Character Competitive Impressions

[ChronoPenguin]

What are your all opinions on Diddy Kong? .

He better not look at Charizard funny.
#Trela.

 

[NairWizard]

Watched a few bits of the concept matches today pre-invitational:

Mr. R's Sheik looking really sick out here, doesn't seem like this character was nerfed too badly at all, can still kill with the smaller blastzones on Wii U and loss of vertical vectoring.

SlayerZ's Peach also looking super quick. Ness looks like a bad MU though (expected). But this character has so many tricks up her sleeve.

Neither of these characters were nerfed below top tier imo.

 

[Luco]

Yeah though quite a few times in Mr R vs ESAM I was like "Awww man Sheik must be finding this so hard"

Well, not sure what I think about Sheik but that was impressive, really :D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mr. R's Sheik looking really sick out here, doesn't seem like this character was nerfed too badly at all, can still kill with the smaller blastzones on Wii U and loss of vertical vectoring.

Sky said that they're playing the pre-patch version on the stream.

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, Pikachu is sick too. You'll notice how every time Sheik got out of a bad situation at the ledge or something, Pikachu managed to up-b and keep the offensive pressure going.

 

[NairWizard]

Sky said that they're playing the pre-patch version on the stream.

Actually, he said that they're playing the POST-patch version.

edit: oops double post

 

[deepseadiva]

lol

I mean, as much as those matchups are based off how well he does with Link in For Glory, how much of your lol is coming from your Brawl impressions of Link?

We're at day 1. How lol worthy is any opinion really

 

[Psyant]

Yeah, Pikachu is sick too. You'll notice how every time Sheik got out of a bad situation at the ledge or something, Pikachu managed to up-b and keep the offensive pressure going.

One thing I quickly picked up with Pikachu is that Quick Attack is also insane for ledge trumping. If you go off stage to edgeguard someone with Pikachu and they manage to slip past and grab the ledge, you can easily quick attack to it just before they grab it, trump them, nair/bair/dair off the trump and reset the situation. Killed so many people doing this as they drop their guard somewhat when they see they're gonna get back to the ledge before you.

Quick Attack is a pretty good move.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

how much of your lol is coming from your Brawl impressions of Link?

None.

 

[Clemente]

He better not look at Charizard funny.
#Trela.

I meant... what are your "competitive impressions" on Diddy?

 

[NairWizard]

I meant... what are your "competitive impressions" on Diddy?

Diddy's very strong. D-throw to up-air does so much damage, Monkey Flip is a great mixup in 99% of situations (crawldash if you think your opponent will call it) and can lead to escapes, banana leads to throws which leads to up-airs, and f-airs are massive so he automatically beats characters like Jigglypuff and Peach just by spacing f-airs. He has his rough matchups, though. Rosalina was one, might not be as much after the nerfs to her (n-air is much easier to deal with now); Ike with customs is probably another, based on my limited experience in the MU; and Pikachu is yet another--the edgeguards are very real here.

edit: never mind, I think Diddy beats Pikachu, probably was being slightly biased based on my own experiences, but in terms of theory, you can get around the edgeguards, and Diddy onstage is flat-out better and does more damage

 

[deepseadiva]

None.

Oh. Okay good.

Anyways bombs I think are excellent and one of my favorite things about the Links.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think of this game in 3 stages: advantage, disadvantage, and neutral.

In neutral, I am trying to get to advantage.
In advantage, I am trying to maintain my advantage.
In disadvantage, I am trying to get back to neutral.

If my opponent is in the air, off the stage, or just has far less of the stage to his back than I do to mine, I am in advantage. Being in advantage means I can make bolder plays, because the risk:reward is in my favor.
If I'm in the air, off the stage, or just have far less of the stage to my back than my opponent does to his, I am in disadvantage. Being in disadvantage means I have to make more cautious plays until I can get back in neutral. Sometimes making a bold play in disadvantage will allow me to sweep straight from disadvantage to advantage, but that's rare.

If neither of the above is true, then we're in neutral, and I'm playing footsies with my opponent (projectiles + pokes, trying to get at least one hit in so that I can get in the advantage state).

