Character Competitive Impressions

[Wii Fit Bae]

Tbh I can't see wii fit trainer as low like only mid or if her meta game advances then possible on the border like of high but I can't see her as low.

 

[X3I]

Mii Fighters will be banned in tournament anyway

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Mii Fighters will be banned in tournament anyway

Why?

You can't just drop something like that and... leave...

 

[Berserker.]

Tbh I can't see wii fit trainer as low like only mid or if her meta game advances then possible on the border like of high but I can't see her as low.

I wouldn't invest much into tier discussion if I were you especially since there aren't that much WFT players in tournaments as far as I've seen. There's a reason why characters like Rosalina, Sonic and Diddy are discussed so often. That's because a lot of players use them in tourneys and win with them

 

[X3I]

Because each Mii is different, simply.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Poor Dedede, Sheik has a inescapable Fthrow into bouncing fish combo till almost 70% thanks to the removal of vertical VI

Smooth Criminal

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Because each Mii is different, simply.

But there's specific weight classes?

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

I wouldn't invest much into tier discussion if I were you especially since there aren't that much WFT players in tournaments as far as I've seen. There's a reason why characters like Rosalina, Sonic and Diddy are discussed so often. That's because a lot of players use them in tourneys and win with them

I'm really sick of the thread only being about top tiers

 

[X3I]

There's the weight, but also the height

 

[Hippieslayer]

can't you just have set standards for them which people have to follow? seems a waste not to use them if its possible to get around the issues

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Those kinda proved that wii fit trainer has no problem against diddy. Her ftilt is a problem for diddy and her dash. Projectile wise wii fit trainer outclasses him. Sun salutation can stop his bananas and they also let her camp him out. Diddy kong can't gimp her either. They both can combo each other with a throw then uair strings.

With customs she's like OP
Enriched sun makes so much stage control and its a projectile that Kills and does 20 damage. Uncharged it's huge and hovers. It's perfect for stage control. Her huge header leaves and active big ball there so she can hit it and it can fly at them. It can be like a shield so yeah. Jumbo hoops does 30% and can chases them and break shields. It's like meta knight tornado but even better. She beats him with defaults but with customs diddy gets crushed

Link doesn't beat her she's really fast and link isn't. Her speed is a problem for him and he also has a horrible recovery. Their projectiles R both good and he has a tether grab. Tether grabs have so much lag. She might not have an advantage but it's at least even for sure

Deep breathing canceling is really safe and plays mind games. She can do a melee air dodge and they might not kno what to expect.

Even if I can't persuade I still think she's mid. She's not high but she's definitely not low

How is her Ftilt and dash a problem to be more exact how are they a problem for Diddy.
If We're talking straight on. His ftilt outranges her, her foot hitbox is impractical. I dont know anything about her dash that conveys some sort f particular significance significance here. Wii Fits grab hitbox is horrendous.
Jumbo hoop *can* do 30%, it most likely wont because you'll Full hop into a D-air if you don't have a large disjoint to knock her out otherwise (hi Link).

What melee air dodge, her air dodge was nerfed.

Her speed really isn't?
Her speed isn't so fast as to make up for her range. It's similar to Kirby in that respect, poor range and insufficient speed mean lack luster approaches. However she has projectiles to make others approach. Only Link can play the zoning game as well, and a better mid-range via Z-air & bombs. Yes WFT has a strong edgeguard game, so does Kirby, how are you planning to get him off-stage when you don't even want Link to approach you, but you can't camp him.

@ ChronoPenguin Oh and hey you were right, Mii swordfighter actually has some good things going for him. His air game is pretty good and you're right about the d-throw. Chakrams are okay. It's the damage output that's a massive turn off. I'm still getting used to his down B reflector. It feels really odd for some reason. It's probably just me. Maybe I'm too used to having counter as my down B (Shulk and Marth main here)

Just trying to say Mii-S has some things going on.
The oddity is probably the visual, but It might be smaller then Marios cape.

 

[X3I]

can't you just have set standards for them which people have to follow? seems a waste not to use them if its possible to get around the issues

Too complicated to set up, imo. If we start adding rules like that...

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

What melee air dodge, her air dodge was nerfed.

If she uses deep breathing and air dodges. The momentum of the move lets her airdodge and stay still in the air.

http://youtu.be/6dhOcqXvtys

In here if u see a weird airdodge from wii fit trainer then that's deep breathing air dodge canceling

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Too complicated to set up, imo. If we start adding rules like that...

