they should be standardized, but even if they aren't it's not a killer.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They were heavily buffed and yet still not the top 2 in the game with customs on (Or at least not runnaway top 2 they-need-their-own-tier). Without customs, neither are top tier.

That means they aren't overbuffed. Simply buffed more than expected. As long as nobody becomes an MK style need-their-own-tier character, I don't care how many buffs a character gets. I'd rather characters all climb up in power rather than nerfing down to lower levels.

 

[warriorman222]

Never mind.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't think the difference even really matter for gameplay.

More worried about setting up every station with your specific MII taking thirty years.

There should be some "default" Miis, but if you bring a DS or whatever you can use that.

I'm just totally against some convoluted rule system and weight classes and what not

 

[NairWizard]

They were heavily buffed and yet still not the top 2 in the game with customs on (Or at least not runnaway top 2 they-need-their-own-tier). Without customs, neither are top tier.

That means they aren't overbuffed. Simply buffed more than expected. As long as nobody becomes an MK style need-their-own-tier character, I don't care how many buffs a character gets. I'd rather characters all climb up in power rather than nerfing down to lower levels.

The problem is that the more you buff mid-tier characters without buffing low-tier characters, the worse low-tier characters get comparatively. Ike and Shulk were already decent characters; they needed small buffs to do well against the upper-tier characters without being overpowered relative to low-tier characters.

I guess Ike without customs is balanced though, at the least.

 

[A2ZOMG]

They were heavily buffed and yet still not the top 2 in the game with customs on (Or at least not runnaway top 2 they-need-their-own-tier). Without customs, neither are top tier.

That means they aren't overbuffed. Simply buffed more than expected. As long as nobody becomes an MK style need-their-own-tier character, I don't care how many buffs a character gets. I'd rather characters all climb up in power rather than nerfing down to lower levels.

Some characters are so poorly designed like Sonic that they probably shouldn't have been competitive in the first place.

 

[Flamecircle]

Definitely feels like the side blastzones are smaller. Should be really easy to test- use ganon's punch at the edge of FD. I'll do it later if someone else doesn't.

Edit: Done.

3ds: 42% death.
WiiU: 32% death.

Sweetspot ganon sparta kick kills at 104% with rage on the wiiU, and 112% on the DS.

Ganon dtilt kills at 121% on the wiiU, and 126% on the 3ds.
So yes, they're smaller. Is 10% significant when scaled with warlock punch? Hopefully someone better with smash numbers can tell us.

I think it's worth noting blast zones are smaller. What does this mean for impressions? I don't know, but I assume characters who struggled to edge out the KO will be slightly better.

And Lucario will be slightly worse.

 

[warriorman222]

Some characters are so poorly designed like Sonic that they probably shouldn't have been competitive in the first place.

Like how he sucked in Brawl, then gets a few buffs and rises all the way to top tier. Same with Yoshi. the poor designing of so many characters makes them terrible but then become top tiers with even a few buffs. Like Sonic, Shiek and Yoshi. Namco is just as bad at balancing as Nintendo is. Whoever made the most balanced fighting game ever should work for Sakurai.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I did some Shulk testing to confirm my suspicions about Buster. I wanted to see how punishable Shulk's f-tilt is at various ranges, so I had a friend space f-tilts on my shield. The results were very interesting.

At tipper range:
-Both Speed Shulk and Standard Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be punished by any attack that Little Mac had.

At blade range (as in, not tipper, closer to middle of the blade):
-Speed Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt and f-smash.
-Standard Shulk could get punished by Little Mac f-tilt but not by f-smash.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be punished by any attack that Little Mac had.

At close range (as in, close enough for Little Mac to jab):
-Speed Shulk could get punished by jab, f-tilt, f-smash, pretty much everything. Same goes for Standard Shulk.
-Buster Shulk couldn't be hit by jab, because the shield pushback was too much, but he could be hit by f-tilt. F-smash was *still* not possible.

I'd like to continue testing other characters (as well as aerials), but my conclusion is that Buster Shulk is flat out superior to every other Shulk by quite a bit, and Speed is rather underwhelming.

