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Character Competitive Impressions

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A2ZOMG

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It'd be nice to see. Keep in mind I'm taking the statement literally: "literally edgeguards everyone in this game to death"

Edit: To explain a bit more, I think Pika is great both onstage and offstage, I just don't think offstage is absolutely dominant though vs. simply strong.
In terms of options covered though, Pikachu has the most reliable ways of guaranteeing hits on every character in the game. Between super deep edgeguards enabled by his amazing recovery, and two practical projectiles that can reach common positions that actually aren't easily covered by most characters, I do believe he has the best edgeguarding in the game. Especially factoring that Quick Attack leaves Pikachu at almost no risk to be counter edgeguarded, unlike say Fire Fox.

As I stated a few pages ago, the characters with the most lethal "standard" edgeguarding are Ganondorf and Marth. As in, these characters cover basic options very well, and on a successful hit will almost certainly KO you offstage. I mean, in comparison, Pikachu might have to hit you a bunch of times before you die even if he has the tools to catch you in any position.
 
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There's hyperbole in there for sure (even though I used the word literally). Today Pikachu had to work pretty hard to get some of those edgeguards, so it's definitely not free, but I also think that we haven't seen a Pikachu with enough matchup knowledge to consistently edgeguard most of the cast. He has such a big kit for edgeguarding! B-air, d-air, n-air, f-air, thunderjolt, thunder, even up-air > stuff. Everything but skull bash (which can also edgeguard if you have the side-b 3 custom, which charges very quickly). Add to this the fact that PIkachu himself can't be edgeguarded easily at all since QA covers so many angles and is so fast, and you probably have the game's best edgeguarding--that's at least relatively dominant if not absolutely dominant.

Oh, also, fun fact: Pikachu needs to spend less time on the ledge than most characters that don't use tether recoveries I believe, so ledge trump is a very strong option for him.
But we'll have to see.
He also has less ledge invincibility relative to how long he must stay on the ledge, like tether recoveries.
 

NairWizard

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He also has less ledge invincibility relative to how long he must stay on the ledge, like tether recoveries.
This is true, though I'm not sure how much this diminishes his edgeguarding capabilities. I'm inclined toward "not at all/not very much." Characters with lingering hitboxes like Rosalina & Luma's with Launch Star Attack may be able to take advantage of this though.

Oh, yeah. It also makes him more susceptible to edgeguarding by other Pikachus.

:4pikachu: vs. :4pikachu: is a 70:30 match-up.
 

ChronoPenguin

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We're talking off-edge play but Jigglypuff isn't involved? Wtf is in her back air? Bricks.
As I stated a few pages ago, the characters with the most lethal "standard" edgeguarding are Ganondorf and Marth. As in, these characters cover basic options very well, and on a successful hit will almost certainly KO you offstage.
Jigglypuff doesn't operate in these parameters?
 
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A2ZOMG

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We're talking off-edge play but Jigglypuff isn't involved? Wtf is in her back air? Bricks.

Jigglypuff doesn't operate in these parameters with her ridic back air? F-air strings to the blast zone, horizontal pound custom off-stage being a game over.
Apologies, I keep forgetting she exists and is really strong. No logical reason for it aside from me not actually watching a lot of footage of the character.

Jiggs only problem is she doesn't cover vertical options quite as well as easily as most of the cast, but she can go deep and yeah, she hits hard.
 
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NairWizard

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On the topic of edgeguarding, let us not forget about Jump Monado Shulk, who showed us his feels moves today in the hands of @Trela (big props to this dude, btw, that Shulk/Charizard gameplay was the hypest I've ever been for smash 4).
 
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A2ZOMG

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On the topic of edgeguarding, let us not forget about Jump Monado Shulk, who showed us his feels moves today in the hands of @Trela (big props to this dude, btw, that Shulk/Charizard gameplay was the hypest I've ever been for smash 4).
Yeah like, it's funny for me because I recall not long ago how the Shulk boards were complaining Jump was useless outside of recovery, when I predicted that precisely is what made it one of his more useful arts due to edgeguard potential.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Jump,Speed and Smash all edgeguard well. Speed can follow up quickly into a gimp, Jump can go deep/high and Smash is obvious. Hell Smash is dangerous even at low %'s because of it's accelerated edgeguarding.
 
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Tagxy

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I figured pika would be pretty potent offstage. I made a post awhile back about how virtually all of his offstage options were buffed, while recoveries were nerfed (at the very least in a way that pikachu can take advantage of them). He covers a wide range of options above and below him thanks to his jolt, thunder, recovery, and good aerials. As A2Z said he cant so much consistently outright gimp most characters as just send opponents offstage multiple times.

