Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

Ok then. I misinterpreted what I read then. Thanks for that clarification.

 

[NairWizard]

Is there a character with a positive matchup against Diddy Kong in a no-customs environment? Looking at the roster, I can't find a single candidate with the possible exception of Villager, and that's because Villager can remove the banana from play for the entire match. Rosalina is still not a free matchup, either.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Punishing Ike is more difficult than punishing any other character in the game except for Sonic/Sheik/Pikachu, and Ike's hits hurt more than most of theirs do.

His f-air autocancels at full hop height, which means you cannot punish it; if he misspaces and you try to shieldgrab he can just land right outside of your range and d-tilt you, and his d-tilt is now much faster and has always been disjointed, so you aren't going to win that little scuffle. It is very difficult to challenge an Ike who is just spacing autocanceled f-airs all over the place, because by the time you can get in past that range he's just jabbing you.

His b-air does 13-14% damage and has enough shieldstun that you can't punish it by shielding it. He can just land and turn-around to jab on you.

Maximally spaced f-tilt is very difficult to punish as well; Ike can jab right away.

Up-air is basically risk-free when you are above Ike because it is so disjointed.

Ike now has combos, like n-air to b-air or up-throw to up-air or d-tilt to n-air. And his combos do significantly more damage than other characters' combos, and he kills super early with b-air now (the knockback is ridiculous), so you'll be dying *really* quickly against Ike. He himself is decently heavy so he won't be dying nearly as early.

His problem is getting juggled and harassed when he's offstage/in the air, as well as some difficulty dealing with characters who shoot projectiles and run away like Fox, which is the reason that he's not top tier without customs. When he has customs, that all changes. Close Combat tears through projectiles like they were paper, and Aether Drive is fantastic for recovery (you can also use Aether Wave to get a projectile of your own). Tempest pops him up, giving him a landing option, and is one of the best gimping moves in the game (seriously, just charge this thing at the ledge or jump off and use it: it kills ridiculously easily, and people will have a hard time recovering high enough to avoid it because f-air covers a lot of angles).

Ike is definitely top tier with customs, top 5 in the game easily.
Top 15 (maybe 20?) without customs, though.

Time out.
What is Ike's attack with the fastest start-up?
Sonic, Paletuna and a shulk can't punish fair? I'm skeptical of that.

 

[FRiSKruns]

Time out.
What is Ike's attack with the fastest start-up?
Sonic, Paletuna and a shulk can't punish fair? I'm skeptical of that.

That doesn't appear to be at all what he was saying.

He said Ike is harder to punish than everyone EXCEPT those characters.

ie. saying that Ike is hard to punish, and only THEY are harder to punish for their mistakes.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You're right its my misunderstanding.

 

[deepseadiva]

Link is still not an especially good character but is much less hopeless than before. @ deepseadiva my interpretation of Link is very much based on the fact that he hasn't improved much from past Smash games, really. He's still the same character. There are changes to the way the game works that make him better and he did receive some improvements, but I still don't think he's magically improved to the point that he has a 6-4 match-up against any top tier character. It's not reasonable. So far.

Fair point.

As much as I'm trying to be open to this ****All NEW Smash Brothers**** this game is... less deep than some people make it out, and honestly the changes are less drastic as some would say. Carryover is very valid.

Also he mentioned "Link has one of the best recoveries in the game now" - which is kind of a crazy thing to say considering Hero Slash has basically always been ass. And if thats true (someone please comment on that), combined with bombs, an always amazing amazing item, I could see some big things happening with Link.

 

[NairWizard]

observations and things (is the reason I like this topic: so many useful observations):

Had some very insightful Shulk games today. Will share the insights at some later point once I've consolidated my thoughts, but the more I reflect on Shulk the better and better he seems to me. I can't see this character outside of top 10, but top 10 is getting more and more crowded in my head.

Kind of disappointed with Peach's neutral game with a GCN controller in my hands. I'm able to do all the float release mixups now (which I had trouble with on the 3DS), but I just don't find that they've enhanced my gameplay that much. On the 3DS version I did nothing but walk back and forth and shield, and sometimes float very high in neutral. I had predicted that the jump from that basic strategy to mixing up floating at various heights and throwing out autocanceled u-airs/f-airs/n-airs would improve Peach a lot. That doesn't seem to have been the case, though I'm sure that other Peach mains might feel differently.