Default Miis that come with every system.

Done.

 

[Freezie KO]

Here's what I don't understand about Sakurai: He takes three insanely fast and offensive characters like Diddy Kong, ZSS, and Sheik. Speed is probably the most important thing in this game. He then gives them fantastic projectiles and reach so they don't ever have to be overly offensive, even though they have all the tools.

There's no reason that Sheik should be able to outcamp every character in this game. There's no reason Diddy should be able to outprioritize every aerial in the game. It doesn't take a game dev to see this is imbalanced. Yet here we are, and even after nerfs, Sheik is one of the best in the game.

So how don't they realize this in development? It seems pretty simple. If you're super fast, you don't get amazing zoning tools.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't understand the problem with differences in mii height and weight. It isn't a random or hidden value, all the information is right there waiting for you. It is very interesting that TPTB didn't want to ban Meta Knight but everyone wants to ban all customs because one or two are stupid and all Miis because you might have to fight a different height or weight class occasionally.

The whole thing is just absurd. There's nothing imbalanced about any of the Mii height/weights and having to account for variables determined before the start of the game is not a balance concern either, so who gives a flying ****? Who are the people who think this is a problem so severe that we need to equip the banhammer, and what exactly is their deal?

I mean, just so we're keeping score here: Brawl MK had several moves that not a single member of the cast could really handle without a read, 7-3 matchups or worse with a vast majority of the cast, absurd win and cash statistics over the course of Brawl's history, and so much more. We're talking about a character that can be described metaphorically as cancer without even beginning to employ hyperbole, and yet we're here, talking about banning Miis because they might be taller or lighter sometimes?

What the actual ****.

 

[NairWizard]

quoted the wrong post but stuff about Diddy goes in here

I don't see how Wii Fit Trainer beats Diddy. She might with customs on, but with customs on she has an even more predictable and abusable recovery than she normally does, so it's probably even at worst (Jumbo Hoop is basically horizontal recovery; Diddy can aim a f-air straight through it). WFT is tall and Diddy is short, so some of WFT's attacks go clean over Diddy's head, especially if he's crouch-approaching (WFT's crouch-approach is hilariously awful, as an irrelevant note; it's also fairly creepy haha). The thing is, Diddy builds up damage on WFT much faster than she builds up damage on Diddy, and he also gets the kill earlier unless WFT gets a read: his f-smash outranges basically everything in her kit. She doesn't have a good way to deal with the banana, either, because while she does have a projectile, it's not really a spammable one that Diddy cares about, so he can take his time and set up the banana -> peanuts and pressure her. Thanks to her generally low range, d-tilt is actually a pretty good spacing tool on her.

You say her dash attack is a problem, but most characters in the game have good dash attacks that Diddy has to watch out for. I'd be much more terrified of Yoshi's dash attack than WFT's, or even an opposing Diddy dash attack since it pops you into the air to eat some up-airs. WFT has some cool aerial juggles but it's kind of hard to juggle Diddy given his side-b and b-reverse peanut combination.

When it comes to edgeguarding, WFT's recovery is really predictable and easy to hit her out of. Diddy's is much more challenging for WFT to, well, challenge.

@ Luco : Yeah, lots of characters are good, but the top 10-15 are ironed out in my head; I'm just not completely sure which ones are top 10 and which ones are top 15 outside of the top 5. That is to say, spots 6-15 are interchangeable to some extent. I think that the final tier list is going to have 5 characters in top tier (the ones who pull above and beyond in their metagame development) and then another 15 characters in high tier due to the number of viable candidates. There should probably be about 4 tiers in this game overall.

 

[X3I]

The problem isn't the broken-ness of the Mii Fighters, you know.
If you have ever played a Street Fighter/Guilty Gear/etc... you would understand why these differences between each Miis shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The problem isn't the broken-ness of the Mii Fighters, you know.
If you have ever played a Street Fighter/Guilty Gear/etc... you would understand why these differences between each Miis shouldn't be allowed.

I play SF4 every day and in fact just finished playing. Smash isn't comparable. There are only a couple of weight classes, learn them.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The problem isn't the broken-ness of the Mii Fighters, you know.
If you have ever played a Street Fighter/Guilty Gear/etc... you would understand why these differences between each Miis shouldn't be allowed.

I'm sorry, you were talking about how GG has little to no variation between characters' attributes? And that you don't have to account for them?