I do think in general Diddy gets away with too much offstage even besides pika. Maybe Im wrong, but I feel like either the game hasnt reached that point yet or people are using the wrong characters.
 
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Yeah like, it's funny for me because I recall not long ago how the Shulk boards were complaining Jump was useless outside of recovery, when I predicted that precisely is what made it one of his more useful arts due to edgeguard potential.
Oh my. Yeah, I remember that exact post.
Jump,Speed and Smash all edgeguard well. Speed can follow up quickly into a gimp, Jump can go deep/high and Smash is obvious. Hell Smash is dangerous even at low %'s because of it's accelerated edgeguarding.
KO'ing at around ~85% while edgeguarding with smash lol
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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I keep thinking Kirby is underrated. But I can't figure out why, I really just think he is solid about as much as Brawl if not more so here in Smash 4.
 

Z'zgashi

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Kirby is lowish imo if only for the fact that everyone else is slightly better.
 

ecaflip

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After some more playing around with Meta Knight, I think he might have some potential.
Sure his wings are clipped and his blade is dulled, but his cape and lagless grabs make him a pseudo tele-grappler. I really don't think people are utilizing his ground game to it's fullest. MK isn't the same as he was in brawl, but everyone is playing his as a bait and punish character while a more aggresive playstyle can still fit him.
 

Starfall11

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On the topic of edgeguarding, let us not forget about Jump Monado Shulk, who showed us his feels moves today in the hands of @Trela (big props to this dude, btw, that Shulk/Charizard gameplay was the hypest I've ever been for smash 4).
I think with the WiiU version out, and the numerous buffs to Shulk. I would place him Upper-mid tier at lowest. Most likely he's on the low end of high tier. Possibly around spots 9-11. He's way too good to ignore now. His tilts and aerial attacks have insane range and come out relatively quick. He can KO very early now that vectoring is gone, and his arts give him an answer to any MU. Speed and Jump give him the best mobility in the game, which is so important in Smash. Simply Nair > Jab combo does massive damage now in Buster with all his percent buffs.
 

Signia

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I know this has been said before but Smash Shulk's counter is silly. Dying to a Smash Shulk that's at 70% as a Marth that's at 40% for doing a fair at center stage is a little ridiculous.


About edgeguarding, I still think the future is ledge trump mixups. Characters that have no hitbox on the way up on their up-B have no great way of stopping someone from just waiting on the edge, timing the trump, and then getting a guaranteed attack. Characters that do have an attack, like Shulk, Marth, and Ike, can put a hitbox by the edge make the timing harder. If you don't trump early enough, they can do a ledge option to avoid getting trumped, and up-Bs that cover the edge force you to stand too far away to get a guaranteed trump.

Another potential counterplay is to hold down to delay your ledge grab (holding down causes you to not be able to grab the ledge). The ledge-snapping feature causes you to grab the ledge a lot earlier than you normally would, so if you hold down and sweetspot the old fashioned way and then release down, the timing will be different, and ledge trumps timed to trump the normal timing will result in a reversal -- they'll get ledge trumped instead.

So the mixup for hitbox-less up-Bs is:
Normal Up-B - loses to ledge trump, beats drop-zone aerial
Up-B-down - beats ledge trump, loses to drop-zone aerial

And once that mixup becomes played out no one will attempt it because it's too risky and there's no reason to risk giving up your advantage in mixup that's almost as dangerous for you as it is your opponent. Full circle, let's make it happen people!

I mention the hitbox-less up-Bs because many of the top tiers have them, and this could be a good way to beat them. Or get yourself killed. Yeah
 

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@ Luco Luco
The thing with Ness is that I'm just confused as to where all the talk that he was top tier came from. He's a solid character, for sure, but for the most part he feels unchanged from Brawl to me. I used him in Brawl as a secondary because I found his playstyle really fun.) That's not necessarily a bad thing; IMO Brawl Ness was a reasonably solid character who just got shafted through grab release infinites. With those gone I would expect him to move up but not to top tier.

I bring up his recovery because it's his most obvious weakness, but that's a given when he takes about a second to actually move back toward the stage and a critical part of that recovery is a projectile that can be intercepted or reflected. His excellent second jump (I'd say it's the best in the game) helps him a little, but if he's forced away from the stage without it he's in a bad state.