Don't get me wrong, there is definitely an improvement. It's not vast though: in most situations, the opponent responds to my play the same way he would to my old strategy. Safe/large aerials seem to be Peach's biggest problem (Jigglypuff, Robin, Shulk, Ike... Diddy too because of that f-air). Peach is great at shield pressure and in advantage in general, but the neutral game is really difficult, and so is resetting (it's difficult to land sometimes, and her default recovery, as good as it is, is slow and characters like Pikachu can run off and b-air her).

I'll have to try harder to innovate with this character.

 

[Lavani]

Also he mentioned "Link has one of the best recoveries in the game now" - which is kind of a crazy thing to say considering Hero Slash has basically always been ***. And if thats true (someone please comment on that), combined with bombs, an always amazing amazing item, I could see some big things happening with Link.

To put things in perspective, double jump>upB gets Bowser significantly more horizontal distance than Link, and a tinge more vertical.

This isn't accounting for bomb recoveries of course, but yeah.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

@ NairWizard Wii fit trainer should be top with the customs
She has a freaking brawl meta knight tornado for crying out loud
All her customs R good and makes her have no reason to use the defaults
Go check them out

 

[Nobie]

I know this affects pretty much every character in the game to some extent, but the c-stick is such an incredible boon to Mega Man that I feel that it probably changes a good number of his matchups.

First, the ability to do retreating fairs makes his Flame Sword go from being really unsafe on block if done close to the ground (and always invited shield grabs) to a move that can leave enough space to avoid the shield grab by a significant margin. Some characters I imagine can still punish it (like Captain Falcon's ridiculous dash grab), but I can see him becoming more powerful against characters with slower dashes and/or shorter dash attacks.

Second, Mega Man can now safely perform his down-air anytime without fear of accidentally fast falling. Sure, you technically could have done that by just not tilting the stick far but this makes things so much easier. Now, instead of having to short hop first to do a Hard Knuckle edge guard you can even just run off the stage and hit c-stick down, allowing you to reach further below than before while still enjoying the relative safety of its projectile properties. It used to be that if you wanted to meteor someone, you usually had to hit them at the moment right before they get to the ledge, but now it'll be possible to connect it well before they even get to that point, which I think will enhance his ability to take out characters who really prefer to recover low.

Third, though this probably the one I'm least sure of, fast fall down-airs might have potential to add to the throw game mix-ups Mega Man already has, as well as a way to quickly avoid attacks from above and retaliate from a safe distance.

 

[Luco]

I can't see this character outside of top 10, but top 10 is getting more and more crowded in my head.

Haha, this is something i've noticed since almost the beginning of this thread. Everyone keeps saying "I just can't see this character outside of top 15" and i'm sitting here like "Oh, in addition to the other 30 characters you told me were in the exact same position? Cool, i'll add it to the list then." I like that you made the observation. :D

I think we get 'wow'-ed by a character to the point where their advantages are inflated because we watched them for a bit and they had a solid gameplan that stuck together quite fluidly. The biggest area that this happens to is our main for obvious reasons - we have that gameplan with them and win frequently, so more often than not people will over-estimate the capabilities of their main (@Kofu could be totally right, and Ness for instance is only high or perhaps lower, I think his weaknesses are certainly big enough to warrant that discussion... and yet coming from my standpoint it's so hard not to go "well you can work around his recovery" because i've done it and will continue to do it until someone finally bodies me in tournament because of it ). Then other characters we play fit into that 'fluid gameplan' slot and we assume their options will cover their weaknesses.

But I digress

I think we just have to separate 'gee this character is good' from 'does this character have strengths comparable to our roughly-perceived top tier?' and then that sentiment comes out slightly less often so as not to muddle up the process of deciding who goes where. So instead of being like "X character has such and such strengths, he/she just HAS to be top 15", we can be more like "Well we already have a rough idea of who's strong and why, so let's get X character and see how his match-ups appear, whether his strengths can dominate the meta (important), what supporting results he/she has..." etc.

I'm not quite sure if what I wanted to say got across... hmm, but anyway, I must say I like that the game seems balanced enough for most of the cast to seem like they COULD be top X, even if we do have to eventually bite the bullet somewhere down that line and give them an actual order.