He only takes +13% damage from being in Buster now, compared to the +40% that he deals back to the other side. In exchange, he's much safer, and his attacks have less knockback--and this is an advantage rather than a disadvantage because it makes traps and followups easier to achieve.

Buster Shulk and Ike are both significantly overbuffed; the buffs were very inappropriate imo, and both are easily top 5 contenders with customs (Decisive Arts for Shulk, all moves for Ike). You can't punish well-spaced attacks from either character.

In response, in Speed I would have just grabbed Mac, and followed into B/U/D throw.

Buster was also failing to break Lloid Rocket half the time which was something I hoped it would do consistently. Breaking into their zone is still easier with Speed and a Dash/Pivot grab gets passed the shield entirely instead of worrying about their response OoS.
However, this is awesome to hear nonetheless and I'll have to revisit bustah.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Like how he sucked in Brawl, then gets a few buffs and rises all the way to top tier. Same with Yoshi. the poor designing of so many characters makes them terrible but then become top tiers with even a few buffs. Like Sonic, Shiek and Yoshi. Namco is just as bad at balancing as Nintendo is. Whoever made the most balanced fighting game ever should work for Sakurai.

Namco's balance is really REALLY good from what I've seen. Their balance is so good, that damage per hit literally defines tiers in this game.

Sonic as we know the game now doesn't dominate most of the cast nearly as hard as Fox/Falco or Metaknight did. It's just the way Sonic is now, there's virtually no way he can be adjusted to not be totally cancerous to play against. Sonic promotes degenerative gameplay, whether he's good or bad competitively because by design, he doesn't allow a lot of counterplay.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

@ Wii Fit Bae You'll never be able to convince these people. Don't bother lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

Namco's balance philosophy is usually lets homogenize some options and have the metagame revolve around 2 or 3 general goals and give everyone solid tools to achieve that goal(s). Tekken is very juggle heavy. EVERYONE in the game wants to juggle their opponent. It's also very oki heavy. Some characters excel at one or the other some excel at both.

Soul Caliber has directional influence like Smash, so it's less juggle heavy. Focused more on neutral game and oki. Juggles usually consist of one or two hits, anything after that is not guaranteed. Greater focus on leaving yourself in optimal position after a small juggle and gaining positional advantage. Neutral is super important in Soul Caliber. Basically everyone has decent neutral options. Really comes down to who has safer pokes and who can create a mix-up/trap situation.

..........
................................

Wait....am I talking about Soul Caliber or Smash?

ummmm...uhhh..wut i dont...wait...****..

anyway yeah thats why i like Xianghua cuz she...I mean no this is Smash, so I meant Marth because.....

GAWDDAMIIT

 

[TTTTTsd]

That is this entire game in a nutshell. Simplified options that brings about something that basically lets a vast majority (if not all) members of this cast be playable in a competitive aspect. Some obvious win out more frequently but for the most part it's like, damn, nobody sucks in this game! (Except maybe Olimar)

 

[Spinosaurus]

Namco is just as bad at balancing as Nintendo is. Whoever made the most balanced fighting game ever should work for Sakurai.

Soo...Namco? Tekken Tag 2 is arguably the most balanced fighter from the past years.

 

[Emblem Lord]

btw...if you can't see Namco's influence I don't know what to say.

I mean, come on now...rage mechanic anyone?

And if you think Namco never made clones or useless clones for that matter guess again.

Xianghua - Hwang - Yunsung

Astaroth - Rock (Sad as hell because Rock is trash in everyway compared to Astaroth in virtually every Soul Caliber game)

Sophitia - Lizardman - Cassandra

Mitsurugi - Yoshimitsu

Taki - Natsu

 

[TTTTTsd]

As long as Dr. Mario and Ganondorf can fight matchups that are REASONABLY winnable, I am okay with this game.

The minute that changes though, lol.

 

[Spinosaurus]

btw...if you can't see Namco's influence I don't know what to say.

I mean, come on now...rage mechanic anyone?