His aerials are mostly unchanged from Brawl, although his BAir has a little less power and his DAir is a lot less consistent. FAir continues to form the crux of his game due to its great range and priority. The fact that it drags the opponent along for the ride now makes it even better. I think it tends to be a little overrated though. If he trades with someone else while using it he's more likely to be put in a bad position and take more damage because, aside from not dealing that much damage in the first place, FAir is multi-hit and each hit is quite weak.

PK Fire is a really good tool but it's so much more commitment than Robin's Arcfire or the Mii Gunner's Flame Pillar because it doesn't automatically activate when hitting the ground. It does trigger on contact with hitboxes, though, so that's something. While it has less lag than Brawl, it's still not something you want to be using from neutral or to approach because it's so easy to shield or avoid. That said, if it connects on the ground, you can usually get a free grab. FSmash if you're close enough. It's pretty sweet off-stage, though, because it sinks. I'll give it that. (Do Flame Pillar/Arcfire sink?)

His tilts are fast but pretty short-ranged. His grab game is amazing, especially with that insane BThrow. It honestly feels even stronger in this game than in Brawl, but it's probably partially due to rage buffing its power when Ness gets to higher percents. His Smashes are buffed from Brawl, from what I can tell. I could be wrong on this, but it seemed like his FSmash was somehow both weaker and slower than Lucas's, despite Ness using a bat and Lucas using a stick. Anyway, USmash has more power and DSmash is good at poking shields. His Dash Attack has great range (especially the last hit) and I've been able to use it to surprise people with its reach. It's punishable on shield, though, like most Dash Attacks are.

I really like the power his UAir has and the speed of his NAir. Ness's strength seems to lie in linking aerials together, but this game seems to have more of a focus on ground combat. Ness still does well there, but it's not his forte.

I've seen a lot more Ness users online than I thought I would. I don't remember that many people liking him previously. I assume some of the userbase comes from people losing Lucas and switching to the closest thing. :p

Basically I see Ness as a solid character but don't know where the hype for him came from, unless people really didn't know his BThrow could kill at silly percents. That's the main feature he has that's unusual and makes him stand out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Well after spending the vast majority of my day at a tournament (and winning!!! :DDDD), I think I can discuss this with you a little better.

@ Shaya Shaya and I versed each other during winner's finals and I think the biggest thing he mentioned that i'm beginning to agree with is that the numbers stack in Ness' favour much of the time. I was at 140% or so in one of our matches on my last stock and his Falco was at 80%, I grabbed him from near the middle of omega ferox and almost killed him from the Bthrow alone. Ness' tools seem a bit linear but they are heavily safe. It feels like my Nair is almost unpunishable and the risk vs. reward is heavily in Ness' favour much of the time (also quoted roughly from Shaya). Add to this a very solid combo game made better by the removal of vectoring and you can kinda see why Ness has an inherent advantage much of the time. His edge-guarding game is really potent too; he doesn't just limits options offstage by throwing out projectiles the person has to work around, the control PKT gives him means much of the time his offstage harass will net him percentage. And although PK Fire certainly can be punished, it's hard to punish it in a way that makes it an incredibly bad move, and Ness seems to get along alright without it regardless.

Something also to keep in mind is that whilst PKT is certainly fragile (something I already went into so I won't bore ya :p), it's also very powerful. In one of my games versus Shaya I PKT2-ed back to the stage and he countered it as Marth but because of early invincibility frames I went straight through it. On another occasion I killed him with it. Windboxes are a pain though, and along with things like void reflector, pocket, GP etc could be the bane of Ness' recovery.

It's totally legit to argue he isn't top 5; but i'm inclined to agree that his tools are very powerful and warrant him potentially being in that tier.
 

A2ZOMG

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After some more playing around with Meta Knight, I think he might have some potential.
Sure his wings are clipped and his blade is dulled, but his cape and lagless grabs make him a pseudo tele-grappler. I really don't think people are utilizing his ground game to it's fullest. MK isn't the same as he was in brawl, but everyone is playing his as a bait and punish character while a more aggresive playstyle can still fit him.
Personally me, I refuse to acknowledge the character as bad when D-throw -> Tornado can do like 30%. Not guaranteed on most of the cast, but easy to set up through basic land trapping.

Not to mention Down-B is a near-free escape from most traps.
 

Z'zgashi

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Also, MK's dthrow > uair > uair > up b true combos if you read the DI after dthrow and kills off the top if used from the top platform of BF if theyre around 40-70% on every character (obviously the percentage range changes based on the character). It's usually roughly a 20-25 percentage range it works at, maybe more.

