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I'm a fan of neutral shulk too. Using speed and jump when needed. I may figure out an alt playstyle for myself, where I only use buffs when needed as short-term abilities. I get thrown off when playing shulk and altering his physics and movement properties mid-battle for long durations. I can't be as precise when I have to remember 3~ different ways of controlling Shulk. It makes controlling him difficult to make feel second nature.
Standing Fireball is bad unless you are running Fast Fireball. Default Fireball leaves Mario a bit too open to my liking. If it had a few less frames it would be better. Air Fireball you can retreat and approach with though.
When I did my list, I tried to give my characters an overall evaluation, so basically where customs were allowed but not every character necessarily used/needed them. I thought about Palutena and her incredible mobility with lightweight (that she can use over and over on a stage with platforms) and superspeed and decided she's actually a pretty good character now.
Conda
/Cobbs I actually suspect it's because for the most part we've kinda mostly sorted most of our 'top tier' out, so when those lists were made a few pages back people took issue more with lower-tiered characters.
Maybe people just adjusted to her?
They've been considering that way before 1.0.4. That patch barely changed
I apologise for placing him there, he just felt a bit worse to me than Ganon and such when I was making it, but I respect your position (I have ever since you first posted about him) and i'd be willing to move him up. Keep in mind that my 'low tier' is still usable and such, I haven't labelled them as the 'hopeless tier' and I don't plan on doing so.
Move to Japan and intentionally place poorly in tournaments with Doc imo.
Yeah, if Doc Tornado actually gives him the recovery distance he needs with a GC controller he'll be a lot better. Right now I'm annoyed by the fact that he actually has some good aerial finishers but can't really go deep to get the kill. It's my one big issue with the character.(outside of his F-Smash hitbox being smaller than Mario's) Doc also definitely doesn't qualify as a garbage character, even if he's a bit underpowered.
Most people took one look at her tilts and said "bottom tier" without ever considering the rest of her moveset.
I've seen some of coffeeblack's play and it's incredibly exciting, if a little unreliable.
I think it had more to do with people pigeonholing her as a campy character based on her defaults when that isn't her strength at all.
The AI desync problems he had before are still there, but a few people said that the AI is a little better. I do not have enough experience with 1.0.4 Oli yet to make a judgement on it.
Maybe a little but a ton honestly was just focused around the tilts. No one was even looking at her grabs, her jab, her aerials, her customs, etc. She's got a lot of good stuff.
Olimar's better. I've put 100 times as much time into my Olimar as most other characters, yet I can still pick up a Rosalina that I've played maybe 10 times total and wreck people that I struggle to take a match off of in For Glory with Olimar. Mostly when I'm playing against a Sheik or Greninja or something. That's just the way the tiers go though.
I get the feeling a lot of people still aren't aware her dash attack and bair have invincibility.
That's just a weakness Olimar has in general, unfortunately. He just has trouble with fast and mobile characters.
Straight up invincibility or just on her shield?
Straight up, full body invincibility. You can dive into the middle of four Bob-ombs or even into a Smart Bomb explosion with them (well, until the invuln runs out for the latter).