And once the first tier list gets done, the subsequent ones I think become a little easier. It's like trying to build and having all your building materials in storage as opposed to having them on the field with you in a rough order. In storage it's so hard to unpack them and build from there, but at least if they're on the field and you have some idea of where to put them, it's a bit easier to move and switch them around to fit what you're thinking.

Disclaimer: I'm not a builder, so I have no idea if this is what builders would actually do, but hopefully it somewhat illustrates my point by simplifying it through an analogy, even if the analogy is flawed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not sure what you're tagging for, SFP lol. Also, I think you're overrating Peach a bit if you think she's top tier. She's good but I don't see her as very good at this point.

Shulk and Ike are overbuffed btw.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not sure what you're tagging for, SFP lol. Also, I think you're overrating Peach a bit if you think she's top tier. She's good but I don't see her as very good at this point.

Shulk and Ike are overbuffed btw.

I tagged you because I want to know if you still think the game is really top-heavy.

The game changed a bit recently so I don't know who is where anymore at this point except that ZSS is a little better relative to the other good characters because her nerfs were less meaningful. And the only reason I have even stopped to think about that is because I play her.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't remember ever saying the game is really top-heavy? If so I retract it. I don't really have an opinion on it right now. With so many characters in the game it's gonna be difficult to make any prediction so I'd rather stay neutral and analyze things as they are and not draw hasty conclusions.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Been playing alot offline with my friend.

On the wii u version you can truly feel the difference between tiers more so now thanks to responsive controls.

I am very pleased with marth. Dont know what tier he is nor do i care. He feels amazing to move with and being able to do utilize all my traps effectively.

The greatest compliment i recieved was when my friend said marth is bull****.

Hit his fox with a tipper fsmash at the edge of fd at 50. Dead fox.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Wii fit trainer is probably gonna stay mid. She has some great match ups vs top characters and some against low characters. Some matchups for her R just horrible like jigglypuff and kirby. She has an advantage over ZSS since she can crouch under most of ZSSs moves. She has a combo game, projectile game, and camping game. She has tools to be a good character. She's good but she's not high or low tier. also since her moves require precision the GC controller will make her even better.

Is there a character with a positive matchup against Diddy Kong in a no-customs environment? Looking at the roster, I can't find a single candidate with the possible exception of Villager, and that's because Villager can remove the banana from play for the entire match. Rosalina is still not a free matchup, either.

Wii fit trainer actually does well against him. All the diddys I played werent a problem

Anti's wii fit trainer vs Zinoto and Ally's Diddy kong
http://youtu.be/52opV7-nMhs
http://youtu.be/Yul5rDqemA4

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Not sure what you're tagging for, SFP lol. Also, I think you're overrating Peach a bit if you think she's top tier. She's good but I don't see her as very good at this point.

Shulk and Ike are overbuffed btw.

Default Ike does not come off as potent as Marth to me so I wouldn't say overbuffed.

 

[Berserker.]

Wii fit trainer actually does well against him. All the diddys I played werent a problem

Anti's wii fit trainer vs Zinoto and Ally's Diddy kong
http://youtu.be/52opV7-nMhs
http://youtu.be/Yul5rDqemA4

Wasn't that match with Zinoto said to be extremely laggy?

I tried giving Mii Swordfighter a shot after that discussion about "Smash Calibur". His range is okay and his damage output is really poor. His chakrams are alright. The MAIN problem with the Mii swordsfighter is that all his disadvantages outnumber his advantages. His damage output is weak, his attacks have lag, lack of safe attacks which means that he lacks spacing options.... His only distinct advantage is that his range is... alright and chakrams are alright. I don't know what this character is suppose to be. He's definitely not a fast-weak character type. If he's suppose to be a hard hitter, none of his moves except his neutral B 3 hit hard. He's not that all around either because his attacks have noticeable lag.

If anyone thinks this character isn't beyond redemption, maybe you should convince me that he isn't. I'm all eyes

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Wii fit trainer is probably gonna stay mid. She has some great match ups vs top characters and some against low characters. Some matchups for her R just horrible like jigglypuff and kirby. She has an advantage over ZSS since she can crouch under most of ZSSs moves. She has a combo game, projectile game, and camping game. She has tools to be a good character. She's good but she's not high or low tier. also since her moves require precision the GC controller will make her even better.