Not a common situation but good to know when playing as/against MK nonetheless.
 
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ecaflip

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I'll keep that in mind if I see an opening. I love the satisfaction of uair juggling into shuttle loop star KO. I just imagine the Marvel vs Capcom 2 character selection theme running through my head whenever I pull it off. I wanna take you for a ride~
 
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Freezie KO

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I can't see this atm, the character might have some mobility issues and camping though character specific, but he excels at making plays at mid range and at close range.
Dair has some potent gimp ability, but the meta is going to develop around fast, unpunishable characters. Kirby is going to feel those mobility problems.
 

Shaya

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Fighting Ness feels like fighting Brawl Ice Climbers,
almost.

It's like

"how do you kill this floaty probably 2 frame nair ******"
Gotta work on finishing him off, maybe less Ice Climbers and more Lucario-ish? Kill throws scaling with rage just, ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I think if a character can just rely on playing safe until a dash grab opportunity comes along, disgusting.
Forces you to play so differently, and Ness has all the tools to mess you up for trying to avoid grabs and is very hard to approach.

Either way, I already put this character in top 4 since patch 1.0.4. Probably just teetering on as strong as you'd want a character I guess, probably struggles in enough match ups. Over time weaknesses can be learned to be abused (recovery, maybe good shuffling/sdi).
 
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Emblem Lord

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Slight increase in recovery
2% less damage
Slight increase in start up

Yah?
 
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ChronoPenguin

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I can't see this atm, the character might have some mobility issues and camping though character specific, but he excels at making plays at mid range and at close range.
My response about Kirby remains the same. Strong cqc crippled by bad approach options.
Default inhale is a poor move as well. Rather difficult to get relevant copy moves with the poor approach and inhale not getting through shield. Jumping inhale remedies this to a degree but custom games aren't the norm on Wii u.
Upper cutter and wave cutter also bring great.

He may not be that good comparatively which will result in low ranking.
 

Nobie

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I increasingly think of Kirby as a pink, stubby Ganondorf.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Ganon isn't even that bad. Not the worst character in any case.

If you wanna make janky comparisons with the game's worst character then the name you should be typing is "Doctor Mario".

:059:
 

KlefkiHolder

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Doc isnt that bad with customs on...

Customs are needed to make some characters viable right now it seems, and whether or not they'll be able to be used remains up in the air. I know that Keitaro expressed some doubt (here), and its all logistical issues it seems. Customs really add a lot to the game, so it'll be a shame if we can't use them at bigger tournaments.

Just look at Ganon, Ike, and some others and how huge customs can be becomes evident. They bring more diversity in not only movesets, but also characters.
 
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Nobie

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Ganon isn't even that bad. Not the worst character in any case.

If you wanna make janky comparisons with the game's worst character then the name you should be typing is "Doctor Mario".

:059:
It was more in the sense that both characters feel like serious threats when they get in close but have trouble approaching for somewhat different reasons. Kirby doesn't hit nearly as hard as Ganondorf, but he KOs surprisingly early for a character so light and floaty.
 

Kofu

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Well after spending the vast majority of my day at a tournament (and winning!!! :DDDD), I think I can discuss this with you a little better.

@ Shaya Shaya and I versed each other during winner's finals and I think the biggest thing he mentioned that i'm beginning to agree with is that the numbers stack in Ness' favour much of the time. I was at 140% or so in one of our matches on my last stock and his Falco was at 80%, I grabbed him from near the middle of omega ferox and almost killed him from the Bthrow alone. Ness' tools seem a bit linear but they are heavily safe. It feels like my Nair is almost unpunishable and the risk vs. reward is heavily in Ness' favour much of the time (also quoted roughly from Shaya). Add to this a very solid combo game made better by the removal of vectoring and you can kinda see why Ness has an inherent advantage much of the time. His edge-guarding game is really potent too; he doesn't just limits options offstage by throwing out projectiles the person has to work around, the control PKT gives him means much of the time his offstage harass will net him percentage. And although PK Fire certainly can be punished, it's hard to punish it in a way that makes it an incredibly bad move, and Ness seems to get along alright without it regardless.

Something also to keep in mind is that whilst PKT is certainly fragile (something I already went into so I won't bore ya :p), it's also very powerful. In one of my games versus Shaya I PKT2-ed back to the stage and he countered it as Marth but because of early invincibility frames I went straight through it. On another occasion I killed him with it. Windboxes are a pain though, and along with things like void reflector, pocket, GP etc could be the bane of Ness' recovery.