I'm actually surprised not a lot made the Tekken connection when rage was discovered. I'm like "**** its tekken 6 all over again" lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I accept Sanic as being dumb now after the past 2 days of playing Smash 4.

A couple others too, but mostly sanic and hurts even more that my (yoshi's) pivot grab was nerfed so yah. I don't have as many options against him like I used too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Namco's balance is really REALLY good from what I've seen. Their balance is so good, that damage per hit literally defines tiers in this game.

Sonic as we know the game now doesn't dominate most of the cast nearly as hard as Fox/Falco or Metaknight did. It's just the way Sonic is now, there's virtually no way he can be adjusted to not be totally cancerous to play against. Sonic promotes degenerative gameplay, whether he's good or bad competitively because by design, he doesn't allow a lot of counterplay.

I've seen your arguments about Sonic multiple times.

All I'll say to that is that I disagree heavily with him being "cancerous". My bar for being a cancer in SSB is Meta Knight. Forcing a different playing style is not a bad thing to me, we have characters that do that all of the time. You're going to play differently against Link than you do against DK. I don't see any of the forced playstyles that come up as "degenerative" because none of them have reached MK level of "If I touch any button I'm going to be eating heavy damage and/or tossed off the stage while most likely not being able to recover". He's not that different from Brawl Sonic in terms of playing style, and that's the one character who I got to experience at the top of their meta (Espy).

"Annoying to fight against" and "degenerative" are two very different things. Sonic was annoying in Brawl, all he is is annoying in SSB4.

You could also just... turn customs on. Sonic gets his one great custom option, other characters benefit more. He overall loses ground when customs are on.

And my last point: according to you, there is no realistic way to change him to prevent him from being "degenerative". If that's the case, why waste time complaining about him when realistically nothing can be done? He's not bannable, and he's not "fixable".

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Namco's balance is really REALLY good from what I've seen. Their balance is so good, that damage per hit literally defines tiers in this game.

Sonic as we know the game now doesn't dominate most of the cast nearly as hard as Fox/Falco or Metaknight did. It's just the way Sonic is now, there's virtually no way he can be adjusted to not be totally cancerous to play against. Sonic promotes degenerative gameplay, whether he's good or bad competitively because by design, he doesn't allow a lot of counterplay.

Ik at least u kno that she's good. I've seen u in the Wii fit trainer threads U kno that she's good

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm much more ok with Sonic on the Wii U version. As Marth I can do some things and he still has to respect the sword. You can play much more re-actively on the console version. His design IS nonsense, but you can shut down alot of it with proper option usage as long as your reactions are solid.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly a lot of things are easier to deal with on wiiU version. The better controls and more precise movements let me squeeze more out of Doc, Ganon, and Falcon than I could before, it even lets me properly play a bit of Falco (who I appreciate a lot more now)

 

[Hippieslayer]

What is shulks defensive stance good for? I have a hard time picturing any situation where you would want to use it, the drawbacks are just too big

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not dying.

 

[warriorman222]

btw...if you can't see Namco's influence I don't know what to say.

I mean, come on now...rage mechanic anyone?

I didn't say i didn't see their influence(Tekken 6 here we come). But balancing a normal fighter and balancing Smash are 2 very diffrent things. Namco is really good at one, and could be better at another imo. Sure no character sucks but whoever gave them the idea that Olimar and Pac man needed nerfs in those way needs to be fired(lol jk). Sure they got buffs, but losing the ability to respectively call Pikmin from faling off the stage, and bairing the Hydrant in one hit is a big hurt. Faster grab for Pac and better Fsmash for Olimar barely makes up if at all.

 

[Freezie KO]

I'm much more ok with Sonic on the Wii U version. As Marth I can do some things and he still has to respect the sword. You can play much more re-actively on the console version. His design IS nonsense, but you can shut down alot of it with proper option usage as long as your reactions are solid.

Meh. He's still annoying to play against. I don't think he's a better character necessarily than a ZSS or Rosalina or Diddy, but I'd much rather play against one of those three than Sonic.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Diddy Kong. Diddy Kong everywhere. Seems like the character is starting to take over the competitive scene of Smash 4.