Wft vs
Shulk, Ike, Marth, Lucina, Toon Link, Link, (d)pit, metaknight, mii swordsman, Mii Gunner, Donkey Kong, Lucario, villager, dhd, peach, customs Paletuna, g&W?, Pikachu, Greninja.

Far as I can tell all of these are unfavourable for her. Someone should check if gust cape gets through Jumbo hoop.

Long reach, disjoints or small frames. Add that to Kirby and jiggly how is she mid? Unless she 6:4s diddy, sheik, Rosalina, yoshi, etc to cement her as a counter-meta pick. She probably isn't.

Pretty sure for example that most swordsman can go right through jumbo hoop from multiple angles and there is a lot of good sword users.

So the real question is, stay mid? When was she ever mid? She has good customs but half the cast still deals with her just fine if not more.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

She 6:4s diddy. She has no problem dealing with him.
Rosalina and her I would say is even. She has nothing that walls her out and it's just a decent match up.
The only reason that link and toon link were problems was because the bomb lag cancel. Now it's a good match up for her against link not sure bout toon link doe.
Ike can't deal with her projectiles nuff said.
Palutena isn't a bad match up. It's not a good matchup but it's not bad for her either
DK isn't a bad match up either
The rest R right

Also she has good matchups against ZSS and diddy 2 great top tiers

1/3 of the MUs are good
1/3 are decent
1/3 are bad
She's mid for sure

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Default Ike does not come off as potent as Marth to me so I wouldn't say overbuffed.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest had 1.0.3 Ike already been better than Marth, especially with custom specials in play. Marth isn't that good. Ike wasn't that bad. The difference between them wasn't that big. There was nothing to justify the quantitfy and quality of buffs he has received. He's overbuffed.

 

[Berserker.]

I might come off as offensive but I just noticed, why are people pulling MU numbers out of their ass?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest had 1.0.3 Ike already been better than Marth, especially with custom specials in play. Marth isn't that good. Ike wasn't that bad. The difference between them wasn't that big. There was nothing to justify the quantitfy and quality of buffs he has received. He's overbuffed.

I dunno, man, Sakurai has access to all that online For Glory data.

I mean, do you have access to For Glory data?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I might come off as offensive but I just noticed, why are people pulling MU numbers out of their ***?

Because that's all we can do right now with MUs.

Really, give it time for specific MU talk imo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I might come off as offensive but I just noticed, why are people pulling MU numbers out of their ***?

Maybe offensive but who gives a ****? You're right and that's all that matters.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Wasn't that match with Zinoto said to be extremely laggy?

I tried giving Mii Swordfighter a shot after that discussion about "Smash Calibur". His range is okay and his damage output is really poor. His chakrams are alright. The MAIN problem with the Mii swordsfighter is that all his disadvantages outnumber his advantages. His damage output is weak, his attacks have lag, lack of safe attacks which means that he lacks spacing options.... His only distinct advantage is that his range is... alright and chakrams are alright. I don't know what this character is suppose to be. He's definitely not a fast-weak character type. If he's suppose to be a hard hitter, none of his moves except his neutral B 3 hit hard. He's not that all around either because his attacks have noticeable lag.

If anyone thinks this character isn't beyond redemption, maybe you should convince me that he isn't. I'm all eyes

Just look at his aerials, down 2 and D-throw. Neutral B 3 is probably bad anyways it seems some characters can just DI out of the hits, leaving him with Shuriken/Gale strike as options. Shuriken becoming somewhat redundant if you take Chakram. So Shuriken typically forces Slash Launcher, unless you're confident about hard reads with neutral 1.

She 6:4s diddy. She has no problem dealing with him.
Rosalina and her I would say is even. She has nothing that walls her out and it's just a decent match up.
The only reason that link and toon link were problems was because the bomb lag cancel. Now it's a good match up for her against link not sure bout toon link doe.
Ike can't deal with her projectiles nuff said.
Palutena isn't a bad match up. It's not a good matchup but it's not bad for her either
DK isn't a bad match up either
The rest R right

Also she has good matchups against ZSS and diddy 2 great top tiers

1/3 of the MUs are good
1/3 are decent
1/3 are bad
She's mid for sure

You've got a stronger argument or support of other players that she 6:4's diddy? To be frank I don't believe it.
Nor do I buy that the Links are a good match-up.