It's totally legit to argue he isn't top 5; but i'm inclined to agree that his tools are very powerful and warrant him potentially being in that tier.
I can respect that. For what it's worth with NAir, I thought the move was better than FAir in Brawl and used it heavily. FAir had good range but you were lucky to get two hits off it; now if it connects it actually deals damage. Would you say the reason a lot of his aerials are safe is because of his second jump? It feels that way to me. Also to address Shaya's post, BThrow is definitely scary and it is pretty silly how one dash grab (and Ness has a good one!) can lead to your death.

Good point on PKT2 though, it's not a move to be trifled with. If your percent is low enough you can intercept it to deny Ness's recovery sometimes but you take hefty damage. If you're feeling really ballsy you can jump into it even at KO percentages and try and tech against the stage. I wouldn't recommend it though.

Maybe I'll just have to play you to get a better idea of a good Ness's play style. Most of my experience is from For Glory where very few have given me trouble (an indicator of player skill more than character prowess). That also excludes experience on non-FD stages, which changes Ness's game (but makes his aerial game more powerful).
 

TTTTTsd

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For the record I disagree with any notion of Doc being the absolute worst in the game, but I know that he is bottom 10, bottom 15 at best.

Ness is pretty damn good, yes. I could see him being in the high tiers, top I'm not sure of, but high for sure. He's a really solid character and I can base this off of numerous things, like Nakat's performances. PKT2 is also SCARY to edgeguard in this game only because I choke a lot LOL.

Also I'd like people to look into stuff like this more. (This was found in the Doc Game Play thread on his character boards)
 
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~ Gheb ~

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So with the Wii U version hitting the streets and 3 major tournaments having happened this weekend I think it'd be interesting to summarize character performance since the release of the 3DS version:


Won more than 1 major / super-stacked tournament: :4zss: :4diddy:
Won 1 major / super-stacked tourney + various top placings: :rosalina: :4sheik: :4greninja:
Place very high consistently with multiple players: :4fox: :4ness:
Place very high consistently with one or two players: :4lucario: :4yoshi: :4sonic: :4pacman: :4pikachu:
Place moderately well with a few players consistently: :4megaman: :4littlemac: :4robinf: (:4darkpit:/:4pit:)


-> all based on offline tournaments

:059:
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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So with the Wii U version hitting the streets and 3 major tournaments having happened this weekend I think it'd be interesting to summarize character performance since the release of the 3DS version:


Won more than 1 major / super-stacked tournament: :4zss: :4diddy:
Won 1 major / super-stacked tourney + various top placings: :rosalina: :4sheik: :4greninja:
Place very high consistently with multiple players: :4fox: :4ness:
Place very high consistently with one or two players: :4lucario: :4yoshi: :4sonic: :4pacman: :4pikachu:
Place moderately well with a few players consistently: :4littlemac: :4robinf: (:4darkpit:/:4pit:)


-> all based on offline tournaments

:059:
interesting.

Pikachu is the only one on here I thought was a surprise though.
 

KlefkiHolder

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Zucco and Chillin both did well at KTAR yesterday with :4megaman:, which I think is worth noting.

I believe Zucco placed 4th? He put M2K in losers, took Dabuz to Game 3, and took M2K to game 3 in losers.

Very impressive performance.
 

LiteralGrill

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Well a few things I'm getting with more and more play with Olimar.

1. Some characters just plain shut him DOWN. If you have strong range and/or decent speed Olimar can do nothing but slowly throw things at you and hope to land a lucky kill. Unfortunately that means most anyone with a sword... And anyone with speed... He's bad against the top tiers. Joy!

2. He can punish it's true. But one mistake and he's just SO slow you'll eat a big hit. Once the opponent gets in on you have only your jab and uptilt to try and save yourself (f-tilt too slow) and the range on jab is kinda small, and if you miss the uptilt? Another punish.

3. He has a great grab game. If you can actually get the grab you can do lots of combos off of every grab if you can read well and get creative. He can even kill with upthrow with a blue pikmin at decent percents depending on weight.

Overall this guy isn't gonna be amazing. Maybe it's just online lag but man he seems just THAT slow enough to not be able to deal once someone gets in and seems honestly super predictable. He lack enough disjoints to get through a ton as well so when he needs the kill he's going to get predictable. I don't think he's got a shot minus the very low tiers, bottom 10 probably tops.
 

Psyant

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Psyant
Will got pretty far with DK too. Honestly, character viability is looking pretty good at this point.
 
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