Although I'd accept a metagame of all Diddy dittos if it means we we to see less Sanic. **** Sanic. Games against Sanic are like a trip to the dentist.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Not dying.

It seems to me that it increases Shulks chance of dying before his opponent anyway because it makes him much more susceptible to dying offstage, and since he rarely manages to do much damage (let alone net a kill) while in it he usually just ends up taking a lot more damage than he dishes out. Then when defensive stance runs out he's in the same situation he was in before except its less favourable percent wise.

Apart from using it to nullify comboes and **** at low to mid percents against opponents who can't counter that by camping him it really seems useless to me.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What is shulks defensive stance good for? I have a hard time picturing any situation where you would want to use it, the drawbacks are just too big

Not dying?
If both you and your teammate are a KO percents but you throw on Shield and now you aren't at KO percents but you can still kill them? Well works out just fine. It decreases their damage so your shield stun should be lowered to boot.
While not advised a few low % combos kind of flop because you don't really leave the ground due to weight and their damage loss. To put it another way, if im feeling unconfident but I already know I just need a good hit in. Why not just throw on shield? As well Shield can be put on when your throw in the air, to help your chances of reaching the ground.
Either a) you escape or b) you fall in their trap but are fine because of Shield. Then you can switch out once you reach the ground.

It seems to me that it increases Shulks chance of dying before his opponent anyway because it makes him much more susceptible to dying offstage, and since he rarely manages to do much damage (let alone net a kill) while in it he usually just ends up taking a lot more damage than he dishes out. Then we defensive stance runs out he's in the same situation he was in before except in a less favourable situation percent wise.

Apart from using it to nullify comboes and **** at low to mid percents against opponents who can't counter that by camping him it really seems useless to me.

They knock you off stage. You triple tap B, now you are in Jump Monado.
You recover.
They knock you up vertically, you triple tap B from vanilla or 5 tap from any art, now you're in shield. They may try to get you again but now you're secure. Successfully land or fail to land but receive little punishment because of Shield and try again.
If they can camp you out then you don't bother but if they, it's a bit of insurance.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've seen your arguments about Sonic multiple times.

All I'll say to that is that I disagree heavily with him being "cancerous". My bar for being a cancer in SSB is Meta Knight. Forcing a different playing style is not a bad thing to me, we have characters that do that all of the time. You're going to play differently against Link than you do against DK. I don't see any of the forced playstyles that come up as "degenerative" because none of them have reached MK level of "If I touch any button I'm going to be eating heavy damage and/or tossed off the stage while most likely not being able to recover". He's not that different from Brawl Sonic in terms of playing style, and that's the one character who I got to experience at the top of their meta (Espy).

"Annoying to fight against" and "degenerative" are two very different things. Sonic was annoying in Brawl, all he is is annoying in SSB4.

You could also just... turn customs on. Sonic gets his one great custom option, other characters benefit more. He overall loses ground when customs are on.

And my last point: according to you, there is no realistic way to change him to prevent him from being "degenerative". If that's the case, why waste time complaining about him when realistically nothing can be done? He's not bannable, and he's not "fixable".

Something that isn't "fixable" at the very least shouldn't be very strong competitively, from a design standpoint. It's favorable for the health of competitive gameplay. Sonic is both technically overpowered, and is by design nonsense. That instantly warrants nerfs.

In Jojo ASB, Nacmo made Iggy that way. He's pretty BS to play against by design because in Stand Off mode, he's by far the smallest character in the game, like, think Kirby crouching perpetually the entire game. Bottom tier character too (extremely low life), and that's for the better of the game.

Sonic's gameplay is degenerative because it doesn't promote smart decisions. Against Sonic, you either have a safe spammable projectile that stops him from running for free, or the almost the entire game against him is just a straight guessing game. Very little reaction or strategy involved. You just fish for him making mistakes over and over and hope he dies before you. Sonic doesn't even have a seriously terrible negative state to take advantage of to really counterbalance him.