 

[PK Gaming]

Because that's all we can do right now with MUs.

Really, give it time for specific MU talk imo

I disagree, matchup numbers are generally pretty worthless. Sometimes they're even harmful, as i've seen matchup threads devolve into bickering over the ratio values. Discussing the matchup itself is far more valuable than arbitrarily attaching numbers to a given matchup.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I disagree, matchup numbers are generally pretty worthless. Sometimes they're even harmful, as i've seen matchup thread devolve into bickering over the ratio values. Discussing the matchup itself is far more valuable than some numbers.

That's actually why I meant sort of. By the whole "That's all we can do", I was meaning is that none of us really know what were talking about yet so were just saying whatever makes sense to ourselves.

The lack of meaningful discussion is just leading to random ratios, yeah.

Also I should have elaborated more on the specific MU stuff. I was meaning ratios there too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I officially proclaim Yoshi vs Bowser Jr. to be 8:2 in Jr.'s favor, Olimar to be a secret hard counter to Lucario and Mii Swordfighter vs Rosalina is even if not in Mii's favor. Oh, and did you know that Diddy actually loses at least 4:6 against Doctor Mario?

Take my word for it because I won't actually tell you where I have these numbers from or explain how the matchpus work. But I've played it on For Glory and against friends and I promise you that they are 100% accurate.

 

[Berserker.]

That's actually why I meant sort of. By the whole "That's all we can do", I was meaning is that none of us really know what were talking about yet so were just saying whatever makes sense to ourselves.

The lack of meaningful discussion is just leading to random ratios, yeah.

Also I should have elaborated more on the specific MU stuff. I was meaning ratios there too.

It's still not a good reason or excuse to make ratios out of thin air

Just look at his aerials, down 2 and D-throw. Neutral B 3 is probably bad anyways it seems some characters can just DI out of the hits, leaving him with Shuriken/Gale strike as options. Shuriken becoming somewhat redundant if you take Chakram. So Shuriken typically forces Slash Launcher, unless you're confident about hard reads with neutral 1

Alriiiiight, I'll give him another shot then. I think I was paying attention to his ground game too much

 

[KlefkiHolder]

It's still not a good reason or excuse to make ratios out of thin air

Yeah, I know. That's why I asked if we could stop with the ratios because we have virtually nothing to base them off of right now.

 

[Lavani]

Olimar to be a secret hard counter to Lucario and Mii Swordfighter vs Rosalina is even if not in Mii's favor.

I don't believe you because you didn't provide me with numbers.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

It's still not a good reason or excuse to make ratios out of thin air

It's why I made a list of characters with attributes that she doesn't enjoy. How does she cope with that?
She has trash range, Well then how does she fair against some of the best melee spacing games?
Neutral and Side are a significant part of her kit, Mii Swordsman has a reflector that turns around, while having swordsman spacing and projectiles of his own. Links are a better Mii Swordsman without the reflector and *less* lag.
Theres a ton of short characters she struggles to hit or whom she allows to approach because she can't shut them out.
With various characters having this against her.
How will see show herself to be in the middle of the pack?
Sweeping Sun salutation is fantastic, and frankly I think it'll be better then enriched in a lot of her fights given the recoveries of people she fights.

Alriiiiight, I'll give him another shot then. I think I was paying attention to his ground game too much

His ground game is Links if you nerfed Links ground game. It's not worth discussing.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

You've got a stronger argument or support of other players that she 6:4's diddy? To be frank I don't believe it.
Nor do I buy that the Links are a good match-up.

Those kinda proved that wii fit trainer has no problem against diddy. Her ftilt is a problem for diddy and her dash. Projectile wise wii fit trainer outclasses him. Sun salutation can stop his bananas and they also let her camp him out. Diddy kong can't gimp her either. They both can combo each other with a throw then uair strings.