lies in relation to the rest of the cast. Bear in mind, this is mostly my impressions (I have at least tried the whole cast) and is NOT indicative of if Game & Watch beats a character or not, just if they're better than him against the rest of the cast. It's also listed alphabetically, not in order of who I think is the best.: When I first tried out Wario in Smash 4 it felt like he really wasn't changed all that much, and from what I can tell my first impression was right. He's still slippery with impressive KO power, a command grab, and a flexible recovery. Wario Waft is even better in this game thanks to the ability to speed up the recharge time by eating his own bike. It's probably not accurate, but his attacks seem quicker in general this game, too. His range is short, but when he can weave in and out like he does that's hardly a liability. He's still a top-tier contender, IMO, even if people don't fully recognize it yet.: I never thought these guys were bottom tier, but I would probably have had them as "unsure opinion" or "definitely worse" before the recent patch. Now, though, they seem a lot more solid and scary, Ike especially when customs are involved. I must confess that my experience against Ike and Shulk is limited, though, so my opinions are largely formed from others' expressing their own opinions. But it sounds like these Super Meme Bros are going to be a threat in the future.: Sorry, kid, but I'm not convinced you're top tier just yet. Your smashes are much improved from Brawl, PK Fire is safer, and they somehow managed to buff your FAir, but you still have some big weaknesses. Recovery is far and away the most apparent. Although PK Thunder now passes through opponents early on in the move, it's still blockable later on and can be intercepted by reflectors. Windboxes are even worse, because they're generally a very safe way to completely screw Ness over. Aside from that, his ground game is fairly straightforward and overly reliant on FAir for spacing. Eventually the move becomes more of a nuisance than an actual threat. His grabs always need to be respected, however.: The dot-muncher is another character that I have mixed feelings on. His ground game is solid but his air game is... a little lacking. Not bad, but not exceptional by any means. A lot of his attacks are somewhat unique and gimmicky, but that isn't necessarily bad (Game & Watch himself is a pretty gimmicky character). Bonus Fruit alone adds a lot of depth to his playstyle, not even getting into the bizarre customs for the move. One thing that might hold him back is that his specials can all be used against him in some way (or they leave him open to counterattacks).: Much like Ike and Shulk, I'm mostly placing these two here from hearsay, but to me they feel like they have a little more depth than the two swordsmen (Monado Arts notwithstanding). Good Peach players are frightening, an impression that's carried over from Brawl, where the main reason that I feel she wasn't higher was, lack of kill moves aside, she didn't have any of the stupid traits that the top tiers possessed. The more I hear about Palutena and her customs the better she sounds. I have next to no experience playing against custom Palutena, unfortunately. The GC Controller will likely aid these two tremendously.: Truth be told, Robin should probably be in the "definitely better" category, what with Thoron and the "you're not Levin until 120% if I have anything to say about it" sword. I've seen a few sad instances, though, where, reckless usage of his tomes has kinda stranded the player until they regenerate (mainly with Thunder and Arcfire). Obviously this shouldn't be an issue at high-level play, but it's something to be aware of. He has tremendous power and is one of those characters you don't want to leave to his own devices. Poor ground mobility and vulnerability to juggles are the biggest weaknesses I can see, and they're nothing to sneeze at (having used Ganon and ROB since Brawl, believe me, I know).: Pit and Pittoo are well-rounded characters. They have good range, a decent projectile, and a very effective recovery. Because they're well-rounded, however, nothing about them really stands out to me. Multiple jumps hurts their ground game a little because it prevents them from following up on airborne opponents. As good as their Up-B is for returning to the stage, you can knock them out of it fairly easily since it's very direct. Good spacing and well-timed punishes will be critical to their game. I really don't know where to place them because they seem very middle-of-the-road.: Yeah, most people think Sakurai's Subspace hero is low tier. I don't. He's probably low mid, but mid nonetheless. His multiple jumps help him escape juggles that other heavies wish they could and he's got a bunch of weird traps with Gordos. Grabbing with him is no longer the game-changer it was in Brawl, but his throws still have generally good damage and DThrow leads to nice follow-ups. IMO he's a character that you should at least be familiar with because if you don't, he'll wreck you with his hammer, body, and invincible spike balls.: Rondoudou is yet another character that I'm not buying the hype for just yet. She's much improved from Brawl, but then again, that wasn't hard. 