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Guilty_Gear:_Accent_Core_+_R

Time to read and learn otherwise, bud.

Smooth Criminal

 

[X3I]

No, I was talking about the fact that according to the Mii's stats, some things would whiff.
That's way more than character specific combos.

BTW, you highlighted GG, but in SF there is also that kind of things, you know ?
Hugo is tall, Elena has a weird hitbox, etc...

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

It's not like the different weights/heights matter much for the Miis anyways. Small/Thin and Small/Heavy are the best combinations for them, so you wouldn't really be seeing any other combinations of them in the future unless a patch changes their stats.

Small/Thin or Small/Heavy are probably currently the best combinations you can do for Gunner/Brawler. As for Swordfighter, it would only be Small/Heavy because weight drastically affects his sword size, going from a dagger at the lightest weight to a broadsword at the heaviest weight.

The Mii boards have more detailed analysis on their stats.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No, I was talking about the fact that according to the Mii's stats, some things would whiff.
That's way more than character specific combos.

It's the same ****ing concept, dude. I shouldn't have to type up an essay as to why this exactly is the case.

Just re-read SFP's post until it sinks in.

Smooth Criminal

 

[X3I]

Then have fun learning what combos work for the billion possibilities.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Three types of Miis to pick from: Brawler, Swordsman, and Gunner.​

They come in three sizes with varying weight and speed accorded to them by their Small, Medium, and Large designations.

Each Mii type has twelve moves to pick from.

I ****ing suck at math and I know damn well that doesn't add up to a billion. It's no different than learning yet another character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's not much combos in this game to begin with so I imagine people will. (Not saying there isn't ANY but it's a lot more about followups IMO

 

[X3I]

There's not much combos in this game to begin with so I imagine people will. (Not saying there isn't ANY but it's a lot more about followups IMO

Yeah, it's a misuse of language from me, sorry.


Anyway, we'll see what happens in the future for the Mii's.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sad day

Then have fun learning what combos work for the billion possibilities.

Lol wot?
Weight ranges from 97-102. Thats a weight difference of 5. Get out of here.
Megaman vs Luigi/Villager/Mario in weight.
Lmao.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Seriously X3l, read through your own posts and then read the counter-arguments. YOU ARE WRONG.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Signia]

The issue obviously isn't that there's character specific attributes we have to learn. Other fighting games' variations on character weight and hurtboxes? We already have that!

The problem is the sheer number of subtle variations that must be learned and recognized at first glance, and the issue of time it takes to make the characters at a tournament. However, I don't think that's a very big problem. The variations are small and the metagame will select a small subset of what's possible, and we can force players to use default Mii designs to cut down on the setup time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't understand the problem with differences in mii height and weight. It isn't a random or hidden value, all the information is right there waiting for you. It is very interesting that TPTB didn't want to ban Meta Knight but everyone wants to ban all customs because one or two are stupid and all Miis because you might have to fight a different height or weight class occasionally.

The whole thing is just absurd. There's nothing imbalanced about any of the Mii height/weights and having to account for variables determined before the start of the game is not a balance concern either, so who gives a flying ****? Who are the people who think this is a problem so severe that we need to equip the banhammer, and what exactly is their deal?

I mean, just so we're keeping score here: Brawl MK had several moves that not a single member of the cast could really handle without a read, 7-3 matchups or worse with a vast majority of the cast, absurd win and cash statistics over the course of Brawl's history, and so much more. We're talking about a character that can be described metaphorically as cancer without even beginning to employ hyperbole, and yet we're here, talking about banning Miis because they might be taller or lighter sometimes?

What the actual ****.

Post of the ****ing year.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

This could be entertained if there was an actual balance issue pertaining Mii's. I have more to worry about with Peach's RNG. It's not even a matter of balance it's looking at something and saying "this *seems* complicated in theory" for something that is trivial in practice.

 

[warriorman222]

Ok, so the ruleset that bans meta Knight disbands eventually, and that's a cancerous, broken things with fast as hell moves, only one even matchups, putting toptiers like ROB to low tier simply because they can't deal with him, and briging the top tiers to top simply because they have mere 6-4 or 55-45 matchups to him in his favor. That was one of two bans i'd ever consider agreeing to in my life, yet here we are arguing over banning Miis over sizes, banning customs over the element of surprise, and letting characters like Palutena and Ganon suffer because people don't want to learn to deal with customs. If Meta Knight got through 6 years of oppression, how are customs and Miis a problem? Oh wait: element os suprise. Not knowing everything about what you're dealing with is so much worse than losing to something you know so well about that you would rather ban is like Smogon, rather than actually learn it?