With customs she's like OP
Enriched sun makes so much stage control and its a projectile that Kills and does 20 damage. Uncharged it's huge and hovers. It's perfect for stage control. Her huge header leaves and active big ball there so she can hit it and it can fly at them. It can be like a shield so yeah. Jumbo hoops does 30% and can chases them and break shields. It's like meta knight tornado but even better. She beats him with defaults but with customs diddy gets crushed

Link doesn't beat her she's really fast and link isn't. Her speed is a problem for him and he also has a horrible recovery. Their projectiles R both good and he has a tether grab. Tether grabs have so much lag. She might not have an advantage but it's at least even for sure

Deep breathing canceling is really safe and plays mind games. She can do a melee air dodge and they might not kno what to expect.

Even if I can't persuade I still think she's mid. She's not high but she's definitely not low

 

[Berserker.]

Anti vs Zinoto
And
Anti vs Ally

Two set don't determine everything. Especially if there was some lag involved

By that logic, Charizard beats Sheik

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't believe you because you didn't provide me with numbers.

Wtf man, the game's been out for little more than a month and you already expect me to have accurate numbers on EVERYTHING? Fall back, bro.

 

[Tristan_win]

Poor Dedede, Sheik has a inescapable Fthrow into bouncing fish combo till almost 70% thanks to the removal of vertical VI

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Two set don't determine everything. Especially if there was some lag involved

By that logic, Charizard beats Sheik

Tru but the paragraph under that says why.

 

[Nocally]

Haha, this is something i've noticed since almost the beginning of this thread. Everyone keeps saying "I just can't see this character outside of top 15" and i'm sitting here like "Oh, in addition to the other 30 characters you told me were in the exact same position? Cool, i'll add it to the list then." I like that you made the observation. :D

I think we get 'wow'-ed by a character to the point where their advantages are inflated because we watched them for a bit and they had a solid gameplan that stuck together quite fluidly. The biggest area that this happens to is our main for obvious reasons - we have that gameplan with them and win frequently, so more often than not people will over-estimate the capabilities of their main (@Kofu could be totally right, and Ness for instance is only high or perhaps lower, I think his weaknesses are certainly big enough to warrant that discussion... and yet coming from my standpoint it's so hard not to go "well you can work around his recovery" because i've done it and will continue to do it until someone finally bodies me in tournament because of it ). Then other characters we play fit into that 'fluid gameplan' slot and we assume their options will cover their weaknesses.

But I digress

I think we just have to separate 'gee this character is good' from 'does this character have strengths comparable to our roughly-perceived top tier?' and then that sentiment comes out slightly less often so as not to muddle up the process of deciding who goes where. So instead of being like "X character has such and such strengths, he/she just HAS to be top 15", we can be more like "Well we already have a rough idea of who's strong and why, so let's get X character and see how his match-ups appear, whether his strengths can dominate the meta (important), what supporting results he/she has..." etc.

I'm not quite sure if what I wanted to say got across... hmm, but anyway, I must say I like that the game seems balanced enough for most of the cast to seem like they COULD be top X, even if we do have to eventually bite the bullet somewhere down that line and give them an actual order.

And once the first tier list gets done, the subsequent ones I think become a little easier. It's like trying to build and having all your building materials in storage as opposed to having them on the field with you in a rough order. In storage it's so hard to unpack them and build from there, but at least if they're on the field and you have some idea of where to put them, it's a bit easier to move and switch them around to fit what you're thinking.

Disclaimer: I'm not a builder, so I have no idea if this is what builders would actually do, but hopefully it somewhat illustrates my point by simplifying it through an analogy, even if the analogy is flawed.

It makes sense. Even though we don't have a solid tier list, we already have a perceived top tier with rosalina, diddy and sheik etc.
so our meta game is already evolving to the point of counter picking and figuring out match-ups against these characters. You could say we already have some of the "materials" for our building (tier-list). And the more we play, the better picture we get of which materials are better than others, which are going to change no matter what since that is how a meta evolves.

The only problem I see with an early tier-list is that it will change a lot in the beginning, and when people see who is top tier, they will all flock to that character so their meta game evolves even further than the perceived lower-tiers.

 

[Berserker.]

@ ChronoPenguin Oh and hey you were right, Mii swordfighter actually has some good things going for him. His air game is pretty good and you're right about the d-throw. Chakrams are okay. It's the damage output that's a massive turn off. I'm still getting used to his down B reflector. It feels really odd for some reason. It's probably just me. Maybe I'm too used to having counter as my down B (Shulk and Marth main here)