Different characters handle the states differently, and different positions are meant to be handled differently (offstage vs. onstage), but the general principle of smash and fighting games is always the above. If you are in advantage, press your advantage. If you are in disadvantage, try to reset the situation. If you are in neutral, try to get to advantage.

You are the only one that explained it correctly.

Well done.

Btw captain falcon, marcina, and little mac dont care about projectiles and they have none. They are all strong in neutral. Little mac easily having one of the best neutral games in the cast.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link is still not an especially good character but is much less hopeless than before. @ deepseadiva my interpretation of Link is very much based on the fact that he hasn't improved much from past Smash games, really. He's still the same character. There are changes to the way the game works that make him better and he did receive some improvements, but I still don't think he's magically improved to the point that he has a 6-4 match-up against any top tier character. It's not reasonable. So far.

I guess @ ~ Gheb ~ will probably still think I'm being too optimistic, but I still kinda think the lower tier characters are less hopeless than Brawl's for the simple fact that the primary ways low tier characters suck balls have all been softened in some way. That's not to say there won't be low tiers or that top tiers won't create problems for them but I think we're looking at more of an SF4 level of balance than a Brawl or Melee level of balance. Low tiers in past smash games did **** damage, had no safe approach or zoning tools, had terrible recovery, bad hitboxes, got 0-deathed by other better characters, and combinations of all of these. The problem with Brawl low tiers is that they couldn't really even fight a lot of the time because they were so overwhelmed by various bull****. So far it's safe to say that the low tiers in Smash 4 don't really have to worry about all of these things working against them at the same time. So far.

Established top level players are always going to play top tiers because every edge helps and having more options is just more fun. In a few months, Gheb will have results that confirm this bias and we'll all go on talking about how terrible Link and Samus are when the only people really using those characters are online casuals and mid-level players who probably wouldn't place much better if they were using someone else. Meanwhile all the good players will play better characters and they'll win a lot and make the rest of them look worse than they are. But that doesn't mean they're Brawl bad, the environment for them to be that level of garbage just doesn't exist anymore. So far.

 

[Shaya]

Well, Link got a lot of comparative and intrinsic buffs.

His landing lag on aerials was barely touched from brawl, if not buffed I'm pretty sure; to a game of top tier aerials having landing lag doubled, yada yada.
His jab in brawl was like 9 frames, it seems faster now.
Link was very gimpable, took the full force of every lame chain grab, had absolutely no out of shield game, his mixture of mobility/frame data disallowed optimal usages of his moveset which gave safety, and unreliable kill moves in Brawl.
He's less gimpable, there are no lame-things that turn risk/reward one-sided against him, his aerial game is faster/better, finally giving him a bit more OoS options, and eh, combos from projectile set ups are feasibly more reliable, you aren't shuffling out of up smash easily, etc etc

If you look at match ups in a design type of way (it's very easy to do in theory land / pre-tournament exposure) then I can go "yeah, link should have a great time against Mac due to links great range, mid-range zoning and weight, shouldn't be shut down by Rosalina due to outranging both, and diddy's fast and also projectile heavy, but we're fat etc etc" Link's strength in his high weight is probably going to be a deciding factor in a lot of his match ups I'd say.

Putting match up numbers to that is the silly part, because you have no true way to ascertain a character's "power level" right now.
I'm pretty sure Marth doesn't really lose to anyone in this game (with custom specials in mind) in design, likely doesn't really beat anyone either, how his actual match up numbers go could be anywhere/anything in the long term, really depends on how strong Marth's numbers actually ended up being this game, I'm not really certain yet until I get sufficient tournament experience with most characters or metagame threats.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, Link got a lot of comparative and intrinsic buffs.

His landing lag on aerials was barely touched from brawl, if not buffed I'm pretty sure; to a game of top tier aerials having landing lag doubled, yada yada.
His jab in brawl was like 9 frames, it seems faster now.
Link was very gimpable, took the full force of every lame chain grab, had absolutely no out of shield game and unreliable kill moves in Brawl.
He's less gimpable, there are no lame-things that turn risk/reward one-sided against him, his aerial game is faster/better, finally giving him a bit more OoS options, and eh, combos from projectile set ups are feasibly more reliable, you aren't shuffling out of up smash easily, etc etc

If you look at match ups in a design type of way (it's very easy to do in theory land / pre-tournament exposure) then I can go "yeah, link should have a great time against Mac due to links great range and mid-range zoning, shouldn't be shut down by Rosalina due to outranging both, and diddy's fast and also projectile heavy, but we're fat etc etc"

Putting match up numbers to that is the silly part, because you have no true way to ascertain a character's "power level" right now.