Additional hitstun helps her follow up on attacks, Rest actually kills now, and BAir is now a stupid kill move. BUT, much like Game & Watch, she's exceptionally light, which is compounded by her mediocre range. Her edgeguarding was hurt a little from Brawl too with the ledge trump mechanic. If she starts placing in tournaments or doing impressive things, she could be higher. I'll have to see it first.: Shaya puts him in cheese tier. The more I fight Little Mac, the more inclined I am to agree. Good Macs are scary. The Super Armor on his smashes is frustrating, KO Punch is absurd, and FTilt is such a good move it's ridiculous. I found out the other day that his down-angled FSmash has shield-breaking properties. I've even encountered a few that knew how to use his aerials to help him escape juggles. But the fact remains that his off-stage game, especially escaping gimps, is awful. If customs become more regular, life will only get harder for him since windboxes are his bane.: Mega Man has a lot of options. He seems to encourage a creative playstyle, which is cool. His reliance on projectiles may end up being his downfall, unfortunately. Wise reflector usage shuts down his long-ranged and mid-ranged games, and his close combat abilities are mostly telegraphed and generally able to be reacted to. His above average weight combined with his small frame make him pretty hard to kill, though (definitely a bonus) and he has some ******** kill moves (Mega Upper ) to complement a great grab game. I could see him moving up as more players make good use of his unique gameplay.: Long story short (after a really long post), I don't know where any of these guys should go. I've messed around with all of them a little, and while the Swordfighter feels the worst out of the three, none of them seem unusable. Gunner's long-ranged normals are frightening and the Brawler has some impressive movement options. I just wish that the defaults were usable on For Glory so we could get more accustomed to their normals, at least (most Mii specials are just variants on specials of other characters). As it is, they really just feel like a gimmick added for use for kicks and not to be a main part of the game. If anyone uses one or more of them fairly regularly, I'd love to play against you to try and see how they play so I can get a better impression of them.: Yeah, I'm crazy for lumping Kirby and Luigi in the same group, but bear with me. A lot of what I've heard Kirby mains complain about is difficulty approaching and getting in, but once they do, they can deal some solid combos and damage. Those sound like the same problems Luigi has always had to me. Personally, Luigi's scarier for what he can do with combos (it looks like his FAir got its ranged buffed this last patch WHY) and Kirby for his sheer damage and KO ability (FSmash, USmash, and Stone are quite potent). Luigi's probably better overall but both characters suffer from poor approach options.: This guy right here is likely the one I've seen the most on For Glory (not ZSS, not Little Mac). And my impression of him is: frustrating, not scary. It feels like a lot of what Wi-fi Mario mains rely on could be better reacted to without input lag. That said, Cape is a good move (and often underutilized IMO), his smashes all have deceptive range, and his throws are quite useful. His aerials are also pretty quick and good at linking together (not as good as Luigi's, but still solid). He still has a bad recovery and generally poor range (not to mention the lack of disjoints, lol) that hold him back.: I don't think he's the worst in the game, even with bad Pikmin AI and reflectable smashes (the latter is hilarious but sucks for him). I never liked fighting him in Brawl and that's carried over to Smash 4. I guess I really just need to learn how to fight him rather than complain about his playstyle, but his attributes and disjoints alone tell me he's not as bad as most people think.
Yeah, people don't realize how amazing this is until Palutena literally bairs through a juggle attempt. It's amazing. This character is probably the most underrated in the game; even putting her in High Tier is underrating her abilities with customs on.
As I understand it, if her shield hitbox clashes with another attack then she becomes immune to that attack for a certain time and her own attack continues unhindered. The only attacks that really have any chance to hit her afterwards are things like Snaring Aura Sphere, smart bombs, etc. Stuff with hitboxes that stay in the same area for a good while.
Buster's only good imo if you are confident you can outplay your opponent, as it increases damage taken as well. So it's mostly a zero sum power unless you are either in a lead or have momentum and you are certain you won't get punished.
But increasing the damage you take doesn't increase the safety on shield of your opponent's attacks, correct? The *base* attack power of the attacks coming at you doesn't go up.
buster's damage has increased only because base Shulk's damage has increased, and buster is a multiple of the base numbers
I don't understand why you wrote that much to literally say nothing.So I mentioned I'd go through the cast and list how I feel
CHARACTERS THAT ARE DEFINITELY BETTER:
CHARACTERS THAT ARE PROBABLY BETTER:
CHARACTERS THAT I DON'T HAVE A FIRM ENOUGH OPINION ON:
CHARACTERS THAT ARE WORSE:
I think that most of the characters I've listed as better need no explanation. Some of the others might, though, so I'll give them for what could be considered controversial.
Just going by the "definitely better" and "probably better" characters, that's over half the cast that would be put above Game & Watch, again, not because he's bad, but because these others are just better (even if only by a little). I'm really impressed by how close most characters feel in this game in terms of power and usefulness. From doing this, it really feels like the tier list this time will really have to be determined by individual matchups; I probably couldn't have listed the characters in the different groupings in order if I tried.
TL;DR Lots of characters in this game are usable.