Give me a break. This is nothing compared to Meta Knight. at least customs aren't broken. At least Miis aren't broken. We should allow them both, there is no good reason not to.

 

[Conda]

Sad day

Lol wot?
Weight ranges from 97-102. Thats a weight difference of 5. Get out of here.
Megaman vs Luigi/Villager/Mario in weight.
Lmao.

I agree. HOWEVER, the differences in attack range and attack speed/recovery are very different and worth standardizing, if we are going to standardize at all. If not, you literally cannot practice against what someone's Mii in a tournament would be, nor can you even choose your desired Mii at a tournament. 3/4 height a 1/4 weight? Different attack speed and range compared to a 2/4 height and 3/4 weight.

A standard range of Mii heights/weights makes more sense in every aspect of competitive play and tournament operation.

Things like weight aren't too different and don't matter. But the sliders do more than that, and they are not transparently visible. Players have to say what their Mii weight/height is or else their opponent literally will not know what their attack speed and range is, and then we get into honour system territory and that's just completely silly to have in a competitive high-level tournament.


Yeah, a short/skinny is obviously visually different to a tall/fat mii. But the in-betweens? It's hard to distinguish. There will be an optimal weight/height, or a small range of them. However, a competitive player, if allowed, can ensure their Mii cannot be practiced against by choosing an off-standard range of height and weight. This is a small advantage, but one no other character can have. And it adds no value to the game, and thus shouldn't be a thing.

An average weight/height versus a slightly lower weight and slightly taller height can't be seen during the first few moments of a match, it can be deceiving and vague to notice visually. But the opponent needs this complete info in order for the match to be fair. When you go against a Mario you know what he is capable of, but that's not the case with Miis. And that is important for practicing - the Miis being the only character you can not reliably practice against is a big deal.


I'm totally against banning Miis, but standardizing the weights is important. At tournaments, players will not be able to use the specific weight/heigh setup they want if they use something like 2/8 height and 1/8 weight - it's not like we'll be letting them go into Mii Maker.
Standardizing the Miis gives Mii players more options at tournaments than average/average, and makes things transparent and honest between players, commentators, and viewers. No more guessing. These are all GOOD things!


Either we stick to average/average as these are built-in, OR we create a handful of standard height/weight Miis on tournament setups.

Proposal 1) Wide variety of archetypes while maintaining standardization.
Short/Skinny. Short/Fat. Average/Average. Tall/Skinny. Tall/Fat.

Proposal 2) Archetype definition, and likely still enough for anyone.
Short/Skinny. Average/Average. Tall/Fat.

Either of these are the range we should have as standards, as tournament setups can create these Miis and name them accordingly. These provide enough variation without going overboard and making them impossible to realistically practice against.

These ranges cover all meaningful differences in Mii properties, from attack speed, range, mobility, jumping, and such. More than enough for Mii players to find their favourite, and not too much that players cannot realistically practice against them. We should decide on one and stick with it, and move on with the joy of Miis being legal.

This gives Miis the best chance of staying legal and played and practised against, which are all things that we should all be wanting.

 

[Luco]

Seriously X3l, read through your own posts and then read the counter-arguments. YOU ARE WRONG.

Smooth Criminal

Now something about this... I wasn't the only one to notice, right?

Anywho, customs are still legal in my region and I hope we can use them globally again. You could potentially argue for an "ideal" of balance that customs may or may not violate but to be honest, if you wanted a game so catering to that kind of thing you probably wouldn't be looking to play competitive smash anyway lol, considering its history. Also it can be argued that customs on blance the game even moreso than customs off, because most of the high tier characters just so happen to get less out of their customs than our perceived mids and lows.

And there are literally default mii's on every system, with a weight difference so small it's trivial. Mii's were intended to be a character, so we should treat them like one. It's not that hard to learn them if you look at default miis anyway.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Which is a fair point to @ Conda make, but mine is the insignificance of the sliders in competitive balance to warrant a ban.
While talking competitively.

Current Mii meta or at least for Brawler is already accepting certain heights to be the most preferred option.
If anything finding the optimal mii for general situations would be hindered by standardization though I understand the value in doing so.

 

[Conda]

Which is a fair point to @ Conda make, but mine is the insignificance of the sliders in competitive balance to warrant a ban.
While talking competitively.