I agree with everything you said here for the record, I didn't mean to imply that this isn't the case. Link is better. He was buffed. He might do okay against some better characters, but until he receives some radical bowser-style design changes he's never going to be anything special.

But I think that's okay now more than in past games. He can be medicore Link and still make it work because as you said:

Link was very gimpable, took the full force of every lame chain grab, had absolutely no out of shield game and unreliable kill moves in Brawl.

 

[Rafitak]

How do you all feel about event hub's list?

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

The hubs tier list isn't relieable since anyone can vote. A casual could vote for matchups if they wanted to

Have u guys seen Anti's Wii Fit Trainer? It's on Nakats youtube

 

[Shaya]

Absolutely horrendous^
Dark Pit above Pit? Lucina above Marth better than all the characters we know she isn't ?

Not worth looking at just for those reasons. Its based off of match up 'charting' though, which is nice/cool.

 

[Yokoblue]

How do you all feel about event hub's list?

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

Its really ****. Anybody can vote and you just have to look at Diddy kong placement to know how much its far from reality (if you can't tell... diddy kong is MINIMUM top 3 right now)
Lucina over marth etc...

 

[Kofu]

Diddy Kong isn't top tier, his DThrow is.

Well, he probably is anyway, but his DThrow is ********.

 

[Yokoblue]

Diddy Kong isn't top tier, his DThrow is.

Well, he probably is anyway, but his DThrow is ********.

Really !?! He's obviously top tier right now. I mean look at results, combo games etc...

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Wii fit trainer is way too low. She should be mid

Ike isn't that high. He should be low or bottom imo

Diddy kong. Nuff said

Mega man is too high too

Lucina isn't better than marth and a lot of characters

That list is BS

 

[NairWizard]

Ike isn't that high. He should be low or bottom imo

This is very, very wrong, almost as wrong as the people who put Palutena in Bottom Tier when the game came out.

Ike is top tier with customs, high tier without, at the very least.

 

[Shaya]

Anyway, we all agree the list is wrong, and there isn't any reasoning provided for the lists that we can muster something positive from~

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

This is very, very wrong, almost as wrong as the people who put Palutena in Bottom Tier when the game came out.

Ike is top tier with customs, high tier without, at the very least.

Whut? Please explain. I honestly don't see how since he's easily punished and sluggish

 

[InfinityCollision]

Really !?! He's obviously top tier right now. I mean look at results, combo games etc...

Read it again.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Usually when does a tier list come out?

 

[Yokoblue]

Usually when does a tier list come out?

When some sort of consensus is done...

 

[Radical Larry]

Usually when does a tier list come out?

Normally 8 months to 1 year after the game's release, somewhere around that. It's made by those who know significant information about characters, though in all honesty, I feel that the first tier list should set an example and be done by at least two thousand people, those with moderate to heavy knowledge.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel that the first tier list should set an example and be done by at least two thousand people, those with moderate to heavy knowledge.

The first tier list is always laughably inaccurate later in a game's life span. Like Olimar being mid and R.O.B. being top for Brawl. I don't think more people would really make a difference.

 

[NairWizard]

Whut? Please explain. I honestly don't see how since he's easily punished and sluggish

Punishing Ike is more difficult than punishing any other character in the game except for Sonic/Sheik/Pikachu, and Ike's hits hurt more than most of theirs do.

His f-air autocancels at full hop height, which means you cannot punish it; if he misspaces and you try to shieldgrab he can just land right outside of your range and d-tilt you, and his d-tilt is now much faster and has always been disjointed, so you aren't going to win that little scuffle. It is very difficult to challenge an Ike who is just spacing autocanceled f-airs all over the place, because by the time you can get in past that range he's just jabbing you.

His b-air does 13-14% damage and has enough shieldstun that you can't punish it by shielding it. He can just land and turn-around to jab on you.

Maximally spaced f-tilt is very difficult to punish as well; Ike can jab right away.