I should make clear, Sonic is not the only character that has a poor design that probably shouldn't be competitive. He just happens to be the strongest competitive example of a poor design in this game, one that pretty blatantly breaks the conventional rules established by most characters. Unlike Little Mac and Falcon who at least are plagued by a terrible negative state to counterbalance their dominant mobility...Sonic just doesn't allow you to do anything interesting.

afaik most of the other strong characters in this game have a few things that are overtuned, but evening out the overall power levels would reveal there isn't as much wrong with them design-wise. This is especially obvious in Diddy, Yoshi, and Lucario. Diddy doesn't need the best U-air in the game, Yoshi gets noticeable milage because virtually all of his attacks do Falco level damage or something, and Lucario probably would be much less cringe-worthy by slightly shifting him away from his massive aura scaling.

 

[Hippieslayer]

@ ChronoPenguin : Yeah but he can't chase and rack up damage while in defensive stance, killing becomes a lot harder too. Sure it can work but chances are he's just gonna be taking more damage than his opponent. In such a situation I think he's better of just using buster and ko stance in order to be able to make a quick comeback :O

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yeah but he can't chase and rack up damage while in defensive stance, killing becomes a lot harder too. Sure it can work but chances are he's just gonna be taking more damage than his opponent. In such a situation I think he's better of just using buster and ko stance in order to be able to make a quick comeback :O

You may not need to rack up damage however. They may already be killable or at least can be put for an edgeguard. You're biding your time for a favorable situation while coming into them so that they cannot merely wait you out. Basically Shield is low risk and low reward relative to other options but since it is low risk that in itself is a reward. A hit can turn everything around. If Lil Mac hits KO punch I drop into Shield, now I don't have to care unless im at a higher % where shield wouldn't help me. Which means I can approach into the KO punch and try my chances given I know I wont die.
Shield has well high Shield life, if they can't projectile camp you out, then their options are really what? Grab? If they approach you can throw out an aerial or shield grab, given shulks range majority of people would be zoned out.

Its almost a shame it didn't get a damage boost with Shield but to take it in.
Their damage is reduced 33%, yours is reduced 3%. So you really achieve party between the two of you, the only thing to wonder is how big your loss of speed is relative to them and if they're approaching on to you its a bit of a wash.

 

[NairWizard]

What is shulks defensive stance good for? I have a hard time picturing any situation where you would want to use it, the drawbacks are just too big

Trela was using it against NAKAT in the crew battle to avoid dying to Ness' b-throw, which allowed him to actually attack Ness past a certain % without fear that his stock would be ripped off.

 

[Hippieslayer]

You may not need to rack up damage however. They may already be killable or at least can be put for an edgeguard. You're biding your time for a favorable situation while coming into them so that they cannot merely wait you out. Basically Shield is low risk and low reward relative to other options but since it is low risk that in itself is a reward.
Shield has well high Shield life, if they can't projectile camp you out, then their options are really what? Grab? If they approach you can throw out an aerial or shield grab, given shulks range majority of people would be zoned out.

Yeah but most characters have some kinda projectile and Shulk in defensive stance isn't hard to camp because he's slow as **** in it. It's not as easy for him to keep people out when he's that slow either, despite his range. He can't space aerials as well with that slow speed, especially not retreating ones.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Trela was using it against NAKAT in the crew battle to avoid dying to Ness' b-throw, which allowed him to actually attack Ness past a certain % without fear that his stock would be ripped off.

That's true, making throw not work as a kill option is neat. But what happens if Ness just plays it safe until it runs out? It might work in some ways now, but I ain't seeing much potential.

Where can I see this crew battle btw? I don't I seen it and I wanna see all of Trela's Shulk badly

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What are they going to do? Your shield is stronger. Their option is grab, given that pressuring your shield is less practical than normal. If they can camp its one thing, but as far as keeping people out, you aren't trying to with Shield.
It's relevant when you have a stock lead, as unless they're planning to time out in your advantage, or again they can effectively pressure from range they have to come in. You can hold on to your stock and not be worried about the shield pressure so you can focus on zoning out their grab.