Current Mii meta or at least for Brawler is already accepting certain heights to be the most preferred option.
If anything finding the optimal mii for general situations would be hindered by standardization though I understand the value in doing so.

If we hold on to "I should be able to use any slider settings I want", then we get into the territory of "well, tournament setups can't have your Mii settings in them, so as a result you can't use your Mii at a tournament."

Sticking to one of the standard Miis (Short/Skinny. Short/Fat. Average/Average. Tall/Skinny. Tall/Fat) allows you to play on any tournament setup with it, and allows other players to practice against them by having these standards on their own Wii U to practice against.

If you want sliders to be an integral part of Mii play, then that by definition makes them very tournament unviable for logistical reasons alone. And that ignores the plethora of other issues that it brings, such as lack of transparency and inability to practice against them.

Since I want Miis legalized, I have to support a standard range of height/weight options. That, or we stick to average/average since it's built-in. My solution is much more liberal without going too far.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I get the logistics of it, but If there is an optimal configuration for a Mii on a general sense though and it isn't one of the extremes it's worth allowing it to be used and become to accepted default.

Eg. a Year from now we're talking 3 notches right from Short and 5 notches left from fat give you the range to space X,Y and Z with the lag to not be punished by A,B,C on reaction, and that's taken as the optimal way to compose a mii. Why wouldn't we use that if we know it's better. Granted that allows for subjective crap.

tl;dr I get the value of standardizing a Mii, I just wouldn't want it to hold the character back if something better is found out.

 

[warriorman222]

I think that if Mii sizes are such a huge problem, middle middle, big big, and small small should be it. Upon the start of the battle you can immediately identify what they even without any knowledge about it.

 

[Conda]

I get the logistics of it, but If there is an optimal configuration for a Mii on a general sense though and it isn't one of the extremes it's worth allowing it to be used and become to accepted default.

Eg. a Year from now we're talking 3 notches right from Short and 5 notches left from fat give you the range to space X,Y and Z with the lag to not be punished by A,B,C on reaction, and that's taken as the optimal way to compose a mii. Why wouldn't we use that if we know it's better.

Waiting until then for an answer leaves Miis understandably banned or ignored until then. This is a solution for now, and likely one for the long haul as an ideal weight/height that isn't in one of the standard ranges is unlikely. If you want jump height and speed, you're going S/S. You won't want to go 1/8 short and 2/8 skinny, you're not gaining anything for that little off-standard difference.

And actually SETTING this standard in the mii-maker is impossible due to no numerical display on the sliders. Keeping things simple as "all the way to the left, in the middle/default, or all the way to the right" on each slider is integral to consistency between tournament setups.

Furthermore: Why is ideal optimal weight/height so important? If someone thinks their 2/8 height and 7/8 weight Mii is ideal and better than one of the standard ranges, so what? Dr Mario with speed equip is ideal too. Limits are limits, the differences are small enough outside of the extremes that standardization is not worth protesting.

I think that if Mii sizes are such a huge problem, middle middle, big big, and small small should be it. Upon the start of the battle you can immediately identify what they even without any knowledge about it.

This is more limiting than mine, but also much more healthy for the metagame. People may want their short/fat Mii, but if you're going with Short, you likely want speed and don't care for weight and shorter jumps. So I pretty much agree. I've added it as a proposal in my post . So let me re-post it.

----

Standardizing the Miis gives Mii players more options at tournaments than average/average, and makes things transparent and honest between players, commentators, and viewers. No more guessing. These are all GOOD things!


Either we stick to average/average as these are built-in, OR we create a handful of standard height/weight Miis on tournament setups.

Proposal 1) Wide variety of archetypes while maintaining standardization.
Short/Skinny. Short/Fat. Average/Average. Tall/Skinny. Tall/Fat.

Proposal 2) Archetype definition, and likely still enough for anyone.
Short/Skinny. Average/Average. Tall/Fat.

Either of these are the range we should have as standards, as tournament setups can create these Miis and name them accordingly. These provide enough variation without going overboard and making them impossible to realistically practice against.

These ranges cover all meaningful differences in Mii properties, from attack speed, range, mobility, jumping, and such. More than enough for Mii players to find their favourite, and not too much that players cannot realistically practice against them. We should decide on one and stick with it, and move on with the joy of Miis being legal.

This gives Miis the best chance of staying legal and played and practised against, which are all things that we should all be wanting.