Up-air is basically risk-free when you are above Ike because it is so disjointed.

Ike now has combos, like n-air to b-air or up-throw to up-air or d-tilt to n-air. And his combos do significantly more damage than other characters' combos, and he kills super early with b-air now (the knockback is ridiculous), so you'll be dying *really* quickly against Ike. He himself is decently heavy so he won't be dying nearly as early.

His problem is getting juggled and harassed when he's offstage/in the air, as well as some difficulty dealing with characters who shoot projectiles and run away like Fox, which is the reason that he's not top tier without customs. When he has customs, that all changes. Close Combat tears through projectiles like they were paper, and Aether Drive is fantastic for recovery (you can also use Aether Wave to get a projectile of your own). Tempest pops him up, giving him a landing option, and is one of the best gimping moves in the game (seriously, just charge this thing at the ledge or jump off and use it: it kills ridiculously easily, and people will have a hard time recovering high enough to avoid it because f-air covers a lot of angles).

Ike is definitely top tier with customs, top 5 in the game easily.
Top 15 (maybe 20?) without customs, though.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Absolutely horrendous^
Dark Pit above Pit? Lucina above Marth better than all the characters we know she isn't ?

Not worth looking at just for those reasons. Its based off of match up 'charting' though, which is nice/cool.

You want to know something completely horrendous. Palutena was in top 10 at one point. Back to the competitive talk. How does everyone feel about pacmans viability? I feel like he has great stage control.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You want to know something completely horrendous. Palutena was in top 10 at one point. Back to the competitive talk. How does everyone feel about pacmans viability? I feel like he has great stage control.

I haven't struggled against a Pac-Man yet, but I use She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named who can shut down the fruit, hydrant, and power pellet easily so...yeah. (This being For Glory, so obligatory skill disclaimer, stage disclaimer, and custom ban disclaimer.) Against everyone else I can easily see him being a massive pain to deal with depending on individual options for dealing with those three things.

Also you can plant his trampoline on the ground for instant stage control. It's basically like the banana or trip sapling. Never had it done to me yet but I saw a Japanese video featuring it.

On a final note, I'm curious to see if Freaky or Lazy Fruit will end up being used much.

 

[Kofu]

Some of the Lazy Fruit hangs around for a ridiculous amount of time. Pac-Man loses immediate punish power but gains significant stage control. I could definitely see it being used.

 

[NairWizard]

You want to know something completely horrendous. Palutena was in top 10 at one point. Back to the competitive talk. How does everyone feel about pacmans viability? I feel like he has great stage control.

Palutena should be top 3 with customs on imo.

 

[mimgrim]

You want to know something completely horrendous. Palutena was in top 10 at one point.

Palutena in top 10 isn't really that hard to believe imo. She still has all of her glitches from 1.0.3, benefits greatly from the Vectoring changes and got a slightly buffed Utilt and Dtilt along a slightly nerfed Usmash. Palutena potentially being in top 10 isn't really that outlandish or horrendous really.

EDIT - Presuming customs of course. Without them she becomes not as good, still a potential high end character though imo.

 

[NairWizard]

Palutena in top 10 isn't really that hard to believe imo. She still has all of her glitches from 1.0.3, benefits greatly from the Vectoring changes and got a slightly buffed Utilt and Dtilt along a slightly nerfed Usmash. Palutena potentially being in top 10 isn't really that outlandish or horrendous really.

EDIT - Presuming customs of course. Without them she becomes not as good, still a potential high end character though imo.

Isn't up-smash buffed?

 

[mimgrim]

According to the 1.0.4 patch notes thread the move now ends like 3 frames later. I've heard that Usmash might be a little bit wider but that could just be placebo. And I don't have 1.0.4 yet myself, yay ****ty internet and yay not getting Wii-U version till Christmas.

 

[NairWizard]

According to the 1.0.4 patch notes thread the move now ends like 3 frames later. I've heard that Usmash might be a little bit wider but that could just be placebo. And I don't have 1.0.4 yet myself, yay ****ty internet and yay not getting Wii-U version till Christmas.

yes, the hitbox ends 4 frames later. This means that the move was buffed, because there used to be a period of animation during which people could pass through the beam without getting hit at the end. Now you can't do that as easily.